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Author Topic: Cat 3 F1N World Record  (Read 8002 times)
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Olbill
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« on: October 12, 2009, 11:53:04 AM »

I haven't seen any mention of this on HPA so far. It's an amazing accomplishment!

Claim number : 15619
Sub-class :F1N (Free Flight)
Category: Indoor Glider
Type of record : 118-c: Duration (ceiling 15m - 30m)
Course/location : Shiga (Japan)
Performance : 1 min 32.2 sec
Pilot : Mitsuru ISHII (Japan)
Date :01.10.2009
Current record : 1 min 18.8 sec (01.10.2005 - Akihiro DANJO, Japan)

Here's a video of one of his flights that was almost as good:
http://www.jmaf.jp/ishii.wmv

There was also an F1M record set the same day by Aki. I'll put that one in the F1M section.
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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 02:53:11 PM »

STUNNING!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Olbill
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 05:34:21 PM »

For real!

For years the Holy Grail for indoor hand launch has been 90 seconds in Cat 4. Now Ishi has done it in Cat 3.
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Maxout
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 10:21:44 PM »

I do think it's time we saw an F1N record come to the US. Is it just me, or is there no real interest in F1N 'round here?

I should of course note that this is a really impressive performance. Ishii's model takes the class to a whole new level, and it's not hard to see why he is the well deserving holder of two world records in HLG.
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Tmat
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 12:57:57 AM »

Joshua, there is quite an interest in FAI records in the US. I know that Stan B. and Tim Batiuk and Jim Buxton have spent quite a bit of time and effort to try and get there. One problem is the lack of suitable flying sites that can allow a record attempt. The other is that FAI rules don't specify a size limit, whilst AMA rules limit gliders to 100 sqr/in. Thus F1N models cannot be flown in AMA competitions.

I think it will happen (an American F1N record) but the flying site issue needs to be resolved.

Tony
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RussLister
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 05:49:21 AM »

Of course, I have made many flights like this myself... though I always seem to wake up shortly afterwards. Roll Eyes

Seriously though, I wouldn't even dare to dream of a flight like that!

Does that model feature some kind of 'morphing' flying surfaces? It seemed to fly slower as time went on.
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Olbill
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 01:21:36 PM »

Does that model feature some kind of 'morphing' flying surfaces? It seemed to fly slower as time went on.

I noticed that also. It could be that it just took that long to settle into the best glide or that the air was more buoyant closer to the floor. I think the most interesting thing about the video is Ishi's launch. Besides the fact that he didn't use a full spin, the launch looked almost effortless. Can you imagine how high Stan or Tim or Jim Buxton could throw that glider? (if it held together)

I can imagine 2 minutes being possible at a site like Lakehurst - and maybe not too far in the future.
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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 02:14:28 PM »

I can imagine 2 minutes being possible at a site like Lakehurst - and maybe not too far in the future.

It looked to me like the transition left a lot to be desired. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but it looked like it dropped 15-20 feet at the top. At that sink rate he might get 2 minutes in that site with a Buxton Flop.
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JetPlaneFlyer
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 04:43:34 PM »

I think that the apparent loss of height at transition was at least partly an illusion due to the model flying away from camera.

As for launch height.. According to the opening post that was a Cat 3 venue, so <30m ceiling height (looked like higher to me but if the record was set i assume the height is verified). I assume he reserves the full blood launches for higher ceiling venues. His Cat 4 record is (or was) 1 min 42, so he's obviously getting more height where the venue allows. I'd be inclined to give the guy credit in that if he keeps breaking world records neither his launch or his transition can be that much worse than Stans, Tims, Jims, or anyone elses come to that.

Anyone notice the tail.. he's still not using a 'Y' and he's still setting world records.

Russ, there is nothing unusual about the flying surfaces. Construction of his gliders is entirely conventional. There is a plan of his Cat 4 record holder over on AMA Gliders: http://www.schnable.net/hosted/amaglider/assets/indoor-gliders/handlaunch-gliders/pdf/faif1n.pdf

Steve
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Maxout
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 06:27:42 PM »

My commentary...
Watch his launch video on Youtube. The model makes audible noise for at least half of the climb. The launch velocity is much higher than you might think. Another item to consider is that his wing is asymetrical and uses a much different airfoil from most of the US models. Aki's description of the video we have posted here is that it was a less than perfect flight. Can't remember if he mentioned the transition being off or not.

Surely someone can make 2 minutes, but based on my impression of this airplane and the time spent in creating it, 2 minutes will be very difficult.

I would think Stan could be on par with the record holders bearing his extensive experience with indoor HLG, but until we start seeing F1N at USIC and other major events, neither Stan nor anyone else is likely to make a really serious jab at it.

There are F1N contests in Europe, and their low ceiling gliders look very impressive. I found a forum somewhere that showed numerous photos, and the models looked comparable to US low ceiling flappers, just noticeably bigger.
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Olbill
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 09:15:46 PM »


Russ, there is nothing unusual about the flying surfaces. Construction of his gliders is entirely conventional. There is a plan of his Cat 4 record holder over on AMA Gliders: http://www.schnable.net/hosted/amaglider/assets/indoor-gliders/handlaunch-gliders/pdf/faif1n.pdf

Steve

There is one little unusual detail - 2 panels on one side of the wing and 3 on the other. I'm not sure what the theory is behind this design but it looks the same as the one he did the Cat 4 record with - and it obviously works.

