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Author Topic: composite F1N  (Read 4946 times)
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czech_f1n
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« on: December 07, 2011, 02:37:43 PM »

Hi everyone,

my name is Michal Michna and with me friend Jiri Tuma (JITOM) we build F1N hand launch gliders with using carbon, glass, rohacell and other modern materials. Our models have wingspan from 600 to 700 milimeters. Whole wings are made from composite materials. We make them now with weight from 7,5 gramms (12 to 16 gramms for whole model, is cca 2g/dm2). Most recently flight time is 35 seconds from cca 7 meters (cca 10 meters circle radius). Maximum flight time hold Jiri from cca 12-13 meters - 44 seconds. We don't have access to higher hall, but models definetly can reach higher levels (we often crash into roof).

https://picasaweb.google.com/113218351121318959993/RazorF1N?authkey=Gv1sRgCLOx6IKUupeTsAE
https://picasaweb.google.com/113218351121318959993/JiriF1N?authkey=Gv1sRgCM7P5qDstozPvgE

We looking for best possible airfoil for our models, to improve flighttime (see url above).

Best Regards
Michal and Jiri

P.S. excuse my english :-)
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
composite F1N
composite F1N
composite F1N
composite F1N
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Hepcat
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 04:08:46 PM »

Michal and Jiri
Your gliders are beautiful.
Your English is excellent.
Sorry but my Czech is non-existent.
Welcome to the forum.
John
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Maxout
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 04:59:48 PM »

Those are beautiful gliders. Please tell us more!
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Olbill
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 10:16:07 PM »

I really like the shock absorber on the Razor!
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »

I really like the shock absorber on the Razor!

It was long development. First time was spring from pen and lately followed by 3M safety earplug. In this combinations work great, small shock are absorbed by earplug. For bigger hit is better the spring.

Safety earplug is also considered safer in crowded spaces on most our competitions (nobody want hit someone eye) .
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Re: composite F1N
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 01:23:45 PM »

Those are beautiful gliders. Please tell us more!

So Jiri use rohacell and I use XPS (30g/dm3) for wing core. On skin of the wing we use glass 24,5g/m2 or 17g/m2 in my case. Epoxid resin is use L285. For bi-directional carbon reinforcement is use 68g/m2 carbon fabric, for uni-directional reinforcement is use 80g/m2 rowing, both prefabricated. On leaging edge of wing I use carbon pultrusion rod 0,6mm. For flap Jiri use 68g/m2 carbon fabric and for smaller reinforcement we use single rowings from 68g/m2 carbon fabric.

Wing pylon on "Razor F1N" is made from 68g/m2 carbon fabric and core is from XPS same as wing. Last item is fuselage from sanded pultrusion carbon tube - 3-1,8mm.

Weights of the parts for Razor are:

Wing core from 30g/dm3: from 3,3g to 3,8g (depends on thick of material)
Carbon pultrusion rod 0,6m on leading edge: from 0,2g to 0,3g (depends on length)
Bi-directional carbon center wing triangles: 0,3g  (four of them)
Uni-directional carbon beam: 0,3g (four of them)
Final wing: from 7,5g to 8,2g (depend on amount of resin)
Wing pylon: 0,2g
Tailplanes: 0,35g
Fuselage: cca 2g
Total weight: cca 12,4g
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
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Tmat
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 03:23:30 PM »

Michal,
Very nice gliders!
May I ask where you are buying 68g/m2 carbon fabric?
Is it German carbon? F&G maybe?

Tony
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F1B guy...
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dosco
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 07:43:37 PM »

Yes, nice gliders.

How did you fabricate the cores?
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 04:49:11 PM »

Yes, nice gliders.

How did you fabricate the cores?

Core from Rohacell is hand sanded (Jiri) and for XPS I use hot wire for cutting and after that is also hand sanded. These models are still prototypes. Core is bend using improvise templates during vacuum in the bag.

 I and Jiri hope, that someone helps us suggest right airfoil for ours models.
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 02:29:17 PM »

Hi everyone, we accomplish new results with ours gliders.

http://vimeo.com/36205529
http://vimeo.com/35904204
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Olbill
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 05:32:32 PM »


 I and Jiri hope, that someone helps us suggest right airfoil for ours models.


No one has answered about the best airfoil because no one knows what the best airfoil is!

The Razor 2 looks very, very nice. It flies like it's much lighter than it really is. Are you still using a carbon tube for the fuselage? If so you could probably cut some more weight by going to balsa with carbon rod reinforcing. For comparison my Slow Poker (catapult) fuselage including the tail and ballast weighs 2.2g.
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 03:53:32 PM »

Hi, now I use fuselage with hybrid construction: rohacell core with carbon outside plating and kevlar banding. Some picture may I send later on weekend. Fuselage weight is now about cca 2,4g with balast and tail for 710mm length (230mm is length from CG to nose).

We make some modification to cut weight down. Now is possible make a complete wing with wing pylon for 5,8g (6,3sq dm, 680mm wingspan, cca 3mm thick on wing spar at the center).
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2012, 04:09:32 PM »

New flight on video 49,7 sec. Best flight on competition was 50,2 sec.

https://vimeo.com/55799128
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Olbill
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »

Wow!!

