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Outdoor Free Flight Forum => Free Flight Scale => Topic started by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 09:38:18 AM



Title: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 09:38:18 AM
I aim to build a 1/8th scale rubber powered Nieuport 11 for the outdoor nationals 2016. Another short nose subject, but with swept wings and dihedral. I will be fitting a spinning rotary and aim to get my documentation right, from the start. There is no shortage of photos for this subject, but if anyone has any photographs to share then I would very much appreciate it.

I am announcing this here and now so that I might be able to get help with a few things before I start.

For example, I am confused by the shape of the fuselage. The first picture shows that the taper is straight sided. The second shows more of a curved taper. Any thoughts?

Rich


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 04, 2015, 10:31:01 AM
For example, I am confused by the shape of the fuselage. The first picture shows that the taper is straight sided. The second shows more of a curved taper. Any thoughts?

Rich
Rich, the first picture is perfect; use that. As someone pointed out, the fuselage was not 'crack and cement' but must have curved sharply aft of the cockpit (I think this is visible), the rest being a straight taper. The uncovered structural shots you have confirm there was no sharp bend. The drawings show a curve and they need a simple modification to put right (a common fault with Windsock drawings)
I don't know what the second photo is. The cowl looks wrong - could be a replica!
If you use the first photo, the judges will want straight lines.

Just for info, I have built two Nieuports - diesel and rubber, and Mike Kelsey flew a Bebe last year. All very stable without dihedral. Dihedral on a Nieuport looks as bad as...an Albatros, D7, DR1...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 10:35:24 AM
Thanks Bill, just the kind of clarity I need!

Quote
Just for info, I have built two Nieuports - diesel and rubber, and Mike Kelsey flew a Bebe last year. All very stable without dihedral. Dihedral on a Nieuport looks as bad as...an Albatros, D7, DR1...

Absolutely. I wouldn't dream of adding any. When I said it has dihedral I was referring to the lower wing.

Rich


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 10:39:31 AM
I am developing a healthy suspicion of colour photographs of old aeroplanes. I admit to being guilty here of trying to spark a debate regarding the straightness of the taper because I thought it might be fun...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Work In Progress on May 04, 2015, 10:59:00 AM
As Bill suggested, that colour pic is not of an old aeroplane, but of a replica which is not especially accurate.

The world's only surviving Nieuport 11 is hanging in a similar posture at the Le Bourget museum. You can get to some excellent pictures of it by following this link:
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N556&distinct_entry=true

There is a flying replica with the Old Rhinebeck collection in the USA, and I can't testify to its accuracy so any colour pics of a flying one should be discounted as evidence.
http://oldrhinebeck.org/ORA/nieuport-11/

Even though the N.11 is a pretty tiny aeroplane a 1/8 scale model is a biggie for rubber power, so hats off to you for general ambition.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 04, 2015, 11:30:52 AM
'Nieuport Fighters in Action' has this underside contempory shot. Looks pretty straight again.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 11:50:20 AM
Excellent, thank you. Nice shots showing the structure through the fabric.

Quote
Even though the N.11 is a pretty tiny aeroplane a 1/8 scale model is a biggie for rubber power

Wingspan will be 37" and so is quite big, but the Bebe isn't much bigger than the Dr.1 and I think my 1/10th Dr.1 is a bit on the small side. 1/8th scale therefore makes sense to me. I'm quite excited about it...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: TimWescott on May 04, 2015, 12:47:30 PM
One of the things that I hope would happen, should someone invent a decent time machine, would be that a scale enthusiast would go back in time, buy some good (period) camera equipment, and come back with some good quality negatives of all these old subjects.

Of course, to avoid the whole "oops, I killed my grandfather" paradox you'll have to be careful with the really oddball prototypes and one-offs.

An alternative to modeling the actual thing (and this would make me want to hurl, so don't think I'm telling you that you must do it) would be to make an accurate model of one of the currently flying replicas.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: IndoorFlyer on May 04, 2015, 01:00:57 PM
Many replicas of older airplanes use steel tube fuselage structures (instead of wood) for safety considerations, therefore their construction details may be quite different.  Wing and landing gear attach points, a real firewall etc.  Joe Pfeiffer built some of the nicest Nieuport replicas; at least he used original rotary engines.  Used to watch ole' Walt Addems fly his Pfeiffer replica out of Jim Nissen's private airport in Livermore Ca back in the 1980's...

http://www.earlyaviators.com/eaddems.htm

I love a good story behind a specific airplane being modeled (sp?), so if I were building a XI, (but I'm not) I'd go for Walt's since he is an interesting pioneer aviator, and his plane is well documented. He donated the plane to the Museum in San Diego. The EAA Sport Aviation magazine has a good feature article on the Pfeiffer/Addems Nieuport.  It was published back in 1963.

Also a bunch of Addems documentation on the SDASM Archives flicker page.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/sets/72157633102796263/


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 04, 2015, 01:02:12 PM
One of the things that I hope would happen, should someone invent a decent time machine, would be that a scale enthusiast would go back in time, buy some good (period) camera equipment, and come back with some good quality negatives of all these old subjects.

Actually, the early photos are incredibly sharp and detailed; even more so pre-WW1. I have a photo of Bleriot's machine in a field at Dover and you can see the knots in the wood. Surprisingly, many of the German photos in WW1 are poor - why is that?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: TimWescott on May 04, 2015, 01:34:48 PM
Actually, the early photos are incredibly sharp and detailed; even more so pre-WW1. I have a photo of Bleriot's machine in a field at Dover and you can see the knots in the wood. Surprisingly, many of the German photos in WW1 are poor - why is that?

It's not the quality of the pictures that I take issue with -- it's the lack of good sets of walk-arounds photos with instrument panels and details and all that nifty stuff.  Which isn't surprising, it's just not what you can get if you have a camera and you're standing in front of an airplane.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 02:11:59 PM
Quote
many of the German photos in WW1 are poor - why is that?

I suspect British cameras were of superior quality in those days, but I don't know. I had a quick look and there is mention of quite a bit of caution surrounding photos in WWI due to the obvious security risk. May be the Germans took poor photos on purpose so we couldn't tell where the knots were in their aeroplanes.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 04, 2015, 03:46:56 PM
I think the really pin sharp photos from the 1900s and 1910s were glass plate photographs taken by expert photographers with heavy cameras and lots of paraphernalia. I suppose things got more inconsistent once convenience became the thing, and every Tom, Dick and Harry got hold of a Box Brownie or whatever.

Anyway, there are probably hundreds of Nieuport 11 photos around, including loads of clear ones so I reckon you'll be spoiled for choice. Especially as they were flown by so many nationalities.
I've got quite a few books with numerous photos, colour profiles etc., as when I made mine I went a bit OTT on gathering evidence. I always see a scale project as an excuse to buy lots of new books. So don't buy anything without seeing if I can lend you it first ( unless you want to, obviously!) For instance there's 'Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette', the Osprey WW1 Italian aces book,  the Crowood Press's  'Nieuport Aircraft of WW1' and others. If you're going to be at Barkston in three weeks I'll bring them all along.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 04, 2015, 04:26:51 PM
Thanks for the thought Pete. There's no chance I'll get to Barkston before August though! If I'm lucky, I'll make it to dreaming spires in July. Ho hum. I made a start by ordering a book today. You're right - I am spoilt for choice with this one, but you can't have too many photos.

Just conducted an interesting experiment in CAD. I traced around a side view and superimposed it on a photo enlarged to the same size. Not far off, but could use a tweak here and there.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Monique on May 04, 2015, 04:38:31 PM
This is going to be a good one Rich, very nice size too.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: TimWescott on May 04, 2015, 04:45:09 PM
This is going to be a good one Rich, very nice size too.

+1.  I can't wait.

Just conducted an interesting experiment in CAD. I traced around a side view and superimposed it on a photo enlarged to the same size. Not far off, but could use a tweak here and there.

Be careful with that -- photographs can suffer from geometric distortion, so you can't really trust even a straight-on side view to be 100% accurate.  If you're going to tweak the plans based on photos, do it with the photos you'll use for scale documentation.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 04, 2015, 04:58:36 PM
I might get to Dreaming Spires too, although if I only make one trip to Oxford I'm tempted to wait till the new scale day there in September. Anyway,  meantime if you do want a particular book and don't want to fork out I don't mind posting it.

Going back to the fuselage taper thing for a moment, although the Windsock drawing shows an inaccurate curve (as Bill pointed out) the old Harleyford 3-view shows it as dead straight, after a little kink aft of the cockpit. I wouldn't vouch for the accuracy of those old drawings otherwise though.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 08, 2015, 03:09:52 PM
I'll make a start at the front...

The cowling form is prepared out of layers of MDF. The cowling will be 45mm deep but I have added an extra layer of mdf, adding 15mm to the form. I will try planishing an aluminium cowling first. This worked out well for the Dr1 although I didn't use it, thinking it was too heavy. I no longer think it was and this might be a good way of keeping the build balanced in the right place. If it is too heavy, or goes horribly wrong, I'll use it to make a plastic vacuum formed cowling.

The method is described in Eric Coates articles as complied by Vic Smeed in the book 'Scale Aircraft for Free Flight'.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: dorme on May 08, 2015, 05:09:44 PM
All of the Nieuports from the 11 up to the 28 had tapered fuselages from top to bottom.  The only exceptions were the 12 and 14 dual place aircraft.  Addems is not an accurate replica for the fuselage.  He made his fuselage without the taper.  I know of no model that has that taper (Guillows, Proctor, etc) and thus many use them as copies.
Incidentally, the other very obvious mistake that many make is that the lower wing is tight to the fuselage. Because of the taper the lower wing has a gap of several inches (in full size) at the TE of the wing. Other mistakes are made because very few decide to scope out details about the real one and just use what every one else does.
I know about the Nieuports as I have copies of the original drawings from the Nieuport Factory dated 1915.
Below is an AutoCad drawing of the Nieuport 11 showing the side, top and bottom for a peanut size aircraft. 
Enjoy.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 08, 2015, 05:43:01 PM
Thank you Dorme. Interesting point about the t/e gap.

I've found my self back in my garage 'workshop', so it must be spring. Started bashing out the cowling. This is my kind of fine scale modelling - with a hammer! I am using the 'if it starts to wrinkle, bash it' technique. Although, read 'bash' as tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap etc, etc.

I have worked my way slowly around the circumference of the form, many dozen times, tapping as frequently as I can in a zone of about 1 inch wide above the point of the form where the cowlings radius starts. The aluminium curls around the form quite happily as long as it isn't forced too much in one place. As it curls inwards, the metal wants to fold and it is important to keep these folds from developing inside the area of the final cowling edges. I have got it to a point a little further than these photos show, and I need to be careful as there are a couple of folds that could give me gyp.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: PeeTee on May 08, 2015, 06:14:40 PM
Rich

Very interesting. What thickness aluminium are you using, and would it be possible to form litho plate in this way?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: skyraider on May 08, 2015, 06:52:15 PM
The FSI Nieuport plan is nearly accurate but doesn't show the lower wing
separation that dorme pointed out. Interesting though. I think most often
than not most builders refer to the Nieto drawings. While its basically good,
it doesn't show the lower taper. Everything else on that drawing seems to be
in order although I haven't researched it enough to be 100% positive.
Great subject Rich. Will be following along.

Skyraider


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 08, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
Properrrr Jooobb!  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on May 09, 2015, 12:25:52 AM
Despite the short nose and flat upper wing, I found the Nieuport 11 is a very stable rubber model. On hand winds only, I used to hand launch my Peanut off my front porch, it did one circuit of the front yard and I would, often as not, catch it as it cruised by.  I always wanted to fly it indoors with max winds etc.

I attribute the stability to wing sweep and the dihedral of the lower. I had a fake fixed rotary in mine, with all the cyls, but figured a spinning effort was too much work, at that size. Larger version should handle it better(?). I was thinking make the cyls rotate around a fixed crank case. This would allow for thrust adjustments without disturbing the cyl's  rotation and visa versa. However large diameter bearing, without chatter may be a problem. I was thinking having plastic vanes on the cyls to rotate. On my P=nut, scale crank case dia. was sufficient to allow stretch winding motor, out the front

I used Ian Stair's  Nieuport 11 scale drawings, which I think quite good. He shows what I believe are correct fuselage taper at both upper and lower longerons. IIRC, basic Nieuport 17 fuselage frame and tail surfaces are dimensionally identical to 11. You might want to consult Rosenthall and or Bergen Hardesty Neu. 17 drawings.

On a side note: I grew up knowing Walt Addems, Jim Nissen, and Joe Phieffer. My pop was friends with them all and believe "our" old Fairchild 22 was sold to, rebuilt, and flown by  Phieffer and sons, for many years.  I knew Jim Nissen as the manager of San Jose Municipal Airport (now SJ international) but during WW11, he was an Ames (NACA) test pilot. He was the only pilot to have purposely flown a P-51B as a towed glider!  When i was 9, I went with my dad to view his original JN-4 project, which he eventually restored to flying condition.  Walt's Nieuport was actually one of two built by Joe Phieffer. IIRC, they claimed the finished empty weights came out within 7 lbs of each other. Joe had also built a Sopwith Pup replica.  I recall an interesting mock combat exhibition, with Addem's  vs Jim Applebee's Fok E-111 replica, at Merced Fly-in, about 1960.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 09, 2015, 02:55:15 AM
Quote
Very interesting. What thickness aluminium are you using, and would it be possible to form litho plate in this way?

0.7mm thick, and dunno about litho plate. The sheet gets stretched around the contour so is thinned out. Litho plate would probably get too thin.

Thanks PP - I am using Ian Stairs drawings as a basis at the moment. I am mostly trying to inhale information at the moment, so its great to get posts like this.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 09, 2015, 05:18:23 AM
The cowling will look great. What fun to use a hammer on a model- and not even in anger!
 I'm really glad you're going with scale upper wing (non) dihedral too, and wish I had with mine. I thought I'd get away with it due to the sweepback disguising it a bit, but because I made the dihedral breaks each side of the centre section, rather than at the centre itself, it just means the whole wing has a strange looking kink to it from certain angles. Anyway, after your Dr1 it should be a doddle to trim.
(The old Eric Coates maxim is that, from a stability point of view, 3 degrees of sweepback is approx equivalent to 1 degree of dihedral)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 09, 2015, 06:12:51 AM
Quote
after your Dr1 it should be a doddle to trim.

The Dr1 was a doddle to trim. I didn't do much to it at all - the only 'trim' required turned out as 1/16" up on starboard aileron. It has no thrust adjustment at all (yet). I made it look hard by being slow to add enough nose-weight (Bill had some influence here) and add a wider bladed propeller (I am going to make a new prop with even more blade area). The whole exercise taught me that dihedral is over-rated, or at least overly worried about, at least at this sort of scale. There was quite a bit of speculation about 'correct' wing and tail incidences, but I built it as the full size prototype and funnily enough it was fine. It also taught me the importance of crash-a-bility to survive my inability to get things right quickly. I am going to take these lessons into this build with me. I will stubbornly stick to full size incidences, sweep back and dihedral, get the cg well forward (ali cowling...and a bloody great engine) and I hope to achieve a similar result of disassemblage (!) on impact with obstructions (the ground) as the tripe.

That's starting to sound like a mission statement...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 09, 2015, 07:00:34 AM
Rich, you obviously are adept at aluminium-bashing. I never was, despite Terry Manley telling me how easy it was (but then he worked on aircraft). He said the key was to use pure ali sheet and keep annealing. I think when I tried it, my ali was too hard  No chance with litho plate, I think.
How are you going to attach the top wing?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 09, 2015, 09:16:57 AM
Quote
after your Dr1 it should be a doddle to trim.
The whole exercise taught me that dihedral is over-rated, or at least overly worried about
It's taken me years to start to believe this, despite Bill and others saying so so often. Once you stop worrying about it it opens up a whole raft of new subjects.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on May 09, 2015, 10:33:26 AM

Rich said "The whole exercise taught me that dihedral is over-rated, or at least overly worried about"

Pete said "It's taken me years to start to believe this, despite Bill and others saying so so often. Once you stop worrying about it it opens up a whole raft of new subjects."

One of life's "ah ha!" lessons, especially as I get older (I'm 65) has been the discovery that we, as humans growing up, are largely trained to tune into negativity. In modeling it is the "It can't be done attitude" oft exhibited in these very forums.   "We can't use scale tail outlines", "can't use scale dihedral" "scale airfoils" et al, etc. I think we worry so much about thinking "it just isn't done", we miss out on many of the things we actually can do, and forget to even try.