As far as the Y tail goes - I'm convinced that everyone uses it because it works and the basic setup to make it work is pretty well known by now. When more people get into experimental mode I think we will see other tail layouts being used.
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JonSayre
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 08:21:51 PM »

Thanks for posting the info and video!

I am pretty sure the glider is not flopping out at the top, it does seem to do a dip right after transition. The the speed slows down noticeably during the right turn initiation, leading me to believe it is dipping. His designs are heavier than the current AMA designs, which may be why he does not need an enormous throw to get to the top. I still want to believe that two minutes is achievable within the AMA guidelines. I am really impressed by him, his design, and his performance. It would be great if we could get him to join here and start posting!

I wonder how often they are able to fly in sites like that in Japan? Still setting records with a cruciform tail? HMMMMM!
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Kit
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 02:00:40 PM »

The wing section on this glider is really interesting. Forward of the highpoint the convex curvature on the bottom appears to be greater than that on the top.

Anyone have any insights on this airfoil?

Kit
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Cat 3 F1N World Record
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Olbill
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 02:16:22 PM »

I am pretty sure the glider is not flopping out at the top, it does seem to do a dip right after transition. The the speed slows down noticeably during the right turn initiation, leading me to believe it is dipping.

Jon

You have to keep in mind that this was not the record flight so it might have some imperfections. Even Stan, Tim and Jim don't hit it perfect every time. For that matter the record flight may not have been perfect either. I'm way behind the curve in tip launch gliders but I have to believe that the reason most people use Y-tails is because the problems have been pretty well worked out for that arrangement. If you start experimenting with things that may not work you're probably going to have a lot of useless broken parts before you arrive at a new solution. I know you foam and glass guys can whip out a new wing in a few minutes <g> but it took me a lot of hours to carve a couple of TLG wings.

As for the airfoil - I've never seen anything like it.
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 07:49:03 PM »

I wonder if this is the same glider he used in the higher ceiling or if it is a lighter version? I would find it very interesting to hear Mr. Mitsuru ISHII's own comments on the flights. He sure does make it look effortless! In glide it looks as slow as a Cat.1 HLG Shocked Awesome!
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Tmat
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 08:51:54 PM »

I'm not sure if it is the same glider that Ishii used to set the catIV record, but the airfoil that Kit shows if from the CatIV glider. There is a full thread on the glider with lot's of information on the airfoil over at AFA. See it here:

 http://www.smallflyingartsforum.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1222486854/20

The airfoil is similar to the new F1A profiles that Brian Eggleston has developed. Low drag for the climb, with still high CL for the glide.

Tony
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Olbill
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 10:37:41 PM »

Thanks for that link Tony. 2008 was pretty much a lost year for me and I missed that whole thread.
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 11:40:51 PM »

No problem Bill!

Now if I can just learn how to spell.. Grin

Tony
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 02:10:58 AM »

I thought maybe you were starting a new organization. We could start a whole new thread on what AFA might stand for!
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jim_buxton
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 11:06:58 AM »

Interesting discussion, and I have arrived late as usual. I am not sure I like the term "Buxton Flop".

Ishii is the man to beat in F1N. He is developing large gliders specifically for the FAI rules and doing well.

The problem in the States is not as much sites as it is the 100 square inch AMA rule... and the 90-second record set in 1974. As long as Wittman's record stands all effort will go towards besting 90 seconds with a 100 square inch glider, it has been the object of affection for over 35 years. It will not take long to better with a DLG, not long at all. Once that happens and the Grail is gone I see the focus shifting to the relatively young F1N records.

~Jim
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 02:40:21 PM »

Oops, I meant to say 1973 it was set. February 18th of 1973 to be exact...
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~Jim Buxton
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2009, 09:02:20 AM »

So the grail has been swiped, is it now time to open up the area rules in the AMA events to allow for bigger gliders? I say why not.
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Tmat
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2009, 09:28:15 AM »

Well, there would be some dissent no doubt. But if the rules matched F1N, then you could fly both events at a single contest. Then again, an F1N event could be added to a contest I suppose.

Seems to me that what was holding Stan back was access to a good high ceiling venue.

Tony
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jim_buxton
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2009, 10:28:56 AM »

Site access has always been paramount to breaking the record. The record has changed hands, but the venue stays the same, Santa Ana/Tustin Hangar 1. I would have to think a bigger glider in Tustin would have a really good chance of doing over 1:41 if 1:37 was done with a 100 square inch model.

If only I had seen this video (and read the comments) sooner....
It gives one a very good idea of the area the Tustin hangar offers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7PMmP60dE8&feature=related

Also a very good 25 minute documentary on the Tustin hangars was produced just this September. View it here:
www.tustinca.org/videos/HangarsHistory.wmv

~Jim
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:26:53 AM by jim_buxton » Logged

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Olbill
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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 10:55:51 AM »

Wow. Not as high as Lakehurst but zero clutter on the floor. What a dream site!

So Jim, it looks like the cat slipped out of the bag today?
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