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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 14277 times)
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Olbill
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« on: April 08, 2010, 12:39:46 PM »

Feel free to add to this section whatever seems applicable. All of these topics are greatly influenced by personal preferences.

To get started here's my winding setup. The winder is from Geauga (Wayne Johnson) and has become unobtanium like the Wilder before it. A2Z has a new indoor winder on the market for $225 with dual output shafts for 10:1 or 20:1 and a counter. I haven't seen one yet. The much less expensive route is get a yellow winder from A2Z for about $21 and a winder brake kit from Dennis Tyson for another $15. You can see the brake kit at http://indoornews.com/.

The torque meter is one of two that I have used for a number of years. The one shown has a full scale capacity of 1.2 in-oz while the other goes to .6 in-oz. I have a set of construction pics that I will post.

The counter on my winder is made from a pedometer with a reed switch triggering the pedometer and a magnet on the winding handle triggering the reed switch. A problem (and benefit) of this setup is that if you wind fast it will skip. Winding fast is a bad idea which is where the benefit part comes in.

Most people use a more portable winding stooge that can be clamped to any available table. I drive to most contests so taking my table along is not a problem.

Some F1D fliers mount their stooge to the top of their toolbox so that they can wind and transfer the motor to the model at the spot where they will launch. A fully wound F1D is like a bomb ready to go off. Anything that can be done to lessen the possibility of damaging the model while preparing to launch is a good thing.
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DaddyO
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 01:00:34 PM »

Useful topic Olbill Smiley

Indoors I use a small wooden jig as shown.
Ali tubes in various positions allow for a range of models from the pistachio WeeBee as shown up to Bostonians. (I use a wire in tube set up at the back same as the outdoor jobs, just smaller. Although you can't see it very well there is a small lip on the back edge that hooks over the table and the clamp (which is a spare part from an angle poise type lamp), slides into a groove and is tightened with a wing nut under the table.

The plastic coated cup hook on the side allows motors to be wound for Easy B's etc which can then be transfered to the airframe.

Outdoors, strangely enough I was just re-making my jig and will post pics when it's finished...

Paul
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 01:52:41 PM »

Making a rubber motor

Most indoor duration fliers use two o-rings on their motors. The purpose of the o-rings is to allow a wound motor to be transferred from the stooge to the model safely and without losing any turns. A lot of different types of o-rings can be used. I cut mine from three different materials:

3/32” hard nylon pressure tubing (LPP and PP)
1/8” hard nylon pressure tubing and (F1L)
plastic imitation Q-tip shafts (EZB)

Here are my steps for making a motor to a specific finished weight:

1.Strip the rubber to the desired weight per unit length
2.Cut the strip to a little over the length needed
3.Lube with your choice of lube (silicone shock oil is my current choice)
4.Put 2 o-rings on the strip and put the strip on the scale
5.Cut pieces off of the strip until reaching the exact target weight
6.Grab the two ends of the rubber and tie an overhand knot as close to the end as you can get it. Pull the knot up tight. (first picture)
7.Grab the two strands of the motor – one in each hand – close to the knot and inside of the knot. Carefully pull the strands apart to move the knot as far as possible to the ends of the rubber. (second picture) If the knot comes out you've gone too far.
8.Tie another overhand knot inside of the first one and pull tight. (third picture)
9.Repeat step 7 to pull the second knot tight against the first one. (fourth picture)

Some people worry about damaging the rubber with this technique but I have not had a problem with it. The best part (other than it being easy) is that if you cut the lubed rubber with 2 o-rings to 1.495 grams, the finished motor will be 1.495 grams.
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 02:36:24 PM »

This was very timely for me. Thanks!

--Bill
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 05:05:11 PM »

Torque meter build

This is a very easily made, very accurate torque meter. The bearing is made from 1/8" and 3/16" pop rivets. I remove the center rods and then drill out the 3/16" rivet body so that the 1/8" rivet body will slide in with a fairly loose fit (no binding). (first picture - notice the excellent machining)

For the motor hook I use a short length of 1/16" brass tubing over the torque wire. This is for reinforcement and to keep the torque wire from getting bent where it goes into the large tube. (second picture)

The motor hook is bent from the 1/16" brass tube with the torque wire inside. The 90 degree bend is there to anchor the wire so it won't come out. With a fairly sturdy torque wire this eliminates the need to solder the tube to the wire. (third picture)

The pointer wire is wrapped around the 1/16" tube and soldered. Note that this is done far enough forward so that the 1/16" tube can go into the pop rivet bearing. (fourth picture)
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 05:17:03 PM »

Funny you mention this Bill!