Now if i had just learned that at a much younger modeling age, I wouldn't have wasted so much valuable time and abundant energy developing such a mental block, in the first place!!!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: dorme on May 09, 2015, 10:53:52 AM
I fully agree with you, PackardPursuit on those statements of accepting the norm.  It tends to leave many of us to not think about reinventing the wheel. I have found that there are times went one needs tail weight or upthrust. 
As far as dihedral, I have seen Ray Harlan fly scale aircraft w/o any dihedral, and we were amazed!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mooney on May 09, 2015, 12:39:45 PM
Hi PackardP,  too back up your statement, about 11 or so years ago, there was a nice guy that came into the bulletin board forums and happily posted photos of his many models w/o dihedral and stated that ya don't hafta have it.  The reaction was quite negative.  Shame he was more than happy to discuss his models and techniques, but was roundly dismissed.  I built a Dr1 from Skyraider's Lee kit and I didn't trust myself to be able to trim it w/o dihedral, so I added it.  The Dr1 was stable and I flew it in the wind, but it was proven to me when I saw another flying well w/o dihedral.  FTR, mine was light, but no record setter.  I will do another w/o dihedral.

Awesome stuff so far Rich.  How can I get anything done when you are building stuff like this? (Grin)

Moon


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 09, 2015, 02:19:47 PM
there was a nice guy that came into the bulletin board forums and happily posted photos of his many models w/o dihedral and stated that ya don't hafta have it.  The reaction was quite negative.  Shame he was more than happy to discuss his models and techniques, but was roundly dismissed. 
One thing there is never a shortage of in scale is experts telling you 'it won't fly'. When I began around 1965 I bought a book by Ron Moulton called Flying Scale Models. An excellent book for its time but I took too seriously the statements that models needed a minimum of 3 - 5 degrees dihedral and 25% tail area. Since then I have lost count of the number of 'impossible' models I've seen fly. Off the top of my head, some of these I have flown or witnessed include
Nieuport 11, 17, SPAD, DR1, Fokker DVII, DVIII, DV, EIII, Albatros DV, Spirit of St Louis, Morane  N and Parasol and Lacey!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on May 09, 2015, 05:28:18 PM
All these posts regarding dihedral etc. have got me convinced to the extent that I've just altered the top wing on my little Sopwith Tabloid (build over on micro R/C) and rather than messing about with incidences, decalage etc. I'm redrawing the fuselage plan with scale values. Maybe Tommy Sopwith and Fred Sigrist knew what they were doing?

Back to this topic - looking good Rich, especially the metal bashing. Test flights at OW next week?

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 09, 2015, 05:35:52 PM
Cowling practice over! Nearly, but not quite. I'm not happy with this and will make another. Main problem is, at some stage, the aluminium has ridden up the form slightly without me noticing, and I've lost 4mm off the overall depth of the cowling. Really need to tighten that clamp right up! I am happy to have managed to get enough flat on the front of the cowling though. I was worried I wouldn't be able to achieve this. There are two 'beginnings of folds' that tried to spoil it, but these have proved to be easy to tap and polish away. Worth bearing in mind for the next one. Plus quite a few dings where I've got a bit too heavy handed. They would polish out eventually but I need to listen to Eric and get a hide hammer.
Things I must do better - more patience ie. more tapping, less banging. More frequent annealing. Tighten the clamp tightererer.

For reference, this cowling weighs in at 30g.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 09, 2015, 05:41:29 PM
Hi Dave,

I believe that if you set incidences as full size prototype, the aircraft has much more chance of 'sitting in the air' like the full size one.

Quote
Test flights at OW next week?

I reckon I could chuck the cowling like a frisbee further than some models I have built. Unfortunately I won't be at OW until July  :(.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Ployd on May 09, 2015, 08:19:51 PM
Hi Rich Moore

As an ex aeronautical "tin basher" I would suggest that for your next cowl you extend the width of the sheet by at least 6 to 8mm below the finished depth line of the cowl to allow for creep. You can tighten the clamp only so far but during the forming process the aluminium will move. When hand fabricating a cowl with such a deep draw I would add extra metal at the top and use a lemon wood mallet with a wedge shape nose and a hard wood backing bar which allows you to drive the metal down to the form (effectively stretching the metal) and shifting the resulting puckers into the centre of the form block where it can be trimmed away. For plenishing, I always used a light weight turned aluminium hammer with a slightly domed highly polished face. A panel beaters hammer would do the same thing.

Ployd in OZ


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on May 09, 2015, 08:52:25 PM
Rich
Really enjoying the aluminum forming! Keep it up. Ployed seems to know what's  what. Me personally, I would have tried to spin the cowl full round and then trimmed the non- Nieuport areas.

When we built our full size Nieu[port 82 E, we had cowls spun. Quite an eye opener. Hardest part was making/turning the hardwood form, which due to atmospheric instability, tends to move, even self-destruct very quickly. IIRC, we had four cowls turned. One for us and some to sell. All were gone within a year, two tops.

Regarding scale setups of decalage , incidences, and washout etc, I agree that is GENERALLY the best place to start, even for rubber scale models. If you think about it, using non-scale but "traditional" or "typical" model set ups, renders a flying machine that is not at all a dynamic representative of the prototype.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 10, 2015, 04:25:04 AM
Thanks Ployd, I have a new piece all ready to go that'll cover it. I think I needed to get one out of the way to get the learning embedded in my head. I like to call it 'failing to learn', in other words, you learn more from failure than getting it right first time!

If I get this cowling right, I know it will be immensely satisfying.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 10, 2015, 04:40:14 AM
It's always a good idea to get the hardest bit out of the way first! Also, it lets you build the model to fit the cowling, rather than the other way round.
Since I haven't the skills to bash cowlings, my approach is to wander around hardware shops looking at aluminium pots and pans and kettles. The staff look sceptical when I get the calipers out. I don't care if my model is 1/8.736!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 10, 2015, 04:54:26 AM
Quote
it lets you build the model to fit the cowling, rather than the other way round

Yep, this is part of my logic. My Dr.1 cowling came out eeever so slightly too small. Partly because I had originally made the form for .7mm ali but ended up using it with very thin plastic.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on May 10, 2015, 11:58:17 AM
Scale modeler's constant dilemma! I came to feel that "off the self" and "scale" didn't necessarily coincide! Could never understand why William's Bros. chose odd diameter's for their smaller WWI wheels??!! Seemed they never had right size for my 1/12 scale WWI fighter projects. And while their engine cylinders and guns were in rather standard scales(1/12-1/8-1/6 and even 1/4) I could never find a standard scale need for 1-7/8 diameter "clincher". Oh well. ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Work In Progress on May 13, 2015, 10:51:22 AM
I believe that if you set incidences as full size prototype, the aircraft has much more chance of 'sitting in the air' like the full size one.

It all depends. If you fly it in similar parts of its speed range, in relation to the stall, to how you imagine the full size flying, then yes. similar angles will tend to do that.

Take a full size WW2 fighter, its sit in the air at full speed straight and level (maybe 4x the 1G stall speed) will be much more nose down that at a normal cruise (maybe 2.5x 1G stall speed) and very different again form its attitude at the speed for best climb or best loiter time (maybe 1.5x 1G stall speed).

With a well powered RC model you are covering a similar range of speeds to the full size. But often with free-flight, especially rubber free-flight, we are trimming for  a much narrow speed range, generally much closer to the stall, probably around the 1.5x 1G stall speed, to make good use of limited available power. So with scale angles the aeroplane will tend to sit quite nose up just as the full size would the low end of its own speed range. In those cases a bit more positive incidence will make more nose-level, a bit more like the aeroplane we are accustomed to see in the war movies or air shows.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 13, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
Had another go at the cowling. Failed - not in the right frame of mind at all - much too angry!

I had another go and got these two pictures along the way. This one might be OK. The dimples aren't too deep and I have had a go on a bit with some fine grade wet/ dry which proved promise. I did end up with a few folds within the finished area, but these were flattened out against a solid steel block and aren't too easy to see now. I don't think I can planish a better finish without a harder form, so a process of wet/dry followed by a jolly good polish with something like Brasso will have to suffice, unless someone can suggest better. I will no doubt vacuum form a few spares.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 13, 2015, 05:22:47 PM
That's looking good now Rich .... I've got to have a go at this sometime so that I can feel your pain!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 13, 2015, 05:33:17 PM
You should definitely have a go. I think I need to get my hands on some better tools. Biggest problem is that this particular cowling comes so far round to the front and it is really difficult to get the folds away from the final cowling area.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 13, 2015, 05:43:52 PM
I've been looking at a few things .... one of them was the Sopwith Baby (complimenting the Bebe?).
This has a horseshoe cowl that I guess would be a little easier?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 14, 2015, 02:29:12 AM
Cool. Have a go. It is an interesting process. I think it is a rewarding one - will be if I can get the finish...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 14, 2015, 02:43:37 AM
The nearest I got to doing this was to modify a commercial cowl over a wooden form to alter its profile slightly. This for a Sopwith Triplane. I used pretty coarse wet and dry to remove blemishes and then gave it to my friendly garage to buff up on the polishing wheel. It came out perfect - too shiny possibly for the Bebe but I was then adding the engine turning.
If you end up with a small hole or crease, it might be worth looking into aluminium welding - add a blob and file it down. There's a bloke at the August Nats every year. I'm sure it would be the work of seconds for someone who knows what they're doing.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 15, 2015, 05:12:05 PM
I've finished with all the tapping. Now it's all about rubbing. The biggest dings have been independently identified and tapped out from the inside with a hammer over a metal block. If I could produce a steel form, which I can't, I imagine the planishing process would produce a much better finish. Because I have had to use a soft, mdf form, I've ended up with a dimply cowling. However, nothing that can't be smoothed out...

...I've started with a medium file, moved on to 80 grit sandpaper, then 400 grit wet/dry. Picture here is after a good going over with 600 grit wet/dry. There are still a few dings that need a bit of attention, but these will go. I will save any further polishing until I have cut out the final shape.

The next step is to work out the shape of the cut out. The shape of the cowling cut out in the 3-view doesn't match the photos I have studied so far. I need to determine if this is an error or the drawing features a different type of cowling.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on May 15, 2015, 05:16:44 PM
Nice tin bashing Rich, very nice indeed.

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 15, 2015, 05:30:05 PM
Cutouts in the rotary cowling are so easy to get wrong and I've done it a few times. I never rely on drawings; I make the hole too small and then take a little bit out at a time, over a period. Then I spend a lot of time just comparing with photos and opening it up. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 15, 2015, 05:36:11 PM
I have made the hole as small as my attempt at metal bashing allowed. I think it is just about enough.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 15, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
Quote
How are you going to attach the top wing?

Mmm. As you have obviously noticed, hence your question, the lack of centre section forces a different approach to the usual wire in tube upper wing arrangement. Unless I come up with something really clever, I will probably fix them permanently to a pop off turtledeck. The curving longeron makes this interesting. The thing that bothers me the most about this set up is how to preserve the stitching between the turtledeck and fuselage sides.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 15, 2015, 07:22:18 PM
Instead of making the decking removable, could you make the two front cabane struts tubular, and have corresponding vertical  pins in the wing so that it drops down onto them? Maybe then held in place by another pin or clip through the TE at the rear cabane apex.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 16, 2015, 04:23:25 AM
Quote
How are you going to attach the top wing?

Mmm. As you have obviously noticed, hence your question, the lack of centre section forces a different approach to the usual wire in tube upper wing arrangement. Unless I come up with something really clever, I will probably fix them permanently to a pop off turtledeck. The curving longeron makes this interesting. The thing that bothers me the most about this set up is how to preserve the stitching between the turtledeck and fuselage sides.


I have made two models with 'detachable' turtledecks and both were destroyed when the turtledeck detached, or moved, at some altitude. The trouble is, for it to be crashproof, it does have to be able to move.
Unless I am mistaken, the top wing is joined in the middle; certainly on the 17 which I have drawn up (to replace a previous one which 'popped off'). I propose to make the wings just locate with each other with short pegs. The front and rear cabane struts are bent outwards for about an inch in the usual way. The rear V, being at the root, presents no problem. The front verticals, being out from the centre, need to locate on tubes bound to the spars outboard. The only compromise would be a slot in the covering from the strut end to the root so it can be slid in. Then a band between discrete hooks. After assembly, the slot is covered with a length of Tamiya masking tape sprayed with the fabric colour, not tea.
Only a little flexibility is needed - it doesn't have to fly apart. I recall Terry Manley's Strutter which posed similar problems. The wings located on dowels, allowing a very little movement, but the extra struts were screwed to the wing. It flew for years with a lot of big crashes; far heavier than this one will experience.

Now I think about it, the locating pegs are not necessary.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 16, 2015, 03:38:17 PM
Now you mention it, my Dr1 did lose the turtledeck and therefore the top two wings mid-flight on one occasion (https://youtu.be/7AIWL8jBTVM (https://youtu.be/7AIWL8jBTVM)). It hasn't happened since adding more magnets though, and the tripe is quite heavy. I have found it to be quite a useful method and it has definitely saved the model from destruction on many occasions. I will consider this problem carefully though. Plenty of time to ponder.

I've come back to this. Bill, I can see how your approach would work well. The reason for the detachable turtledeck on the dr1 was driven by the wings being one piece, and there is no joint. On the 11, although the joint is in the middle, the wing attachment doesn't have to deviate far from traditional methods. Anyway, still plenty of time to ponder...




Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 16, 2015, 06:02:02 PM
Now you mention it, my Dr1 did lose the turtledeck and therefore the top two wings mid-flight on one occasion (https://youtu.be/7AIWL8jBTVM (https://youtu.be/7AIWL8jBTVM)). It hasn't happened since adding more magnets though, and the tripe is quite heavy. I have found it to be quite a useful method and it has definitely saved the model from destruction on many occasions. I will consider this problem carefully though. Plenty of time to ponder.
Ah yes, the DR1. That's a third one I built like that and it tried to kill me.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 25, 2015, 04:57:16 PM
Still working at the front end...playing around with the Le Rhone.
Experimenting with the cylinders first. I have represented the fins in the past using thread to reasonable effect, but thought I'd try a different approach. Using 2 diameters of balsa discs, creates a chunky version which I think would look quite effective on a smaller model. With this being so big I think I need more fins, more narrowly spaced to capture the real thing, so I have made one with cereal box card. Shouldn't look too bad when grubbied up.
Hub has been spun in a cordless drill. (Balsa mounted to 4mm threaded bar).

1st pic shows both balsa and card cylinders.
2nd pic shows card stock used for card discs. Card seems to be often overlooked. It is a marvellous material, and free! I suppose it is rather heavy, but who cares when it is up front?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 25, 2015, 06:47:30 PM
Agree- both look better than thread and the card finned cylinder is especially effective. Nice manly choice of cereal box too!



(not sure silver is quite your colour for your finger nails though)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on May 25, 2015, 08:19:05 PM
Rich,
Just catching up with this thread.  The drawing in your reply #49 appears to show approximately a Nieuport 16 cowling for the larger Le Rhone engines.  It's cutout was different from that of the 80HP Le Rhone cowlings.  Photo attached shows Lafayette Escadrille pilot William Thaw with a Nieuport 16.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: IndoorFlyer on May 25, 2015, 10:45:38 PM
Is that image reversed or did the prop actually turn anti-clock from the pilot's perspective?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 26, 2015, 04:11:02 AM
Hi Mark,

Quote
The drawing in your reply #49 appears to show approximately a Nieuport 16 cowling for the larger Le Rhone engines

It is a drawing of the Ni11 by Ian Stairs, enlarged to suit the size of my model. He shows a seperate drawing of the bigger engine, but the cowlings are drawn the same. The only difference is the size of the engine hub. I have since altered the shape of the cut out to match photographs as best as I can, although I haven't actually cut the cowling yet. The only problem seems to be the radius of the curve where the inner cut deviates to the edge, which appears to be drawn too tight.

Rich


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 27, 2015, 05:07:38 PM
A bit more powerhouse. Spark plugs have been 'turned' from hardwood dowel in a cordless drill. The last four are much better than the first five.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 27, 2015, 05:51:23 PM
Looking very effective Rich  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 24, 2016, 03:32:26 PM
In an attempt to get myself building again, I have been looking at this project. I haven't neglected it completely - I've been preparing drawings and I am not far off starting on the fuselage. I have also been collecting photos for documentation including photos of the Le Rhone.

