Hip Pocket Builders' Forum

Indoor Free Flight Forum => EZB, 35cm, Ministick, AROG, Livingroom Flyers => Topic started by: Flyguy on January 22, 2014, 03:19:52 PM



Title: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 22, 2014, 03:19:52 PM
Hi - with the nasty weather I'm thinking it's a good time to try to get back into indoor after 22 years; the other motivation is that I have some areas where I think I can fly ministick. I hope members don't mind me posting a few pictures of my trials and tribulations!

I still have two EZB's sitting in storage and two nearly-finished ministicks. The ministicks just need to have the wings covered, the wing posts and tubes made, so this seems like a good place to get some practice. I had just gotten into ministick in 1992, but it was frustrating - there is about a 10" ledge in the Columbia Rotunda up about 40 feet or so and the first mini I made landed right on that ledge, I couldn't get it off even with a stick attached to a balloon. So I built another one for the next flying session and guess what - same thing! I was so frustrated that I decided to build two at the same time, but we lost the Rotunda at that time so they've been sitting since 1992.

The forum has lots of helpful posts, I was happy to find one about old balsa - I have a nice supply of balsa from Micro-X from 1970 (yikes), but apparently it should be OK to use it.

So my first goal was to get the wings covered without totally messing them up. I broke the first wing umpteen times (don't have my indoor hands anymore!), but eventually got them covered without destroying them, they are in the first photo. I made 1/32" wing posts and condenser tubes for the first one, but used 3/64" tubes and posts for the second one, it's just easier to handle. It doesn't appear to make much difference because they both came out to .55 g. That's kind of heavy, so I checked the components and it's was mostly the fuselage, which I used outdoor balsa for.

Next, trying to build one from scratch. Fortunately I still have my micrometer stripper and other tools. I drew up some plans and made the forms (used circles and ellipses cause it looks nice). I used to use cardboard, but this time I used 1/32" bass because it's easy to sand. CA'd the edges, as Larry Coslick notes, which both seals them and makes sure that the plan edges don't curl up. Wrapped the balsa last night and finished them today. Second photo shows the wing/stab on the forms, third shows them off the forms.

My main worry was being able to cover them without ruining them. Fourth photo shows that I didn't totally screw up, but still need practice. Wing with posts came out to .094g, not bad, but after breaking it a few times and repairs, it's around 0.10 now! Reduced number of screw ups from about a dozen to about six, so there's some progress!

Still have my Nolan EZB prop jig, so using that to do the prop, as shown.

Boy these build really fast, hoping to finish today. Larry


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 22, 2014, 07:44:40 PM
OK, been working away. Got the stab and rudder attached to the boom, photo attached. Finished the prop, final weight was .14g. Got the condenser tubes on the fuse, total weight of fuse/stab/rud/tubes was .19g. Done! Really surprised that the total weight is .43g, right on target. This is encouraging because it tells me that it's not that difficult to build a mini to weight, I didn't do any fancy building or balsa selection, even broke it a few times, and it's still on weight. So I can focus on the flying. From living room tests, this mini flies noticeably slower than the other two, I guess its the weight difference. Can't wait to try them out in a larger space!

On to the micro. The minis make 8-10 ft. circles, and my 11 sq. ft. living room is too small for that. For the 'micro', aka living room stick, I basically scaled down my mini design to 5" with some small changes. Given that 5/7 of .425g is about .30g, that's the weight I'm shooting for. Got the forms wrapped earlier today, got the ribs in, and they are done, photo attached. Really hoping I don't mess them up when covering, I'm finally starting to break things less!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: ykleetx on January 22, 2014, 08:39:03 PM
Well done and welcome back to indoor!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 23, 2014, 12:58:43 PM
Thanks Kang, it's good to be back! I used to primarily be an EZB flyer, so I checked to see what's going on these days. When I flew in the 60s-70's, .75g was considered damn light, however I see that you and others have gotten the weight down to .4g or less, that's truly amazing, really incredible! I'm actually glad they have a new category called F1L, that seems like fun, plus one of my old EZB's that's been repaired a bunch of times weighs about 1.2g, so I guess I can fly it as F1L! Seems like there are a bunch of new categories, F1M, A6, P24, would be nice to have a summary page somewhere that tells you what they all are.

Also saw that you had a 34 min flight at Lakehurst, unbelievable, congrats! I flew in Lakehurst in the 70s; I haven't had a car for years, but I have a friend that I might be able to persuade to take a ride down. I'm also working on trying to get some flying space here in NYC, we'll see. Also don't know if any of the modelers I knew years back are around anymore.

Should finish the micro today or tomorrow, I'm curious to see how it flies, will try to post some video. Thanks again for the kind words Kang!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: ykleetx on January 23, 2014, 03:23:57 PM
The 34 minute flight -- and the .4 g model -- oh, that's old news :)

I was fortunate to clock a 37:42 at Lakehurst in 2012 using a .238 g EZB.

Please excuse my blabbing here.

Welcome back!

-Kang


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 23, 2014, 10:50:47 PM
Wow, those weights and times are impressive, very nice! Its nice to see such incredible progress and the hobby continue. It appears that EZB has essentially become F1D! F1L seems attractive for now, that is if I can get someplace big enough for it, right now even the mini's are 'large' because I basically have a lot of 10 to 20 sq ft, 15 ft smooth ceiling rooms available for flying, I have high hopes for the micro! still working on finding some bigger spaces


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 24, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
OK, got the wing and stab of the micro covered, first photo, the others show the finished micro and the mini. Came in at about .25g. I didn't even break it (yet) so my level of clumsiness has been reduced!

So far it's flown nice 'right off the board' (got lucky but I think using CMOS also helps). Here's a living room test flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuxqBT3trro

I can't wait to try it in a (slightly) larger space!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Hepcat on January 25, 2014, 05:49:35 AM
Flyguy,
Welcome back. You don't seem to have forgotten much in 22 years.  Considering the space that is one of the most amazing indoor flights I have seen.
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on January 25, 2014, 03:42:40 PM
Wow Flyguy, ditto John's comment! That flight was so nice it almost looked fake! Super job on that build! Don't know that I could duplicate your build if you put out plans, probably not at my level of newbiness, but man oh man, that was a dream living room flight. Sure would love to be able to do that.

So question if you don't mind... is there any wash in on the inside(LT) wing? Looks like it in the vid when you are holding it before launch. Would love to know the specifics on your methods in trimming it for lt turn flight. I see the offset in the tail boom.

What thickness are those prop blades?

Sorry for all the questions... it's just hard to resist after seeing that wonderful living room circuit.

Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 25, 2014, 05:25:51 PM
Thank you John and Jimmy, it's nice to be back! Wish I had a regular flying space with other modelers like years ago, its a little frustrating, the only compensation is that I've had some fun flying sessions in my living room lately!

Jimmy - very observant, yes the left part of the wing has 1/16" wash in. The blades are .01, but I also have some .006, so I'm experimenting with that, making another set now. The tail boom is offset - it's on the plans so I'll post those (I unexpectedly had a little trouble converting them to pdf, but I think they came out OK). I'm experimenting a little with the rubber and prop, so those and some other things shown on the plan are tentative, the plans show what I used for the one in the video. I didn't go for superlight, so I don't think you'll have any problems building it; you can also just make the wing/stab/rudder rectangles to simplify it; let me know if you give it a go.

I wasn't sure if the micro was going to be like 'real' indoor flying or just an experiment, but so far I'm having a lot of fun with it, it trims like my mini. Will try flying it in some empty classrooms next week, along with the minis.

Larry


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on January 25, 2014, 11:23:53 PM
Hey thanks for the plans! So do you think building square ends vs the rounded elliptical shape would do anything to flight performance? Looking at that vid, your micro certainly turned out to be the "real" deal for indoor flying I would say! I am in the same boat in that my only flying is in my family room. Mine is with my Ikara Butterfly which does a nice circuit but barely a quarter of the time yours is getting and it probably weighs 4 times what yours does.

Any chance of a close up pic of your thrust bearing? Did you make it or was it a purchase? Has to be a wee one for sure I would guess. So how many turns was that flight and how do you go about winding it?

I am a free flight newb and just getting into this side of the hobby (5 years rc scratch built foamies) and the little actual "living room flyers" have really gotten my attention. I just about fell over myself when I saw your vid.  ;)

Yeah I may give it a shot but will have to figure out how to get everything so small. No rubber or wood strippers and just the very basic tools, and buying the stuff is not in the household budget. I know I could make a wood stripper and A2Z I think has rubber that small... I think.

Oh and here's another question... what is it covered with?

That's a lot of questions marks!!! Sorry, just really diggin' what ya got there.  ::)

Looking forward to more exploits with the micro!
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 26, 2014, 02:48:20 PM
Jimmy - I think it will be fine with square tips, the only difference is that that uses a little more balsa and glue joints, so it's probably a little heavier. What I like about the elliptical shapes is that I used one strip wrapped around a form for both the wing and stab, then glued them in the center rear using a dot of titebond. One error I noticed on the plan - I used .01 music wire, not .008.

My camera doesn't take good close up pictures, the bearing was from A2Z, it's their dual thrust bearing, comes in a pack of 6, you could also use the Harlan bearing. The covering is ultra film, I have a bunch from Ray Harlan I bought years back, A2Z also has it. Also got the .018 rubber from A2Z, that's the smallest they have. All you really need is one sheet of .024 A/B balsa (wing, stab, rudder outlines), one sheet .024 C (ribs) and one sheet .062 (fuse, boom, prop spar, wing spars) and you could probably build a dozen of them. So everything is available from A2Z if you want to give it a try.

For living room flying I'm just using a plastic 16 to 1 winder and Jim Jones torque meter (of course I also have a Bob Wilder winder and Geauga torque meter, but those are for special occasions!). The flight in the video had about 1900 turns, I only did one break test and it was at about 2700 turns. Haven't done more because, although most of my 44 year old balsa seems OK, my huge stockpile of old indoor rubber appears to have bitten the dust, damn!

I tried more winds to see how it climbs and it just zips right up (too bad the ceiling is only 8 ft.), will try under a 15 ft. ceiling next week. The bad part is that I have work to do, but it flies so well in my living room it's hard to stop!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on January 26, 2014, 07:52:44 PM
Hey Larry, thanks for all that info! You could almost name this pane the A2Z special.  ;)

That is encouraging to know the stuff you used for this build is readily available. For the wing & stabs, did you wet the wood first?
Looking at the sizes you are dealing with and how nicely your micro turned out, you obviously haven't missed a step.

I don't have a winder and buying one is not in the cards just yet. Right now I am doing things the hard way and hand winding. The Butterfly takes 350 turns. I can't imagine trying to get over a thousand!  :o
Is your winder a big enough size to also use on bigger outdoor models? I will probably mostly do embryo size planes. Do you have a stooge for your micro? Would love to see that set up.

Thanks again for sharing everything. This micro is just a great plane.
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 27, 2014, 04:20:49 PM
Considering that I've been out of indoor for many years, I'm glad to see that there are still suppliers around, that's important and I always try to support them when I can, both by mentioning them and buying stuff!

Yes, I did the outlines in the standard way, soaked the strips in hot water for about 20 min, then wrapped them around the forms, same as shown above for the mini. You really need a winder, if you have a hand drill or egg beater around you can use that, the KP winder goes for about $20 from several vendors and is nice. I'm just using my old Mark I right now, it's 16 to 1, but it can only do 1/8" max, and even then I've had a few of them bind up. For 1/8" or larger, I use the gizmogeezer winder which is really nice, it's shown in my rubber power field box video.

The set up is just clamping the Jim Jones torque meter to my TV stand and winding! The photo shows the torque meter and winder, with Homer Simpson looking rather unhappy about it. Have consistently gotten 2+ min flights in the living room, top of 2:40 so far, I'm experimenting with different rubber sizes and props, now this is what I call fun!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on January 27, 2014, 06:39:15 PM
2+ minutes in an actual living room is just nutz! When finances change, I will be ordering everything for this guy and definitely giving him a shot. That is just too awesome to pass up. Seems quite simple for as little as it is and seems the only hang up would be whether or not A2Z has the wood in stock.

One of my first purchases is going to be the 15:1 winder that A2z has. I will busing it for both indoor and my outdoor embryos. I was tempted to get the cheapo electric winder with counter from Hobby King too, though probably better off with a good one.

Looking forward to your r&d with rubber & props!
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on January 28, 2014, 01:22:14 AM
Thats a very impressive flight Flyguy - both the time and its graceful flight pattern.
Thanks for the plan - another temptation.
Happy flying.
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 29, 2014, 09:31:08 PM
You're welcome John, I would give in to the temptation to build it if you have small areas you want to fly in, it seems to be very good for that. It seems to drift less than the minis so you can get away with smaller spaces.

Jimmy - maybe I'm old fashioned but I wouldn't use an electric winder because it's important to get the 'feel' of the rubber when winding, as you'll see. That's what makes a good winder good - the gears are very smooth so that you get a good 'feel'.

I tried the planes in one space at work, of course I selected the room with the highest ceiling (25 feet), but the floor area was kind of limited to around 20 ft. The minis were a little disappointing - the new one has a great climb but it just runs out of space. The micro was a thrill - nice climb to just below the ceiling, didn't drift as much as the mini, but then on the cruise phase it hit the wall at about 20 ft. up and just stopped. That's when I realized that the room had a slat wall, and the prop got stuck in the slats! It's hard to see in the picture, but the micro is hanging slightly left of center a few feet down from the top. It was there for a few days, but I bought a 20' extending pole at home depot and just was able to nudge it out without damage. The next room I'm trying is only about 18 ft. high, but the walls and ceiling are smooth, with no slat death traps!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Alan Mkitarian on January 29, 2014, 11:32:38 PM
  Hi Flyguy,
        I also flew at Columbia back in the 70's.  I used to fly with Charlie Styles and Doug Barber we would
drive up for the day from South Jersey ( you know below Trenton).  Both of those guy's have passed away
but we still have a small group that fly at Bridesburg rec center in Phila. once a month.  You will need to join
ECIM to fly at Lakehurst.  Get info on there web site.  Also be an AMA member.  Dues for ECIM are $20 for
the year.  You will also need a military pass to gain access to the Hanger.  Welcome back to indoor and enjoy.
                                    Regards   Alan Mkitarian


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 31, 2014, 12:48:41 PM
Hi Alan, nice to hear from another ex-Columbia flyer! I remember Doug Barber flying EZB at Columbia years back, sorry to hear he's gone. I could mention many modelers, but Bob Bender in particular was a childhood friend, grew up flying with him at Mitchell field (I was a kid, he was an adult, anyone know if he's still around?), but I don't see any flying at Floyd Bennett anymore (he'd be in his late 80's by now). Ironically, I've been a tenured prof at Columbia for many years now, exploring every possibility to get flying space (but the Dome looks unlikely). I found a large classroom that might be good for the micro and maybe even the mini, will find out next week.

I'm a current AMA member and I remember the procedure for Lakehurst. But that would be only a once in awhile thing, I really need a space that's accessible by public transportation, like a train and cab, if anyone knows something reasonably close to NYC please let me know. Unbelievable that there's no indoor flying in an area where there are lots of good indoor spaces. Back in the 90's I did a bunch of 'gorilla flying' (i.e., without permission) in various spaces in NYC, the NYU library was fantastic - it's got about a 40sq ft. space and the ceiling is over 100 feet (my EZB made it right to the ceiling). Of course the guards had to ask me to stop, but they were thrilled and wanted to buy the plane! Now that I'm back into indoor, it's tempting to try again, I've been thinking about Grand Central...

Thanks for the welcome back Alan, there are probably other modelers out there who would be back in the hobby if only we could get some space! Larry


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 02, 2014, 12:11:17 AM
Hey Larry, have you had a chance to do more R&D with rubber & props? I am quite curious to hear how this guy responds with the slight changes.

I also wanted to ask how you hook up the single strand motor... do you just tie small loops at the ends or use some form of small rings?
I measured the rubber that came with my Butterfly and to my eyeballs it seems to be 1/32 by 1/16 for its cross section. Then I did the old fraction to decimals conversion and 1/16 is .0625. That's almost 4 times the size of .018. Holy smokes that rubber is skinny! I will be buying rubber soon and I am going to follow your advice you left on my thread and get the .025. I will get the .018 too, might as well since A2Z may be gone soon. This way I'll have it.

Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 03, 2014, 05:33:29 PM
Hi Jimmy, I think with the .018 and .025 you'll be just fine, I've been flying both the micro and mini sticks with those sizes. I'm also going to try to strip some .012" with my Harlan stripper and see how a loop performs when I get a chance, I'll let you know.

For the single strands, I use an overhand knot to form a loop, then pull on the ends to make it the desired smallness (don't overdo it!). Then I tie a square knot on top of that and pull it tight, so far the loop has never failed, first photo shows an example. I didn't want to use CA because for single strands that would be on the inside of the strand, not on the outside like with a loop.

Second photo shows part of my supply of props of varying pitches. The rear ones are with some .011" I have, the front two are .006, you can see they are translucent! Making the whole blade out of one piece with .006, as I did for the .011, was just too flexible. So I tried doing it out of three pieces (front prop) or two pieces (second prop) and that resulted in an adequately stiff blade, the one piece seems fine (there also weren't any detectable differences in weight between the props). The main question I have at this point is whether to use slightly thinner wood (I have some other sizes now from .008-.010) with a pitch of say 10" or increase the pitch slightly with a less flexible thickness, they both seem to give very similar performance, though I'm leaning towards the 11" pitch prop at this point, seems to give the slowest flying. But perhaps those more knowledgeable could weigh in on this.

I'm playing with the design right now, increased the wing with to 2.5" from 2" (and stab proportionally). From my calculations with CMOS, that's about as wide as you can go without having to locate the wing beyond the fuselage length! The third photo shows the old micro wing/stab/rudder (top) and the new micro (bottom). Have to do some covering, curious to see how it flies.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 04, 2014, 09:27:34 AM
This is great stuff Larry! Thanks for the pics. I am quite curious to hear how the different props you have work out. I am even more curious to see how the wider chord does also.