I saw this series of photos last night on the Indoor construction site and copied them to my hard drive. I was preparing a few questions when i saw this. Very timely indeed! Grin

I assume that the length and diameter of the torque wire is sized using one of the handy programs available on one of the indoor sites to suit the maximum torque required?

I have some thin-walled 1/32" diameter brass tubing that I was thinking of using for an A-6 suitable torque meter (0-0.5 in/oz??).

Do you think a Peck nylon bearing could be substituted for the aluminum pop rivets?

Tony
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 05:23:59 PM »

Torque meter build
Part 2

The first picture shows the finished hook and pointer assembly mounted in the end of a 1/4" brass tube.

The second picture is the rear anchorage for the torque wire. I think that the tube length I needed for this meter was longer than the tube I had so it was extended by soldering on an extra piece. Make sure that the wire loop at the rear is secure enough to not come loose. It's a good idea to do a strenuous load test of this connection to make sure you don't get hit by the innards of the meter with a motor at full stretch.

I solder the rear 1/16" brass tube into the notch in the outer tube. It's possible to make a rear connection that will allow you to release the tension in the meter when you're ready to remove the wound motor. I don't feel I need this feature.

The third picture shows the assembled meter ready for a mount and a dial face, and the fourth shows a finished meter.

The last picture is the front of my lower capacity meter. The 1/16" tubing is too large for some of the smaller o-rings that I use and the wire is too small for a hook to be strong enough. The solution was to double the end of the wire and run the doubled part back into the 1/16" tube that fits in the bearing.

I've been using the 2 meters I built with this method for the last 5 years with no problems.
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Olbill
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 05:48:02 PM »

Tony

You can substitute anything you want for any part of this meter! This is just a case of me using what I had handy at the time and trying to solve some problems with previous meters.

The important points are these:

A loose front bearing. A ball bearing is overkill. The needles on my meters vibrate the whole time I'm winding. If the needle isn't vibrating then you've got a problem.

A strong motor hook that won't straighten out.

Reinforcement where the torque wire goes into the bearing. Without this the torque wire will get repeatedly bent at this point and eventually break.

A foolproof, unbreakable rear connection.

I like long meters with big dials because I can have small graduations on my dial and get really accurate readings. On my smaller meter I can interpolate readings into the thousandths of an inch-ounce. The longer wire also gets less stress at full scale readings and is less likely to develop a permanent deformation.

Yes, I use the online wire size calculators but I also test a finished meter and design a dial face that reflects the test values instead of the theoretical values.

Which brings up my last rant for right now which is about commercial meters and arbitrary dial face markings. If you're going to use the same meter for your whole life, and you never feel the need to compare your flying results or your winding technique with anyone else, then it's perfectly okay to have a meter that goes from 0 to 10 (or whatever) with no indication of what the units mean. But if someone tells me that they wind to 3.5 on a Johnboy #2 meter then I have no idea what that means. If I were to have a Johnboy #2 meter and if I were lucky enough that it was made exactly like the other person's then 3.5 might mean something.

But if another flier tells me that they launched their F1L on .17 in-oz of torque then I know exactly what they're talking about.
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 12:23:37 AM »

Bill, thanks again for posting this. Your points are well taken.

I agree, it is useful to know that your torque meter is calibrated to a known standard so that you can talk intelligently with others. Been through a similar deal with F1B and torque meters.

One question for you on your meter shown in the photos. How is the "U" channel mounting bracket attached to the brass main tube? I assume that it pivots?

Do you plot your own dial faces on AutoCAD?

Tony
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 12:36:01 AM »

One question for you on your meter shown in the photos. How is the "U" channel mounting bracket attached to the brass main tube? I assume that it pivots?

Do you plot your own dial faces on AutoCAD?

Tony

The horizontal piece of the mount is a threaded brass rod that goes through the large tube a little off center. It probably touches the torque wire inside but I don't think that matters. One of my meters pivots freely up and down and the other has a mount I can tighten to hold it in a desired orientation.

Yes I do dial faces in AutoCAD. I will draw one for anyone that needs one or you can use the dial face drawing utility at indoornews.com.

And that was 3 questions!
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 12:51:50 AM »

Are you charging per question now? Grin Grin Cheesy Wink

Tony
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 08:31:43 AM »

For an ignoramus in the usage of a torque meter, could you show a relative close-up of one in use (outdoor and indoor usage, bitte)?
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 12:17:05 PM »

Pete

This would probably take a video which I'm not set up to do. I'll do a description of winding a motor and maybe that will help.

BTW - I've never flown outdoor rubber so someone else will have to handle that part.
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 12:25:43 PM »

Pete,

I can show an outdoor torque meter and how it's used, but it will have to wait a bit as I am moving back to the Toronto area this weekend and will have everything packed up for a while until I'm settled in. Starting a new job and all that.