I have played around with ways of representing the copper intake piping that delivers the fuel mixture to each cylinder. I tried heating and bending plastic tubing, painted with copper paint. This showed promise and looked quite good, but I found it difficult to get an even heat and couldn't make 2 the same. I might try again, but in the meantime I have been playing with actual copper - you can't beat the real thing for authenticity. I bought some 3/16" copper tube, but couldn't bend it without kinking as the walls of the tubing was too thin. My latest attempt is with 3/16" copper brake pipe which takes a tight bend without kinking as it is quite thick walled. I have used a springy pipe bending tool that slides over the pipe and helps prevent kinking. I need to flatten the lower part of the pipe a bit but it looks promising.

The model le rhone shown in the pics is now a concept model. I am going to start again because I want to incorporate a few improvements.

I include a drawing I made of the Le Rhone as an exercise. It is drawn in a modelling resolution, if that makes sense. What I mean is that it has the number of cooling fins I can model and 'crude' springs that are buildable etc.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on April 24, 2016, 04:35:18 PM
Rich, good to see you have picked this one up again. The copper thing reminds me of something I did many years ago, after reading it in WW1 Aero magazine. I mixed up graphite powder with melted beeswax, let it cool and shaped it - I sculpted the funny trumpet thing on top of the DH34 and one of those convoluted German exhausts (I poured the wax into rubber tube and then slit it open). I poked in a few copper wires, painted the whole lot with more graphite, connected it up to 6 volts and dunked it in a solution of copper sulphate to plate it. Then melted the wax out, smoothed it and painted it. It worked remarkably well, but in this case I would stick to bending the tube! - looks good.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on May 10, 2016, 02:21:27 PM
Rich,

just catching up on this thread, as I've been off line for quite a while.

You might try making a brass turning knife, with half of your spark plug profile, filed into the edge. This edge will work (w/balsa) square, but cuts better if filed back at a 45deg. This leaves a chisel edge all along the profile.  Firmly mounted on a suitable hndle this knife will produce repeatable spark plugs turned in the drill. OBTW, rotate balsa so that the flat side of chisel edge faces into rotation.

A similar tool could be made using a profiled 1/16" ply edge, covered with sand paper?

STILL AN INERESTING PROJECT!!!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 02, 2016, 04:52:39 PM
Thanks for the suggestion regarding the brass spark plug cutter packardpursuit. I will make one. The problem with Le Rhones is having to make 9 of everything, so it becomes necessary (and worth the effort) to find methods that allow consistant production.

I am nearing a time when I can crack on with this project. I've had a couple of false starts (restarts even) but life has got in the way a bit. Hasn't stopped me plotting though - I have built it a few times in my head and have worked out a few options for some of the constructional details, so when I get going, hopefully it'll go together quickly. Should manage to have it finished in time for the August Nationals. Oh, wait no, that was brought forward to May, so missed that. It'll be finished for 2017 then...

Got my hands on a copy of Joseph Nieto's drawings from the Smithsonian. Came in a reptile skin envelope, which was pretty cool. I know these drawings are not the most accurate, but they are nice to look at and will be a useful reference alongside the 3-views and photographs. It is surprising how the outlines differ between different drawings. Fortunately, there are some decent photos for this one.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 02, 2016, 05:26:47 PM
Should manage to have it finished in time for the August Nationals. Oh, wait no, that was brought forward to May, so missed that. It'll be finished for 2017 then...

Rich, if you want a nearer deadline to aim for, there's the Oxford 'Scalefest' meeting on Port Meadow, 2nd Oct.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 02, 2016, 05:51:01 PM
Hi Rich,

Love your work!  I have had to come to grips with rotary engines for my 1/12 Scout and Peanut Sommer monoplane.

I had the benefit of complete Williams Bros leRhone cylinders for the Scout however the crankcase was all me and if you haven't seen the thread, the way I did it could be of interest.  Also the valve gear issues - I made this out of styrene rod and sheet on the Sommer and there are some good pics on that thread

I have been turning my thoughts to how to best reproduce those le Rhone inlet pipes in other scales and for when you can no longer find the WB products and one possibility is Hearty Clay which Rich Weber in the US alerted me to.  This is a kind of modelling clay you get in art shops that dries so light you won't credit it.  I used it to produce the cockpit coaming on the Scout  - if you check out come of the early pictures on that thread you'll see what you can do with it. 

Anyway, I intend to produce a master of the intake pipe from which I will make a mould and the idea is to just squeeze a blob of Hearty Clay into the mould 9 times!  Haven't done it yet but I'm confident it will work.

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on June 02, 2016, 06:27:39 PM
Hi Rich,

Good to see you getting back to this! I know what you mean about 3 views. A lot of the stuff I've amassed for the proposed Bulldog can't even agree on wingspan...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 02, 2016, 11:02:44 PM
I worked in aircraft restoration and reproduction for a number of years (have just been pulled back in the capacity of projects draftsman). Full size  enthusiasst face exact same  problems modelers face. Namely lack of reliable information! We did a Nieuport 83e for the Japanese and eventually settled on Macchi drawings for a Nieuport 12 and modified as per appropriate  83e photos.  The current feeling is that all Nieuport 2- seaters share the same basic fuselage frame, as do the single seaters.  The  II and 17 also share same tail feathers and landing gear. I suspect Ian stair's drawing reflects those features.

Here is our 83e http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/Fre/Nie81/


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 03, 2016, 05:15:48 AM
Hi Pete - that might be a good event to aim for. Thanks for the heads up.

Mike - that thread is a mine of useful ideas, especially the nose-block detail. I am struggling to talk myself out of another rotating engine though (I know it's a bad idea from a practical point of view, but it looks sooo good in photos!).

Dan - enjoy your birthday


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 03, 2016, 05:35:38 AM
Great photos PP


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: FFScott on June 03, 2016, 08:33:02 AM
Rich - could you tell us about your annealing process?  Do you remove the cowl piece from the MDF before heating?  And how hot do you need to get the aluminum (do you look for color changes?)  Is it then allowed to cool down slowly?  Do you try to do the whole cowl at once, or just individual areas?  How do you keep it from warping?

Thanks,
Scott


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 03, 2016, 12:07:14 PM
Hi Scott.
Every now and again, I took the aluminium off the form, held it in pliers and heated it over a blow torch turned down quite low (ie not too furious). Then allowed it to cool. Someone told me to cover in soap, then heat it until soap went black, then cool it. The idea of blackening the soap is that it indicates you have reached the right temperature. I think you are supposed to allow the aluminium to cool slowly, so dunking it in water isn't ideal as this would make the metal go brittle, which you don't want. Patience is the key - lots of little taps is better than a few big ones, and work your way around the work slowly and evenly. With a deep draw like this cowling, as soon as you get a fold starting, if you don't nip it in the bud, you're doomed!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: FFScott on June 03, 2016, 07:29:27 PM
Thanks for the explanation Rich.  Very interesting build!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 04, 2016, 06:37:59 AM
It's been my understanding that soaping was to make clean up easier and "sooting" the aluminum, over a  candle flame was a temp control. IIRC, the soot was to be torched off, providing a positive indicator that the metal had been heated uniformly and adequately to insure annealing overall.  Is my understanding flawed?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 04, 2016, 08:34:05 AM
Flawed thinking? Probably not, but blackening the soap on its own was what someone with a degree in 'jewellery making' advised me to do, and it seemed to work well enough. I would have thought soot would make the process a lot messier.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 04, 2016, 11:23:29 AM
I have always understood the soap to be simply a temperature indicator


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on June 04, 2016, 01:20:44 PM
My metalwork teacher at school told us to use soap as an indicator of temperature when we were annealing aluminium.

This made me think of him, he was an ex Rolls Royce fitter, a real top bloke. Along with my Physics teacher the best teacher I ever had.  By the time I left that school I could use a lathe and a milling machine, could weld, braze and knew how to make a casting...I don't think they let kids near stuff like that now!

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 04, 2016, 03:04:54 PM
It's amazing how much we left to our own devices in those days. A favourite trick among the troublesome element in my metalwork class was to leave a steel ruler in the forge until it was extremely hot, but not actually quite glowing, and then leave it casually on a table sticking out over the edge waiting for some innocent classmate (or the teacher himself) to pick it up.

I sort of get why kids aren't allowed near that stuff so much now, though it is a great shame. I also remember us all standing round suspension bridges made of spruce as we tested them to destruction. The best ones took phenomenal amounts of weight before breaking with a noise like a rifle crack as rhe spruce splintered in all directions and the iron weights came crashing down leaving dents in rhe concrete floor inches from our toes. Terrific fun!
My son told me they were doing the same lesson at his school the other week. I got quite excited for a moment, but sadly they now use art straws instead of spruce and so the whole weight thing has been tamed right down. They probably wear goggles to test them as well. ;D

Sorry, Rich- went off at a bit of a tangent there.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 04, 2016, 04:13:57 PM
We used to soak our hands in ether and set fire to them.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on June 04, 2016, 04:39:27 PM
We played quite a lot with Mercury... It explains a lot when I think about it now....

Sorry Rich!

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 04, 2016, 04:43:37 PM
Chemistry - take the bunsen burner rubber hoses off at the taps, then light the gas - at the tap. Marvellous jape.

We still do bridges at school - mdf sticks 6x6mm hot glued together. I have built a bridge 'tester' so they can wind on the tension using a large wing-nut on a threaded rod. They love testing to distruction, especially when in a team - saves arguments about who gets to take the thing home. The most dangerous thing we do is probably pewter casting. I also let kids loose with blow torches in plumbing practice. They are surprisingly careful when the danger is obvious.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 04, 2016, 04:47:15 PM
Ah, and I remember having a radioactive isotope of some sort in class. As it was passed around the class, teacher said "and don't put it near your eye". A boy (who incidentally had what I'd consider a girls name, if I remember rightly) had the isotope at the time and put it right up to his eye and said "why, will I go blind?".

Dopey pillock. How we laughed...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 04, 2016, 04:53:24 PM
...and spark the electric terminals next to the gas taps. When the taps trick was done properly, many would flare at once as the teacher turned to the board to draw a thermionic valve or somesuch, then go out again as he turned back.
Yes, we had mercury and isotopes too.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 04, 2016, 04:56:17 PM
Oh dear, is this going to turn into a 'those were the days' contest until someone claims they used to saw off their own head in woodwork, boil it down to the bone in a vat of acid (in chemistry), stitch it to a frog's body in biology, and then hide it in the softest teacher's car attached to a homemade baking soda and plutonium time bomb (rustled up in a cookery lesson) all in the course of an average day?

Quick, Rich- tell us more about your Nieuport before this whole thread goes to ruin!  ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 04, 2016, 05:06:18 PM
Seriously though, I'm still quite amazed by the presence of gas taps:
"This will be your teaching lab, Mr Perkins. Your pupils will mostly be bored, disaffected teenagers so we've installed a personal flame thrower at each and every desk."


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 04, 2016, 05:14:20 PM
Ah, but if kids don't get to play with fire exercise their curiosity, are they really learning?

Just putting the finishing tweeks to my latest fuselage drawing now. Then I'm all set to print it and start building. Finally...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Hepcat on June 04, 2016, 07:16:34 PM
reponse to #88.

Mr Fardell,
If you persist in spoiling our fun with your didactic attitude to our tiny diversions I might have to press your ignore button.
One of the Johns


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 04, 2016, 07:39:37 PM
Talking of the ignore button, is it a bit like the nuclear button? If we've all got one, then no one will use it and it will keep the forum peace for years and years.

 And will it all escalate like the arms race too? Even now, someone is probably developing a deadly 'ignore the ignore button' button.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on June 04, 2016, 07:45:47 PM
 :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on June 04, 2016, 08:39:54 PM
Don't like the idea of the ignore button .... Reminds me of that "Did I just hear someone speak?" silliness in the playground.

Good to see you working on the Bebe again Rich  :)

(magnesium in oxygen and the potassium 'bouncing bomb' were my favourites .... though turning the bunsen burner flame orange with scraps of asbestos mat was probably not the best of ideas!)



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on June 05, 2016, 03:59:52 AM
We got a student physics teacher just before 'O' Levels. He'd been an industrial chemist for British Steel for years, then suddenly decided to be a teacher. He was the most accident-prone bloke ever. In the course of one lesson with specific heat capacity experiments galore, he smashed an overhead light, set his tie on fire, dropped his glasses in a boiling water bath and then fished them out and put them straight back on, badly burning his nose. I often wonder what happened to him. He was ace...!

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on June 05, 2016, 08:21:52 PM
 :) :) :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 08, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
Has anyone got any bright ideas about making the rear motor peg less conspicuous on a rubber model? I am considering an internal motor peg, but this removes the ability to attach model to a winding jig simply, with a pin through the peg. I could wind the motor externally and insert it, wound, on a fixture. I think Ivan Taylor did this on his SE5 a few years ago. Another idea is to make use of the upper control linkage entry port for the winding jig retainer pin, although this is further back than I'd like. Simplest idea is just to put within the outer ring of the fuselage roundel.

Any thoughts welcome...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 08, 2016, 04:30:19 PM
I suppose the pin tube for attachment to the winding jig doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing as the motor peg. So if you can make an internal motor peg (maybe accessible through the cockpit?) you could still use the control cable entry point to disguise the hole for a jig retainer pin.

EDIT: Reading what you said again, I think that might be what you meant anyway.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 08, 2016, 05:05:01 PM
Yes, that is one idea, although I was still thinking of having the motor peg there (fitted flush with internal doublers or some such) because I like the security of the tension during winding going to the jig and not the glue joints. It is a bit far back to do this though. Also, I'd need to ensure the peg doesn't move laterally. At all. Normally there is a bit of tolerance depending on how much the rear peg sticks out.

I'm just pondering. Seems a shame to build something nice, and then stick a scaffold pole through the thing. I will probably settle for the usual, but in the outer ring of the roundel, although winding the rubber outside the model has its advantages...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mefot on June 08, 2016, 05:16:26 PM
Have you considered a motor stick ? You could wind the motor outside the model and all the stresses would be taken up by the stick when inserted in the model. It should stop any deflection in the fuselage too  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 08, 2016, 05:26:29 PM
Interesting idea. I've seen this method used a lot on old scale plans. I'm not sure it's appropriate for this size of model though, but I'll give it some thought. It is similar in principle to Ivan's 'out of model' technique I referred to, but with a removable motor stick (once the motor is installed within model). Thanks for the suggestion.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 08, 2016, 05:30:59 PM
Rich, if you have a stooge then winding externally is the best approach. Use a plastic winding tube, slotted at the back for the peg, which of course protrudes either side, and the front for another peg/wire after wound.  In the fuselage are thick, hard sheet pieces with slots, hardened with cyano against wear,  angled to lock the peg against the turns. These are faced with 1/64 ply to stop the peg sliding sideways. Just load the winding tube, locate the peg in the slots, sort out the prop, launch and win the Nationals.





Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 08, 2016, 05:38:49 PM
Mmmm. Yes, this is the sort of thing I'm considering. You have made what has been mushing around in my head a lot clearer. Thanks Bill.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on June 08, 2016, 06:42:19 PM
Bit late to read through tonight .... but Ivan uses the 'half tube' method if that has not been mentioned?
Goodnight!  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: DHfan on June 09, 2016, 08:07:51 AM
Two thoughts
If you are going with the external winding you could use a rolled tube as the stick like a P30 and have a built in blast tube.  Stiff as well, heavier than a stick, but probably lighter than a stick with the reinforcements being proposed.  Russ/ Ivan's half tube sounds along those lines and I am interested in details on it.

For a rear pin arrangement, using a T nut might make hiding at least one end of the aft pin easier.  I don't know if this is like the control system hardware you were thinking of, or if there are sufficiently light T nuts.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: g_kandylakis on June 09, 2016, 08:46:22 AM
Hi Rich,

I had some similar thoughts while building my Avro monoplane.

Here is what i did, more or less, in case it helps:

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=15029.msg115723#msg115723

I was lucky enough to have the fuselage lacing where the rear peg is, so I could pass the stooge wire retainer throug one of the lacing gaps...

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=15029.msg116617#msg116617

Winding it outside and then inserting it is also possible, but I did not get to the point od actually trying it in action. I just used a winding tube, to be sure...

George



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 09, 2016, 04:06:05 PM
Thanks guys. So there are options to consider, and it looks like I can at least start out with the intention of avoiding a visible rear peg. I think it will be worth the effort. I reckon there will be a photo of Ivan's half tube on this forum somewhere...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 09, 2016, 05:34:43 PM
...but, alas, I can't find it.