Is it just me or are your prop spars just a single piece? These look so simple, other than the ultra thin blade material. I don't have a set of mics to measure so anything other than the skinniest sheets I can get will just be by feel and flex after sanding. I'll need to get me some ultra fine sand paper too I see. I am also curious to see what method you used to glue the multi-piece prop blades together so neatly and w/o added weight.

Great stuff and thanks for sharing! Can't wait to see more!  :)
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 05, 2014, 02:24:41 PM
Yes, the prop spars for both my mini's and micro's are one piece - I sand them about .050 round first, then add in the taper to about .025 at the tips. I use the sanding-blocks approach - you roll the pieces on the block sanding at a slight angle. No special sandpaper, I just use 150 grit from the local hardware, glue one onto a block the same size, and the other onto a smaller sanding block, shown in the photo, which also shows a prop spar and 1/32" wing post - don't need any measuring tools for the wing post, just sand until it fits into the tubes, you can see some condenser tubes on the 1/32" wire. For the blades, I just pre-glue then glue them in the usual manner, Coslick only uses thinner after the pre-glue, but the added weight of a second glue is apparently below the .001g readability of the scale.

Just finished the new micro, will get down to some LV flying soon.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: ykleetx on March 05, 2014, 06:27:15 PM

Read Larry Colick's article on indoor building.  It's probably the best single article about building an indoor model.

http://www.indoorduration.com/Inavhobbyshopper.htm



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 05, 2014, 07:08:18 PM
Yes, that's the article I'm referring to, I assumed Jimmy knew about it by now, thanks for the link, it's definitely a must-read. Larry pre-glues the blades, then just runs acetone over the joint later, I was noting that I simply put another bead of glue instead of running acetone because on blades this small it doesn't appear to make any readable weight difference (in milligrams) - the single piece blade, 2 piece blade, and 3 piece blades all weighed exactly the same - and I wanted to make sure the blades were strong since they take a lot of beating in the living room. However, I'm sure that just using the acetone is probably the lightest and cleanest way to do it, as is everything else in the article!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 05, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
Kang, thanks for that link. I have to admit, I am so new to this that I haven't gotten to reading all those articles from that site yet, though I certainly intend to as soon as I can. I see this one focuses on Colick's Hobby Shopper EZB that I have read so much about on the forum. Next thing you know I wont be able to resist building that one too!

Larry, I just can't wait to hear how that wide chord Micro flies!

Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 10, 2014, 05:48:34 PM
Hey Larry,
Have you had a chance to get the new wide chord micro in the air yet? I am quite anxious to hear how that thing does. I will be placing my A2Z order in the next night or so and I figure a mini-stick will be my first build since I can at least fly one of those right away. I plan on doing an LPP too but don't have an indoor place to fly atm other than the oddball chance at church. So I might as well build what I can readily fly first.

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 10, 2014, 11:45:51 PM
Hi Jimmy, yes I've had some test flights with the new chord, but I need more time to investigate, it's complex. For ex., the 2.5" chord means I'm back to square one with respect to prop/rubber combinations, so I need some time to examine this. It does show some impressive slow flying, but it's trickier to trim. I'm also still flying the original. At this point I have 5" props with pitches of 8", 8.5", 9", 9.5", 10", 10.5", 11" and 11.5". The 11.5" gives a 2.3 P/D ratio, which is the highest I've seen, but I'm really leaning towards this pitch at this point for the 2" chord, it has an impressive slow climb and cruise, I think I can get to 3 min no-touch with that prop, but we'll see.

It's been harder to living room fly lately because the heat is on with the cooler temps, and so its a lot more turbulent in the living room, and there's more drift. On days when its warmer out and the heat isn't on its calmer! So the outdoor weather still affects indoor LR flying. Also, you don't often get flights without hitting something, so I estimate the time per loop during cruise and then just count the number of loops during climb and cruise, my point being that you still get some information even with only limited living room flying. And even with drift it often still cruises around for a good minute or more before hitting anything anyway, which is neat.

I'm not sure anymore there are any simple conclusions, it looks like there might be multiple strategies that can work, that's probably why you still see different designs and approaches after decades. Once you get it fine tuned, the differences are very small and it gets complex because there are a lot of tradeoffs. For ex, I'm still not sure about flare versus pitch options in Cat I but I'll post my observations later when I get more info, perhaps others will weigh in.

My recommendation is simply to build the original micro, it's more stable and fun to fly. I've built 3 of them so far and have only had to adjust the wing incidence; you should be cruising around the living room in no time. I've played with the blade shape/size as well, but the original still seems best so far, can get an easy 2 min up to 3 min (with some lucky ceiling scrubbing) with the 9" or 10" pitch.

Enjoy the A2Z order, I think getting the rubber and some wood will cover you for a bunch of planes. I always enjoy getting supplies in orders, its a treat. I also don't have a regular good space to fly in, my poor mini sticks have been mostly sitting in the box, while my micros are up and flying all the time, I don't even bother to put them away anymore, the picture shows them ready to go at a moments notice on my TV! But even in larger spaces, like 20 sq. ft. with an 18 ft. ceiling, I seem to be flying the micros, not the minis. I think the minis need a gym.

One idea I've had lately is that squash courts seem to be a good flying space for the micro - the rooms are generally around 20 sq feet with an 18 foot ceiling, and the walls and ceiling are smooth so there's nothing to hang onto. Squash-court competition? Will give it a try when I get a chance. I expect to see pictures of your build Jimmy, and flying reports!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 11, 2014, 02:32:44 PM
Hey Larry,
Thanks for the update. I will certainly just build the original Micro. Then only issue I still have is knowing how to set pitch into the prop. I am ordering A2Z's pitch gauge as I know that will benefit me quite a bit. I could build one too but then it is bad enough not understanding pitch, let alone building something to help with what I have non clue on. Seems like a good investment.
I can't wait to get wood & rubber from A2Z. I am getting some basic tools/needs too like glue bottle & needle caps, the thrust bearings, and odds & ends.

I know what you mean about the heat. I sent my Butterfly for a flight forgetting the little space heater was cranking full blast. What a ride that was! lol!

I'll post pics for sure. Lord willing maybe a vid of it hopefully flying at least as good as yours does. (just gotta figure out setting prop pitch)

I need a scale too. I will go for super light as that has always been mu building style and I have gotten pretty good using Duco thinned with Acetone. Should be fun. Can't wait to get started!

Thanks again for all the advice and sharing your great adventure with your creations. It's a great help and fun to read about.

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 11, 2014, 03:47:00 PM
I am still trying to wrap my mind around the prop.
..."Set blade angle at 45* at 1 7/16."... is on the plans. Is that 45* in relation to the blade at the opposite end? and I am clueless about "at 1 7/16."

So far I am really grasping these builds and the techniques involved, but still remain solidly in a stupor about this part. I can't wait to get Ron William's book. But it will be a while before I do. Would you be able to put this into laments terms?  ::)  ;D

Thx!
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: mkirda on March 11, 2014, 08:45:57 PM
I am still trying to wrap my mind around the prop.
..."Set blade angle at 45* at 1 7/16."... is on the plans. Is that 45* in relation to the blade at the opposite end? and I am clueless about "at 1 7/16."

Thx!
Jimmy

At a 1 7/16" radius from the prop center, the prop angle should be 45 degrees. Set one, then rotate and set the other blade.

Mike


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 11, 2014, 09:22:20 PM
Thanks for the explanation Mike. So looking at this step... this would be after adding shape to the blade such as from a prop block or a cylinder right? I grabbed my Ikara 6"er from my Butterfly and I see how if I laid it shaft down against a surface held at 45* it would only be touching both at the LE & TE at a specific point on the blade and nowhere else if I moved that surface inward or outward from that point. Is that right? I am dying to see a vid of someone doing this process.

Lord willing maybe a vid of it hopefully flying at least as good as yours does. (just gotta figure out setting prop pitch)

Correction on this comment, what I meant was hopefully it will fly at least HALF as good as yours does Larry.  ;)

Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 11, 2014, 10:12:08 PM
Hey Jimmy, if you look at my initial post, the last photo shows the setup where I use the Nolan prop jig - you can see that the prop blade is placed at a 45 degree angle at about 1 7/16" from the center shaft, exactly as Mike said. This is of course after you nuke it on the jar to get the curvature. The Jim Jones pitch gauge, first photo attached, does a similar thing, except the center of the prop is at 45 and then you move that 1 7/16 (its magnetic) so that the blade is horizontal at that radius. I'm sure you can find it elsewhere but the formula is pitch = 2 x pi x radius x tan theta, where pi is 3.14159 and radius is the distance from the center you are solving for, theta is the blade angle. tan 45 = 1, so that just drops out and so for 2 x 3.14159 x 1 7/16 x 1 = 9.03 so you get about a 9" pitch. Just solve for the radius to get any other desired pitch.

However, I just realized that the A2Z jig, which is great and is what you are getting, does it by fixing the radius to 2" (or 4" or 6", but 2" for minis or micros) and then you can precisely determine the blade angle needed at this distance for a desired pitch. In that case, you would set the blade angle at about 35.6 degrees at 2" to get about a 9" pitch (the A2Z jig shows that 36 gives a 9.1 pitch). The second photo shows the A2Z jig, the prop in the photo has an angle of about 33 degrees at 2", and if you look at the number right next to 33 on the base it's 8.2, so the prop has about an 8.2" pitch. The nice thing about the A2Z scale is that you don't have to do any calculations because all the pitches are given for each angle right on the scale. It's my favorite scale to accurately check pitch, even though I still use the Nolan jig when building. It's a little delicate so I like to leave it at home; the Jones Jig is good for the toolbox because it's indestructible.

With some rubber, wood, ultrafilm, the pitch gauge, some .01 wire, thrust bearings, and Teflon washers, you should be good to go for a bunch of planes. PS - I actually like the A2Z sixpack dual bearings the best, you can bend them so that its a little shorter and the arms are longer and so it clears the shaft nicely that way. Good luck!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 11, 2014, 11:13:12 PM
Larry, thanks so much for the pics and your explanation. I can't to wait to get that pitch gauge and put it to use. For now for the blade shape I will be doing the cylinder thing until I research enough to understand how to cut & carve prop blocks.
Your pics are great. Now I can see that gauge in use and better understand how it is used. Between you & Mike I am finally starting to get a grasp on prop assembly.

Thanks again to both of you for all the help!

PS... Larry, A2Z has the size sheet A/B balsa you mentioned in various weights, from 3 to 7#. What weight would you recommend? C they are out of stock.

Regards,
Jimmy



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 11, 2014, 11:39:48 PM
Thanks, you know what they say about pictures. Its a tough call on the blades, I'm a little conservative (don't like to use too low density) so I usually ask for the 4-6 pound range, but take whatever I can get!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 11, 2014, 11:54:50 PM
Oops, I see you were asking about the A/B wood, but there again I usually go for around 5# on that, if you read the Coslick article, you'll see he generally uses in the 4-6# range for his EZB, some other plans also have the densities on them.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 29, 2014, 10:27:48 AM
Hello Larry,
I finally got my wood & supplies. woo hoo! I will be building this guy & an LPP.

I am looking at the prop spar info on various posts here & the plans. It looks like you start out with .062 (1/16?)and just sand it down to .050 then tapered at the ends. Looking at .050 translating to 1/20, would it be ok to just start with cutting it from 1/20 C sheet? Or should I start with the thicker wood & sand it down to get to that size?

Thanks!
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 29, 2014, 11:04:42 AM
FWIW - I've been using an A2Z pitch gauge for many years. One problem that I've had is that the wood piece with the prop holder was able to rock from side to side a good bit. Since I use the device to set pitch AND tracking this made the pitch setting less accurate than desirable and the tracking setting very difficult.

The fix was very simple and probably took about 5 minutes. On the prop holder end of the plastic base there are 3 holes but the middle one is not used for the locating pins. I assembled the gauge and then drilled thru the middle hole into the wood part of the prop holder. I threaded an M10 flat head screw into the drilled hole. I chamfered the hole on the bottom of the base so the screw head didn't protrude.

When I use the gauge I put the screw in and tighten it enough to make the prop holder rigid.

You could do the same thing with the other end of the gauge but that end is much less critical than the end that holds the prop.

I destroyed the original metal prop holder some years ago. The one shown in the picture is an IMS prop holder that's about 15 years old.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 29, 2014, 01:53:27 PM
Hey Jimmy, now that you received the supplies you should be in building heaven!

WRT the spars - if you start with .050, then by the time you round it I think it will be inevitably smaller (though I've been using .045 spars lately, so you could go that route), that's why I start with the 1/16 (.0625). If you use the sanding blocks, it only takes a few strokes to get it down to .050, in fact I've overdone it a few times with the wingposts (they ended up smaller than 1/32).

Olbill - nice solution for the pitch gauge. That's strange about the rocking, I have two of them (home and toolbox) and have had exactly the opposite problem - they are incredibly tight so once you get them in and seated properly they are very hard to remove. That's led to two problems - the pins pull out when you remove it (easy fix with some CA), and in one case I actually cracked the wood trying to get the holder out! So now I'm very careful if I have to remove them - I push the pins from the bottom so as not to stress the holders. I also tried leaving it assembled in the toolbox, but that looks like a good way to end up breaking the pointer.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 29, 2014, 02:08:54 PM
Yep - I wouldn't want to chance leaving mine put together.

I've had mine so long that the rocking problem may just be from years of wear and tear.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 29, 2014, 02:46:52 PM
Thx for the tip on the pitch gauge Bill. I will be getting mine out of the bag for the first time tonight after I get the kids settled into bed. Can't wait to check it out.

Larry, thx for the info on the spars. I have both 1/16 & 1/20. I can't believe how little that would be to be used as a prop spar. This small light weight stuff amazes me. I about fell over when I saw how small the bearings are! I think starting bigger is better so I don't end up too flimsy. Though even at 1/16 it just seems like it would be too flimsy to someone who doesn't know. I would use C grain for the spar right? As it is stiffer... ?

Thanks for the help guys.
Jimmy



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 29, 2014, 03:21:24 PM
Olbill - I've also had mine for a few decades, but never took it apart that much (since it was a hassle anyway) except to change from mini to EZB. Thanks for the warning about what will happen when it wears too much! Since I have two of them, now I'm thinking of just leaving one set for mini and the other for EZB (which I'm not building right now anyway) so I don't have to keep pulling out the holders.

Now that you got me thinking about this, I have an idea about how to modify the Jim Jones gauge. The nice part about the Jones gauge is that its steel and heavy plastic and is indestructible, so it's actually the one I've had in my toolbox. It has a magnetic 45, really clever of Jim, so you can position it or take it off easily, its in a photo I posted earlier. The only part I never liked about it is that the prop shaft is on the 45 and there's some wiggle that way. But now that I think about it, it should be an easy modification to use a prop holder on the vertical part, like on the A2Z gauge, and then you just have a movable 45, I could mark the pitch locations on the base. I'll post pictures when I get around to doing it, but I think that would make a great, easy to take apart and indestructible tool box pitch gauge! Yes I know I'm being overly cautious but I'm a little obsessive about keeping my tools in good shape.

Jimmy - no, you want to use A/B grain for the prop spar, you want it to be able to flex without breaking, the C is only used for the ribs and the prop blades. I'd go for starting with the 1/16" sq., then get some practice rounding that. It's actually pretty easy with the blocks, I've also done the twirling in-between sandpaper approach, but I frequently broke them when they got small, like 1/32", but that has never happened with the blocks, and its incredibly easy to do tapers.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 29, 2014, 04:10:15 PM
Ah, thanks for the clarification on the spar Larry. That makes sense.
I am thinking I will start practicing making props for my free time tonight.

Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: leop on March 29, 2014, 08:12:02 PM
I modified my A2Z pitch gauge by routing a 0.020" deep by 0.5" wide slot down the middle.  I glued a steel strip into the slot (actually a 0.020" K&S 0.500" wide stainless, but magnetic, strip).  Then I glued small neodymium magnets to the bottom of prop holder and gauge holder (in holes I drilled in the wood).  This makes for a steady fixture that can quickly and easily be taken apart.  A picture is attached.  I also built a longer base piece out of a piece of oak so that I could measure at more than a 6" radius.  And, I drilled the locating (or additional holes in the original A2Z base) at 1" intervals for more measuring distances.

I like the spring prop shaft holder.  Some have removed this spring holder and glued a small neodymium magnet between the "V's" to hold the prop shaft.  This works well as long as one uses shims to make sure the magnet surface is level with a line through the bottom of the "V's" so that the prop shaft still is held by the "V's" but does not bend in touching the magnet.

Jeff Hood made great semi-copy of the A2Z pitch gauge but used magnet strips alone, with no locating holes to have an infinite number of measuring stations.  His gauge folds up nicely to fit in a small box made from the base.  I just use a plastic pencil box I bought for $1 at the school supplies section of a dollar store.

LeoP


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 29, 2014, 09:24:50 PM
Now that's cool! I really like your modification LeoP, it adds the magnetic simplicity of the Jones approach and makes it much more portable, the next time I break the holder I think I'll try your modification (though I'd have to get a router), nice idea. I'm still going to modify the Jones gauge since I have it anyway, might as well use it, let's see how it works. I also like the spring shaft holder, it works great, in fact I'm going to get another one to use for the modified Jones gauge. I also have a nice compact box that the Jones gauge just fits into, so its good for the toolbox. But adding the magnets definitely solves the portability problem for the A2Z!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 29, 2014, 11:57:53 PM
Very interesting stuff on the gauges guys.

Larry, I went to the LHS today as they always had a good selection of wire. But the smallest they had was .015. I see it is .008 on the plan for the prop shaft. This is almost twice that. Do you think that amount of weight will make that much difference in its flight? I plan on hitting target weights on everything else, maybe even try to better them if possible. I spent the rest of my hobby budget on Ron Williams Indoor book and a winder today so I won't be placing any online orders any time soon. I suppose I could try to get the LHS to order some .008.

But I will just use the .015 if you think it would be OK. ???