That is an amazing airplane and an amazing flight. It's a very pretty model as well.
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ptlove
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2012, 03:13:16 AM »

Very nice glider and flight Michal.   It is great to see your experiments with composite materials.   It seems to fly very slow for the weight.   I wish you best of luck with it and keep us posted.

Paul
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Wout Moerman
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2012, 08:18:52 AM »

Impressive! I will show this thread to my club members, I think some will be inspired!
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albisko
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2013, 08:39:22 AM »

hi,
I back with F1N category  Smiley
this is my brotherĀ“s attempt with XPS and carbon paper.
root chord 110mm to 80mm to the tip, long 370mm (half) , 3,9grams weight (half)
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Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
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dosco
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2013, 09:25:18 AM »

New flight on video 49,7 sec. Best flight on competition was 50,2 sec.

https://vimeo.com/55799128

Very impressive flight. Thank you for sharing!
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 04:52:29 PM »

hi,
I back with F1N category  Smiley
this is my brotherĀ“s attempt with XPS and carbon paper.
root chord 110mm to 80mm to the tip, long 370mm (half) , 3,9grams weight (half)
that looks very nice, carbon paper....hmm, hard find some for me. I preparing new generation of Razor 2 glider. Details and photos will be soon and i look forward for "clash" Smiley in Krosno competition. My new light model have flight weight around 8g (parameters almost same as old Razor 2). Some photos are here: http://ruleta.rajce.idnes.cz/Vyroba_modelu_kat._F1N_Razor_2_Evo_u_Michala_v_lednu_2013./
Last wing with diagonal carbon is pretty much concrete strength and with only 10g weight. Total model weight will be cca 12,5-13g , possibly ideal for 14,5m ceiling in Krosno.
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dosco
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2013, 05:07:14 PM »

that looks very nice, carbon paper....hmm, hard find some for me.

Is that the non-directional stuff also known as "veil" ...? I thought that stuff wasn't so great because it didn't add strength in any direction, and soaked up epoxy like a sponge.

Quote
I preparing new generation of Razor 2 glider. Details and photos will be soon .

I would bet that many are interested ...

Smiley

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Olbill
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2013, 08:25:15 PM »

My new light model have flight weight around 8g (parameters almost same as old Razor 2). Some photos are here: http://ruleta.rajce.idnes.cz/Vyroba_modelu_kat._F1N_Razor_2_Evo_u_Michala_v_lednu_2013./

Are you making those models to sell? That is a very impressive stack of foam cores! I like the airfoil in the 7th picture. Here are a couple of similar ones.
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Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
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duration
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2013, 08:42:10 PM »

Really enjoyed the "production line" photos.  How do you do the carbon fiber "lattice" on wing?  I've seen some similar "disser" construction used for F3K discuss-launch gliders on RC Groups--handlaunch glider forum.  The RC folks weave carbon tow on frame with small nails around the edge to make the lattice, then spray with contact adhesive and attach to light glass cloth. This is wetted out with epoxy, folded around bottom and top of wing (carbon fiber continues around leading edge), and then vacuum bagged. Is your process similar?

Louis
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 07:44:45 PM »

Are you making those models to sell?
Some of them, if someone wants it Smiley. Most of them are for me and my friends. One of my friend (one that take the pictures in gallery http://ruleta.rajce.idnes.cz/Cislo_0009_zije_aneb_hazedlo_kat._F1N_Razor_2_Evo_je_pripravene_k_letani./) build model almost completely by himself under my supervision Smiley

That is a very impressive stack of foam cores!
For cut wing cores i use "semi-automatic" arm cutter using gravity force. Arm cutter setup take some time. More cores = less average time for cut per core. In this case, almost no time at all and all cores are same.

I like the airfoil in the 7th picture. Here are a couple of similar ones.
In fact, airfoil with black background was originaly take as template airfoil almost 2 years ago. Since then i make some modification and simulation in XFLR program. Now I have third generation of this modified airfoil.
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czech_f1n
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 03:17:23 AM »

Really enjoyed the "production line" photos.  How do you do the carbon fiber "lattice" on wing?  I've seen some similar "disser" construction used for F3K discuss-launch gliders on RC Groups--handlaunch glider forum.  The RC folks weave carbon tow on frame with small nails around the edge to make the lattice, then spray with contact adhesive and attach to light glass cloth. This is wetted out with epoxy, folded around bottom and top of wing (carbon fiber continues around leading edge), and then vacuum bagged. Is your process similar?
For carbon "lattice" i use very simple technique. Just wet the carbon fibre, placing it by hand and then cut it. On leading edge is two layers of glass and carbon is between them. Finally i use bald roller and kitchen tissue for dry excessive epoxy. Weight of the wing was bit higher because epoxy was processed almost 90 minutes, because that its not possible dry off excessive epoxy effectively.
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2013, 10:36:25 AM »

hi
This is my new F1N Black Mamba Smiley .Model flew first time before contest in Krosno only 12hour! Best time in contest 42,6seconds. This model have big potencial for next time. Span 720mm and flying weight 11.7grams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8L_qeL-gDw&feature=youtu.be
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Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
Re: composite F1N
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