Except I can.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 09, 2016, 05:53:46 PM
Aha, found a good thread of info here:

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=19828.0 (http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=19828.0)

I knew I had seen something along these lines somewhere. Isn't this forum brilliant?! I quite like the idea of a full tube, so I don't get scared watching the knots evolve, but I suppose the half tube would allow the knots to be massaged out evenly along the length of the motor. The twist lock onto an inner motor peg is lookiing like an attractive proposition.

More stuff to make..but first I will get a pair of sideframes onto my building board...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 10, 2016, 03:31:05 PM
Right, enough talking, time to build stuff.

I have drawn the side frames on CAD and printed these off. Sticky tape has been stuck across the drawing where the glue joints are, to stop wood sticking to the plan. I cut my own strip using a metal rule and a sharp blade. This ensures the longerons are all closely matched. I have cut each part in pairs, and tend to cut these from the same piece of plank as well. The second side will be built over the first as is tradition. I might use sticky tape here as well, although careful glueing usually means side frames are easily parted with a razor blade. Clingfilm is OK, but tends to get in the way sometimes.

Longerons are 1/8" square, sheet parts are 1/8" sheet. Uprights aft of motor peg are lightish wood cut to 3/32"x1/8". More to lighten the appearance of the structure than for any saving in weight. I was tempted to taper the longerons towards the tail, down to 3/32" square, but decided this would be fairly pointless. It shows I am thinking about weight savings at the extremities though, which is a good thing.

I have put the motor peg quite far forward to reduce CoG issues. There is plenty of room for knots and there'll be about 250mm between prop hoook and motor peg. I am hoping to get up to 30 seconds out of this model (and a minimum of 20 secs, of course). Don't really care for much more than that, partly because I'm lazy, but if it flies for any longer it'll be too far away/ too small to enjoy it.

I have good feelings about this one. It has been rattling around in my head for a long time and I'm still excited about it.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 10, 2016, 03:41:30 PM
Rich, looking forward to this one. My Veron Nieuport was doing 30 seconds outdoors yesterday so it should be easy,
I recently tried to do some hard sums on the effectiveness of moving motor pegs, using the law of moments, but I gave up, I wonder just how useful it is. I remember Mike Hetherington explaining the nonsense of the (patented!) Moore diaphragm in terms of moments. Moving the peg does make you feel better though!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 10, 2016, 05:35:38 PM
Great that you've started, Rich. Looking forward to this! Have you narrowed down the choice of schemes yet?
(I know it's early days to worry about that, but I always spend ages trawling the 'net and looking for good colour schemes etc. when I really should be just getting on and building.)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 10, 2016, 06:15:47 PM
Yep. This one. Keeping it simple. I will probably make it quite grubby.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 10, 2016, 06:38:46 PM
Good. It's such a great looking looking little plane that it doesn't really need any frills, so I'm glad you're doing a classic scheme like that (and grubby's good too!)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Hepcat on June 10, 2016, 07:29:48 PM
response to #100.

A motor stick will almost always be heavier than a normal fuselage doing the same job because of the large cross section required to resist twisting and bending loads and then you have the extra weight of a scale fuselage of some kind even if it is lightly built.

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 11, 2016, 07:59:43 AM
Second side is now done and is being left alone to set.

I was worried that I might be getting carried away going for 1/8th scale, but the Bebe is a small aeroplane. Looking at it on the board, it feels right.

I think I have given myself a problem, given where I will need to bend the side frames (aft of cockpit). The lower slab of wood, which reinforces the lower fuselage for U/C and lower wing attachment, is extended back to the motor peg support. Seemed like a good idea when I drew it, but it will resist bending differently to the top longeron. I can trim this back if moisture and heat doesn't assist enough.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 11, 2016, 08:27:51 AM
Rich, I thought the lower longeron had a straight taper from firewall to rear fuse, hence no problem.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 11, 2016, 11:53:56 AM
Obviously I knew that when I drew it... :P. Overthinking already. I've been looking at a structural photo which suggests it stays parallel for a bit, but I am being misled. I have better photos that agree with you. Trouble with leaving a project for too long. Thanks for the correction Bill.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 11, 2016, 02:25:24 PM
Yes but the problem you raised certainly can be an issue with other subjects and needs to be taken into account. One approach is to run the grain vertically and face with 1/64 ply. Another approach I now use is to make a plan view shaped former block and pre bend my side frames using ammonia I tape the frame to the block and then paint on the ammonia with a brush which works well even on hard wood


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 11, 2016, 02:40:23 PM
Look for induced " banana shape" at plane of upper longerons, after assembly. Think sides will react like a "straight edge board" as bent in a row boat hull! Upper Longerons will assume slight sheer swail/rocker.  Sure happened on my peanut Nieuport 11!!

IIRC, real Nieuports are not assembled like models and longerons remain " square' to all refs and axis, nose to tail. Only verticals are slanted.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on June 11, 2016, 03:07:12 PM
Hi Rich,
If you haven't seen/studied the two attached photos, I bring your attention to the asymmetric presentation of the French serial number on the rudder.  This was standard practice   on early Nieuport X, XI, 12 and others; the N at top and the data at bottom only appearing on the port side.  The practice was ended sometime in 1916 during Nieuport 17 production.  The added 3982 number is the RNAS serial.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 11, 2016, 04:11:13 PM
Hi Mark. Thanks. Any idea why they did this 'N' on one side only? Must be a reason.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 11, 2016, 04:20:23 PM
Hi PP. I hear what you are saying. Forewarned is forearmed though and I have a cunning plan. Plus I an eternal optimist.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on June 11, 2016, 07:05:04 PM
Hi Mark. Thanks. Any idea why they did this 'N' on one side only? Must be a reason.


The N is for Nieuport, it's not part of the serial number.   Similarly, the SPADs carried an S and Farmans an F.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 12, 2016, 08:27:31 AM
Packard pursuit has raised a good point. The upper longerons take a more indirect route to the tail than the lower ones. If I just force the side frames into the desired shape, things will be pulled out of shape. I have released the rearmost upright and the upper joint of the rear motor peg support to allow the shear motion happen. The plan is that the net result will be a slightly short upper longeron at the stern post, and ever so slightly tilting uprights which I may correct, if only to release the stress on the joints. I will join the lower fuselage cross pieces first, then worry the upper ones in. This model is already proving to be full of surprises requiring a flexible approach...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 12, 2016, 12:21:40 PM
Rich, when I did mine (spruce longerons) to keep them straight where I wanted them straight, I taped lengths of straight 1/2" sq to each one before pulling them in and putting in the spacers.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 12, 2016, 01:10:12 PM
Were I to do it again, especially in a larger scale, I think I'd build up-side- down, with the upper longerons over the plan,  firewall bulkhead and top x-members added. Then place pre-bent lower longerons in place at front, then add verticals (to tail post). Cardboard jigging to keep everything aligned and right ht. Trim for length at tail post. THEN add any bay sheeting and or diagonals, etc.

I built my peanut using 1/20" sq balsa. To get the top fuselage formers to fit, I sanded the top inside longeron corners flat, with a couple careful passes with sanding block. The swail was perceptible but only if you eyeballed it real close. Will admit to being a bit anal.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 12, 2016, 04:28:04 PM
Firewall on, tail glued together (except upper longeron as it is detached currently). Then tail-most crosspiece added as there is a small change in taper at le of tailplane. Then straight edge thingymajigs attached using rubber bands and remaining cross-pieces added. Built upside down over a centre line. I did the bottom first so I could use the straighteners.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 12, 2016, 05:04:29 PM
Hi team - if you haven't looked at the FSI Nieuport 11 plan it's worthwhile as it certainly shows the subtleties of this little beauty's fuselage.  Not as simple as one may have thought! 

By the way if anyone is familiar with the KK Super Scorpion this is a very complex fuselage with differing tapers and yes after I built it I noticed a hell of a banana which is the natural result!  I built in about 1/8" under the tailplane LE to straighten it out and mine flies like a pussycat.  A clubmate built one as per plan and with any kind of power on it heads straight up.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 13, 2016, 10:08:06 AM
Rich,
I suspect that despite your valiant (and ingenious) efforts to keep lower longerons straight, the problem of built in "banana" geometry will yet arise, as the upper x-members are added.

It's ok by me (and am sure with the others, too) if you just decide to live with it. :o


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 13, 2016, 11:17:05 AM
That's OK. My cunning plan, if it is deemed necessary, is to start again having learnt something in the process, so all is well.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 13, 2016, 04:28:59 PM
 Upper cross-pieces going in. Rearmost one first. One forward of cockpit and one at motor peg position. Motor peg support reattached to upper longeron. All looking ok so far...now it is time to leave it alone, and wait and see what happens.

If all is straight and true within reason, I will add internal gussets between uprights and cross-pieces to toughen things up a bit. Looking at it now I am worried I have a tad too much top to bottom taper. I'm looking forward to picking it up and comparing it to photographs from every conceivable angle...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 13, 2016, 06:48:22 PM
Hi Rich,

You will have worked this out already but the banana effect won't be much in this case but what you could do is to glue a piece of (1/16 x 1/8 or less I'm guessing) along the top longerons and then flat them back off with a long sanding block

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 14, 2016, 01:42:43 PM
So I have removed the fuselage from the board and everything is as I had hoped. No bananas. Trouble is I definitely have messed up my plan view as the top-bottom taper is excessive. I have redrawn it, narrowing the fuselage a bit more at the cockpit and started the tailward taper further forward.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 14, 2016, 02:43:32 PM
Now I'm worried I have under done it. Quite a fine line between looking right and looking wrong. This aeroplane is a pain in the arse and had better be worth it.

The first picture is with, what I think is, way too much top-bottom taper. Poor pilot wouldn't get his leg over that overhang and there is nothing subtle about it. Second photo is a lot more subtle which might be why so many people miss it, although I think I could have got away with a tiny tweak more. Not so much that I can be bothered to change it again though.

I'm looking forward to doing something a little more straight forward. The tailplane is going to be awkward to make thin and warp proof. Any ideas out there?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 14, 2016, 02:53:17 PM
The second one looks fine to me
The tail is a flat plate isn't it? I would try 3 x basswood/ammonia/water-soaked outlines, square balsa ribs and spar, little gussets, cover it now and store it under a hardback copy of War and Peace until needed.
I use full-strength ammonia. It needs a good wash in water afterwards because the ammonia does something chemically to the glue


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 14, 2016, 03:06:01 PM
That's along the lines of what I was thinking. Not really sure if there are any other options really. I'm sure perfect joints will pay dividends here. Now, I've thus far managed to avoid ammonia. Will the local chemist give me a funny look or should I distill my pee and risk being frowned upon by the Mrs?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 14, 2016, 03:08:16 PM
I think, on balance, I'd get it from a hardware store. I use it full strength


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on June 14, 2016, 03:13:58 PM
I do what Bill does with the books, I build and cover/dope the tail parts early on and leave them between two heavy books  for as long as possible - right until just before I need them at the final assembly stage.  It seems to work for me, all of the models on my shelves at home still have nice flat surfaces...

I have never seen ammonia in the hardware shop, will have a look next time I am there and make up some trial pieces for future reference.

Nice project Rich, still following with interest, keep up the good work.

Andrew



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 14, 2016, 03:40:36 PM
The next FF Scale build I do I'll be looking at carbon tube main spars  L.E and T.E. could also be carbon rod or tube.  Avetek have gone with a 1mm carbon front spar in the Strutter.  That would be my fix for your TP.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 14, 2016, 04:26:23 PM
Ok. Am I right in thinking that cyano sticks to carbon? Quite fancy trying it.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: skyraider on June 14, 2016, 04:33:10 PM
Rich,
  It seems to me the taper looks a little much. It looks as though for maybe
a Nie 24/27. I think the FSI drawings and just about accurate for the N-11.
Just my opinion. But its looking good so far.

Skyraider


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 14, 2016, 04:40:24 PM
On a previous Avro 504K tailplane, I used carbon rods for the straight bits. I filed the last 1/8" to a smaller diameter to fit aluminium tube which I bent for the corners. When it was all pinned down, thin cyano wicked in. On a diesel Nieuport the entire outline was aluminium tube. They all worked; the key here is to use the lightest method, as the ratio of moment arms is 1g  = 6g


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 14, 2016, 05:21:09 PM
Ok. Am I right in thinking that cyano sticks to carbon? Quite fancy trying it.

Like the proverbial to a blanket!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Art356A on June 14, 2016, 08:24:52 PM
I wasn't following this build, but I should have suggested this around reply #125. The inside bulkheads are depron food tray but they can be anything flat, cheap and easy to cut. On this job and many that preceded it I made one for every station, taped them all in and then cut the tops and bottoms off so they wouldn't be glued in. Wrong. Just tape one into every second station, install your woodwork at the empty stations, and when dry remove the forms and glue the rest of the crosspieces in.

Bananaproofing is done prior to building the sides by matching up your longeron stiffness.

a.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 16, 2016, 04:33:45 PM
Gun!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on June 17, 2016, 02:29:50 PM
I approve of your gun.

Inspector Lewis


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 17, 2016, 05:20:54 PM
Thanks Mark.

More about Gun... I drew a few key bits like the magazine and main body of the gun up on CAD and managed to get them laser cut which makes life a lot easier. The rest is bamboo skewers and paper. I like the wrapped paper strips around the bamboo - this adds a lot to the model. The pistol grip and handle stock is hardwood. I've painted it black for starters - I now just need to make it look more like metal and a little varnish/ oil on the hardwood will bring it to life. The hardest part has been the ring sight, which I'm not very happy with compared to the rest of it, but I can live with it (it'll soon get snapped off and lost anyway).

Whoops - photos in wrong order


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on June 17, 2016, 05:53:09 PM
Nice gun Rich  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on June 17, 2016, 06:05:13 PM
I have a feeling this is going to be a good 'un!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 18, 2016, 02:37:42 AM
Nice job Rich. Just brush it with pencil lead dust now. Rub pencil on sandpaper to obtain


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 18, 2016, 05:36:43 PM
Thanks to Mike for the following suggestion - the powdered pencil. What a fantastic wheeze this is! I rubbed a pencil on some sandpaper and applied with a soft dry brush. I may have got carried away but I think it has made an authentic gun metal effect without resorting to more paint. The only other addition has been a bit of furniture wax on the hardwood bits and a leather strap atop the magazine, which is from the remainder of Ltn. Richard Wenzel's coat.

Other less photogenic progress has occurred on the Bebe, namely gussets and the formers to the top deck. A bit of wire bending next me thinks...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 18, 2016, 06:08:35 PM
That gun looks downright dangerous.
Just needs an aeroplane underneath it now.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 18, 2016, 06:15:31 PM
Great gun! I want one and am definitely going to try the powdered pencil trick as soon as possible.

(Hmmm...would  a Lewis gun look out of place on the wing of a Fairchild 24?)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 18, 2016, 06:28:10 PM
Not if you built two - one on each wing


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on June 18, 2016, 06:54:52 PM
Amazing! Great detail and what a convincing metal effect. You can stop now - no need to build the rest :)

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 19, 2016, 04:33:04 PM
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20305.0;attach=146131;image

Rich that came up mint!  There are other much more involved techniques using paint but the good old pencil dust trick is simple and foolproof.  I did a Lewis in 1/12 for my Bristol Scout but this was the jacketed version - The stripped down version you did has more interesting bits!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 20, 2016, 04:35:17 PM
A bit of wire bending. I don't like the idea of lashing the cabane struts directly to the longerons and I want to build in a bit of movement to absorb the inevitable hard arrivals, so I have passed the wire through aluminium tubes which will be stitched and epoxied to the fuselage and the wire will be free to twist within - a sort of torsion bar system. The rear struts will slide into wing tubes fixed to the rear wing spar. The front struts will receive 'L' shaped hooks that'll be attached to the wings front spar. There will be an independant wire-in-tube at the front spar and an internal retaining band to hold the wings together. This set up will allow the wings to part at the central join without having to have a clearance slot in the wing itself. Hopefully the ability to absorb energy and come apart will add crashability as opposed to breakability.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 20, 2016, 05:46:28 PM
Hi Rich, I was just looking back over this very interesting thread and saw that there had been a question about how to best finish the cowling once you had beaten it.  It occurred to me that you could chuck the whole thing back up accurately in a 4 jaw chuck where you clamp band is and either take a really fine cut and/or use fine emery tape to linish it at high speed.

You'd just want to tap in the edges of your cut out area well so that it didn't pick up on you.