Thx
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: leop on March 30, 2014, 08:37:53 AM
All gauges (sizes) of wire can be bought at a local music store that sells guitar strings.  You want to buy plain steel strings (tin plated is just fine).  These fit either acoustic or electric guitars.  The gauge size (a number) is the same as the diameter in thousandths of an inch.  The strings are made of quality music wire.  Sizes as small as 0.008" are normally available or can be ordered and the sizes go up to at least 022 (0.022").  My local store orders 007 guage for me.

LeoP


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Art356A on March 30, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
I missed the pitch gauge discussion by a couple of days, but here's a more parsimonious (my middle name) rig. This cross arrangement is 1/2" high, and should be set up near the edge of the board, as in the second picture. This is so the first blade clears the surface when you set up the second one.

Once you know your blade angle and radius combination (this one was a simple 45º at 50%), mark the radius on the blade and spar with a fine Sharpie dot (both marks are under the rubber clamp, so you can't see them). The blade and spar are then secured to the cross (at the selected radius), the angle template is pinned down and the propshaft is secured to it. This template only has a 45º mark, so far. Apply thinned white glue to both sides of the spar with a fine brush. When dry, set up the other blade.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Dave Andreski on March 30, 2014, 11:58:32 AM
All gauges (sizes) of wire can be bought at a local music store that sells guitar strings.  You want to buy plain steel strings (tin plated is just fine).  These fit either acoustic or electric guitars.  The gauge size (a number) is the same as the diameter in thousandths of an inch.  The strings are made of quality music wire.  Sizes as small as 0.008" are normally available or can be ordered and the sizes go up to at least 022 (0.022").  My local store orders 007 guage for me.

LeoP

Jimmy,
Leo is correct of course.
Here are two examples. The length will allow you to practice/make many bearings.
Dave


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 30, 2014, 12:43:55 PM
Jimmy - I mentioned earlier that I ended up using .010 wire, not .008. Actually I think if you have .015 wire that's fine, it will fit in the thrust bearings you have. If you want to go smaller, then as Leo and Dave mentioned a 10 gauge guitar string is .010", I don't like to go smaller than that, but that's just a personal preference. Remember that we're just talking living room flying here, not the Nats! I wouldn't get too worried about the weight at this point, just keep track of the weights of everything and then you'll know on the next one where it needs to be lightened. Build it the best you can and get flying!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 30, 2014, 01:10:09 PM
Thanks for the wire info Leo & Dave. And here all this time I knew it was "music wire". I keep forgetting to just go to the music store.

Larry, I kinda figured I would do just that and build it anyways just being something to goof around with at home. I will be doing an LPP and actually try to do everything to the weights specified as I might give competition a shot at the Indoor Fling in May. That being said I need to get some .020 as that is what is on the plans for the plan I am using.

From my time doing scratch build foamies the smallest I ever got was .015 that I used for my "J-Bug" design. I used it for control rods. I used to think  that would be the smallest MW I would ever touch. Little did I know...  ;)

Art, nice set up, thx for sharing!

Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 30, 2014, 01:30:09 PM
I missed the pitch gauge discussion by a couple of days, but here's a more parsimonious (my middle name) rig. This cross arrangement is 1/2" high, and should be set up near the edge of the board, as in the second picture. This is so the first blade clears the surface when you set up the second one.

Once you know your blade angle and radius combination (this one was a simple 45º at 50%), mark the radius on the blade and spar with a fine Sharpie dot (both marks are under the rubber clamp, so you can't see them). The blade and spar are then secured to the cross (at the selected radius), the angle template is pinned down and the propshaft is secured to it. This template only has a 45º mark, so far. Apply thinned white glue to both sides of the spar with a fine brush. When dry, set up the other blade.

Art
The setup looks nice but since you have a tissue tube hub why wouldn't you build the spar/blade assemblies separately and then put them in the hub? What you're doing makes more sense than trying to make a one piece spar but not quite as much sense as building two separate spar/blade assemblies.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Art356A on March 30, 2014, 01:49:16 PM
Ah! All is not as it appears to the naked eye. I was talked out of the poly tubes and bass spars for this project, and into my first attempt at a one-piece balsa spar. Naturally, it broke in handling, and the red thing is a light wrap of Esaki around the repair. So assuming that the spar stays whole, it's a nice working fixture.

Here's a new thing, a replacement for all those heavy bolts that the hamfisted among us knock around and break ribs with. I cut up a bunch of them on the bandsaw, which has a blade with a 1/32 kerf (same as the average hacksaw blade) and then run a piece of scrap 1/32 thru the slot a couple of times to clear the fuzz.
The other thing is a simple clamp to hold the abnormal LE in place.   


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on March 30, 2014, 02:15:20 PM
Art, looking closely at that pic, is the LE piece (abnormal) flat on the bottom? Meaning a triangular cross section?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Art356A on March 30, 2014, 02:49:41 PM
Naw, it's a square, tipped up 45º. There's an A-6 out there that's specified that way. A little off-putting at first, but that's the way the designer wants it, and it's not that hard to do using the clamps. Make them with a scrap of 1/8 and a square file.   


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 30, 2014, 04:03:32 PM
The designer has had pretty good luck with those spars!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on April 19, 2014, 01:41:07 PM
Finally got around to modifying my Jim Jones torque meter. The original is shown in a photo on the second page above. What I never liked about it is that there is too much play when the prop shaft is on the diagonal, so its tricky to get accurate measurements. I modified it by gluing some bass on the end (with two coats of dope) and using an A2Z prop holder. Jim had distances for pitches from 18 to 36 on the jig, I replaced this with distances from 8 to 36, glued it on, and covered it with a thin piece of shelving plastic. I also made marks for the pitches I'm currently using the most (9 to 15) for both mini and micros. Much more accurate, fairly indestructible, and it fits nicely in my flight box! I'm pretty happy with the modified meter.

The only other thing I'm thinking about is I really like the idea Leo mentioned of using a small magnet to hold the prop shaft. I found some small neodymium magnets about 1/16" thick online, I think that will work, could always file the aluminum a little bit if need be (I never tried filing a magnet?), I guess epoxy might hold the magnet in place, we'll see. If it works I'll be able to easily (one hand instead of two) pop the prop in place, really neat!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Art356A on April 19, 2014, 02:26:02 PM
The designer has had pretty good luck with those spars!

I remember asking him if the rotated spar was an aerodynamic or a structural thing. He said it was aerodynamic. It must be just a side benefit then, but in saveral mid-airs, the other guys always came out second best.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on April 19, 2014, 11:17:36 PM
A6 rules specify that all spars are a minimum of 1/16" square. I just have a problem with a 1/16" deep board on the front of the wing. It made more sense to me to have the point of the spar facing forward. It seems to work.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: leop on April 20, 2014, 12:12:48 AM
Jeff Hood made a great pitch gauge that was an improvement on the Jim Jones and A2Z versions.  It was his idea to use a magnet to hold the prop shaft.  Jeff's old (and now gone) website had a set of pictures and instructions for copying Jeff's pitch gauge.  The article is no longer available but Jeff sent some of the pictures nearly five years ago.  The pictures are below and include some views of the magnet in an A2Z prop shaft holder.

LeoP


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: leop on April 20, 2014, 12:14:02 AM
And here are the last two pictures of Jeff Hodd's pitch gauge.

LeoP


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on April 20, 2014, 12:56:10 PM
Wow, really nice pitch gauge, thanks for posting the pictures, it's helpful, I definitely have to try using a magnet to hold the prop shaft. Really nice the way it folds up for transport as well!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on May 02, 2014, 04:16:07 PM
I received some magnets today, very cheap at 50 cents each, the one's that are 1/8" round by 1/16" thick work with the prop holder. I glued one with a drop of thick CA on the holder for my Jim Jones gauge and it worked perfectly, the shaft lies all the way in the groove and nice and flat, so I also modified my two A2Z gauges. The holder in one A2Z gauge had slightly deeper v-slots, so I had to file the holder a little bit to lower the magnet slightly, had to do it twice to get it perfect. Before I had to use two hands and, maybe I'm clumsy, but I always caught the hook on the wire hold-down. Now you can easily pop in the props with one hand and easily take them out to rotate. What an improvement, nice idea by Jeff!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on May 09, 2014, 11:09:05 PM
Hey Larry, how goes the Micro-stick R&D?

I am plodding along little by little with my LPP. Quite frankly the build is kicking my butt. But I am getting closer to having my first genuine indoor build under my belt. I am anxious to get to this one. I am bummed that I forgot about getting the .024 when I placed my order so the smallest I have is the 1/32 which I only have in C and then my 1/20 that I have in all grains.

I considered just using the thickness I have, the 1/20 (.050) but I know this would greatly increase weight. Or sand the .050 down to the .024 you recommended.

Do you think the extra weight would be enough to really have an effect?

As I think more about it I am leaning towards sanding it down to the right size, I was just hoping to not add too many steps. With my build time so few & far between, the least amount of steps is tempting.

Your thoughts?

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on May 10, 2014, 01:48:12 PM
Hi Jimmy, the micro R&D is on hold right now, given that there have finally been some calm days I've been gearing up with my Wakes and Coupes for some outdoor flying. I just got an altimeter for my Wake thanks to another thread here at HP, so I'm excited to get out and try that the next calm day.

I've followed your LPP build, looks pretty good, seems like you just have to do covering at this point, did you get to that? Also wondering how the indoor fling went? I thought we'd get some reports on that but it's been pretty quiet lately.

WRT the micro, you have .032 C-grain so I would use that for the ribs, there's only three in the wing anyway. You have .050 A/B, so you can use that for the outlines, just try to cut it about 1/32" thick and that's probably close enough. You could sand it a few strokes, but I would just cut it thin - if you have a stripper, make it .020 so you end up with .050 x .020 instead of .040 x .024. Otherwise just eyeball around .030. The component weights I give on the plan are consistent with my 2nd and 3rd micros, so they are useful references, just keep track of the weights and you'll see what needs to be changed on the next one.

One thing I like about the micros is that they build incredibly fast, there isn't much there! So I would just get it built and get flying, you can then make refinements on the next one. That way you're getting right to the fun. Plus I've actually learned a few things from my living room experimentation. Larry


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on May 11, 2014, 12:07:34 AM
Yeah I am looking forward to building a quick little guy. Might have been a better idea to build this guy first, them the LPP. I just had the thought I might have had it ready for the Indoor Fling. No such luck. The Indoor Fling was very cool. Though it looked like a smaller turn out than expected. I brought the whole fam and the kids got antsy after a while so I couldn't gawk and chit chat like I wanted to but ah well. I did get to meet George Bredehoft and chat with him. He even gave my daughter a Phantom Flash kit which was super cool! THANKS GEORGE!!!

I will post more about that on my thread later.

I haven't posted or done much building as I have been busier than I ever want to be with being short handed at work. Working early mornings before regular work hours and then at night after kids go to bed. I am just about ready to start covering. I got the wood today for my covering frame and hope to build that during the day tomorrow and maybe take a shot at covering tomorrow night after kids go to bed. We'll see.

As for my Micro when the time comes I think I will just take your advice & cut the .050 thin and just build it. Can't wait to try this guy and have another plane for inside the house. My Butterfly is great but certainly not capable of 2+ minute times under a household ceiling. Like you said, build it & fly it then start to tinker.

Can't wait...  ;)

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on November 22, 2014, 08:52:41 AM
So here we are, finally building the Micro. Finished the LPP and added extra incentive when I crushed my beloved Butterfly when I pushed through the box lid it was in and flattened it.
Built the templates. Took my 1/20 and sanded it down. No mics so this is just a TLAR affair. I just tried to make the .050 between 3/5 & 4/5th thick. Then cut strips and about half that thickness to shoot for somewhere around .040 x .025 and just using that for all of it.

First soaked some strips & did the wing which turned out great. I have 1/32 C and used that for ribs. So light with only 1 glue joint but had a heck of a time getting the wood to bend around as needed without issues, even wet. Though it sure dries out fast. Then tried the sharper bends of the stab and rudder and just couldn't do it. Those bends are too sharp for me to get even wet. Not enough patience doesn't help either since my build time is few & far between. Called it a night as at least the wing was done.

Was so proud of that wing and then the next day I made the stupid mistake of leaving it on the counter ledge and my wife walked by it, it blew off and then she stepped on it... DONE.

That was a couple weeks ago.

Last night I made another but just went with straight angles. I can totally tell the difference in weight but ah well. Grabbing the flattened wing and the new one and letting them drop to the floor at the same time the new wing gets there a bit faster.

The stab and rudder will hopefully be next weekend. Here's some pics.

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: JoseMiguel on December 03, 2014, 06:58:26 AM
Might I suggest you design guidelines that rotate clockwise in a radius of 10 '


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 07, 2014, 02:34:26 PM
Hi Jimmy - your wings look really nice! too bad about the first one, you did a good job there. I like the swept back front on the second one.

Yes the stab outline can be tricky (I've gone over to a more slightly more elliptical shape in later versions), I think you'll be fine if you just go for square or angled. The trick is that you have to keep steady tension on the strip as you pull it around, otherwise it will crimp. I usually just hold the template and strip with one finger (or tape down one end of the strip) then, while gently pulling it to keep it tight, wrap it around in a smooth motion. But again I think square is fine, I mainly like the round stuff because it appears to be stronger with respect to hitting things! Did you get the stab/rud done yet?





Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 09, 2014, 10:58:44 PM
Hey Larry! Thx for the encouraging words. I see what you mean about the crimping. That's exactly what was happening. The swept back front came from the Novice LPP I built. Which, btw I just may be able to maiden at church tomorrow night.  ;D I figured the shape was easy and looks good to boot. The stab is built. Just a simple rectangle. The rudder will be the same. Just so very busy right now I have no build time. I got the motor stick done. Plan on getting some .08 wire from the music store for the rear hook and prop shaft. So I have a lot to do yet. I will just follow the plans for the prop regarding pitch.

Oh and haven't covered the stab or wing yet either. Planned on crumbling the film first on this one then maybe just spreading it out over foam. Might make a small frame and try it like I did the LPP. Not sure which way I will go with that yet.

Will post more pics once I get more done.

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Hepcat on December 12, 2014, 08:11:58 PM
Jimmy,
I always enjoy your enthusiastic posts but I wonder if you should slow down and get some sleep now and then!  Your typing slips gave me a smile but they could cause problems one day.  I am sure that you found the .08 wire too heavy for the rear hook but I was more worried about you crumbling the film, I hope you meant crumpling.  To be serious, I have not tried opening crumpled film on foam and, indeed, I have always gone for a very smooth, hard surface, like glass.  I suggest that you wait for comment from others.
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 12, 2014, 11:00:37 PM
Hey John,
Glad I can entertain some.  ;)

You are quite observant. You pegged me. My wife asks me to stop and take a rest often. Life for me is quite busy. I actually pine for the day it slows down some. lol

I see the mistakes in my typing too. The rear hook & shaft would be .008.

As for the film I was talking about how folks ball it up and then open it for use. Though on a plane this small that might not provide much of the intended benefit and actually just be a step I should probably skip.

I mention the whole laying the film down over soft foam and then laying the wing over it with adhesive on the frame. I saw it on a vid once where a builder had a soft foam surface and laid the film over it and then just slowly rolled the wing over it after spritzing a bit of 3m77 of course. I just can't remember who that builder was.

I did watch Alan Cohen's vid of covering using a frame with the film stretched over it and that is how I did my LPP and really liked that method. That is probably how I will do this one too.

Awe heck, I just want to get this little guy done so I can fly in the living room. I miss flying since the Butterfly met it's unfortunate demise.  ::)

I really appreciate your concern and interest in my adventure and willingness to help. I will definitely keep my ears open for more advice too. Stay tuned...  ;D

Warm regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on November 01, 2015, 08:35:16 PM
wow, been almost a year and I am now just getting back to this build. Real life had taken over but finding time again and want to get this little guy done.

Larry, I have to ask and hope you are still monitoring this thread...
I am looking at the plans and the formula (bottom left corner) that seems to set where the CG and the location of the wing posts are. I see the side view drawing of the plane. Is that drawing true to where these items are or just a visible general reference? If I need to compute using that formula I have to admit it is going over the head that houses my tired brain. I am hoping you or someone that understands it can explain how I use it to locate the wing posts.

Looks like i am able to go back to Friday night build sessions. Last night I tried a failed attempt at fixing my broken stab on my LPP that never saw its first flight and ended up scrapping the whole stab. Need to build another and really don't feel like getting back into that serious delicate build again. So I would rather spend time on something I can get done and fly quicker. I am naturally in too much of a hurry to get the fragile LPP done properly so sticking with the micro until its flying.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated and Larry, I am hoping to hear if there was ever any other R&D on this guy. I know you shelved it for some outdoor adventures. I want to get some embryo building going too.

Closing in on the cold holiday weather so it's a perfect time to get living room birds up!  ;D

warmest regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on November 02, 2015, 03:10:03 PM
Hi Jimmy - been awhile since I looked at it, the formula given on the plans by the way is for a 3 7/8" long tail boom (not 4"). The plan doesn't show the actual wing location. First, locate the balance point for the completed plane in the usual manner. Then measure how far back the balance point is from the nose. You can then just plug that in the formula and it tells you the rear wing post location.

For example, suppose the balance point is 2" from the nose. Then the rear post is at 1.247 x 2 - .133 = 2.36" from the nose. That's it. Of course, you could also just locate the post in terms of percentage of the wing chord in the usual way if you want as well.

There hasn't been any R&D lately, it's discouraging not having a regular decent place to fly indoors, whereas I'm out practically every week with my outdoor planes for most of the year, really having fun. However, the weather has been too bad in February the last few years for any outdoor flying, so that's when I get more motivated for indoor (not coincidental that this thread was started at the end of January!), though your enthusiasm can be contagious, and I did have some other modifications that I wanted to check out...  :)  Looked like you were pretty far along Jimmy, you should be able to get up and flying soon!