The use of a torque meter outdoors is similar to indoor practice, but with some differences. For example, in indoor (duration) it is common to wind to near maximum turns, and then back off turns until a desired torque (not turns) is reached. This is not the practice with outdoor duration models. Typically, we wind to near maximum turns AND torque.

For fixed surface outdoor duration models (no auto-surfaces) I have a specific torque target that I will wind to. The model is trimmed to that torque so I don't like to exceed that value or the model might not behave itself.

Tony
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 01:06:39 PM »

Winding a motor for indoor duration flying

Disclaimer: This and all else I've written in this topic reflects my personal methods. Every indoor flier will probably have their own way of doing things that may be radically different from what I do. Also, this is written for someone who has never flown indoor duration models or who has very little experience.

Hookup
The knot end of the motor goes on the torque meter; the other end on the winder. For most right handed fliers the winding setup will be on the left side of the work table, and the model will be held in the left hand when transferring the motor to the model. Having the winding setup on the left side of the table will keep the model in a clear area off of the table while you're hooking up the motor. Figure out in advance what the approximate maximum number of turns and maximum torque are for the motor you're using.

Winding
1. Stretch the motor until the length from the torque meter to the winder is about 5 to 6 times the resting length.

2. Begin winding at a fairly slow pace. While the motor is stretched to this length you will want to put in around 50% of the total number of turns that the motor will take.

3. Test the motor at frequent intervals when you are getting close to the 50% mark. Test by grabbing the motor a foot or so in front of the winder and pull on it towards the winder. When the motor starts feeling hard instead of stretchy it's time to move in towards the the torque meter. All rubber motors will have this point where they feel “hard” instead of “stretchy”. It may take a little practice to be able to recognize the difference.

4. Move towards the torque meter a foot or so and continue to wind at a slow pace. Put in another 100 to 200 turns and test the motor again. When it starts to feel “hard” again it's time to move in some more.

5. Continue this process until you're either at the maximum torque you're aiming for or the motor breaks. As you get close to maximum torque you should test the motor frequently. When you are close to the maximum torque that the motor will take the torque will climb a little as you wind and then fall off a little when you stop. Near the breaking point the drop off happens faster. At this point putting in more turns is likely to break the motor. When you reach your target torque the motor length should be about the same as the hook to hook distance on your model.

6. Record your torque and turn numbers and then back off turns until you reach your desired launch torque.

7. Lock the winder and place it in its holder on the winding stooge.

8. Pick up the model and hold it at the prop hub so that the prop can't turn.

9. Position the model over the wound motor with the prop end over the winder.

10. Grab the wound motor by the o-ring so that the front of the o-ring is exposed. Take the motor off of the winder, being careful to not let the o-ring slip back between your fingers. Hook the o-ring onto the prop hook and release the o-ring gently to let the motor torque transfer into the prop shaft.

11. Hold the model (still by the front bearing area) over the wound motor and grab and remove the rear o-ring from the torque meter.

12. At this point you can hook the motor onto the rear hook of the model or you can continue holding the rear o-ring in your hand while you move to your launch point. Some models will take an undesirable semi-permanent warp from the wound motor, so the less time it's on the model the better. In either case, after making the rear hookup release the rear o-ring gently to let the motor stick take the torque. Avoid shock loads as much as possible.

13. Launch and admire your excellent work as your model slowly works its way to the ceiling!
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 05:19:17 PM »

A very well done tutorial Bill, I keep finding myself saying ‘Yes’ to the points you make. One example is the double overhand knot for tying rubber. I only came across this two or three years ago (and thought it sounded crude!) but once I had tried it I was a convert to its use, particularly for indoor motors.

It may not be apparent to some newcomers why the Cezar Banks type of torque meter is gimbal mounted. With a fixed torque meter, if you inadvertently (or intentionally) move sideways or move the winder up or down then the rubber puts a side load on the torque meter front bearing which will usually cause errors in the torque reading. The gimbal mounting avoids this trouble.

I attach some pictures of my attempt at a Banks type meter. Tony, Mat has mentioned recently on the Outdoor Stooge thread that UK modelers like to make things out of old fence posts and at a cost of no more than 3 pence. I should point out that the 3p should include labour costs and any sales tax. On my meter I think that I have stayed pretty well within the guidelines. The main wooden parts are cut from an obeechi fence post and the vertical are thin plywood. Brass tube bearings hold the hook and pointer at one end and tail wire at the other. The required length of torque wire is calculated and the wire is cut a little longer than this. The wire is then tested with a weighted torque arm and the length is reduced to give the correct torque at full scale deflection. Like Bill I cannot stand uncalibrated torque meters.