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on June 20, 2016, 06:46:47 PM
Rich, Looking at your very tidy wire bending I was puzzled at how you managed the bends right next to the ends of the tubing. Probably a simple solution but I don't feel that simple at the moment :)

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 21, 2016, 02:18:01 AM
Hi John. Nothing clever here. Worked from the middle out. Only once forgot to add the tube before starting the next bend! The actual bends were just done with one pair of long nosed pliers with repeated checking against the drawing.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 22, 2016, 05:55:39 PM
I didn't necessarily intend to add the stringers, but the 1/32" sheeting needs the support. I'm glad I did because they look nice even if they are getting covered up.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 22, 2016, 06:03:27 PM
Not to be the "scale police" ::), but I thought 11's had fabric over stringers at top rear fuselage, while 17's had a wooden composite shell???

Hey,  it's your world. Thanks for sharing with us! ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 22, 2016, 06:16:11 PM
Quote
11's had fabric over stringers at top rear fuselage, while 17's had a wooden composite shell???

Apparently not so - I have failed to find any photographs of 11's showing fabric covered stringers. They all show a smooth top, despite many drawings not reflecting this.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 22, 2016, 06:38:01 PM
Very nice Rich - particularly liked the laminated rear cockpit former.  The stringers are a good idea to support that covering.  I've found that once covered and doped the turtle decks can shrink leading to the starved horse effect, even though it didn't go on like that!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 22, 2016, 06:46:00 PM
Yeah - it's quite a span between the formers so it is no surprise the stringers are needed really, and I like to reflect a scale-ish structure where I can.

I can't do the front decking until I get the struts fitted. Then I'll need to wait until I get my hands on some aluminium tubing to squash into the 'strut' profile. I'll probably use thin ply for the front decking.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 22, 2016, 07:18:11 PM
10 thou styrene sheet's also worth considering for the front - no filling or sanding required, paints up like any effect you want - nice to work with.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 26, 2016, 11:20:57 AM
Rich-
I now believe you are correct about the non-fabric turtle deck. Checked some photos and it sure looks "solid", as opposed to fabric over stringers.
I'm now thinking it's the same system as used on 17 an 28. IIRC, Bergen Hardesty(fairly comprehensive Nieuport 17-23 and 28 scale drawings) called this thin shell  "composition board". And, some years ago, here at our NASM, when restoring their original Nieuport 28, it was discovered to be thin, narrow,  strips of poplar planking. Can't recall if it was multiple layers.

Truly sad part is, as I'm recalling our 83e project, I realize I had my first experience with" 45 deg" mahogany plywood used on the turtledeck! :-[

For me, one of the main draws for modeling the 11, has been to avoid that decking! Just shows how the memory and hence perception, can deceive!!!

Thanks, I think, for the ah-ha moment. ::)

In thinking about tackling that shell, and avoiding  the starved horse look, I was contemplating thin sheet balsa shell formed over  carved block mold. Tissue and dope finish could be applied while over this form, as well, letting the assembly dry/set for many days...THEN attach to fuselage.

Doping and finish in place, I'd suggest pre-shrinking tissue and run its grain " athwartship' to avoid over shrinkage. Heck, I like to run tissue grain the short direction on stringered structures to avoid the "alligator look",



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 26, 2016, 05:19:31 PM
Hi PP. I don't know why they bothered sheeting the rear. Rigidity? Drag reduction? I imagine 'composition board' to be an early name for plywood, so it is interesting about poplar planking. What about the front decking? I've read different reports - aluminium and composition board.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 27, 2016, 10:13:41 AM
Could have been for rigidity. All the Nieuports of that frame style (both single and two-seaters) have those large interior ply gussets at fuselage rear, under stab, but over tail skid. Also, and IIRC, the upright/wire brace fittings of fuselage are only screwed  to inside edges of longerons and seem a bit "unsubtantial", should the frame be subject to torsional loads.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 27, 2016, 10:38:55 AM
I wonder why the people at Vintage Aviator chose to use stringers on their Italian 11
http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/aircraft/nieuport-11-bebe/detail/walkaround?page=0%2C3


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 27, 2016, 11:57:16 AM
Mmm. Maybe not all Nieuport 11's were sheeted. The photos I've seen only represent a relatively small number of aircraft. There are a few things on there that I'm not sure about. In particular the sharp change in angle in longerons at the tail end.

Anyway, I'm not modelling that one!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 27, 2016, 12:08:27 PM
I take it back.Reading the blurb, it appears the VA Nieuport was built in the US in 1962, so perhaps they assumed it was stringered too.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 27, 2016, 05:13:53 PM
Rich, when I made my (greatly inferior) Nieuport XI a few years ago I noted the stringers on the drawings and spent AGES trawling the internet to try and find a contemporary photo also showing stringers. I never did, and came to the same conclusion as you. Mine's just sheeted with thin balsa and tissued over.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Modelace on June 28, 2016, 12:19:02 AM
Quote
11's had fabric over stringers at top rear fuselage, while 17's had a wooden composite shell???

Apparently not so - I have failed to find any photographs of 11's showing fabric covered stringers. They all show a smooth top, despite many drawings not reflecting this.
Here's one at  the Tillamook Museum, with stringers.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 28, 2016, 01:48:20 AM
Hi Modelace. The trouble is that is a replica and, as far as photographs of originals go, is incorrect.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on June 28, 2016, 10:16:10 AM
Here's fuselage of the sole remaining genuine XI.  Rear decking appears to be plywood as Rich has stated.  This Nieuport XI is in a Paris museum.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 28, 2016, 11:04:21 AM
Thank you Mark!!! you always seem to come up with the truly good stuff.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 28, 2016, 02:09:48 PM
He does! I've got a deja vue feeling about that aircraft and indeed this whole conversation. I wonder how much, if any, of that example has been rebuilt during restoration. The ply covering was evidently quite thin and in just the occasional WW1 photo you can almost (but usually not quite) convince yourself you can see the stringers pressing through it a little.

Here are a couple of relevant crash pics I just found online. (I think you need to pay someone if you don't want the writing across the middle.)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 28, 2016, 02:53:25 PM
Hi Pete. We have indeed had this discussion before in a pre-build thread last year, but  I'm not surprised the sheeting has been queried because it is a common omission. Good to unearth more evidence though and I am always open to correction. Too late now because the sheet is glued on. Next debate is going to be the colour of the borders...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 29, 2016, 06:50:57 AM
I say go with "black" as it is very similar to the " natural colour" of carbon fibre! Think of your thin stab outlines!

The above photos seem to indicate that several scale drawings have, at least, gotten the 11's stringer configuration correct. Have also seen enough photos of Nieuport 16's lately, to suspect that its stringers and headrest have more in common with 17???


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 29, 2016, 11:09:28 AM
All it takes is for one person to make a mistake in the dim and distant past and it gets perpetuated for ever. Like the supposed sweepback on the Hannover Cl111. I don´t believe the tapes were black but every replica and model you see has black tapes. Why would they paint them black? A quick look at the many photos from the time show a different colour than black. Way back in this thread I thought I saw a copy of Windsock in which I believe the colour was discussed and decided to be French roundel blue. I have always been sceptical of the Windsock experts who claim to be able to identify colours from black and white photos, but the tones do seem similar to the roundels in some cases. I am away so cannot check.

I assume the model is for competition so, no stringers, ditch any photos of poor replicas that conflict, find the tape colour reference and go with that. Crack on for May 2017!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 29, 2016, 11:23:21 AM
Whilst I like the look of the black, I agree that it is a bit harsh and blue might fit better with contemporary photos. So the question becomes - do I quote from the Windsock text (French roundel blue) or refer to photos of the last remaining example (black)?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 29, 2016, 11:30:15 AM
Quote
I say go with "black" as it is very similar to the " natural colour" of carbon fibre! Think of your thin stab outlines!

Except I have already laid my outlines now using laminations of a close grained veneer I happened to have. I think it is maple, which is a bit posh, innit. It certainly isn't basswood. I didn't get any ammonia either, as I had an experiment by soaking the strips in hot water (used a thermos flak) before pulling around a form, which worked a treat. May as well stick with it. When I can afford it, I'll order some carbon fibre and play with it. This will probably result in a spare set of tail surfaces!

This is the biggest tailplane I ever made! Photos shortly, if I'm happy enough with it.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 29, 2016, 11:39:46 AM
I'm telling you, the full scale guys face EXACTLY the same dilemma as modellers, when it comes to choosing colors and historical best guesses. etc.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 29, 2016, 12:25:52 PM
Rich
Well what does the subject photo you have chosen look like? Choose the best match and go with whatever photos back it up. You may as well please yourself -  the marks for colour are so low, you can ignore them.
The one thing that surprises me in this discussion is the picture Mark posted of the Bebe in Paris, with black-painted taping. The French know what they are doing with restoration (as in Guynemer´s SPAD) so if black is wrong, I wonder why they did it. Surely they would not have followed some dodgy painting from 19whenever?!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 29, 2016, 01:04:10 PM
I didn't get any ammonia either, as I had an experiment by soaking the strips in hot water (used a thermos flak) before pulling around a form, which worked a treat. May as well stick with it. When I can afford it, I'll order some carbon fibre and play with it. This will probably result in a spare set of tail surfaces!
Rich
I think water and ammonia do different things. Hot water makes the wood bendable; ammonia softens the fibres temporarily so it retains its shape and doesn´t spring back


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 29, 2016, 01:52:41 PM
We really need to review the Model builder article that seems to have started the "ammonia wood bending craze".  According to that source, household ammonia simply does not possess enough oomph to cause wood cells to loosen, and then reset, upon drying. I have the article in question and will dig it out, if there is interest. Some pretty amazing wood bending is possible but it is a bit more involved, and the ammonia strengths required call for a bit more care in handling.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on June 29, 2016, 01:59:47 PM
Hi PP
Yes, I use it full-strength. It pongs, and it works!
I can explain the term ´pong´if needed.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on June 29, 2016, 07:47:33 PM
The famous French artist Henri Farrè, commissioned to document the French air service in paintings, did several pictures of Nieuports with black outlines including this one of a N.XI or XVI of the Lafayette Escadrille diving for a strafing run (see wings and horizontal tail).  These pictures were painted during the war, not long after from memory.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 30, 2016, 02:23:45 AM
Thanks Mark. That sort of information kind of clinches it for me. I will have a good hard look at some photos as well. I have a little while yet before having to make the final decision...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on June 30, 2016, 06:56:45 PM
Why is it that all the modelling processes that work best will either stink the house out, risk burning it down or dissolve your lungs...?

All good fun,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 01, 2016, 02:34:25 AM
Yup, the appliance of science... it stinks. But it's worth it.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 01, 2016, 11:21:41 AM
billdennis747 stated: "All it takes is for one person to make a mistake in the dim and distant past and it gets perpetuated for ever."

So true!  The odd aileron on Fokker Dr1, comes to mind. How about the bulged nature of fuselage side stringers indicated in EVERY Sopwith Snipe drawing? I did a review of  the Datafile #46 here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2549214#post33280515   
and initial question here:  http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2541854


Do  Nieuports 23/24/27  suffer same treatment?? Just recently discovered Hawker Hurricane drawings seem to likewise show this phenomenon. Is it mass hysteria among draftsmen? or history by mass assumption???


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 01, 2016, 03:06:58 PM
Tailplane. The outline is 5 laminations of hardwood veneer strips cut to 3mm widths which were wrapped around a balsa form. I wrapped sticky tape around the form to prevent unwanted stickage. The rest is 3mm sq. balsa. I just need to buy a copy of War and Peace to keep it flat or alternatively, I could use my pile of maths books that I have just finished with...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 03, 2016, 06:31:25 AM
While I wait for glue to dry, I thought I'd share a few pics of a couple of not yet quite finished things...

I've laminated the rudder with 5 lams of hardwood, as with the tailplane. The laminations were wrapped around a form of balsa, cut to inner profile of outline and held to it with pins and balsa chunks as required and left to dry overnight. Then the balsa form was popped out and replaced with balsa sticks.

In between glue drying sessions I have cut the parts for the tailskid - a sandwich of thin ply and balsa, plus two cheeks/fairings of balsa sanded to shape. I have rubbed a smidgen of brown acrylic paint into the skid to highlight the grain and grubbify things a bit before staining with furniture wax. The side cheeks got a 'wax only' treatment to give a subtle contrast to the main bit. I will chop out the part of the tailskid that is covered by the balsa cheeks to save a bit of unnecessary weight. The springy wire bit is currently a length of piano wire that I have flattened by giving it a jolly good beating with a hammer on my 'anvil' (metal block). It looks good, but isn't quite wide enough (I'm sure this would be wider than 12mm in full size, to prevent sinking into the mud), so I will hunt down something more suitable later. I am guessing this would have been at least 30mm wide in full size. I will lash this to the skid neatly with thread and then chuck the whole thing in my 'Ni11 small parts' box until needed.

(Alternative spring attachment photo added)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 03, 2016, 02:39:54 PM
Tailskid. I decided to lash the metal strip to the woodwork with thread. Effective and strong as well as lightweight. Metal strip used to be a nail. I hammered it flat and bent to shape. It has been varnished to retard rust.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 05, 2016, 01:55:42 AM
Rudder. This finishes the tailset off nicely and provides an essence of Nieuport, and I am beginning to get a sense of how big this model is now. With the wheels, aluminium cowling and rotary gubbins on the front, I am feeling confident I will get it to balance without much additional ballast. In fact, I may have to be a little bit careful with the weight of the front end stuff.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 05, 2016, 02:12:41 AM
Rich, have you got the Datafile in the Nieuport 17? It shows the tailskid fairing is 1/3 as wide as it is long.
Bill


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 05, 2016, 02:38:26 AM
Hi Bill - does it look a bit thin? It isn't far from that w:l ratio and it fills the width of the fuselage, so couldn't be any wider. It looks about right to me except the leading edge of it should be a tad blunter. Pete's second photo above is a useful reference.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 05, 2016, 03:37:35 AM
Rich, I think your photo was a bit deceptive and it did look a bit thin  - if it fills the fuselage width then it must be right. For years I assumed it was thin and flat.
The drawings of the Ni17 were done from a captured machine by the Germans, and are incredibly detailed and accurate, and show the rear end of the fairing has a radius of 15mm! Assuming the 11 used the same fairing, narrowing the rear end will make it look fatter
Bill


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 05, 2016, 11:02:01 AM
The Paris N.XI skid looks to have a modification, possibly post-war.  Anyway, the fairing looks original save for the hole for the bungee.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 05, 2016, 12:48:26 PM
Thanks Mark. I could defend my tailskid to some degree in terms of rough dimensions from Bill's observations, but from that photo, I think I'm going to have to redo the fairings on my tailskid now... If I could afford a trip to Paris...but I can't...

I based my tailskid on an average of various different drawings and what I could see in the collection of photos I have, which is quite good now, (and now one better). I was happy with it, in that it looked fairly believable and 'in keeping', but now I can re-evaluate it and make it better. Ho hum...

Thanks for the constructive criticism Bill and Mark. All useful and most welcome.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 05, 2016, 01:57:19 PM
Got to say I love all the exchange about Nieuport details!! Honest attempts at "getting it correct" is inspiring. Plus one gets a real appreciation for the machines and the men that flew them. Thank You!

" incredibly detailed and accurate" German Nieuport 17 drawings appear here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2021740


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 05, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
Thanks PP. I am happy to be told I am wrong, as long as it is backed up in some useful way. It can only lead to improvement, or at least an interesting discussion. This tailskid is an obvious example. I made it wrong and I would rather it be less wrong, which, until someone tells me otherwise, I think it is.

 I have seen parts of those drawings but it is good to have them all in one place. Thanks for the link.

Bill was right. I need to get the fattest bit fatter and further forward to get the blunt end more blunt. I cut off the cheeks and replaced with rafters, or rather, crude formers and covered with 'plywood', ie 1/32" balsa. This is more like Mark's close up photo. A bit of furniture polish and hey presto. I think that looks better. Needs more coats of stain and a buff to finish.

Addded: I've still messed up with the angle on the fairing, which should be more rounded. I may be able to soften this a bit. Generally overall, I think it captures the essence of the original reasonably well and will look OK on the model. One small mistake may draw the judges eye away from another bigger one...ahem


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ChrisH on July 05, 2016, 05:21:40 PM
Hopefully my photo is attached!