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on November 05, 2015, 10:24:10 PM
Hey thx for the explanation Larry. In 2 spots tho you mention "in the usual way". Keep in mind all my experience is rc foamies. I have never done stick & tissue rubber powered flight like this.
My usual way for finding cg with planes I built was take the completed airframe, wing & all and test glide using temporary weight like clay or a chip clip. Slide the weight around until I got a nice flat glide and mark the cg.

So with a plane like this aren't I trying to determine the rear wing post location "before" permanently mounting the wing?

or better yet, what is the "usual" way to find CG on a build like this? I have not a clue. What first comes to mind is laying the wing on the stick after the stabs & bearing are on and moving it around until it balances flat???

"locate the post in terms of percentage of the wing chord in the usual way if you want as well." This is another "usual way" that I am not familiar with.  :-[

Going take a shot at cutting the motor stick & boom tomorrow night and maybe get those going so I have a build session or 2 before I will get started on finding CG.

Any advice would be oh so greatly appreciated.  :)

Have a blessed Friday!
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on November 07, 2015, 01:44:55 PM
I thought this would be in the Coslick article, which I know you have, however now that I look at it, he doesn't seem to mention it, which is kind of odd, unless I missed it. In any case, assemble the complete plane except for the wing and put a loose motor on. Then wrap a thread around the motorstick and move it back and forth until it hangs horizontally, that's the CG.

The usual approach is to then locate the rear post as a percentage of the wing chord. For example, if the wing chord is 3", then the rear post is located .6" behind the CG so that 2.4" (80%) is in front of the CG. If you do it the CMOS way, as on the plan, then you locate it as I explained above. I hope this helps, you should be getting close to flying!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on November 07, 2015, 02:12:01 PM
ah that helps a lot Larry. Thx!
Well..... I didn't work on the micro stick last night as planned. I ended up having a good week and bought a Guillows Lancer and couldn't resist working on that instead.

But I want to get back to the micro stick as now I have clarity thx to your explanation of doing CG. With the incoming weather it's the micro i'll be flying more anyways so I need to get back to it. I just love building and with the Lancer I knew I could build more than research and with only about 2 hours I wanted to build instead of read.  ;D

Your explanation of getting CG makes total sense. I should be able to get to the finish line from here without much trouble. Can't wait to fly this little guy!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: fitnezz on November 08, 2015, 04:54:03 AM
Great models and topic, a lot of valuable informations here :)

I have a feeling its a good place to ask following question I have. It is about the angle of the propeller blade on the forming jar.
I see on the plan: 17deg. On diferent plans for diferent or even same diameters I see diferent values. Like it does not matter that much if it is 15 or 20.
So I am a bit confused since the diference in that angle obviously would give diferent prop pitch for the same pitch gauge setting.
I would expect for the 5" prop on the 3" jar degree to be bigger. The chart I was using says it should be about 26deg for the 3" jar. I attach the picture with diagram.
What is the correct way of calculating this angle?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: frash on November 08, 2015, 10:44:13 AM
Fitness,

Look in the Builders' Plan Gallery/Airfoils and Propellers for "Bucket Props". One or the other of these two Excel spreadsheets might help. If the camber of the blade seems excessive, try a larger diameter conical cup. A bucket obviously is too large for a Ministick prop. A coffee or yogurt cup might work well as a form. I've done several  Ministick props. A conical form is a little better than a cylinder, but a cylinder can also be used if nothing better is found.

Fred Rash


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: fitnezz on November 09, 2015, 04:34:51 AM
Frash,

Thanks I saw theese before. I always use what is on the plan for the given blade and always use 3" jar as the form. This microstick from that post has prop 5 dia and 17 deg slant on 3" jar. Author of this post mentioned different props he tests with P/D 1.6 to 2.3 (afair). I just wonder if using this 17 degree twist those P/D are not way smaller than author expects. ( hope not :) )


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on November 11, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
You're right, thanks for catching that! When I made the plan, I just stuck in the angle that I was using for my EZB props decades ago and figured that I'd make the correct calculation later, but then forgot about it. Ron Williams gives the formula in the appendix of his book, I just tried a quick calculation and for a 5" prop with 9" pitch it comes out to 31 degrees, close to the 26 you got from the chart, so that sounds about right (Ron points out some limitations to the approach). The angle also changes as the pitch changes.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: fitnezz on November 11, 2015, 06:37:50 PM
Great, thanks for the answer and the formula source. Good to know, that this chart gives kind of correct angles values  :)




Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on November 13, 2015, 11:40:08 PM
Larry,
I have the mentioned .008 wire for the shaft and rear hook. I also have the little IMS bearings from A2Z. The ones that come as a 6 pack. The .008 wire is still too big to fit in the frt hole and rr slot. Did you open them up somehow? I can't imagine doing that with anything but a micro drill bit which I do not have. Now I have the bigger Harlan style bearings I used for my LPP that will fit but they are probably 4x's as heavy and so much bigger.

Any advice? Is there wire thinner than .008? I am thinking not. At least my research on guitar strings hasn't found any.

I suppose I could always just bend my own. Just didn't want to if not necessary. The IMS bearings are so sweet.

Regards,
Jimmy


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on November 14, 2015, 11:33:28 AM
Something isn't right, if I remember correctly the A2Z bearings take up to .015" wire, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, I ended up using .01" wire. So your wire must not be .008" or it would easily fit in the bearing.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on November 14, 2015, 11:45:31 AM
Ya know, it has been almost 2 years since I started on this and now that I think about it, I may have never even gotten the .008 yet. I bought some but now that I crunch my tired and forgetful brain I only bought guitar string from the local music shop once, and that was .015. Yes you are correct. It is probably that .015 I was trying. I think I intended on getting the .008 and never did. I just needed you to help me jog my memory. lol

Now I am back to excited again.  ;D

Just to show how long it has been and how much I have forgotten, I was all excited last night to get some time to work on this guy. I made the boom and motor stick and started looking into bending the bearing & get it mounted and that's when I started looking at the bearings I have and my available wire. Then when I was cleaning everything up I saw in the bottom of my box the motor stick that I had already made almost 2 years ago complete with properly bent bearing already glued in place.  :-[

Looks like I am headed to the music shop today.  ;)


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: fitnezz on March 13, 2016, 07:32:32 PM
You guys complain about flying space. Still you dont know how tough it gets sometimes ;)

This post is cool. Inspired me to do 5 inches airplanes to fly around.
I made small vid how I do it. It could help someone starting up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGmP43LpLGk

6 inches work better for me, with 5" I dont get 3 minutes, but close to. 6" does above 4, when the good wind blows ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IggsJ_GMgN8

No indoor materials used btw. Covering with super slim sandwich bags. My lightest micro -> 0.33g.

best regards



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 19, 2017, 07:07:54 PM
Well, just to summarize this thread, unfortunately my attempt to get back into indoor flying nearly 4 years ago was a complete failure (been doing a lot of outdoor flying though). I flew in various spaces in the University where I work for a few months, but without a regular 'real' flying space, where you can land without hitting desks, one inevitably loses interest. I want to see the torque, winds, height, flight time, etc. and need a real flying space for that. So no indoor attempts since 2014, and no real indoor flying since Columbia 1992.  :(

However, I recently found out that there is indoor flying in Teaneck Armory, and more important, there are regular buses from Port Authority that go there! I can walk to PA from my apartment. So I'm excited about going there tomorrow. I have two ministicks that have been sitting around, and 2 micro sticks ready to go. Last week I thought I'd try my hand again at some indoor building since there's been none since 2014. I made a new shop recently, so everything was packed and it took me a few days to find some stuff. So I made a new ministick, same as the previous but different elliptical stab, pictures below. This is the first time I've tried OS film and I really like it, easy to handle plus it cuts really easy, just kind of melts away from the hot pen, whereas the Mylar took more heat. Really nice stuff.

My last mini was 0.43 g on the nose but this one came out a little light at 0.394 grams, I'm sure because the OS film is really light! Not a problem, I could always add a little weight but I'll wait because with adjustments/repairs it will probably gain a little weight anyway. I have some 7 x 12 and 7 x 13 props, so I made a new 7 dia x 14 pitch prop, tried it in the living room and it was pretty nice, new plane floated around at what seemed to be slower than usual speed, so far so good. Can't wait to give it a shot in the armory. I'll probably be having 90's flashbacks for a while just being in an indoor space, with indoor modelers and airplanes!




Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 20, 2017, 12:13:53 AM
Sounds like fun - good luck with that. Indoor certainly has it's charms - I haven't flown seriously(sort of) since the 90's as well. I was flying a EZE B then before any sort of film!(condenser paper).

Merry Christmas
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 20, 2017, 06:20:13 PM
OK, did some flying! First up, my 1992 mini. Did over 5'40" (had trouble starting the stopwatch), so that's not too bad first time out. Unfortunately, it ended up in an H-rafter on the next flight, gone for good! My new ministick flew really nice, lighter and lower rpm, but got hung up on the second flight with some minor damage upon retrieval, didn't get any video of it. Finally, initially had some trouble with my 2014 mini, but got it going before calling it a day, also the only video I took (too busy flying). I haven't posted many videos this year, so I put up today's adventure here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnWYfe5U7PM  Looking forward to some serious trimming the next few sessions!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 20, 2017, 09:48:58 PM
Sounds like fun - good luck with that. Indoor certainly has it's charms - I haven't flown seriously(sort of) since the 90's as well. I was flying a EZE B then before any sort of film!(condenser paper).

Merry Christmas
John
Sorry, with all the excitement forgot to say Merry Christmas to you as well John! I might be doing some quick indoor building over the holidays.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 21, 2017, 05:02:11 PM
I really enjoyed that Larry. What a site although the trusses are a worry. That's the challenge though - longer lighter motors to keep the climb down and the duration up. I was a little surprised to see that you had to take a 40min bus trip to get there.
Thanks for the video.
Have fun and happy building
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 21, 2017, 08:20:26 PM
Thanks John, glad you enjoyed it, I debated putting it up because I didn't get any video of the new mini! It flies slower than the one in the video.

Those trusses are a worry, I lost my first mini inside one, no way to get it back, and my new one ended up on them twice, but it stuck out a little and I was able to get it back with a 50' pole (thanks to Tom and Dave for bringing that!). Though it's a 50' ceiling, so I guess it's Category 2, the trusses start at about 30 feet, so I think you just have to fly it like Category 1; I'm scared of those trusses now! Thanks to all those years flying in Columbia's 100+ foot ceiling, I'm really a high-ceiling flyer, so this low-ceiling stuff will be a learning experience.

Trip out was 40 min because the bus made a lot of local stops, they weren't on the bus schedule so I was a little nervous, but it stops right in front of the armory so you can't miss it. Ride back made fewer stops and was like 25 min. Bus wasn't crowded so I think I''ll bring my 27 year old EzB next time out and maybe build something else small, like a no-cal.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 03, 2018, 05:13:36 PM
Another fun day at Teaneck! First 90 minutes I spent helping a young girl who was given a plane to build for the Science Olympiad, but the school didn't have anyone who knew anything about flying to help her. We had to do some field surgery - cut off and re-do the nose from upthrust (yikes) to downthrust, extend the tail boom as far back as possible, add some turn and slight incidence, tilt the stab, some experimenting with the rubber, and it went from diving into the ground to a nice minute-long flight! She was thrilled once it got going and wanted to continue but had to go to school. My good deed for the day.

Finally got to fly the new ministick, flies nice, and I kept the torque/winds low, but still ended up landing on a heater so it was gone, barely got to fly it! Video'd it and put it in my A6 video. Already have another mini under way.

I just discovered 'A6' which looks really fun so I designed and built one over the weekend, with a nice paddle blade prop! Flew right off the board, I didn't even do anything. Got in two flights, video'd the second one and put it in the A6 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjn5j2WrHlo

I didn't want to risk losing another plane so that was it for the day. I'll make some more A6 props for next weeks romp, I knew this was going to be a fun category!



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 03, 2018, 05:21:55 PM
Oops, forgot to post the pics. Weight-wise I was lucky and it came out to exactly 1.2 grams (wing and stab are really light so I left the fuselage a little heavier). Tempted to build another since my loss-rate at Teaneck appears to be one a week!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on January 04, 2018, 06:15:51 PM
Well that's dicing with death Larry :) Very nice trim on your models. The climb on your A6 surprised me - the initial climb rate didn't look that strong. Thermals? :)
I guess you will be looking for slightly thinner section rubber now.
Do they ever service the heaters? There must be quite a few models hung up on heaters and the trusses.
Thanks for another enjoyable video.
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 04, 2018, 08:56:09 PM
Thanks John, I thought the huge paddle prop would keep it low, and I was happy with the slow climb, but I was a little surprised that it really wanted to keep going up after 30 ft. I don't like flying in the girders so I have to work on keeping them low. You got it - I'm slicing some thinner rubber for next week, the video A6 flight used some old .050 rubber I had, I'm slicing some new .045 and .040 for next week.

I've heard that they clean out the trusses once or twice a year, they throw down dozens (!) of planes and whoever is there can take them, the mini I lost two weeks ago will be in that group - it's inside the I-beam and impossible to get. For last weeks lost mini, the tail was slightly sticking off of the heater, so with the 50' pole available next week I might be able to get it down, though I don't know what kind of shape it will be in after sitting on a heater for a week!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on January 06, 2018, 05:51:19 PM
This must be a bit annoying when flying indoor. I know when I lose an outdoor FF model - it's ok if it disappears in a thermal but it's outright annoying if it can't be found even when you think you know where it is.
I'm just thinking of losing my favourite CLG recently. I saw it's general direction but it disappeared in a mess of tall (shoulder height) grass and lantana. 4 or so searches were unsuccessful

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 07, 2018, 12:29:57 PM
It is a little annoying, I've lost two minis in two flight sessions, I hope that pattern doesn't continue, I just made a third mini and if I lose it this week I'll be upset! I'm stripping thinner rubber and making flaring props now, have to get used to this low ceiling stuff.

Outdoor is a little different - I have so many planes at this point that I wouldn't mind losing some to 'thin the herd' a little, my outdoor building has greatly slowed down because I'm running out of storage space! But with RC rudder you just never seem to lose them, I can steer out of even the biggest boomer.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: ram on January 07, 2018, 01:01:08 PM
Can you tell us what size motors you are using (length and weight) and what torque you are launching at?

Subject to the above information, I suspect you may be heading in the wrong direction by going thinner.  Generally you go thinner for higher ceilings and thicker for lower ceilings.  This is because it is difficult to use the torque above the knee in the torque curve in a low ceiling without climbing into the ceiling.  If you do go thin enough to use that torque your cruise will be very weak.  In a low ceiling site you are trying to minimize climb (just enough to get to the ceiling) and maximize cruise by using the flat part of the torque curve.  This means backing off turns down to the flat part of the curve on a heavier motor that maximizes the cruise time and theoretically the time on the watch.

The above assumes you are trying to maximize the duration and not just put up safe flights and that the prop diameter and pitch (and possibly flare) are matched to the rubber.

Hopefully some others more experienced than me can chime in with their thoughts?

Rey


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 07, 2018, 07:20:08 PM
Thanks Rey, that's interesting. Right now I feel like a babe in the woods indoor-wise, it's been decades, I got very good in the old days at getting them up 100 feet with long cruises since it was a high-ceiling site, so this is very different, with rafters waiting to eat my plane at about 40 feet!

Just got started, so I'm just guessing on prop/rubber combos and haven't really gotten into details yet. Only got one flight in with the mini before it hung on the heater (shown in the video). For that I used some old .025 rubber I have, about 14" long, weighs about .45g. I wound it 2500 turns, then backed off about 1000 turns, I think the torque was in the 2.5-3 oz-in range, that seems to get it up about 45 feet. For this week, I have a new prop with more blade area, will try that with the same motor to see what happens.

For the A6, I used some old .050 rubber I have, about 17 1/2" long, weighs 1.12 grams. I think I did the same thing as for the mini - wound it to 2500 then backed off 1000, I have to pay attention to the torque this week, I think it ended up again in the 3-4 oz-in range? Motor seemed kind of big, I was thinking of using this week some .040 I recently stripped, a few inches longer, should give close to the same weight. I'm also making a slightly higher pitch prop to see what that does.



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 08, 2018, 12:23:46 PM
3-4 in-oz might be appropriate for a Wakefield (not something I know anything about). In order for you to compare your torque with others then you need to calibrate your torque meter in real in-ounces. A normal A6 launch torque for my models in a low ceiling is around .1 in-oz - depending of course on the actual site configuration. In a high ceiling like the Kibbie Dome it might be .35 in-oz or more if I can get more torque in the motor without breaking it. So it sounds like the units on your meter are off by about a factor of ten.

As others have said if you don't care about comparisons with what other fliers do then you can use any units you want to. I think this is an especially bad idea for someone starting out. Why not take advantage of the knowledge that others are willing to share?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 08, 2018, 12:38:00 PM
That was just a typo, forgot the period, haven't used the torque meter for eons and I forgot that a reading of '2.5' is .25 oz-in, also the zero was a little off and I have to remember how to reset it (it's a Geauga torque meter). But I just got started and was more focused on experimenting with different props, I'll start paying attention to the torque next time, need to get my 'indoor legs' back. Wrt what others are doing, I think I'm in the range of what I've seen reported, but I need some time to catch up on that, particularly since A6 is new to me (and I'm supposed to be reading stuff for my job, not for airplanes!)


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 09, 2018, 01:52:48 PM
Phew, finished a new mini for tomorrow's flying, first photo, and a second A6 so that I still have one to fly if the first one gets eaten! With the additional practice, I got the OS film on a little smoother, I also have a new prop with increased blade area for the mini, we'll see what that does, I like experimenting with different props. Will pay closer attention to the torque/motors this time!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 09, 2018, 03:26:58 PM
Another thing that will help your A6 is a flaring prop. The blades for an A6 are too stiff to do much bending so you pretty much have to make the spar do the flaring. You can get a little bit of flare in the blades by orienting the grain parallel to the spar and using the lightest and weakest wood you can find for the blades. The more blade area you have in front of the spar the more flare you can get. My blades are 100% ahead of the spar.