There is a piece of wire which runs from a knob in front of the dial through some short paper tubes taped to the bottom of the main body. The rear of the wire is formed as in photograph 3 and the end of the wire enters a hole drilled in the main body. The green is a piece of litho plate wrapped around the wire. In use the knob is pulled forwards so that the litho plate is in contact with the rear of the main body and the tail wire is prevented from rotating because the turned over end of the tail wire is blocked by the litho plate. However if the knob is pushed in, as it is in photograph 3, the tail wire can rotate in the gap between the litho plate and the main body.

A release such as this has been mentioned in Alan Cohen’s ‘Minislick’ thread as useful for completely unwinding a motor. I find I use it much more for getting the motor off the hook of the torque meter. You are holding the model and the propeller in you left hand and you need to take the rubber off the torque meter hook and transfer it to the model. It can be difficult, the ‘o’ ring can be tight on the hook, the hook can turn and if the torque meter is gimballed it can swing anywhere! It is possible to pinch the motor just away from the ‘o’ ring, press the button with another finger which will release those few turns needed to free the motor from the hook.

John
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 05:39:59 PM »

Very good John, well within the UK cost limit that I suggested. Wink I forgot to mention the other key material that most UK modelers are well acquainted with, "bent wire and brass tubing". Naturally, the word "brass" is pronounced as "brahhss" to get the full effect. Grin

I'm warming to the torque release lever contraption. I would like to hear Bill's comment on this and why he does not use one on his torque meters?

Tony
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 07:51:09 PM »

I'm warming to the torque release lever contraption.

I would like to hear Bill's comment on this and why he does not use one on his torque meters?

Laziness maybe?

I just don't usually have a problem with getting the motor off the rear hook. And I shudder at the prospect of unwinding a motor by hitting the release on the meter. That sounds like an only partially controlled explosion.
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 08:56:19 PM »

And I shudder at the prospect of unwinding a motor by hitting the release on the meter. That sounds like an only partially controlled explosion.

I wondered about that. But perhaps the inertia of all the metal bits slows down the motors unwinding at such low torque levels as used with indoor motors?

Tony
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 09:39:51 PM »

I wouldn't do it with any motor. It's always best to actually unwind the motor. That said, I will sometimes let go of the winder handle if I'm in a rush or just getting tired.
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 06:19:39 AM »

Guys,

Thanks a bunch for the info. It's helped clear up some questions that have been beating the backsides of my eyeballs. I realize that the meters for outdoor models are on the winder end, so I was curious just how it was done for the small, delicate models. I would have gotten "hands on" info had I made it to the IIFI.

I still have to bookmark the site where the wire sizing chart is if I get around to making a meter.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 08:39:09 AM »

Pete,

There have been some modelers that use a stooge mounted torque meter for outdoor rubber powered models. Bob White used to use one (made by Bob Wilder if I'm not mistaken) as did Walt Ghio (although I don't think he does currently). The big drawback for the stooge mounted outdoor torque meter (in the past) was that, with the model mounted in the stooge (with or without blast tube) any breeze present would rock the wings and affect the torque reading accuracy. Walt tried to combat this by removing the wings from the model during winding.

With F1B, we now wind our rubber motors outside of the model (just like indoor) using a partial, rigid winding tube that allows for an easy transfer of the wound rubber motor to the model. A 1/2 turn bayonet fitting is used on a rear bobbin so that a quick insertion of the semi-tube and a twist of the wrist is all that's required to install the motor. No rear peg or pin is removed or replaced for the installation. (although the standard rear peg is still in place. It just never comes out of the model now).

The point is that with the new winding system, a stooge mounted torque meter has become quite feasible again for outdoor rubber models. The main problem with the winder mounted torque meter is that the torque meters spins around and the winder has to be stopped to take a torque reading. With the stooge mounted system you can just keep winding and actually watch the torque build up progress while you are winding.

I'm seriously thinking about a stooge mounted torque meter for my F1B models.

See the attached photo for details of the 1/2 tube winding method. It's a photo of Alex Andriukov winding btw.

Incidentally, the winder is now equipped with "Blast Shield" to protect the flyers hands.

Tony
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2010, 04:11:33 PM »

Thanks Tony,

I spent the better part of last evening going over Anriukov's site, so I was able to get an idea about the what's and how's Grin. The exploded view for the hub was a real eye opener - I see now WHY they are not inexpensive. Real engineering marvels.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 05:14:10 PM »

Incidentally, I'm making a set-up to wind my P-30's using a mini half tube as I have found that once I tried winding outside of the model, I cannot imagine ever doing it the old way ever again!

Tony
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2010, 05:38:40 PM »

Incidentally, I'm making a set-up to wind my P-30's using a mini half tube as I have found that once I tried winding outside of the model, I cannot imagine ever doing it the old way ever again!

Same here!
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