Apologies for the amateur slide copy via slide/loupe/Canon Ixus, but I assume this photo taken in 1977 is the Le Borget Nieuport before a more recent rebuild.    Sadly it is the only photo of the '11' that I have.   I appear to have been more interested in the Nieuport monoplane and Deperdussin racer!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 05, 2016, 05:51:58 PM
Cheers ChrisH!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on July 05, 2016, 06:47:59 PM
The Nowlen peanut kit has been sat on my shelves for ages, so I'm really enjoying this one!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 06, 2016, 02:26:45 AM
Couldn't sleep without tweaking the fairing shape. Tailskid is now looking like this. Looking field worn already. Just needs brackets and an aeroplane and I'll be happy


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 06, 2016, 03:24:13 AM
Looks good to me Dan


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 06, 2016, 10:54:50 AM
Great photo in reply #206.

Note visible  sag in LE of StBd wing.  Is that a structural flaw of the design? Possibly a wood selection issue? Or just a warp over time? In flight, would aerodynamics tend to deform it  the other way? Has anyone ever seen a period inflight Nieu. 11 photo?

I'm starting to notice these kinds of things more. Never paid much attention til I got to looking at period Dr1 and Albatros DIII photos!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 07, 2016, 02:13:26 PM
I have been looking at the wings for this model. Interestingly, the number of ribs drawn, on all the drawings I have refererred to, show 12 ribs, including the root rib for each half wing. The Paris example clearly only has 11. I have looked closely at lots of photos, and think that 12 ribs seems more normal, although the 3rd photo seems to have 11. I reckon the prototype only had 11.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 08, 2016, 09:58:17 AM
Rich,
Are there differences between Nieuport and Macchi built examples perhaps?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 08, 2016, 03:41:53 PM
Maybe. I am in favour of using the clearest photos I have, which means 11 ribs, as demonstrated by the Paris example.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 08, 2016, 08:34:12 PM
Rich, I think you've dug up yet another Nieuport XI controversy with the wingrib question. Have you seen the discussion and graphic here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/landoni/2395335970 ? I wonder where that uncovered wing pic came from originally.

Also, the Nieuport XI drawings in this Cross & Cockade published book, 'Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF Service' (which I've got) all show 11 ribs. So does this photo I think, but it's surprising how few really clear rib-counting photos there are generally.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 09, 2016, 12:31:01 PM
Images from Macchi factory drawings, from the archives at Aeromacchi  
Ref: WW1 Aero No. 130, page 82, Nov, 1990

Sets of copies of the Macchi drawings for the Nieuports 10, 11 and 17 were/are? available from WW1 Aeroplanes, Inc.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 09, 2016, 08:00:10 PM
Excellent material Mark and Pete! you guys come thru again. It seems the Macchi drawings show the Muse d'lair example's rib spacing to be correct. I did notice the cowl in the drawing is slightly different than what is shown in photos. Especially at sides, lower fuselage, at firewall.
This is quite common occurance in full size factory drawings. Several instances where the parts drawings don't match the parts as built, such as P-51D, Luscombe Model 8's etc. Great if one can examine an original part, but photos are often the only reference to a certain production standard.

BTW- If I had a guzillion $, I'd have a complete full library of WWI Aero and its companion mag (covers interwar years- name eludes me at moment- must be "old timers disease"), plus a life time membership just to keep everything  current!!!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 10, 2016, 06:09:24 AM
Looks like 11 is the magic number. Thanks guys - that ends the debate for me. I have been messing around with my wing design and now I can be confident it is going to be right. It is a thin wing, but at this size I can try for a scale rib profile. Hopefully, I'll cobble some wing together soon.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 10, 2016, 07:30:17 AM
What structure are you planning , Rich?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 10, 2016, 11:44:26 AM
Hi Bill. I want to keep it as close to the real thing as possible, so two spars as deep as I can. Capping strips top and bottom to give an appropriate rib width and to tie the structure together. In order to keep the leading edge visibly 'thin' I am going to try a T shaped l/e, to give me some width centrally within the rib. I am currently building a mock up section, to get a feel for it. Hopefully might have a photo later. Might have get me some spruce for the spars but so far it is looking OK.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 10, 2016, 12:08:29 PM
Are you using carbon? I just weighed some:
1 metre of 1mm rod (LE).  is 1.6g
1 metre of TE section 1.6mm wide is 1.1g


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 10, 2016, 02:02:41 PM
 This build gets more interesting!

Full size Nieuport practice on 17 (and assuming 11 is similar) had spars  where the wood blank was split vertically on CL, routed out and a vertical ply web was added and then glued back together. Depending upon the engineer one talks to, the internal web added no real benefit, routing saved no weight,and a solid spruce or linden spar is adequate, and possibly more torsionaly  stable. A solid spar is also MUCH simpler to make and outwardly identical to original.

I'd stay with balsa, even at 1/8 scale, in approx. scale timber sizes at LE, spars, and TE etc. 1/32" for rib webs and balsa caps. I get excited thinking about it!

I used to fly a lot of A-1 gliders. Always swapped out 1/16"x1/4" spruce spar caps for hard balsa. Never had one fail under heavy tow!

You might also think about using grain orientation to  best advantage. If you think about it, a piece of "C" grain 1/4" square is identical to an "A" grain stick rotated 90 deg. and, as a spar, will be strongest, most stable and warp resistant with the C grain on front/rear spar faces. This is just good wood practice (breadbox, furniture, pianos, etc.) and  it is recommended/required for full scale spar application.

Don't get me wrong, the traditional uses of balsa grain selection is more than adequate , but 45 years as a wood worker has influenced me, a little.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 10, 2016, 02:24:02 PM
I am going to allow myself to be dragged into the 21st century and am ordering some 2.5mm carbon rod (Mark's drawing above shows 20mm LE) for the LE and TE. Is carbon any good for spars?

Oh, and another thing. The sweep back on the 3-view I have mostly been using (Ian Stairs) is too much when compared to dimensions given in Macchi drawing above and the Ni17 drawings.




Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 10, 2016, 03:44:34 PM
Rich
I've built a few carbon wings. I would suggest 2.5mm LE is too thick and heavy. I would have used 1mm n a model this size, which will go up to approx 1.5 after covering  and painting.
I certainly wouldn't use 2.5mm rod for TE. I have used Woodhouse's pultruded TE section (1.6mm x 0.6mm to 0.4mm) on big diesel models, with paper-thin carbon caps on the ribs to ock it in place. No warps and plenty strong. I can send a sample if you want a look.
At least you'll have your black outlines!
Beware, carbon can quickly put the weight up.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on July 10, 2016, 03:49:48 PM
Hi Rich. Avetek have gone with 2 centralised carbon tubes for the 28" Strutter wings. They resist any bowing that you get with those thin wings and you can put wire joiners into them if you want removeable wings. We used 2.5mm OD. Strong as.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 10, 2016, 03:55:07 PM
Yep, don't know what I was thinking with rod. Way too thick. Been thinking in plan view too much today...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: PeeTee on July 10, 2016, 04:27:48 PM
Rich

I'm not into scale models, but I am into carbon tubes - as light as possible. If you can't get what you want in a local model shop, I've found the best value is here:  https://www.robotbirds.co.uk/default/building-materials/carbon-rod-tube-strip/carbon-tubes.html?p=2

I'm not on commission - honest  :D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 10, 2016, 04:41:13 PM
I may as well share what I've been playing with today. It could work, but I am leaning towards the carbon tube for all the spanwise parts. I will tissue cover this, just to complete the sample and evaluate it. I like the capped ribs - surprisingly rigid. Using round spars wouldn't be too big a leap from this and minimising the TE and LE is in order.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 10, 2016, 04:42:20 PM
Thanks again for all the invaluable input everyone.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 10, 2016, 05:37:55 PM
I feel one of the reasons typical model structures warp under covering shrinkage is due to fact that most seldom utilize full ht spar material, the way full size practice does. Most modelers put a spar on the bottom of rib/wing section. Top of ribs above the spar is a succession of levers,  each inducing/allowing tissue to shrink within each bay. Cumulative shinkage causes wing to bow upwards. Your neat scale like example is kind of what I was thinking, although i'd go with smaller wood at both LE and TE. I also know there sometimes has to be a reasonable trade-off between building ease and handling strength, in lieu of scale like structure.  I once built Bill Stroman's 22" Taube  design with only a thread for(scalloped) TE and felt it was PLENTY strong for typical model handling.

BTW- just found this  video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DxCKW9HaH8#t=2623.6572721
which shows several shots of Nieuport XI's. Most are "natural" fabric or "yellow" finish, however there are some in camouflage. A flying shot appears @ 43:40, although the narrator seems to be suggesting  it's a Nieuport 17. Too far away to provide much useful data.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 11, 2016, 02:38:45 AM
I enjoy trying to replicate the structure as closely as possible. Surface spars would look awful, so there is no choice but to use as much height as possible. To keep thickness scale only allows 5mm max depth of spar, so these need to be stiff, hence attraction of carbon tube here. The leading and trailing edges are very small sections to do in wood. In my test section above, I tried to add strength centrally in the LE (and on underside of TE) so they are not as chunky as they look. Again, carbon sounds like the way to go here. My only concern is twisting of the wing. It is going to be relying on the covering more than I'd like to resist twisting, hopefully mylar will help here. Another material I have not used yet. Learning curve is going up, up, up...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on July 11, 2016, 05:08:29 AM
hopefully mylar will help here.

Don't be afraid - once mastered you won't want to use anything else.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 11, 2016, 09:41:09 AM
One could use a light filliment strand to simulate the drag/anti-drag bracing of the FS wing, between the spars. Un-waxed dental floss, or silk thread....?  Fly-tying bobbins, hanging over work board end, might provide even tension in each x-ed bay, while glue sets??

In FS practice, there is very little tension on those wires.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 11, 2016, 11:10:15 AM
OMG. It might come to that! I've been considering bracing the fuselage, just because I have seen a few photos where wires have been highlighted by dirt - especially where scuffed by pilot getting in/ out of cockpit. It would help stiffen the wing up, but, as you mention, it would need to be done evenly otherwise it would introduce internal stresses. I'll think about it...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on July 11, 2016, 02:51:11 PM
Rich our experience with the Strutter using carbon tube spars is that the wings turned out to be  very rigid.  In fact if you want to put in some washout it pays to do this at the time of building as there is no give in the carbon and no give in the cyano you will zap the joints with - it's a case of locking in what you build!   Wing construction with carbon tubes is so simple - you look like you have access to a laser cutter so you just draw/cut the spar holes, thread on your ribs and line them up carefully, jig in your washout and blast it with thin cyano.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 11, 2016, 03:51:16 PM
I believe that Nieuports probably don't need much washout, as those ailerons with inverse taper, contribute significantly to desired effect.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 20, 2016, 05:11:32 PM
In a slight deviation I have been messing about with the pilot. I normally cobble something together with balsa and dress it in faux leather and this is usually effective enough, but this model is big enough to require something with more of a face to it. I thought it might be a bit of a laugh to try casting a foam one. So, here are my first ever attempts at a clay head (and shoulders). I plan to use this as a form to make a mould which can then be used to cast a foam one. Being the first attempts, they are a bit sh*t but I am encouraged to keep practicing. It is difficult to get the size right as well as getting everything in the right place. Then the neck is problematic. Good fun though. Probably not making my life easier by using air drying clay, but it's what I've got...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on July 20, 2016, 09:19:15 PM
Kinda looks like one of those stages of man progressions!! ;D  Eventually Homo Pilotus will appear!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 21, 2016, 03:30:32 AM
I knew I'd seen him on the left before!
http://www.ysp.co.uk/whats-on/open-air/elisabeth-frink


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on July 21, 2016, 05:00:23 AM
I thought he seemed familiar too!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 21, 2016, 05:28:28 AM
You're both wrong...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on July 21, 2016, 05:50:13 AM
Mint!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on July 21, 2016, 11:25:42 AM
Hullo Rich, following your build with interest.

Some thoughts on spars: Glider construction has led the way on thin wings and stiff spars. The standard way to do it is now thin carbon caps top and bottom with balsa between forming a wide, light sheer web. For real serious strength this is then wrapped in Kevlar tow and epoxied. This produces an I-beam structure which is very stiff in bending for the weight. Torsional (twist) stiffness is increased by a sheeted d-box forward if the spar.

You wont need anything like the same stiffness but a thin (like 0.0014" or 0.007") sheet from Mike Woodhouse, cut into strips, roughened and thin CA'd top and bottom to a balsa square strip may be worth experimenting with.

Carbon tubes would work but would be heavier. The cheap pultruded stuff sold in model shops is pretty weighty. Thin walled wrapped tubes as sold for FF glider booms are stiffer and much lighter but probably way overkill. By the way Hyperflight do the pultruded carbon at a very good price: http://www.hyperflight.co.uk/products.asp?cat=Carbon+Materials&subcat=Tube different lengths to the Robotbirds but cheaper over all I think.

The advantage of tubes is that they also give good torsional stiffness without a d-box. The larger diameter the better, with thin walls for light weight.

You can also get a box-section 'tube' in carbon which might be worth a look.

But I think the lightest option would be laminating up some carbon capped balsa spars. The pic below shows a 3m hefty version but might help visualize it.


Jon

(http://aviatorstudio.net/bubbledancer/large/center_7.jpg)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 21, 2016, 12:39:51 PM
I agree with Jon about the carbon/balsa spar. The balsa can be light wood. It does need binding (cotton/cyano with a turn every 1/2" worked for me) otherwise the carbon can pop off under stress. I made a pair of wings for a 48" Blackburn Monoplane (notorious for curling up) with these spars and they never moved.
The top wing of a Nieuport tends to stay flat anyway; the lower less so


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 21, 2016, 03:05:25 PM
Stop taking the piss out of my serious modelling attempts! It's not funny and I'm really sensitive.

But, it is and I'm not, so it's OK and actually quite refreshing, so carry on.

Coming back to the wings, thanks Jon for the input. This is interesting and will be filed for future use. I am mentally committed to carbon tube spars for this one now. Despite the apparent lack of progress, I am about to start wing building. I am already hooked on carbon fibre. Seems like wonderful stuff...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on July 21, 2016, 06:55:13 PM
Got so carried away with all that renal humour that I forgot to say what a great idea that is to model your pilot in clay first - so much better detail than you could get with foam or balsa.  My attempts at carving pilots in those media have always looked like something that came out your nose!  On the subject of clay Rich Weber pointed me in the direction of a super light modelling material called Hearty Clay.  I used this to do the cockpit coaming on the Bristol Scout.  There are some pictures of it on the build thread for that model - this would be perfect for the Nieuport


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on July 21, 2016, 07:34:10 PM
As a more sensitive type, I have found that 'Super Sculpey' has given me decent results without too many tears  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 22, 2016, 02:31:04 AM
Rich, I'm glad you have been able to shrug off the pathetic criticisms of your pilot and are going to carry on undismayed, treating them with the contempt they deserve.
I have only ever made one pilot - the Doug McHard one from his SE5a. By the time I had given him a scarf round his mouth, and goggles, he didn't need (or have) a face.  He has been used relentlessly in many models, some way out of his scale.
Anyway, something stirred my memory and I just found my copy of WW1 Aeroplanes  Scale Special   No. 84  April 1981.  Many very useful articles, including the use of FIMO clay (which I see comes in 'lightweight') to make all manner of details, including pilots' heads in extraordinary detail.
There is also a description of how to etch a 'Spandau' barrel on litho plate, using muriatic acid. I have no idea what that is (and shall be googling shortly)  but I bet I won't be able to get it at Boots the Chemist.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: PeeTee on July 22, 2016, 03:02:01 AM
Quote
muriatic acid

Bill, from memory it's a dilute form of one of the 'usual' acids, hydrochloric or suphuric, as I needed to get some to make up a chemical solution for irridising hot glass.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 22, 2016, 03:26:08 AM
Thanks Peter. Where/how did you get it? Or will Coca Cola do the trick?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mefot on July 22, 2016, 04:26:02 AM
It's sold in the UK as brick and mortar cleaner Bill. There is also something called spirit of salts which, I think, is a bit stronger  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: PeeTee on July 22, 2016, 04:41:41 AM
Bill

After posting the last message I looked it up, and as Mefot says, another name is spirits of salt which used to be available at most hardware stores. I bought some years ago to use for de-rusting seams on an MGB. If all else fails, go to France where such products are widely available in the supermarkets (or ask Ivan if he's going this year :D)

Peter

ps waiting for coca cola to do the trick is probably a forlorn hope!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 22, 2016, 05:04:55 AM

ps waiting for coca cola to do the trick is probably a forlorn hope!
Well, if it is capable of bringing down Spitfires, I'm sure it could eat through litho plate!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pinto on July 22, 2016, 07:42:02 AM
If you ever need any dodgy chemicals just look on ebay.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 22, 2016, 10:16:10 AM
Muriatic acid is usually a low grade form of hydrochloric acid sold for various purposes such as a swimming pool additive or for etching cement or concrete to prepare for painting.  I have used it to make model parts from litho-plate by first coating the aluminum (American spelling) with wax and then scribing through the wax to expose the aluminum.  The part is floated on the acid which etches the aluminum.  Have made plate fittings for a 1:12 S.E.5a in this manner for example.    Muriatic acid should be available in any hardware store or where you'd buy pool supplies or paint.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 22, 2016, 01:09:11 PM
Convenient small quantities  of liquid muratic acid  can be found where soldering supplies are sold. It is commonly used as a " flux".