My prop spars are about .020" thick. One is bamboo and the other is bass. It may have just been luck but these first two props are the only ones I've ever needed in over 10 years of flying A6.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 09, 2018, 04:10:24 PM
Thank you, that's interesting, I have some bamboo skewers that I can sand into a nice spar, I also have some bass, I'll give it a try! Is your spar .020 round/square?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: leop on January 09, 2018, 08:51:02 PM
And try to find a sheet for the prop blades that is nearly pure a-grain.  The cross-grain stiffness of c-grain balsa is much more than for a-grain.  This helps the blades to flex and flare.  Also, less dense wood means less stiffness and more flare.  You can look on the net for pictures of the two grains.  Remember that every piece of balsa can show both grains on a surface.  It all depends on how the balsa is cut.

LeoP


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 09, 2018, 09:59:11 PM
Thank you, that's interesting, I have some bamboo skewers that I can sand into a nice spar, I also have some bass, I'll give it a try! Is your spar .020 round/square?

My plan says the spar is .020" x 060". Where it attaches to the blades it tapers to the same thickness as the blades (1/32"). I actually use the same props for all ceiling heights with only pitch changes if needed. My motor size also doesn't vary very much for different ceiling heights.

If you'll research all the other A6 threads on HPA there is a lot of information available.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 09, 2018, 10:48:26 PM
OK, I took a look at it, thanks, it looks like the shaft goes through the .020 part (?), I have some numbered drills and it shouldn't be a problem, but that might be tricky for beginners or some of our older modelers. I see there are some lengthy A6 threads that I haven't had a chance to read yet, right now I'm thrilled I can fly again and am simply focused on getting a few things built to fly for the next session.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 10, 2018, 01:27:03 AM
The prop is built in two identical pieces. The spar on each pice is about 3 1/8" long. The butt ends of the spars are overlapped so that the finished prop diameter is 6". The prop shaft is sandwiched between the two prop spars.

Here are pictures of my two props. The first picture is one blade from the prop with the bamboo spar. On this prop the spar goes all the way to the outside end of the blade.

The second picture is a view looking down the prop shaft of my prop with basswood spars. For this one I stopped the spar about halfway out on the blade to save weight.

The third picture is the two halves of the bass spar prop before they were joined.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 10, 2018, 03:51:26 PM
Thank you very much for those details, very helpful, I'll give it a try. I have to say though that I have somewhat mixed feelings because it seems to be pushing the rules a bit, which were clearly intended to keep everything simple - a small prop, flat blades, 1/32" balsa, etc., but if it's legal it's legal.

I was able to keep all the planes below 35' today, but the girders start at 31' and I had some bad luck and ended up losing both my new ministick and my first A6, ouch, that's four planes lost in 3 flying sessions! I kept my new A6 safely below 30' so I got in some nice flights and am getting the feel of it, was able to start paying attention to props/torque/etc. Back to building, need some more planes for next week!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on January 10, 2018, 05:40:46 PM
Boy that place is a real model eater Larry.  :) You fellows flying there may need to hire a "cherry picker' mobile hydraulic crane to retrieve models :)

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 10, 2018, 05:43:53 PM
Thank you very much for those details, very helpful, I'll give it a try. I have to say though that I have somewhat mixed feelings because it seems to be pushing the rules a bit, which were clearly intended to keep everything simple - a small prop, flat blades, 1/32" balsa, etc., but if it's legal it's legal.

I was able to keep all the planes below 35' today, but the girders start at 31' and I had some bad luck and ended up losing both my new ministick and my first A6, ouch, that's four planes lost in 3 flying sessions! I kept my new A6 safely below 30' so I got in some nice flights and am getting the feel of it, was able to start paying attention to props/torque/etc. Back to building, need some more planes for next week!

There's nothing about my model that in any way violates or stretches the rules. Which of the items you listed do you think are questionable?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 10, 2018, 07:22:32 PM
Given that the whole structure is 1/16" sq. balsa, rounded at the wingpost mounts, and ribs 1/16 by 1/32, I originally thought that this restriction held for the prop spar as well, though you're right, it simply says 'wood' (so I guess other types of wood could be used for the other structures as well). The prop is the biggest hurdle for many people - for ex., we have an older flyer who built a beautiful P18, I've been trying to convince him that he could easily build an A6, but he's worried about the prop, I showed him today that he could simply take 1/16" sq., round it, and glue on the flat blades, which is probably as simple as you can get for starters, so that was encouraging. Seems that limiting the prop size to 6", limiting blade thickness to 1/32" (would be easy to sand them), and limiting blades to be flat (easy to wrap them on a jar) were all intended to simplify the prop as much as possible, to level the field a little for beginners, doesn't seem that the props were intended to be flaring props (otherwise why not simply allow for thinner blade balsa or larger props?). Not criticizing anyone's plane, particularly yours Bill which is really really nice and a fantastic flyer, and I think the flaring bass/bamboo spar is a very clever and appealing idea that I want to try as well, so I'm simply noting that it doesn't appear to me to likely have been thought of and and in the original spirit of the event (to keep everything at the beginner's level). But maybe it was, with a different view from how I'm seeing it, I don't know. Not a problem, it's still a really fun event and that's all that counts!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 10, 2018, 07:32:40 PM
Boy that place is a real model eater Larry.  :) You fellows flying there may need to hire a "cherry picker' mobile hydraulic crane to retrieve models :)

John

Tell me about it, I've only gone 3 times and already have 4 planes up there! Frustrating part about today is that I did a good job of keeping the height below 35' all day but the rafters curve and are lower in parts and I had bad luck and landed inside them with both my mini and A6. However, I had several flights after that with my new A6 where I dialed in 30' a little closer (fear is a good motivator) and so I had several nice rafter-free flights to end the day. I'm hoping to break the 'at least one lost plane per session' pattern next week, let's see. In the interim, I already started another A6 and will probably build another mini over the weekend as well! good thing they build fast


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: mkirda on January 10, 2018, 10:22:14 PM
Given that the whole structure is 1/16" sq. balsa, rounded at the wingpost mounts, and ribs 1/16 by 1/32, I originally thought that this restriction held for the prop spar as well, though you're right, it simply says 'wood' (so I guess other types of wood could be used for the other structures as well). The prop is the biggest hurdle for many people - for ex., we have an older flyer who built a beautiful P18, I've been trying to convince him that he could easily build an A6, but he's worried about the prop, I showed him today that he could simply take 1/16" sq., round it, and glue on the flat blades, which is probably as simple as you can get for starters, so that was encouraging. Seems that limiting the prop size to 6", limiting blade thickness to 1/32" (would be easy to sand them), and limiting blades to be flat (easy to wrap them on a jar) were all intended to simplify the prop as much as possible, to level the field a little for beginners, doesn't seem that the props were intended to be flaring props (otherwise why not simply allow for thinner blade balsa or larger props?). Not criticizing anyone's plane, particularly yours Bill which is really really nice and a fantastic flyer, and I think the flaring bass/bamboo spar is a very clever and appealing idea that I want to try as well, so I'm simply noting that it doesn't appear to me to likely have been thought of and and in the original spirit of the event (to keep everything at the beginner's level). But maybe it was, with a different view from how I'm seeing it, I don't know. Not a problem, it's still a really fun event and that's all that counts!

Flaring props can actually be really difficult to build well. Most of the time they tend to flair unequally when done with balsa alone.

The A6 prop Bill came up with - using readily available materials - makes this trivial. At least for A6.
The basswood spars flair equally.

The only difficult part is finding very light a-grain wood.
However a quick email to Nick Aikman and you can have some show up at your door in about two weeks.
I'd recommend something like 3.6#.

A6 props built this way are very simple to replicate as well. They are also more rugged than balsa ones. Even better for beginners.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 11, 2018, 02:38:58 PM
Thanks for that tip Mike, I'm really looking forward to trying out the prop, always nice to learn something new! I have some precious 4lb balsa (from Nick) that I can use, but I didn't even know something less than that was available, holy cow, I guess I'll do another order!

Should note though that I still think it starts to take it out of the 'beginner' category, but that's arguable and let's just leave it at A6 is fun! I also think this is why P30 is enormous fun and is popular - even beginners can make a competitive plane (of course the pros will still usually win because of their high flying knowledge and ability!).

The parents of the girl I helped with her SO last time asked where they could get all the materials. The great part is that you can get almost everything locally - I told them you can get 1/32 and 1/16 (and 1/8) sheet and strips at local art shops (and I've found sheets with indoor density sections at those stores), so there's the whole structure, you can get piano wire at music and art stores, lube and all the glues you need at hardware and drug stores, and some garbage bags work as nice covering, so they were thrilled about that. They asked about getting the tan rubber that came with the kit locally, and I told them that I don't think you can do that, but they can easily order it online, but they were still a little bummed about that part.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: adanjo on January 11, 2018, 09:00:50 PM
My prop spars are about .020" thick. One is bamboo and the other is bass.

.020" is thinner than 1/16". Is it legal?
The original intention of A6 was a model that could be easily built by using thick wood only.

Aki


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: dslusarc on January 11, 2018, 09:22:05 PM
1/16 sq min does not apply to prop , motorstick or tailboom.

"24.4  All wing, stabilizer and rudder wood  including wing posts shall be 1/16” square
wood minimum, except ribs shall be 1/32” X 1/16” minimum. Posts may be rounded
in the area of the mounting tubes."



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: ram on January 11, 2018, 09:25:15 PM
24. A-6. For Event (222 )
24.1. General.
Except for the specific rules which apply directly to A-6, the rules for Free Flight Indoor Rubber, Hand Launched Stick model shall apply.
24.2.
The model shall be rubber powered and covered with paper or commercially available plastic; no microfilm allowed.
24.3.
The total maximum projected wing area shall be 30 square inches. There is no restriction on the stabilizer area.
24.4.
All wing, stabilizer and rudder wood including wing posts shall be 1/16” square wood minimum, except ribs shall be 1/32” X 1/16” minimum. Posts may be rounded in the area of the mounting tubes.
24.5.
The motor stick shall be from solid wood of 6” maximum length measured from the front thrust bearing face to the front of the rear hook.
24.6.
The propeller shall be 6” maximum diameter with flat blades from balsa no thinner than 1/32”.
24.7.
The minimum weight of the model shall be 1.2 grams without rubber motor.
24.8.
No special materials such as boron, carbon fiber or foam are to be used.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 13, 2018, 11:55:41 AM
OK, I decided to try a bass spar prop. I always make all my prop spars in one piece, just my preference, so I did it that way. Bass is .032 in the center and it wasn't that difficult to pierce it with .012 wire. It's easy to go in dead center, the trick is coming out on the other side - I did four of them and one was no good, but the other three came out dead center so it's not too hard. After I got some raw spars with nice centered holes, I sanded them to about .020 at the tips, also sanded the 1/16 to about .050 and a slight taper. Then I inserted the wire and just hit it with a drop of CA, picture below. Actually came out lighter than my balsa props (but that might put me a little under 1.2 total) and I can feel that it can twist much easier than the balsa spar. I made two, one a little thinner than the other. Flew nice in a living room test, let's see what happens on Wednesday (flying session).


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: leop on January 13, 2018, 05:39:35 PM
Take a careful look that the pictures of Bill's props.  The grain runs parallel to the prop spar.  This allows for minimum stiffness in the blade and maximum blade flex.  This way there is more flare and more flare is usually better for lower sites.

The pictures for Flyguy's most recent prop show the grain of the blades at an angle to the prop spar.  This makes for stiffer blades.  The angle can be used to tune the flare but for lower sites, more flare is often better.  Of course, one can have so much flare that the prop does not work well even after the torque has decreased but, flying indoor is a "change what is needed" sport.

LeoP


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 13, 2018, 06:18:12 PM
I'm an old EzB flyer from the sixties and that's how I usually did the grain, force of habit. I also thought that all the flexing would be due to the spar, I didn't think that (relatively thick) 1/32" balsa would flex at all (and I ran out of 4lb, 4.5lb is the next lowest I have), but I'll give it a shot if you say it does, I have a third prop under way and I'll put the grain parallel this time, we'll see how that compares to the other two props on Wednesday.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 13, 2018, 09:58:16 PM
OK, here's one with the grain parallel to the bass spar (this one is closer to .020 thick, and is .050 at the center and tapers towards the tips). will be interesting to compare.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 08, 2018, 12:03:34 PM
More bass spar props. First photo is my most recent attempt for the A6, waiting to test this one and some variations. I also noticed that Stan Chilton used a .023 x .025 (!) bass spar in his record setting mini, so I thought I'd give that a shot. I sanded a 1/32" x 1/8" strip of bass to .025, then stripped off pieces as close to .023 as I could get, they mostly came out a little bigger and I just lightly sanded them down. I was able to use a #80 drill to drill a hole, then used .012 wire (the .01 tends to slip off the pigtail too easily, the .012 fits nice). Photos show completed spar, last photo shows new bass spar prop on one of my minis. Looking forward to checking it out!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on February 08, 2018, 01:47:33 PM
Those props look very nice. I especially like that there is no prop area behind the spars. In most all of my current flaring props I have found that removing any area behind the spar has been beneficial. In my A6 props the spar is almost completely hidden on the rear edge of the prop blade.

The idea behind the lollipop prop was that since there was no twist allowed in the blades, a conventional 6" prop would have part of the blade flying efficiently while the rest of the blade would be fighting it. It seemed like concentrating the blade area in a small part of the prop disc would minimize that effect. Whether this idea has aerodynamic merit is debatable but the props do work well. Many people are using copies of my props or their own modifications of the same general idea.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 08, 2018, 02:49:52 PM
Thanks, I think the no area behind the spar stuff has been done for quite some time (like in easy b), but I like to check things empirically, so I started with prop blades that had area behind the spar, flew some flights with that, then took a razor blade and sliced off the area behind the spar, then put up a few more flights, so that gives you a pretty good comparison - I thought the sliced props were better, so there you go. Didn't try it yet with the minis, I'm also curious as to how the mini prop works with the tiny bass spar, hopefully I'll find out next week. I'm also experimenting with the shape of the blade, left on a little extra so I can try trim it at the field like before to see what happens.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 10, 2018, 07:31:36 PM
The idea behind the lollipop prop was that since there was no twist allowed in the blades, a conventional 6" prop would have part of the blade flying efficiently while the rest of the blade would be fighting it. It seemed like concentrating the blade area in a small part of the prop disc would minimize that effect.

I'm also wondering about these kinds of things. On a related note, I'm curious as to whether the widest part of the blade should be towards the tip, the middle, or the center. I've seen all three variations on various plans, my current blades are widest in the center of the blade. Of course I can make props to test this, I've made some progress testing various props but it still takes time! Any thoughts appreciated.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on February 11, 2018, 03:55:29 AM
Conventional propeller theory states that the thrust is at a peak at the 75% radius point. The variation of thrust along the radius of the blade is a 3d problem in some ways similar to the span loading of a wing. Just as the plan form does not dictate the lift loading(it does however dictate how efficiently the wing handles this lift distribution) - it is basically elliptical regardless , as it needs to drop to zero at some point close to the tip.

Thus to me it would seem that the area distribution and pitch distribution will not alter the thrust radius loading but can make a noticeable difference to efficiency. I would then believe that the area should be most efficiently distributed around the 75% or very close to it.

For these models where helical pitch or any twist is not allowed - it might make more sense to have an exaggerated Larrabee plan form ( but as a "lollipop" all area in front of the spar) with a narrow root swelling out to a max at 75% and then reducing quickly for the tip?

Actually rereading OLbill's comment - he seems to be saying something similar but my suggestion is to make this even more extreme.

It would need a long prop spar to maintain the strength of the prop and the widest part of the blade would stick out a long way, and may be too fragile?

Anyway food for thought and good luck.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 11, 2018, 12:42:19 PM
Thanks for the feedback John, extremely interesting. Right now the max width on my mini blade is at about 50%, for the A6 it's at about 75%, I just eyeballed the prop shapes, modifying some of my earlier props (using drawing software), so that they looked 'right'. Looks like I'll have a chance to test the ones shown in reply#123 on wednesday, can't wait!

I also found this old Aeromodeller article at Volare about Larrabee props, http://www.volareproducts.com/PFFT/LarrabeePropDesign.pdf  From his figure, it looks like, for the P/D ratios used in indoor, the max width will be in about the 50-75% range, which is encouraging. I might try another mini prop where the width is shifted a little from 50% where  it is now to about 75%; also I can see what the A6 prop does since that's already around 75%. On the other hand, I noticed that Stan Chilton's mini prop has the max width lower, like at maybe 30%, that's what got me wondering, since he clearly gets fantastic performance.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on February 11, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Perhaps Stan is using a lower P/D? Propellers are an amazing bit of complexity all wrapped up in the simplest looking physical devices.

it's interesting to speculate with a semi theory approach but it's the fellows like Olbill and Chilton and the others who achieve the times that are the true masters

I liked the comment in Reg Boorman's article in that props of the 30' - 40's were closer to a more efficient design than the shovel shaped props of the 40's and later.

I have an early (1920) edition of an early English text book on prop design and it describes the thought behind the design of some of the early WW1 props - eg the BE2 and the SE5A. The detail is fascinating.


Good luck with your mini's and A6.

John



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: faif2d on February 11, 2018, 06:38:26 PM
I was very interested in a prop design from way back.  The design was used on one of the NC-4 flying boats and when they changed to a more standard design the performance went down but they stayed with the normal design.  The big difference was a huge hub area and a fairly quick taper to a smal chord tip.  I even chased down the designers son out east somewhere and got some info from him.  I wanted to use the design on F2D planes but never got past carving one in balsa.  It would have been very hard to mount on to the motor and I just quit at that time. I still think the design had some merit.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 17, 2018, 11:29:57 PM
Well I almost posted that I had 2 flying sessions without losing any planes, feeling confident, just skimming the lights, but this past week I lost both a mini and an A6! Had the altitude under control for two weeks of sessions, lots of flights, and I also have Olbill's torque meter thanks to Mike Kirda, really nice, but I tested a new prop at the end of the day, even wound to a lower torque to be safe, but it still climbed a few feet too high (over 30 ft.) and the girders ate it, it's an unforgiving site - that's 6 planes lost in two months of flying! Another modeler also brought his first A6 and lost it as well, we couldn't even see anything sticking out.

Nice thing about A6 is that you can easily build one over the weekend. Already built the original design three times, and it flies nice as the video shows, but I wanted to try something else so this one is a higher-aspect ratio version - of course I knew when I built the first one that high AR was popular but I like to work my way from the ground up! 16" projected span, 1 7/8" average chord, bass spar prop, came out to 1.18 grams. Looking forward to flying it next week and seeing how it compares to the other one. I think it at least looks nicer!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on February 18, 2018, 09:01:23 AM
Great looking plane Flyguy! I notice that the tail boom seems to be in line with the motor stick. Is there an advantage over the drooping tail boom? Any chance you have a design sketch (fancy drawing not necessary), or some dimension you could post?

Thanks for all the inspiration!

Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on February 18, 2018, 09:05:25 AM
I think you will need to plant balsa trees if you keep losing models at that rate Larry. :)

I'm a fan of high AR's when there is no span limitation and I agree it does look interesting. how did the different props work - I guess the model eating rafters didn't give you much of a chance to compare them.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on February 18, 2018, 11:48:59 AM
The A6's look very nice!

I decided on a "medium" AR b/c of the large spars required by the rules. There were people trying 20" span A6's a few years back. I had a hard time understanding any advantage to such a narrow wing with 1/16" sq. spars on each end of the airfoil.

I'd actually like to try a low AR wing with tip plates. Whether I'll ever get around to it is a big question.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 18, 2018, 12:39:58 PM
Great looking plane Flyguy! I notice that the tail boom seems to be in line with the motor stick. Is there an advantage over the drooping tail boom? Any chance you have a design sketch (fancy drawing not necessary), or some dimension you could post?

Thanks for all the inspiration!

Al
Thank you. I haven't tried the droopy tail boom, so I can't comment on it, I think the idea is to get the stab out of the wing's 'wake'. The wing has an average chord of 1 7/8" and a projected span of 16" (giving 30 sq in of area). I have full size plans I still have to finish up. Hope it get's you flying, I've noticed that a few other club members have shown up with A6's now that they've seen mine flying! It's a fun category.

I think you will need to plant balsa trees if you keep losing models at that rate Larry. :)

I'm a fan of high AR's when there is no span limitation and I agree it does look interesting. how did the different props work - I guess the model eating rafters didn't give you much of a chance to compare them.

John
You guessed it John - didn't get a lot of prop testing in! The bass spar props clearly give an advantage but can be tricky. I had one that was wobbling a little, but the wobble wore out as the flight went on so it seemed the spars weren't flexing equally. Checked at home - blades were at exactly the same angle but pushing on the blades with a thin balsa strip I could see that one side was more flexible. Sanded the spar on that side a little, we'll see what that does next time. I tested a second bass spar prop, flexed nice and flew as smooth as glass, really nice! Of course that's the one I lost in the rafters. Have a few new ones for this week.

The A6's look very nice!

I decided on a "medium" AR b/c of the large spars required by the rules. There were people trying 20" span A6's a few years back. I had a hard time understanding any advantage to such a narrow wing with 1/16" sq. spars on each end of the airfoil.

I'd actually like to try a low AR wing with tip plates. Whether I'll ever get around to it is a big question.
Thanks for that information Bill, that's extremely useful! So you didn't notice any apparent flying advantages for the 20" span? I was wondering about that, a 1 1/2" chord or less just seems too small, in my eye. My current one is 18" flat, 16" projected, 1 7/8" av chord, that seemed as high as I could go and still have it 'look right'. The original was 14" flat, 12" projected, 2.5" av chord, that might be closer to what you call low AR? I don't use tip plates, but the tips have very high dihedral. It will be very interesting to compare the two AR versions flying wise, the only real difference is the wing/stab aspect ratios. Speaking of low ARs, I have flying video for my micro with a AR of 2, should probably post it.




Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on February 18, 2018, 05:08:47 PM
I never tried a skinnier wing than what my current model uses. My first try at A6 was a low AR model that didn't perform very well but there are lots of possible reasons for that: bad prop, not enough rubber, knots piling up, etc.

If I ever try a low AR wing it would probably have an AR of around 3 and would be a flat wing with tip plates like my F1M and LPP. Those models work well b/c both are span limited. An A6 is not span limited so it may not be worthwhile.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 18, 2018, 10:02:19 PM
Agreed, the span isn't limited in A6 so you want the optimal AR, the problem is figuring out what that is. If the span is limited like with pennyplane, and like with my micro, then it might pay to use the widest chord possible, we've seen that in pennyplane, and that's why I built the wide-chord mini. I'm glad I got it flying with an AR of 2, and it looks good so far. We'll hopefully get some info this week on how the higher AR wing does, plus the margin of stability calculations gave me some other ideas.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on February 19, 2018, 01:05:59 AM
I would imagine the optimum span is related to the fixed? prop diameter. Thus too low a span may give problems with roll control under high torque?

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 19, 2018, 11:50:47 AM
That's an interesting point John, that one has to consider the prop size as well.

So we know that the lift/drag ratio goes up with aspect ratio, but probably at some point various drawbacks kick in. Gliders and human-powered vehicles (probably the closest thing to rubber power, without the burst, just a cruise phase) use incredibly high ARs, so is it worth it to go any higher for A6? That's why this comment by Olbill intrigues me:

There were people trying 20" span A6's a few years back. I had a hard time understanding any advantage to such a narrow wing with 1/16" sq. spars on each end of the airfoil.

Does anyone have any info on what happened with these 20" A6's? How did they fly? Any apparent gains? Structural problems? It's got me wondering.

Can't wait to fly the higher AR A6 on weds., and I still have my medium AR A6, it's too bad I have to go to work after lunch, I'd love to spend the day flying!



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 21, 2018, 01:34:41 PM
OK, well it's my first 'higher AR design' and today was my very first time flying it, did 6:48:50, which seems good for the first time out, really wish I could have gotten some more flights in but I have to go to work. Bottom line - I think the higher AR flies better, looks like I can crack 7 min. with it. Really curious about those even higher AR designs Bill mentioned, hoping maybe someone is out there who can answer my question about the 20 inchers in my last post, otherwise I guess I'll have to build one to find out, but it would be nice to know if it's worth it! Looking forward to some more flying time with the new A6 next week.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on February 21, 2018, 01:56:23 PM
I don't know if anyone actually built an A6 with 20" span. One more reason not to do it is that the long wing spars would make the 1.2g minimum weight harder to achieve. My personal weight issue is my large stab but the way the model flies makes it worthwhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAg3wC-CyQM

https://www.facebook.com/bill.gowen/videos/10214005488038512/


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on February 21, 2018, 03:55:56 PM
That is an amazing climb! What size motor did you use? (I.e., cross section, length, strand count).

Thanks for videos, and any further details!

Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 21, 2018, 04:55:12 PM
I don't know if anyone actually built an A6 with 20" span. One more reason not to do it is that the long wing spars would make the 1.2g minimum weight harder to achieve. My personal weight issue is my large stab but the way the model flies makes it worthwhile.

My two last A6's both came in under 1.2 grams and I wasn't trying to build light (sturdy instead), so I'm pretty sure that I can make a higher AR wing and still keep it around 1.2 g, in fact, my high AR version weighs less than my medium AR version, and they are both underweight. However, right now I'll stick with the current wing, 8.5 AR, since it looks like it can do over 7 min and I've barely flown it, first time out and it's already close, and it stayed under 35-40 feet the whole flight, that's all the altitude that's available, plus it just looks 'right'.

However if anyone out there knows anything about higher AR A6's (category has been around forever, seems like someone must have tried it) let me know, otherwise sooner or later I think I can build a light A6 with like a 13 AR, if I do I'll report back, nothing like actual flying to figure out these things, plus this is what makes it fun - actual data. new balsa from greenman should also be here any day now...


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on February 21, 2018, 07:05:37 PM
That is an amazing climb! What size motor did you use? (I.e., cross section, length, strand count).

Thanks for videos, and any further details!

Al

For the Tustin flight the motor was a  20.5" x 1.15g loop of 5/99. It was wound to 3920 turns, launched at .4 in-oz and landed with 230 turns remaining - very low turns remaining for my way of flying. Later that day I got 10:20 with a thinner motor.

For the USIC 2012 flight the Cat 4 record was bumped up to 11:02. Motor was a 21.25" x .95g loop of 3/02 wound to 4600 turns and .33 in-oz.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 24, 2018, 07:27:31 PM
Never say it can't be done! Looks like there's no answer to my question in posts #139 and 143 about a 20" A6, so I decided to check it out myself. Examined a few possibilities, but I thought the 20" projected span, 1.5" chord looked doable. The flat wing is 22" long, first photo. I used 3.8 lb. balsa instead of 4 lb, added two more ribs. The high AR wing actually came out slightly lighter than my other ones, around 262 mg! Total weight of the plane with prop shown in the picture is 1.2 grams (I have some lighter props in which case it's a little under). I think the next flying session is going to be very interesting, can't wait to see this thing in the air.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on February 24, 2018, 09:25:19 PM
Beautiful work Flyguy! I will be anxiously waiting to see how it goes! Please make sure the first flight stays well below the girders as you won’t be the only one to be disappointed if it doesn’t!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Hepcat on February 24, 2018, 10:17:57 PM
Flyguy,
I don't have any 20", high AR models but I think you would find the following interesting. Google 'NORWIND' Indoor flyers and you should be able to open the 'Norwind' web site put up by Tom Tomlinson.  On the top line the is a heading 'plans' and scrolling down you will find a plan for an 'Easy A6 foam duration Model' designed by John Taylor.  To my eyes it is a beautifully proportioned aeroplane with 15" span an an AR of  8. The plan says it flies on a 10" loop of 0.04 rubber. Obviously with the foam surfaces it won't be down to 1.2g but people tell me they will do three or four minutes.  John Taylor is an interesting chap. An aeromodeller as a boy so naturally applied for an apprenticeship at nearby AVRO. He was bright so they sent him to Imperial College ,London to get his 'bits of paper'. He was put in charge of the wind tunnel, then was involved in many things, including the Vulcan' and finished up as Technical Director. When he retired he took up aeromodelling again and that is when I met him. One of his aerodynamicists was Reg Boor who made Larrabee's work accesible to a lot of modellers. It is interesting that Reg helped Bernard Hunt with his spreadsheet and John was co author of Bernard's paper on testing balsa wood.
John
 


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 25, 2018, 10:29:10 PM
Thanks for the comments, waiting to see what happens with the 20" AR6. On another note, almost 4 years ago back in post #27 in this thread, I mentioned that I was experimenting with a wide chord micro - the original had 5" wingspan and 2" chord, 2.5 AR, but given that the wing was limited to 5", I wanted to see what happened with a very low AR of 2, that is a 5" span with 2.5" chord. Had some problems getting it to climb, even with the usual fuselage twist, and so it sat in storage for years. I recently put a larger rudder on it, and it looked good in the living room, so I gave it a try at the Armory, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_mMikCY8fk   Not bad! Might play with it some more, though right now I only have enough time to focus on either the mini or the A6.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on February 25, 2018, 11:38:30 PM
Love the wide wing Micro “footage”! Am building my first Micro from your plan posted above, earlier. I figure that if I can achieve basic building skills on this “little guy” that will make a future A6 build that much easier. I’m just getting my feet wet on this indoor stuff.

What changes would yo make on the Wide Wing Micro to tighten the turn and reduce the bank?
I’m guessing more left Rudder, more RH Stab Tilt (fuselage twist), and more Left Wing Washin?.......or are the last two redundant?

What are the motor dimensions on the Wide Wing Micro?

Thanks for any help!

Al



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on February 26, 2018, 12:05:43 AM
That was a fun test, so I thought I might as well upload the video (I'm not videoing much in Teaneck because I'm too focused on using the flying time!).

I almost feel a little bad about posting the micro plan, I should have noted that it's definitely not a model for beginners. I know from being in the club lately that people have problems trimming minis, they can be tricky, and the micro only complicates the problems, so I would strongly recommend not to start with that. You can get a bunch of A6 plans online, and the people who were flying p18-like models who have now built A6's are getting very good flights, so I think it's better to start with an A6 instead of a finicky micro.

The micro flight in the video was with a 12" loop of .015" thick rubber that I stripped.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 03, 2018, 08:41:59 PM
Beautiful work Flyguy! I will be anxiously waiting to see how it goes! Please make sure the first flight stays well below the girders as you won’t be the only one to be disappointed if it doesn’t!

Well it stayed below the girders on the first flight at least! Good news is that the 20" AR6 flies nice, went up about 20 something feet on the first test and did over 5 minutes, flies nice and a little slower. Unfortunately, it went up to about 40 feet on the second test and those vicious girders ate it! Really unforgiving of any mistakes. Slid down into the big I beam, you can only see a little bit of the wingtip sticking out. My friend also lost his first A6, so that's it for him this year (he's getting ready for outdoor). I've already built a new 20" A6, photo attached. Only differences are that I put the wing/stab leading edges at a 45 angle to see if that helps with the airfoil, and the stab has a higher AR, but slightly less area. We'll see what happens, would be nice not to have to build another for a while! This one came in a little light at 1.15 grams.

Also working on another mini, given that I've lost 4 (still have one left, didn't lose it last time!). Already built the original design 4 times, so I changed it this time.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 03, 2018, 11:20:24 PM
It sounds like the new, higher AR design is a winner!
Sorry to hear the second flight stayed up there. What was the difference from the first flight?.....more rubber turns?...or?

I haven’t given up on the Micro yet. Getting close to an attempt at Living-Room-Flying it. I’m not expecting major
success but would like to at least say that I tried.

I’m looking forward to building an A6 since the  size of the materials used to construct an A6 will seem large compared to the Micro.

I am also working with my own, home grown rubber slitter (using a razor blade segment) with some degree of success but I doubt that I can get much below .030” strip size.



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 04, 2018, 01:28:25 AM
Unfortunately, it went up to about 40 feet on the second test and those vicious girders ate it! Really unforgiving of any mistakes. Slid down into the big I beam, you can only see a little bit of the wingtip sticking out.

I wonder at what point you are going to spend some serious effort on learning altitude control?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 04, 2018, 11:29:01 AM
Easier said than done at this site. I've had dozens of flights where I was just skimming the rafters, paying close attention to the torque. However, if you end up as little as 1 or 2 feet too high for whatever reason then there's a good chance you will lose the plane, and it's very hard to control the height to within that limit, more than welcome to hear any advice on getting that fine control. My friend has been flying very conservatively, has been winding to low torques, yet he has also still lost planes (I think this time because the air was a little warmer), as has every single flyer at the site. Take a ride over and do some flying and I think you'll realize the challenges of this site. Also you have to remember that I'm not fine tuning the same plane over and over (keep losing them!) and that I'm experimenting with different props etc., so that raises the risk of going a few feet too high. The only way to be totally safe is to keep it at least 5 feet below the rafters, but then your times are lower, so eventually you take the risk.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 04, 2018, 02:50:57 PM
It sounds like the new, higher AR design is a winner!
Sorry to hear the second flight stayed up there. What was the difference from the first flight?.....more rubber turns?...or?

I haven’t given up on the Micro yet. Getting close to an attempt at Living-Room-Flying it. I’m not expecting major
success but would like to at least say that I tried.

I’m looking forward to building an A6 since the  size of the materials used to construct an A6 will seem large compared to the Micro.

I am also working with my own, home grown rubber slitter (using a razor blade segment) with some degree of success but I doubt that I can get much below .030” strip size.

I'm holding off on any conclusions about the 20 incher until I get some more flying time in with it, but it does look good. Yes I went to a little higher torque/more turns on the second flight, but .07 oz-in generally seems to get it up just about 30-35', so who knows, it went up just a few feet higher and that's the kiss of death in this site.

Not trying to discourage you on the micro, just a heads up that it might be tricky. It is really nice to have something small enough to fly in the living room, my minis are too big for that, so that part is fun. If you can only strip to .030, then you'll need to use a single strand motor for the micro, I showed how I did that earlier in this thread. In the meantime start saving for a stripper, it's worth it in the end. Good luck, it's nice to get at least a little success for some encouragement to continue.

Yup, the A6 really has some lumber compared to the micro. That's what encourages people to give it a shot, plus all the ones I've seen have flown really nice. And as you can probably tell from this thread, they build pretty fast!



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 06, 2018, 09:05:25 PM
Just finished my new design mini stick, but there's no flying tomorrow, given the current forecast of 8-12 inches of snow! Good time for building though.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 06, 2018, 11:02:53 PM

I'm holding off on any conclusions about the 20 incher until I get some more flying time in with it, but it does look good. Yes I went to a little higher torque/more turns on the second flight, but .07 oz-in generally seems to get it up just about 30-35', so who knows, it went up just a few feet higher and that's the kiss of death in this site.

Not trying to discourage you on the micro, just a heads up that it might be tricky. It is really nice to have something small enough to fly in the living room, my minis are too big for that, so that part is fun. If you can only strip to .030, then you'll need to use a single strand motor for the micro, I showed how I did that earlier in this thread. In the meantime start saving for a stripper, it's worth it in the end. Good luck, it's nice to get at least a little success for some encouragement to continue.

Yup, the A6 really has some lumber compared to the micro. That's what encourages people to give it a shot, plus all the ones I've seen have flown really nice. And as you can probably tell from this thread, they build pretty fast!




Flyguy

Getting close to flying my version of your Columbia Micro. Picture below. (I hope.....Don’t look too close, it’s pretty crude).

I will start with a single strand motor and would appreciate some advise on how to wind the motor without rolling the little plane up in a ball! Wind on the plane? If so what stooge configuration? Or is it better to wind on a fixture and then install wound motor on the plane? Any help would be appreciated!



Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 06, 2018, 11:38:14 PM
I'm impressed, particularly if this is your first Micro! nice round wingtips and nice elliptical stab, what's the weight? You never wind on the plane on indoor, usually you wind on a torque meter then transfer to the plane. If you don't have that, then just make a hook and clamp it to something solid and you can wind on that. Do some searches on HPA, here's an extensive thread on winding, torque meters, winding methods etc. that should answer all of your questions:  http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=3650.0
Good luck!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 07, 2018, 12:01:30 PM
I'm impressed, particularly if this is your first Micro! nice round wingtips and nice elliptical stab, what's the weight? You never wind on the plane on indoor, usually you wind on a torque meter then transfer to the plane. If you don't have that, then just make a hook and clamp it to something solid and you can wind on that. Do some searches on HPA, here's an extensive thread on winding, torque meters, winding methods etc. that should answer all of your questions:  http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=3650.0
Good luck!

Thanks Flyguy. The winder forum is quite interesting. Recently I was working on adding a digital readout to my 10:1 winder, making use of a magnetic pickup and an Arduino. I got the prototype working in but that project, like many others is “temporarily” on hold!

I have a couple of torque meters (twisting music wire, with a disc and pointer) that I made a few decades ago. They may be useful, or serve as a reference in making a new one to wind small cross section motors.

My immediate problem is figuring out how to get the wound motor from a winding fixture to the hooks on the Micro, having only two hands to work with (neither of which belong to a surgeon!). I tried moving the wound motor from the winder to a stick with two posts, and then to the hooks on the plane, but still seemed to need a third hand. I’m sure it will eventually come to me but hope that the little Micro will survive my learning process.

The plane was built from materials on hand and 4# Balsa is not yet part of my inventory. My initial goal is to learn how to build these delicate airframes before making any major investments in materials and tools. If anything I produce actually flies (i.e., at least two laps around the living room) that will be “icing on the cake”.

Having said that, my Micro weighs .652 grams without the motor! Plenty of room for improvement!

Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 07, 2018, 12:10:45 PM
Start here:
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=3650.0


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 07, 2018, 01:18:01 PM
Yes, that's the exact same link I gave in my reply above.

Al - usually I remove the front part first and attach that to the prop hook, holding the plane with one hand, then remove the rear part and attach it to the rear hook.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 07, 2018, 02:48:16 PM

Al - usually I remove the front part first and attach that to the prop hook, holding the plane with one hand, then remove the rear part and attach it to the rear hook.

Thanks Flyguy,

Just another example of how I tend to overlook the obvious!

Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: _shadow_ on March 08, 2018, 12:19:28 AM
Flyguy,
I don't have any 20", high AR models but I think you would find the following interesting. Google 'NORWIND' Indoor flyers and you should be able to open the 'Norwind' web site put up by Tom Tomlinson.  On the top line the is a heading 'plans' and scrolling down you will find a plan for an 'Easy A6 foam duration Model' designed by John Taylor.  To my eyes it is a beautifully proportioned aeroplane with 15" span an an AR of  8. The plan says it flies on a 10" loop of 0.04 rubber. Obviously with the foam surfaces it won't be down to 1.2g but people tell me they will do three or four minutes.  John Taylor is an interesting chap. An aeromodeller as a boy so naturally applied for an apprenticeship at nearby AVRO. He was bright so they sent him to Imperial College ,London to get his 'bits of paper'. He was put in charge of the wind tunnel, then was involved in many things, including the Vulcan' and finished up as Technical Director. When he retired he took up aeromodelling again and that is when I met him. One of his aerodynamicists was Reg Boor who made Larrabee's work accesible to a lot of modellers. It is interesting that Reg helped Bernard Hunt with his spreadsheet and John was co author of Bernard's paper on testing balsa wood.
John
 

Just completed this based on the above.

4.3g without motor.

Regards


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 08, 2018, 05:20:34 PM


Al - usually I remove the front part first and attach that to the prop hook, holding the plane with one hand, then remove the rear part and attach it to the rear hook.

Flyguy,

Is it common/appropriate to make fine trim adjustments at a flying site on a small plane like the Micro by bending/twisting tail booms, spars, etc.? Or is solvent-softening glue joints and repositioning control surfaces the preferred method?

I am getting the impression that the trim on my sudo-Micro is very susceptible to handling and that small tweaks make a noticeable difference in flight trim. Seems like the light weight structure can change shape quite easily with handling in the process of removing and replacing the motor after winding. Of course I’m still at the ham-handed beginner stage, hoping that I will develop some degree of finesse before too long.

Shadow,

Nice job on your new plane!


Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 09, 2018, 10:40:06 AM
Yes, a little bending or twisting is usually sufficient for some trimming. Sometimes I'll do some glue softening, usually that's for changing something like the tailboom angle or wing post angle, but that's it.

Nothing should change shape. I think what you're referring to is that the fuselage twists a little when you put the motor on. You want that! It should twist slightly so that the left front of the wing is raised a bit (wash in) to counter the left twist from the torque. If your plane is torquing in to the left, then sand the fuselage between the wing posts very lightly and slowly until you have enough twist to get rid of the left spiral, that's important.

I have a new A6, a new mini, and a new no-cal, looking forward to flying next week!



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 12, 2018, 07:59:32 AM

My two last A6's both came in under 1.2 grams and I wasn't trying to build light (sturdy instead), so I'm pretty sure that I can make a higher AR wing and still keep it around 1.2 g, in fact, my high AR version weighs less than my medium AR version, and they are both underweight. However, right now I'll stick with the current wing, 8.5 AR, since it looks like it can do over 7 min and I've barely flown ittt, first time out and it's already close, and it stayed under 35-40 feet the whole flight, that's all the altitude that's available, plus it just looks 'right'.

However if anyone out there knows anything about higher AR A6's (category has been around forever, seems like someone must have tried it) let me know, otherwise sooner or later I think I can build a light A6 with like a 13 AR, if I do I'll report back, nothing like actual flying to figure out these things, plus this is what makes it fun - actual data. new balsa from greenman should also be here any day now...

Came across this today and thought you might be interested, if you haven’t seen it already. Can’t say for sure what the AR is but it looks high. Maybe more info from the builder could be had.

Have gotten down to ~.024” with my razor blade rubber stripper and will try for .012” (“impossible dream”?). I made some trim mods on my Columbia Micro to tighten the turn. Hope to try it today.

Al

https://flyhaffa.com/model-aircraft-of-the-month/feb-2017-model-aircraft-of-the-month-jeff-renza6-indoor-model-aircraft/


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 14, 2018, 10:17:38 PM
Thanks Al, always interesting to read these things!

I finally got some test flights in today with my new high AR A6 and it's looking really good, seems slightly slower and nice slow climb and good cruise, which is what you want in this site. Here's a test flight and some other flying in the armory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJhj7koQrvA

I focused more today on my mini, I finally have a bass spar prop (like .025 bass) that flexes evenly and is fairly smooth, ministick did well over 8 minutes, so I'm happy  :)


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 14, 2018, 11:13:59 PM
The first A6 in this video is the best flying A6 I've ever seen. And as you might guess I've seen all of them.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 14, 2018, 11:49:45 PM
Thanks Bill, that really means a lot coming from you, no doubt you've seen a lot of A6's flying at this point! So I really appreciate that feedback - I thought it flew noticeably slower and was happy with the first time out performance, so good to have that confirmed; I'm building a back up for next week!

Also, the flaring prop (variation of your design) can be tricky to get smooth, but once you get it it's really nice (was easier to tune for the A6, ministick version is harder), that really helps to get the slow climb and long cruise. Really looking to some flying next week, unfortunately I have to leave a little earlier.

Another interesting thing is that the margin of stability stuff indicated benefits of reducing the stab area for a higher aspect ratio stab, which is hard to do for rubber flyers (we like large stabs), but this version flew nicer with the higher AR (but less area) stab.



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on March 15, 2018, 12:12:54 AM
I was also impressed by your A6's flight Larry. Very smooth and stable as well. There are nos signs of Reynold's number problems and it seems like you have hit a winning formula. I've got to admit that I'm no indoor expert but you have shown that with a class formula based on a wing area and weight - Span is the way to go. even though you have the same wing loading - minimum weight and wing area per the rules - the induced drag is clearly lower and this is what I feel has increased your cruise time.

Yes a higher AR stab is more effective - more efficient, but can have hassles where you have a wide speed range, but that's certainly not the case here. It's hard to know exactly but stability calcs for low AR tails - around 3.5-5, indicate efficiencies as low as 40%. This means that 60% of the stab is generating mainly drag. It may help in a dynamic sense with damping but is also extra weight.

No doubt the prop is also contributing to the good performance particularly with the flaring prop working well.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on March 15, 2018, 08:30:27 PM
Thanks John, it is interesting that the wider (higher drag) stab from my older A6 resulted in a very gentle stall, but that problem didn't arise with the new narrower stab (same length, higher AR, slightly lighter), it flies as smooth as glass. That and the wing seem to be examples of less drag in action. This wing/stab combo gave very nice flying characteristics as can be seen in the video, so I'll leave it alone and build another for back up!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 15, 2018, 10:46:10 PM
A General “Newbie” Question: When cross section dimensions are specified with a single dimension, e.g., Micro Rubber cross section is .015”, or prop spar cross section is .025”, does this imply that the second dimension is the same?......or does this mean that the section is round?

In the case of rubber crossection dimensions I would expect the section to be rectangular (including a square being considered a rectangle) and that two dimensions would be specified. Most rubber motors I have seen are not square.

Is a .015” Rubber motor actually .015” x .015”?

Thanks for any clarification on this.

Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 16, 2018, 12:20:51 AM
Rubber width is usually the specified width x the thickness of the uncut strand which is generally around .040". So in your example an .015" motor would be something like .015" x .040".

This is a particularly bad way to specify rubber b/c the thickness of the uncut strand can vary from the high .030's to almost .050". The preferred way to specify a motor is by length and weight. Then you can specify the strand density in terms of weight divided by a unit length like grams/inch, grams/centimeter, pounds/mile (not really) or whatever you prefer. I use grams per inch which mixes English and Metric units but I like it anyway. Most of the rest of the world uses grams/centimeter which I will eventually switch to if I live long enough.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: cessnadriver on March 16, 2018, 10:53:37 AM
Rubber width is usually the specified width x the thickness of the uncut strand which is generally around .040". So in your example an .015" motor would be something like .015" x .040".

This is a particularly bad way to specify rubber b/c the thickness of the uncut strand can vary from the high .030's to almost .050". The preferred way to specify a motor is by length and weight. Then you can specify the strand density in terms of weight divided by a unit length like grams/inch, grams/centimeter, pounds/mile (not really) or whatever you prefer. I use grams per inch which mixes English and Metric units but I like it anyway. Most of the rest of the world uses grams/centimeter which I will eventually switch to if I live long enough.

Thanks Olbill,

You confirmed what I suspected. Guess I will just determine the density of the rubber I have and work with motor weight as 25% of total weight, and the limits of my home made rubber stripper, for the time being.

I am still in doubt about the .025 in prop spar dimension. Seems like a pretty spindly spar. I have seen prop spars specified as .025 x .060 (not sure which dimension is the frontal dimension). With a single dimension is there an implied Balsa stock thickness or is the spar actually a .025 in round?

Guess I will just have to use my own judgement, as uninformed as that is!

Al


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on March 16, 2018, 10:36:43 PM
My spars are made from .025" thick stock x whatever my plan says. One of my props has bass spars and the other has bamboo spars. If you'll look up the earlier A6 threads on this site you can find a lot of info about the prop and how to use long motors.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on April 22, 2018, 11:45:39 AM
Well the aspect ratio experiment continues :) I'm very happy with the 20" A6, flies really nice, as the video shows. Given that it's sturdier and lighter than I thought it would be, I decided to go 'all the way' and try a 24" A6 (24" projected, 26" flat), that seemed like the most one could get away with, that gives an AR of a whopping 19.2. Came out nice, pictures below, last photo shows that it really dwarfs the 20" version! Most surprising part is that it is underweight at 1.096 grams, so weight apparently isn't a limitation, in fact I'm going to use slightly higher density balsa for the wing when I build the next one since it needs a little extra weight anyway.

Got in some test flights last week and so far it looks good, really nice slow climb and good cruise, did 6:42, and that's with it deadsticking at 15' (and I usually get at least another minute at 15') so it needs a longer motor than the last one, probably a good sign, making some up for next week. I was worried about how much bending of the long wing would occur, but it seems fine, really starting to look like the Daedalus when flying! Now that I've built it though I think 24" is the limit, so I don't think there will be a 30 incher! Need to get some more flying time in with it, and I'm still flying the 20" version as well, so it's an A6 party the next few flying sessions, good way to end the season as I get geared up for outdoor.



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on April 23, 2018, 05:35:04 AM
Interesting experiment Larry. It does seem like the higher AR is working for you and enabling the wing to work at a higher CL without excessive drag.

It will be interesting to see how it goes against the 20" WS version.

Have fun.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on April 23, 2018, 02:41:05 PM
Thanks John, it has been fun seeing aerodynamic theory in action! It's also nice that I've reached what I think is the limit because I can now settle down on that design and focus on flying it, though I'll still put up some 20" flights for comparison and I'm still experimenting with very small changes in the prop and motor. Simply limiting the wing area in A6 was a great decision because it allows some flexibility, mainly with respect to the aspect ratio, thus inviting experiments such as my 12", 16", 20", and 24" A6's!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on April 23, 2018, 09:36:58 PM
Quote
Simply limiting the wing area in A6 was a great decision because it allows some flexibility, mainly with respect to the aspect ratio,

Yes I agree - it seems to me a much better rules limitation than those based on wing span.

Have fun.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Crossup on April 23, 2018, 10:33:09 PM
Flyguy,
Any chance you would reveal some basic dimensions on your new mini? I notice the wing is mounted way forward, and that raises some interesting questions. Anyway, my Columbia got somewhat mangled by the dog and rather than build it as designed I'd like to do one like yours.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on April 23, 2018, 11:46:20 PM
Quote
Simply limiting the wing area in A6 was a great decision because it allows some flexibility, mainly with respect to the aspect ratio,

Yes I agree - it seems to me a much better rules limitation than those based on wing span.

Have fun.

John
Yup, when the wing span is limited, the most you can do is make the chord as wide as possible, like in pennyplane and in my micro stick experiment, so there's not much else to do, apart from playing with the wingtip and stab shapes. Varying the aspect ratio is more interesting because you eventually hit a structural limit (wing bends too much) and a chord limit (1/16" square LE and TE with a say .5" chord is probably problematical! though you never know), so there's got to be an optimal point, which makes it interesting.

Flyguy,
Any chance you would reveal some basic dimensions on your new mini? I notice the wing is mounted way forward, and that raises some interesting questions. Anyway, my Columbia got somewhat mangled by the dog and rather than build it as designed I'd like to do one like yours.

I always draw up plans since that's what I actually build on, send a personal email and I can send pdf's if you want. The latest mini is the one shown in the first picture below, but I'd recommend the mini before that one, shown in the second picture. I've barely flown the new mini so I can't say much about it, I've been too focused on these behemoth A6's! And the A6's are really easy to fly, the mini's are trickier. I'd recommend the first (elliptical) mini because it has done 8 1/2 minutes in a Category 2 site (where you can't go up more than 35') so that one is at least a proven not-too-shabby flyer. I need to update the plan however because I'm using a slightly narrower prop blade and the plan also shows a balsa spar prop, but I've changed to a bass spar prop a la Stan Chilton and it's better, the bass flexes more and you need that in these low ceiling sites. However, the mini bass spar prop is more difficult - if you watch the videos you'll see that I don't accept any tail wiggle, the planes are rock steady. This is trickier to get in my experience with the mini bass spar props (it's easier for A6 because the spar is wider) - my first one wobbled a little but now I've got it down to dead smooth (you can see that in the latest A6 video where some mini footage is included).

The forward wing location arises because I always locate my wings to get a 5% constant margin of stability as described by Bud Tenny in a 69 INAV (and again in 76), I have an excel spreadsheet that does the calculation. 1969 was at the peak of my indoor contest flying and I got great results and consistency when I started using cmos so it's not surprising that I use it again now that I'm back into it many years later. Yes, I know there are updates and some terminology changes so I'm probably living in the past, but all my latest indoor planes fly great and I've had zero issues with CG location so I'm sticking with it!



Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Crossup on April 24, 2018, 10:30:35 AM
PM sent, your email is hidden. I am aware of the CMOS calc as its on the plans for the Columbia mini, looks like a no brainer to spend a minute to know your plane will be well behaved.

I'm going to follow your lead on the high AR A6 as I've had my suspicions that while small, there are performance advantages to be had with the heavier class planes. With the limited power of rubber, efficiency has to be a priority for maximum performance and as far as I'm concerned nothing beats the efficiency of modern gliders which are perfect examples of high ARs.
 
I just received a Harlan balsa stripper and that opens up a new world of better constructed planes which I'm anxious to build. My current Wart needs a new wing after many broken (and glued) ribs from being retrieved several times per session from the low ceiling (~20') in the site available year round as well as the huge dome with 45' I get to use 7 times a season, last meet there is this Friday.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on May 02, 2018, 05:30:26 PM
Finally got a chance to try the 24" A6 for a second session. It was warm outside but cool and a little 'breezy' in the armory. A6-24 flies nice, I kept it safely below the rafters for several flights, but the last flight it hung on an 'invisible' thread hanging below the girders, it's always something. I was worried that the prop got tangled in the thread, but I got it back (with wing damage, but repairable), put up a couple of flights with the 20" version after that. I used a different prop and it apparently needs a longer motor, I posted the one full flight I filmed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC-fh9_Uqjc

That's probably it for indoor flying for me for awhile, I've got to start braiding up some 'huge' motors for some outdoor flying!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on May 02, 2018, 05:47:53 PM
THAT was one COOL video Flyguy  !!   ;D   Thanks for the flight and narration !

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Crabby on May 02, 2018, 05:51:45 PM
Is there still some action going on in Lakehurst? Its a cool place to fly. When I was there, there was a part of a carrier deck used in training deck guys in landings. Whatever. its so big it will suck the wind out of you. I lost an MO-1 in there someplace.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on May 02, 2018, 06:40:07 PM
Thanks Richard, glad you enjoyed the flight, I almost didn't bother to do any video today so I'm glad that I at least got one flight on video. I'm really happy with this plane, kind of majestic looking in flight with that long bending wing.