It is quite reasonably priced in 1 gallon plastic bottle, but storage can be problematic and wreak havoc with other stored materials. Ask me how I know.

Perhaps this link is appropo for the pilot bust sculpting?  http://time.com/3773304/scary-lucille-ball-statue/ ::)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: PeeTee on July 22, 2016, 01:32:55 PM
Bill

Homebase sells it here: http://www.homebase.co.uk/en/homebaseuk/challs-international-max-spirits-of-salt---max-strength-275496, so I suspect most DIY sheds will sell it.

Peter


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 22, 2016, 02:46:06 PM
Thanks Peter - I'll get some tomorrow
Rich - back to the thread!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 23, 2016, 04:15:58 AM
As ever, all sorts of useful information is forthcoming. I'd be most interested to see some results of this etching with brick acid. Sounds like another fun technique to try.

Had a chaotic week, but managed to get some laser time yesterday so I hope to get on with something more structural shortly.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 23, 2016, 05:37:54 PM
I'd be most interested to see some results of this etching with brick acid. Sounds like another fun technique to try.

Here's a photo of a couple of the parts made with muriatic acid and .005" aluminum litho-plate.  They are the underside front panel (under the engine)  and one of the two fittings at the bottom side of the radiator for a Wolseley Viper engined S.E.5a in 1:12 scale.  Similar parts made for this unfinished project have been consumed by another project.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 23, 2016, 06:27:35 PM
Thanks Mark. Looks good.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 23, 2016, 06:35:31 PM
Made a jig to cap the ribs. Bolts locate in spar holes and rib is packed up to ensure central position on capping.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 24, 2016, 03:08:07 AM
That looks really clever Rich. How are you going to attach the LE and TE? Normally they are attached first, then the capstrips go top and bottom to lock in place.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 24, 2016, 06:24:22 AM
Hi Bill. It works but it is slow. However, I am not yet fully stocked with what I need to complete the wings, so I have time. When the ribs are all made up I will stack them (bolts through spar holes to hold them together) and profile the ends accordingly.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 27, 2016, 04:34:35 PM
In between rib building, I have been thinking about the wing attachment/ struts. The Bebe is tricky in that it is devoid of cabane bracing. This makes it difficult to make a strong and stiff cabane structure. So I bent some wire for the struts that would allow movement upon impact. I posted pics a few posts ago but I had forgotten to put the aluminium sleeving over them, and then I decided I would re-approach this idea. Instead of a front and back, I am going to bend two sides each with a front and back strut. I remembered the aluminium sleeve but forgot one of the Ali tubes on the first one (duh). These will be threaded and epoxied to fuselage. An alternative would be strong rigid struts but I'm sure these would break all the time. The rear strut wires will slide into rear wing spar. The front of the wing will be held with a wire dowel in the front spar and I may need a rubber band here. The front of the wing will be held down to front struts using small L-shaped wire hooks that will allow wings to separate on impact.
Some info suggests the cabane struts are wooden but the examples on the Bebe in Paris Air museum look like aluminium to me. I will make the brackets from painted paper later in the build.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 29, 2016, 06:56:29 AM
And another thing...Nieuport 11 wing tips are drawn with a taper on all the 3 views I've got. However, on the Macchi construction drawing they are drawn square. A careful study of photographs shows that they tend to appear tapered, but this, I think, is a lot to do with perspective, the shape of the ailerons and the curved upper surface as it comes down to the trailing edge 'corner', as much as imagination/ expectation. Whilst a tapered tip looks nice, it doesn't seem correct, so, unless there were variations, I need to keep imy tips square.

I have attached 4xphotos of the same aeroplane. 2x that look tapered, 2x that look square. 5th is the Macchi drawing for reference.

Might as well throw the 3 views away...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 29, 2016, 11:42:02 AM
Interesting discovery about the tips Rich.  I think the tips ARE parallel to the ribs and that means the vast majority of three-views and model plans are probably wrong.  Here are a couple more views of the Paris N.XI showing tips from different angles.   Note the incorrect painting of the starboard side of the rudder IMO.
 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 29, 2016, 12:09:51 PM
As I understand it, the Paris example is the only original, and I would  only take notice of that, and WW1 photos. There are several on Google that I think clearly show a small taper. You need to find ones that show the end rib. The Paris 11 is hanging up so we need a picture from directly underneath. but this the nearest I found.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/landoni/2380941950/in/photostream/
Seems conclusive to me


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ROGER WILLIS on July 29, 2016, 12:21:26 PM
Rich.... I have arrived very late on your build project, but have attempted to read  everything.  I am in FAC Squadron 20 [ the OASIS FLYERS ] in Murrieta California.  Our FAC event, WW I Combat and our FAC Rubber Scale event, require very light building in order to be competitive in the air. I was wondering how much your build weighs in grams and what the wingspan is..???  Roger


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 29, 2016, 01:15:11 PM
What...??  Square/or parallel to rib  wing tips?    Next thing you know, somebody will probably contend SE5 had pointier wing tips than SE5a! :

Remember: 1/2 truths are still 100% factual! ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 29, 2016, 01:48:29 PM
Whoops, I meant to repeat this image of the macchi drawings. Plus another view of the Paris Ni11 looking very parallel/ square to end rib.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 29, 2016, 02:12:47 PM
Quote
I was wondering how much your build weighs in grams and what the wingspan is..Huh  Roger

Hi Roger, Wingspan is 942mm (37"). I haven't bothered weighing anything yet, but this will probably best be measured in kilo's by the time it is finished. It wouldn't compete well in your FAC Rubber Scale events as, duration-wise, my target is only 30 seconds. Any more than that probably means I've forgotten something or not used enough paint.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Prosper on July 30, 2016, 01:09:51 PM
Fab thread Rich. Love the rib-capping jig, but the Schrödinger-style discovery that wingtips can be swept and parallel at the same time is amazing.

Quote from: Rich Moore
Might as well throw the 3 views away...
The first essential step in scale modelling.

Stephen.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 30, 2016, 04:16:29 PM
With absolute confidence I'm coming down squarely on the side of Possible  parallel, highly probable wing tip theory.  My hunch is the Macchi drawing is not incorrect!!! ::)
 
Went back thru photos on this thread and am starting to question the authenticity of photo showing underside of flying aircraft. See post #5.  

In a similar revelation,( important only to guys like us?) I was surprised to find Sopwith Pup fin is not straight on it's bottom member, but has a slight "s" curve, according to original Pup parts/assembly drawings (available this forum- see Builder's Plan Gallery).

I suspect we are seeing incorrect Nieuport 11 tips in scale drawings because of mass hysterical historical perception, once again. It's pandemic in written history too!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: old fitts on July 30, 2016, 06:29:35 PM
Does this mean that the cat's in/out of the bag? 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 30, 2016, 07:00:07 PM
I'm still not quite convinced either way on the tip sweep question. Found a couple of quite interesting Nieuport factory pics whilst looking though. You might well have found these already but I'm just adding the link before I forget where they were: http://www.historim.fr/2015/11/les-etablissements-nieuport-issy.html


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 30, 2016, 07:16:42 PM
Also, these German marked photos seem to back up the parallel tip theory, assuming the white square's edge ran along the rib line.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 31, 2016, 02:01:52 AM
Rich, you are in the same situation as I was with a Hannover ClIII. Everyone knew the wings were swept back a degree or two - after all, all the drawings since 1918 showed it. But once I dug deeper, no. I spent years trying to sort it out but eventually you have to make a decision. In this case, you can find evidence either way, and i wouldn't be surprised if there was variation. The best approach would be to queue up at Dover for a day, go to Paris, stand underneath the thing and take a photo. Otherwise you need to decide which to go with and choose your photos accordingly, including your subject.
If you go with the straight tips, you will need to alter the three view and get it authorised by the STC. Given that most judges would expect some taper, they might take some convincing! As you are going to compete with this, I would suggest you assemble the photos you intend to use now, and review. Don't include photos that contradict, eg if you go for taper, don't include the captured one with the German crosses that Pete just posted!

Just going back to the Hannover; in desperation, I threw together an Airfix kit to see how it looked with and without sweepback. In the end, I built it as a ClII, which definitely has straight wings.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mefot on July 31, 2016, 07:36:07 AM
I think the answer to this lies in the shape of the wingtip in side elevation. Because of that shape it will, from some angles, give the illusion of taper. In this image borrowed from the interweb the starboard wingtip appears to be almost parallel, and I'm sure if the aircraft was viewed from directly underneath it would be. However looking at the port wingtip it would appear to be tapered.
My rather uneducated guess is that the tips are parallel but, if they don't have the correct curve in side elevation they won't look right from every other angle  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on July 31, 2016, 11:05:54 AM
After squinting at all the pics, I'm convinced the tip is not tapered relative to the last rib. All you have to do is prove it...!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 31, 2016, 11:39:22 AM
OOOOOH FUDGE!! and good find BTW! :o

Mefot's photo appears to show slightly tapered. I measured on my screen ("assumption" and all that comes with that!) with pencil nicks on paper, at rear spar tip and farthest forward point of Stright tip bow to center of last rib. I'm guessing slightly more than an inch narrower at front. Ditto for lower tip shape.

The internal diagonals (upper) would indicate the tip bow shape is tapered in the build and not a result of later fabric tension. However the ,  the aileron tip looks to be out of line with the rake of the tip bow and is probably as drawn by Macchi, despite the obvious fabric pull. If the photo submitted by Pete in #5 is indeed authentic, then it sure looks like there were at least two shapes produced and we still have Macchi drawing configuration, as a third possibility.

Image in Post #279  is the one I'd go with for a model or a full scale reproduction.

Traditional scale rules here in US allowed ( not familiar with current FAC rules) for contestants to draw one's own scale drawings and submit to a member of AMA scale contest board for approval. The other requirement was that the scale drawing be "published" in say a book, magazine, or commercial source etc. However, there seemed no strict interpretation of what published actually meant. I often wondered if it could mean as little as two copies of my own scale drawing, just given away?? Then, there's the other extreme, that suggests just because a drawing gets published, it is deemed to be "accurate".


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 31, 2016, 11:58:09 AM
If I am going to get the 3-view alteration authorised by the STC, ideally I'd like to take Mrs Moore on a romantic trip to the Musee de l'air in Paris and 1. see for myself and 2. take lots of pictures of my own for evidence. Unfortunately, I'm not going to manage that anytime soon. So, I must either build it with what the judges expect to see, in keeping with existing 3 views, or I use existing photos to get the 3-view altered. Fortunately, there are plenty of photos of the Paris example and that last shot from Mefot illustrates the issue brilliantly. I could probably build my case well enough without traveling to Paris. I should also probably model the Paris machine, which wasn't my original intention, but it would seem sensible just for the existence of colour photographs. I am using them quite extensively.

I don't think that I'm one to build something 'wrong' just to please someone else, so the decision becomes - get authorisation on the alteration or accept a markdown for building the wing tips differently from the 3-view.

Anyhow, thank you all for your invaluable input, once again. I attach a colour profile with 'correct' wing tips, and a normal 'wrong' one for comparison. Could I use that colour one as my 3-view?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 31, 2016, 12:04:48 PM
Hey PP. I don't know. The fact that each wing tip from the same photo looks different, makes it difficult to really know how parallel something is or not. This wing tip issue is hurting my brain a bit. I need to go through my whole collection of photos yet again. Maybe I'll go with just a smidgen of taper. Or not. Maybe exaggerate it. I dont know. I thought this model would be straight forward, with all the available info on it...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 31, 2016, 12:49:57 PM
One more for the mix...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 31, 2016, 12:55:55 PM
Oo, that's a lovely photo! Not got that one. I'd say that is one for the parallel tip argument.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 31, 2016, 01:14:28 PM
I agree. Just to confuse things further though, here's a Euler DII which was a Nieuport copy essentially, but maybe not an exact copy- so possibly best to ignore the previous German Nieuport pics I posted in case they're Eulers too! Sorry.)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mefot on July 31, 2016, 01:16:48 PM
Two more. Note the lens distortion on the bare bones shot. Could be easily mistaken for taper  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 31, 2016, 01:37:34 PM
Thanks Pete. I have been thinking the tip shape insonsistency may be due to the camera lens distorting the image. But it is probably better explained by the fact that the wing tip follows the upper surface. When looked at from below at an angle, which is most often the case, comparing the tip with the base of the end rib will give the illusion of non-parallelness. Your bare bones photo is another great one...where are you finding these?? I am almost completely convinced to go for parallel tips now, but there is always that element of doubt - I wonder how many people will comment on the lack of expected taper?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on July 31, 2016, 02:57:24 PM
but there is always that element of doubt - I wonder how many people will comment on the lack of expected taper?
Halfway down this page is a more-or-less underneath shot of the genuine 11 in Paris, to save queueing in Dover
http://canadainairmodels.blogspot.co.uk/
That, together with Pete's bare bones shot, is pretty conclusive, although I still suspect some variation.
I doubt people will comment but who cares - you please yourself and have the evidence. And judges are instructed to go by the documentation, not their own views or preconceptions


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 31, 2016, 03:49:11 PM
Thanks Bill.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 31, 2016, 03:55:56 PM
That bare bones shot is here: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/escadrille057.htm
Can't quite remember how I got there, but I found that putting a few French words, rather than English, into Google along with Nieuport brought up extra photos. For instance encrase (crashed), escadrille and ailes (wings) all turn up various pics. Then, as I suspect we all do, I filter out the non-WW1 shots by only bringing up the black and white search results. By the way, have you found those few shots of the Paris museum's Nieuport on the floor and then without its wings during restoration work? Somewhere there might be a full on photo of the top wing propped against a wall but I haven't found it yet!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on July 31, 2016, 04:34:04 PM
 ;D This whole photo interpretation episode indicates how often we  let our eyes convince us to accept easy answers. They, in effect lie to us. Things thought/percieved to be rounded, are more often than not,  actually  straight, or series of short straight lines (Spitfires and Bf 109's!) etc.. but it takes a bit of extra interest and a bit of discipline to really see (appreciate) what's being shown.

Hey! I'm as guilty as the next guy, as this interesting thread, is revealing. THANKS ALL. :o


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on July 31, 2016, 04:58:04 PM
Rich, have you found this set (which I've only just come across)? Could be just the ticket if you do decide to do the Paris example. They are here: http://www.museeairespace.fr/actualites/verdun-guerre-aerienne/


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on July 31, 2016, 05:06:48 PM
I'd be wary of the uncovered wing photo at reply #287.  I think there's a good possibility that's a photo of one of the two N.XI replicas built by Walt Addems in California in the early 1960s.   Note the shiny cowling for example.

You can see the Addems Nieuports on Flickr here :  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/sets/72157633102796263/
These replicas have steel tube fuselages built without the trapezoidal cross section shape.  They may have been largely based on the Joe Nieto N.XI drawing done for Model Airplane News.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on July 31, 2016, 06:00:10 PM
Not found those Pete - another great find. Lovely photos with lovely parallel to end rib tips!

Thanks for the word of caution Mark.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 01, 2016, 01:14:07 AM
Mark,

Back when I was a boy of 11 or 12, I got introduced to the Phieffer/Addems Nieuports, rather close up. They were my first look at a real ratory engine.  IIRC, these came a bit before Joes Phieffer's Sopwith Pup, which also had steel tube contruction. It was quite the subject of much tongue wagging as the tubing was "square". Quite inovative for the day, although there is a weight penalty.  Anyway, I asked about the addition of the false ribs at leading edge on the Nieuports. Nobody listens to a kid!

Anyway, if you'll note, the Addem's Nieuort shows the upper wing rigged  farther back than even the Nieto drawings show!The forward cabanes slant back noticeably and the rear vee, less so. Think about what that does to the interplane strut layout, snd possibly lower wing placement or sweep. If it was fairly accurate in Nieto's drawing, it was built certainly less so! I suspect this was an attempt to make those Nieuports less tail heavy. Steel tubing(even round) is generally heavier than a same structure in wood/wire.