Crabby - I flew in Lakehurst back in the late 60's-early 70's, it's totally different from this low-ceiling stuff! I really like high-ceiling flying; Columbia, where I flew the most in the late 80's, is also over 100 feet (still exploring that, you'd think being faculty there would help!) Some of us in the club have been talking about trying to make it down (yes I know about joining the east coast indoor modelers club and getting clearance), but it takes a few hours to get to Lakehurst (bus is 2 hours) so it's a lot more travel time, but it will be an adventure to head down so... But I'm really gearing up for some outdoor right now, the part I love about rubber RC is that it's only a 5 minute walk to the field, less travel=more flying!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Crabby on May 02, 2018, 07:38:34 PM
Larry I relate more to you as a rubber rc guy anyway. Glad to get you back into familiar territory!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on May 02, 2018, 08:59:38 PM
Thanks for the video Larry - very nice flight. It was certainly courting disaster up high. It is very stable and I think you may have established a new direction for A6.
Looking forward to your outdoor RC FF.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on May 02, 2018, 09:21:59 PM
Larry I relate more to you as a rubber rc guy anyway. Glad to get you back into familiar territory!

Ah that's great! Thanks for the comment, I have a KK Ace build video that I completed last October, I've been holding it until I at least get some test flights in, so hopefully that will be soon, can't be windy forever, though this has been the worst year ever. I'm about to start the next build, so the motivation helps, I need to get my butt in gear and do some outdoor building! Also got a few people in the club interested in rubber RC, plus I gave a presentation to the Skyscrapers recently and there seemed to be some interest, the owner of the flying field was there and he gave us permission to fly rubber RC in the field (gas and electric are not allowed), I think he was impressed that the planes are very light, quiet, and harmless.

Thanks for the video Larry - very nice flight. It was certainly courting disaster up high. It is very stable and I think you may have established a new direction for A6.
Looking forward to your outdoor RC FF.

John

Thanks John, I think there's something to the high AR thing, I'm impressed with some of the flying characteristics of these latest planes. I actually thought that flight was pretty safe for this site, only one touch! courting disaster is going well above the rafters, been there and done that too many times at this point, so I'm careful with the torque. There are still lots of other hanging things and I hit some weird hanging thread when I thought I was safe, of course it was the best flight of the day, before I hit the thread that is!

It will be nice to get back to outdoor, no ceiling there! and I like blasting them up there, barely got to fly the Hurricane with the new motor last year, but it really rocketed up, looking forward to getting back to it, plus checking out the Ace.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 03, 2018, 12:08:05 PM
Well, didn't get in as much outdoor flying this year as I wanted to (too windy), but at least I got to fly the KK Ace!

Indoor season is coming up, flying this week! I've got two high AR A6's ready to go, but I'm thinking of starting a separate thread on that since it can include photos from some others doing similar things. I designed and built an F1L since that looks like fun, stab/rud are simple ellipses, so that's the only new adventure this year, I really want to work on refining the A6 prop/rubber combo. Surprise with the F1L was that I used 6 lb wood for all the outlines and ribs and it still came out underweight, measured total was 1.09 grams! wing - 240 mg, complete fuse/stab/rud 630 mg, prop 224 mg.  I'll probably beef up the next wing a little and get it up to over 300 mg, but let's see how this thing flies first!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 03, 2018, 07:37:10 PM
Interesting Larry. High AR stab looks good.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 03, 2018, 08:58:46 PM
Hi John - yes my thinking about stabs on indoor has changed a little lately (in light of the other experiments), I'm thinking of keeping the drag down. Should find out what happens this week, I'm curious about the prop because that's an experiment, my old EzB props are all high-ceiling props (you can see one in the box in the first photo) so are probably useless at this site. Here I did it the way I did years back, the spar is one solid piece sanded to tapers on both sides.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Skymon on December 04, 2018, 08:19:31 AM
Very nice looking plane. Super neat.
Despite it's reputation, I think F1L is a great starter class for the larger planes.
Apart from the prop I used local model shop wood and came in just under weight.
The 1.2g limit is superbly set.
Nothing too clunky, but very achievable.
I love the look of that stab!!
Is it one piece outline or joined?


Best regards, seasons greetings and happy flying

Si


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on December 04, 2018, 09:04:40 AM
I use the best indoor wood I can find and have trouble making weight.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 04, 2018, 02:19:42 PM
Very nice looking plane. Super neat.
Despite it's reputation, I think F1L is a great starter class for the larger planes.
Apart from the prop I used local model shop wood and came in just under weight.
The 1.2g limit is superbly set.
Nothing too clunky, but very achievable.
I love the look of that stab!!
Is it one piece outline or joined?

Best regards, seasons greetings and happy flying

Si

Thank you, same to you, hoping to get some good flying in over the holidays, I hope the snow holds off! I don't know what the reputation of F1L is? I had fun building it.

Yes, I agree, the 1.2 g limit is great, you can still make a nice sturdy plane and meet the limit, I used 6 lb wood throughout and it's under, so you can use hobby shop wood with some selection (although I'll confess I'm spoiled and have a nice supply if Nick Aikman (greenman) balsa, some more on the way)!

The stab is two ellipse halves joined in the middle, I've gotten good at making a very clean joint so that you can't see it, gives the illusion that it's one piece!




Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Skymon on December 05, 2018, 05:53:37 AM
There is a view that F1L is a tricky class to fly. I expect that is based on the high stresses involved with high ceiling flying and also the super light weight EZBs that this class came from.
I certainly don't think it's a tricky to build or fly class.
I expect there's a difference between flying and flying well though :)

How do you join? With a scarf joint or a butt?

I'll be interested to hear how your plane flies - what category halls are you going to be flying in?

Best regards
S


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 05, 2018, 06:48:05 PM
They are all scarf joints, I think they're stronger. It's a little over 30' to the lights, measured today by some club members at 34 feet I think, so it's on the low end of Category 2. I only got in 2 flights with the new F1L today, but the first was 9 min exactly and the second was 11:10, but I grabbed it when it was still up about 7 feet on that flight (had to catch the bus!), so I'm pretty happy with the first time out performance, rubber size was just a guess (needs refinement) and the prop seemed to work well, though of course I still want to try some things, that's the fun!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 07, 2018, 07:17:15 PM
Good times Larry. Do you ever have misbehaving models? :)

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 07, 2018, 07:45:29 PM
Thanks John. I never made an EzB prop with the whole blade in front of the spar (decades back), so I thought it might just flop around and do nothing, that would be some misbehaving! Got lucky there, little wobble during the burst which I think I can fix, but really nice slow climb, took over 4 minutes to get to 30' (my A6 takes 2-3 minutes for 30'). I'm making a new prop with a slightly wider blade, I also changed the tail boom (didn't seem stiff enough), plus I'm building a little heavier wing to try to get it up to weight. Now that I've flown it, I like F1L (EzB's weighed about a gram back in the 70s, so it's similar). Nice to have something that can do over 10 min. and stay below the killer girders!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Skymon on December 10, 2018, 11:25:22 AM
Those times are great, I've never managed double figures on my F1L yet, but it was only the second plane I ever built after a ministick.
I am still working on getting the rubber and prop dialled in. I like the way it flies but the RPM is too high for a decent time.
More work to do :)


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 10, 2018, 12:41:42 PM
Yes keeping the rpm down, I'm thinking of that as well. Given that the in-front-of-the-spar blade worked fairly well last week, I made another prop with a wider blade. My .01 sheets are generally about 1 1/16" wide, but this blade is 1 1/4", so I butt-joined about a 1/4" strip on the end with some thinned ambroid, then soaked and wrapped the sheets as usual, photo with new wider prop blades attached, if you look close you can see where I joined the strip in the upper blade. Also replaced the tail boom with a stiffer one, so that brings the total weight up from 1.09 to 1.14 g, getting close! Curious to see how the wider prop does this week.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 10, 2018, 05:58:47 PM
What covering material are you using Larry?

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 10, 2018, 07:08:35 PM
OS film, nice stuff, cuts really easy, and it's pretty light!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 11, 2018, 12:40:37 AM
Thanks Larry. I also flew a bit of EZB but in the mid 80's. Only the one model and it was a modified (much longer tail moment) Laurie Barr Flyrod, covered in condenser paper. I remember it weighed around 2 gms and it's best flight on 0.065 Tan was around 11mins. - with a lot of ceiling scraping. I still have the remains.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 11, 2018, 10:04:45 AM
Nice John, another EzB flyer from long ago! I flew it first in the late 60's-early 70's, then a 15 year absence, then again in the late 80s, then a 25 year absence. My old EzB was about 1 gram, so it's almost like F1L, but they were already getting down to about .7 at that time (kind of ruined it in my view). I've really enjoyed flying A6 and mini so far, but did feel a real wave of nostalgia flying the F1L last week, like coming home.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 12, 2018, 06:20:56 PM
The remains of mine are in a foam box with a Hanger Rat that is almost as old. I seem to remember that mine was regarded as a heavy version but I don't think that in Australia we were flying them all that much lighter. I enjoyed flying it and still have some of the gear including a Jim Jones torque meter(is he still alive?) and one of his balsa strippers. I flew with a group who were mainly RC  flyers as I was. It was a 30min drive to the school auditorium we had access to and usually led to a long night - flying from around 7 to 10.30 - 11.00. I flew it in a couple of our nationals and remember at one being defeated by spider webs :) as the prop was close to the LE of the wing(long tail moment) and it would pick up spider webs from near the roof, which would stop the prop! very annoying at the time as I had done 7 mins on a practice flight and couldn't manage 4 in the official flights - thanks to the spiders.

Great memories. Have fun with yours Larry.

John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on December 12, 2018, 06:39:07 PM
Good story, that's funny about the spider webs!

I'm very happy with today's F1L flying, the new wider flaring prop was really smooth, I was expecting a lot of wobble so was pleasantly surprised. I'm still experimenting with motors and only got in a few flights, but the last flight of the day was no touch, never went above 30' (safely below the lights), and was 11:30 (better than last week) and I had 1000 winds left! so should be able to get some longer times once I get a better idea about the motor, I have a whole week to think about that!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on December 12, 2018, 06:47:07 PM
That's good going Larry. My 11mins back then was to me a major effort. I seem to remember that I used around 1680 turns and a torque rending of 2 on Jim's torque meter. I didn't know about backin off as I was a heavy RC glider comp flyer and indoor flying was a relaxing :) pastime.
The story of the nationals took place in the evening after a long day flying RC thermal in the middle of our summer with temps in the high 30 deg C. Alos the humidity was very low and as it was covered with condenser paper the tail was warping like a pretzel! I had to make careful minor breaks in the spars and reglue with CA to get it anywhere near straight! By the time the spiders got into the act I was not amused :)
Cheers have a good Christmas
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 09, 2019, 03:23:08 PM
Very happy with today's F1L flying at Teaneck. I've been playing with props, as usual, using a 15" prop now. I've upped the blade width to 1 1/2" inches, had a few 11+ min flights with them. Today I wanted to compare two props - one formed on a 24 p block and set at 28 p and one formed and set at 28p - I could see right away the latter was better, though I still need more flying with them. I had three no-touch 32 foot (a little over a foot below the lights) flights: 12:05, 12:50, and 13:15, really happy to break 13 minutes! Prop rpm was 100 on the 13 min flight, 90 on the other two. now it's getting interesting...


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Skymon on January 10, 2019, 06:40:55 AM
I flew my F1L this week, with less positive results.
I made up a bigger prop and spent a lot of time upping the launch torque with each flight to find the level where the plane started to climb.
After finding that and stepping up a few turns I turned in a very nice, if short flight with a few feet of climb and a nice 91 RPM.
Then I added more turns and everything went to pieces.
After launch the plane flew straight on, one end of the gym to the other.
My motor stick is not up to it - it's curving and killing the left turn.
I bashed the plane about with my steering pole and eventually it started to turn after the torque had reduced.

So one step forward and one back.

I have a nice prop and some good rubber data but the stick won't take it.

Time for a new stick!


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 10, 2019, 12:03:35 PM
This is not unusual for F1L. When I was doing a lot of F1L flying I had to twist the MS against the torque and hold it for 15-20 seconds before launch. Otherwise I would get right wing washout and a death spiral. I also started using static right wing washin to help keep the right wing up at high torque. Looking back at my numbers in 2007 and 2009 most of my launch torques were in the low .2 in-oz range with the highest being .27 at Lakehurst.

If you're NOT getting death spirals then maybe your stick is okay and you just need to add more left thrust. You can get some relief by offsetting the rear hook a little to the left side so the stick will bow in that direction under high torque.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Flyguy on January 10, 2019, 01:08:56 PM
Yes you need a stiff enough stick! I've also noticed that you need slightly heavier rubber for these high flaring props.

Thanks for the numbers Olbill, that's useful info. For the 13 min flight, my launch torque was .198 which just took it to 32 feet (the limit), 15" 1.2 g motor, 1601 winds, 271 left on landing. torques for the other two flights were both .191. I'm going to try a slightly higher pitch prop next time.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 10, 2019, 03:07:13 PM
Here is a pic from the last time I made F1L MS's. The 6 at the bottom were all sanded to 290mg and then column tested. The second numbers are the results of the column tests. The 4 at the top were too heavy. I think the topmost one eventually became a LPP MS.


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: OZPAF on January 10, 2019, 11:11:29 PM
Fascinating stuff fellows. That is a monster prop you have Larry. Your Torque and turns data is very close to what I used on my best 0.065" Tan around 30yrs ago! in a modified Barr Flyrod. The prop would have been around 14-15" dia from memory. it's best flight in close to the same height but ceiling scrubbing was around 11 mins. It was a bit of a porker compared to yours at 2gms and covered with condenser paper.
This interesting stuff brings back many memories.
John


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Skymon on January 11, 2019, 03:33:06 AM
This is not unusual for F1L. When I was doing a lot of F1L flying I had to twist the MS against the torque and hold it for 15-20 seconds before launch. Otherwise I would get right wing washout and a death spiral. I also started using static right wing washin to help keep the right wing up at high torque. Looking back at my numbers in 2007 and 2009 most of my launch torques were in the low .2 in-oz range with the highest being .27 at Lakehurst.

If you're NOT getting death spirals then maybe your stick is okay and you just need to add more left thrust. You can get some relief by offsetting the rear hook a little to the left side so the stick will bow in that direction under high torque.

Bill
When you say right do you mean from the front or back?
I was launching at 5.1g/cm and the plane was just climbing.
I went up to 6 for a nice gentle climbing half height sortie.
When I went up to 7 it started to straighten out.
0.2in/oz is 14g/cm, that's territory I am no where near :)
I am half of that for what I think will give me a decent flight time in the CATI I use.
It's 7.85M high and he ceiling is reasonably clear but it's pretty small so tight turning is required.
I have dropped the trailing edge of the wing on the inside of the turn a tad just to keep that wing up, but it's almost imperceptible.
The offset wing area tends to iron out any spiralling descent pattern.

I made 15 motor stick blanks last night from some C grain stock I had.
I used three different 3.2mm sheets and cut 7mm x 230mm blanks.
weights from 280mg to 480mg.
I will try some A grain stock tonight.
I use a test for side bend that's similar to an arrow spine test.
I have two points 20cm apart that I rest the blank on then add a mass in the centre and test the deflection distance with a carrot gauge.
I got ranges from 3.2mm to 0.8mm, and different values for each side.
It will allow me to make sure the stiffest direction side to side is always on the outside of the turn.
SO any bend induced by the pull of the rubber should assist my turn rather than fight it.
I don't mind sharp turns in the early climbing stages.

Every time I spend three hours flying I end up creating at least 30 hours of building :)


Happy flying
Si


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: adanjo on January 11, 2019, 07:01:28 AM
Isn't it better to post a new thread?


Title: Re: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!
Post by: Olbill on January 11, 2019, 10:46:37 AM
This is not unusual for F1L. When I was doing a lot of F1L flying I had to twist the MS against the torque and hold it for 15-20 seconds before launch. Otherwise I would get right wing washout and a death spiral. I also started using static right wing washin to help keep the right wing up at high torque. Looking back at my numbers in 2007 and 2009 most of my launch torques were in the low .2 in-oz range with the highest being .27 at Lakehurst.

If you're NOT getting death spirals then maybe your stick is okay and you just need to add more left thrust. You can get some relief by offsetting the rear hook a little to the left side so the stick will bow in that direction under high torque.

Bill
When you say right do you mean from the front or back?
I was launching at 5.1g/cm and the plane was just climbing.
I went up to 6 for a nice gentle climbing half height sortie.
When I went up to 7 it started to straighten out.
0.2in/oz is 14g/cm, that's territory I am no where near :)
I am half of that for what I think will give me a decent flight time in the CATI I use.
It's 7.85M high and he ceiling is reasonably clear but it's pretty small so tight turning is required.
I have dropped the trailing edge of the wing on the inside of the turn a tad just to keep that wing up, but it's almost imperceptible.
The offset wing area tends to iron out any spiralling descent pattern.

I made 15 motor stick blanks last night from some C grain stock I had.
I used three different 3.2mm sheets and cut 7mm x 230mm blanks.
weights from 280mg to 480mg.
I will try some A grain stock tonight.
I use a test for side bend that's similar to an arrow spine test.
I have two points 20cm apart that I rest the blank on then add a mass in the centre and test the deflection distance with a carrot gauge.
I got ranges from 3.2mm to 0.8mm, and different values for each side.
It will allow me to make sure the stiffest direction side to side is always on the outside of the turn.
SO any bend induced by the pull of the rubber should assist my turn rather than fight it.
I don't mind sharp turns in the early climbing stages.

Every time I spend three hours flying I end up creating at least 30 hours of building :)


Happy flying
Si


My "death spirals" always occur with the outboard (right) wing washing out and the model going into a tight left hand turn with the outboard wing down.