Meadow Lark field was over near Livermore, some what North of certain Modesto based Great Lakes and a Knight Twister.  Any luck on GL research?



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 01, 2016, 01:17:51 AM
Pete-

That 3/4 front view of Paris  Nieuport  makes me all week in the knees! ;D THANKS!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on August 01, 2016, 09:31:33 AM
Packard,
Thanks for mentioning the false ribs on the Addems Nieuports, hadn't noticed them for some reason.  That's a good indicator that the uncovered wing photo in reply #287 is NOT an Addems Nieuport.  Good that you pointed that out. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 01, 2016, 10:48:57 AM
Gotta say this thread has me uprooting long held ideas, establishing new ones, and then tossing those away!
 
First of all, I'd like to thank Rich, for posing such interesting questions, AND THE BUILD. The appropriate questions come when one is concerned about getting the model or other representation right.

Mark, Mefot, and Pete have provided additional visual data that is priceless.

Mefot's 2nd photo in #287  have convinced me there is indeed a tapered tip!

If anyone ever  does definitive scale drawings of the  type, the wingtip footnote will be LARGE and scrap views many.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 01, 2016, 11:17:43 AM
Hee hee, For me, it's the other way. Parallel to the end rib for me. I've looked long and hard at that 2nd pic #287 (and other 'taperish' shots) but, although I agree that it looks tapered, perspective and angles are funny things. I think the view has to be completely perpendicular to the wing tip to see the 'parallelness'. I haven't yet seen such a straight on view that says tapered.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 01, 2016, 12:34:57 PM
I've become slightly obsessed with this question. Thanks Rich! (I think)
This drawing shows a slight taper, but not nearly as much as some others. It's from here: http://inter.action.free.fr/faq/faq.html
It's by Ian Stair, yet not the same as his drawing in the Windsock Datafile. On the notes he says this is a Macchi example. The front wing corners are less rounded, which is perhaps what makes the taper look less pronounced. On the datafile drawing he notes that the corner radi were indeed smaller on some N.11s and 16s.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: cvasecuk on August 01, 2016, 01:18:43 PM
Hi Rich
I've just looked at the Harborough publication "Fighter Aircraft Of The 1914-1918 War". The 3-views of Nieuport 10/12 and Nieuport 11/16 both show tapered tips but in my opinion all 10 photos look parallel!!
Ron


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 02, 2016, 10:20:36 AM
OK, so let's ask some other questions: Where did all the extra ribs (Ian stair's drawing)  come from? Photos (at least the ones we've considered here) clearly/consistently  show less. Did Mr. Stair, who has made his considerable reputation on developing scale drawings from photos, NOT look at photos of the Nieu. 11 wings, in this particular case??? Does the number of ribs affect the "look of the tip"? I see Stair's last full  rib considerably farther out than photos suggest.

What does all the tip shape controversy do for given dimensions, such as span???

Please know I'm not attacking Ian Stair (IMHO, one of the greats in SCALE DRAWINGS), I'm simply attempting to discuss  apparent pros/cons of a single example of what is basically a "consumer item".


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 02, 2016, 01:32:40 PM
Must admit I didn't notice the extra rib on each side. It is not the only drawing out there to feature them. Two possible solutions:
1. Maybe some (Macchi?) Nieuports really did have more ribs. This seems unlikely but I haven't found an Italian Bebe photo yet where I can count them with certainty. Must be one out there though.
Or
2. Ian Stair got it wrong. He may have realised this himself as on his drawing in the Windsock Datafile the rib count is reduced and they DO match the Paris Nieuport photos I think (23 top wing ribs inc. the wingtips), although interestingly there are still extra ribs on this Ray Rimmel colour top view in the same publication.

(Sorry Rich, I think I'm just clouding the waters now!)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on August 02, 2016, 01:38:59 PM
All scale drawings - including those of Ian Stair - should be checked carefully.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 02, 2016, 01:54:38 PM
The macchi drawings show the same number of ribs as the Paris example. According to these construction drawings, the last two ribs are spaced slightly further apart than the rest. If Ian Stairs assumed all rib spacing was the same he'd get an extra rib near the wing tip. Perhaps this is what happened?

Don't worry about clouding the issue. Only good stuff has come out of all this discussion.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 02, 2016, 02:04:30 PM
That sounds a likely theory. My own Nieuport 11 has too many ribs then, because I took the spacings from David Deadman's fine Telco plan which was based on the same Ian Stair drawing. Ian Stair's obviously a very fine draughtsman so it is slightly strange that he got something as basic as the number of ribs wrong. I suppose we need to remember that until quite recently people had to do the best they could with the info they had, and couldn't spend a few hours googling around for more pictures. In the absence of clear photos (and on most Bebe photos you can't see the ribs much) they just had to make a best guess.

 (On that subject, I think the illustrators for the Kenneth Munson books did a lot of guessing. Even with the internet it's almost impossible to find any photos to back up the beautiful schemes depicted!)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 02, 2016, 02:20:19 PM
We are spoilt for info these days. He will have had limited resources and possibly a deadline to work to. Plus his drawing looks about right, which is often the decider. I don't imagine for a minute I'll get it all right, but I'm trying. Ultimately, if it looks like a Nieuport 11, I'll be happy. If others agree (especially the judges), then I'll be more so.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 03, 2016, 01:05:35 PM
Covered the 'test section'. Tried to add a little texture with pva stitches and tissue tib tape. Doesn't really show up in photo, but I hope to pick it up with some subtle grime later. I quite like the black trim, even though some argue it was unlikely to have been black. We had a discussion about this earlier in the thread. Photos show it was not applied perfectly neatly, but I may have to be a little neater than this quick, rough attempt.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on August 03, 2016, 01:58:02 PM
I just came across Windsock International  1989  Vol 5 No 3. with a discussion of these borders. They were roughly painted on in the factory and the numerous photos of aircraft in the field, as opposed to restorations hanging up in museums, show that whatever colour they were, it wasn't black. French roundel blue was suggested as most likely


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 03, 2016, 02:59:08 PM
Yep. I put black on because it was handy. It's another one of those decisions. As it is on the Paris example, it looks a bit new. Borders on B&W photos tend to look a bit faded. Could be that they are blue, could be faded black. Models I have seen with blue trim look good but the colour needs to be less solid than this sample. I need to look back through this thread to revisit the discussion we had already. I think I was deciding on blue then...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 03, 2016, 03:10:03 PM
Post #190 makes a useful point. Contemporary art showing black outlines is quite convincing. Also, the black outlines on the Paris example are most likely well researched. I like the black but would like to make them less solid. I'll have a play.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 03, 2016, 04:32:29 PM
Those that had macchi wing tips obviously had blue fuselag stripe, and those with tapered tips had blue, while those with combination tips had some other color, as yet unknown. I am the authority and you can take that to the bank! ::)

In the art world, many artists never use a pure lamp black, straight from a tube, but prefer to mix a gray brown, possibly with blues  to represent extremely dark values. I seem to recall an art instructor once saying "black" does not truly exist.

From your photo above, I think your observations could very well be correct: IE a roundel blue. A light French Kakki could also be plausible.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 03, 2016, 04:37:29 PM
It's one of those things I won't decide on until the moment before I actually paint them. I was really just playing around with my wing sample while I wait for Mike Woodhouse to surface so I can get my trailing edges! I think he might be competing somewhere or on holiday...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 03, 2016, 05:57:46 PM
You might have seen the discussion on this issue here: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34542
Not sure it adds much; lots of talk of blue though and someone does say (final comment on p4) that the Paris example's outlines are brown rather than black. That comment was made in 2008 though and I don't know how recently it was last repainted. They certainly look black now.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 04, 2016, 04:03:53 AM
Thanks Pete. It sounds like I can paint the borders black, blue or brown and no one can prove me wrong.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 07, 2016, 03:24:17 PM
Grabbing little bits of time here and there, I have added a bit of detail in case anyone looks in the cockpit. Not completely accurate but a believable authenticity is aimed for here as the pilot will be in the way. Hopefully these bits won't get knocked off. I still need an altimeter and perhaps a compass. These can be attached to the curved cross bar.

Pilot fits. I think I'll give him hands clinging onto the top part of the joystick. He ought to have straps, but his coat gets in the way.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: John Webster on August 10, 2016, 01:26:32 AM
Shoulder harness didn't become common until the late 1930s.

Thank you for putting a lot of effort into researching this airplane.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 14, 2016, 05:13:56 PM
OH-OH! Just noticed something.

Stair's drawing shows forward cabaine strut attaching directly below, and to, the upper wing spar. However, photo's seem to indicate the struts attach to aft face of the spar.

This moves the wing farther forward than Stair shows it, but it does offer  space for a socket (vertical plug in?) wing mount. Will check the Macchi drawing against Nieuport 17 (Rosendall).


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 14, 2016, 06:59:56 PM
Yep. It is shown clearly in first pic.

I have returned from a wee holiday to find my parcel from Mike Woodhouse on the doormat with some carbon fibre trailing edges and other bits and bobs in it. So, I am getting close to actually building something at last. With the wings being a bit on the big side and my workshop space being a bit on the small side I have moved back into the kitchen, much to the delight of Mrs M. Just to get started, I have made a fixture to laminate the wing tips. These need to follow the upper surface of the wing. I may end up infilling the space between the end rib and the tips but I've been sitting on the beach daydreaming about seeing the structure floating overhead and my dreams didn't have any 'solid' bits in the wings. Let's see if I can get away with it.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 16, 2016, 06:32:22 AM
Whilst (parallel!) wingtip no.1 is drying on it's fixture I have prepared the starboard ribs and slid them in their approximate positions on the two carbon spars. I have raised the construction off the board and will use the spars almost like a build jig because the undercamber on this wing would make it awkward to build flat on the board. The two spars give me a flat plane to work to as good as any.

The cutouts on the ribs don't really gain me anything, but they look nice. I really ought to not bother doing this in future but I can't seem to resist it. I am going with 1mm carbon le and a ridiculously thin carbon te as recommended by Bill Dennis, but this will be used in conjunction with a balsa strip to give me prototypical width and something more to stuck things to. The aileron is going to be built onto this structure and separated later. The te of the aileron projects down as it extends; another reason for raising the build off the deck.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 16, 2016, 04:34:59 PM
Cor, I've never put this much work into a wing before. Slow progress but I have managed to find a decent block of time today, so I have managed to glue more than one bit of wood together. Waiting now for the laminated cutaway trim to dry. I normally build with pva but I have used thin cyano to penetrate the rib/ spar joints. Most of this wing assembly is cyano'ed. Tip is ready to go on...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pat D on August 16, 2016, 04:48:43 PM
Lovely work Rich !

Really enjoying this build

Pat


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 17, 2016, 06:07:40 AM
Cheers Pat.

Stuck the wing tip on. I am quite pleased with it. 14 grams ( seems a bit heavy, but that'll be the carbon spars) and still a wee bit to add, but it is a large area of wing and it is nice and stiff. I have slid it onto the fuselage to have a sneaky peak at the overall size and look of this model and I liked what I saw...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on August 23, 2016, 08:35:42 AM
Maybe a dumb question...but I was wondering if carbon fibre came any colors other than black? I have quite a bit stashed, collected over the years. It's different cloths matts and strands etc, but can't bring myself to commit to it's greater use because of the lack of color! A tan or brown would be much preferred.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on August 23, 2016, 04:18:00 PM
Not a dumb question but I don't know the answer. Not a problem with painted models but I guess you're worried about it showing through a tissue finish?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on August 23, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
You can paint the carbon itself, either before or after use.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on October 07, 2016, 03:55:05 PM
Done something at last. Made a wheel. 6x balsa rings (4x2.5mm and 2x1mm) were laminated alternately x-grained to make tyres. 2x 2.5mm balsa discs x-grained for hub, then thin balsa spokes added. I like making the tyres separately. I'll cover spokes with tissue. I'll put in an aluminium bushing later.

I first built wheels like this for my Dr.1. I intended to use rubber tubing for the tyres, and had found some flex which was the correct diameter. I stripped the insulation off and made an OK tyre, but it was too heavy, so I tried balsa. Perfectly adequate and allows paint to be applied. WW1 tyres were apparently pale grey, rather than black, so black rubber would not be authentic anyway.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on October 07, 2016, 04:19:01 PM
Nice wheels Rich  :)

I prefer a darkish grey just respect this fact ... not sure I like the light grey look.
Probably another reason why I like to model replicas or later incarnations of the aircraft?! (and the documentation is easier)
I don't suppose many of these tyres have survived to tell the tale of their greyness?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on October 07, 2016, 04:44:13 PM
I don't like the idea of 'pale grey' either. In the photos I'm using, they look reasonably dark, so I'll go with a 'medium grey'. Definitely not black though...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Prosper on October 07, 2016, 06:31:01 PM
I think the German air force used natural latex, i.e. creamy off-white, whereas the RFC/RNAS used the same but added carbon (soot) to reduce UV damage. I don't know what Nieuport or France did - perhaps latex naturel avec un peu de soot with a drizzling of talc streaked with mud de la Flandre? Parfait!

Stephen.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on October 07, 2016, 07:23:28 PM
Quote
I prefer a darkish grey just respect this fact

I prefer a darkish grey just to respect this fact! (that WWI tyres were pale grey) .... when will I read through my posts properly before posting?!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on October 08, 2016, 03:10:40 AM
I read it as you intended Russ - my brain must have inserted the missing 'to' automatically.

And yep, I'm gonna make 'em muddy as well. I don't intend this to be a clean model!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on October 08, 2016, 03:37:52 AM
Rich, I've no idea how you can sand tyres like that, so accurately.
Yes, I think it was German tyres that were pale.
I use neoprene foam rod for tyres. This 2 1/2" wheel weighs 10g, of which 6g is tyre. I guess that's a fair bit heavier than yours. The spokes are cotton under tissue. I like rubber because my models seek out concrete to land on, but the best thing is that the wheels took an hour to make!
Bill


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on October 08, 2016, 06:17:22 AM
Quote
I've no idea how you can sand tyres like that, so accurately

As long as you can cut balsa rings accurately, sanding them is far less of a challenge than you might think. I sanded mine by hand with a piece of 180 grit.

Not much in it weight wise - my wheels are 8g each, now I've painted the tyres. They'll probably end up 10g by the time i've finished with them! Not planning to ROG or land on anything other than lovely springy grass, so hopefully not being rubber won't be a problem. Dr1 wheels have survived some rough treatment.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on October 08, 2016, 05:11:58 PM
I use neoprene foam rod for tyres.

Bill,
How do you join the ends of the neoprene without the seam being obvious? I've got some of the stuff that is sold for making seals but so far can't manage to hide the join (Sorry to butt in on your thread Rich).
Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on October 08, 2016, 05:28:24 PM
Dave,
I just cut the ends perfectly square and put just enough thin cyano on so it doesn't squeeze out. If it does, wipe it off quickly. With care, you can hardly see a join, certainly after it has been dirtied up and 'Palmer Cord Aero Tyre' written over.. To be honest, I don't worry too much about imperfections - I'm lucky like that.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on October 08, 2016, 06:20:10 PM
Dave,

Did you ever see the method that Pete Iliffe was using at one point?
He prepared his wheels in the same way as Bill and then used a section of the neck of a grey latex balloon stretched over the tyre.
This gave the right look for (I think) one of his Albatros (insert plural!) Can't remember how this panned out over time?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on October 08, 2016, 07:20:30 PM
I can never find any grey balloons!

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on October 09, 2016, 02:52:00 PM
Russ - I've just been talking to Pete on the phone and he has told me in a bit more detail how to do it; sounds easy but like many of Pete's methods it will probably need a lot of skill to make a good job of it (so I'm doomed from the start).

Dan - Pete uses silver balloons for producing grey tyres; apparently, when stretched over black neoprene cord it looks grey. He's used the method on all his German WW1 models and the tyres look superb.

Thanks Bill - I'll have a go using your advice as I think I've probably been using too much CA. I'll also try Pete's method if I can get hold of some black balloons (with hallowe'en not far off I may be lucky) and if I can convert some of my collection of thumbs into fingers, but I have a feeling that the minimal CA tip will be the clincher.

Dave 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on January 02, 2017, 04:21:52 PM
I've finally managed to dust off this build a bit. Over Christmas I have spent quite a lot of time just trying to work out how I was planning to do one thing and another, and work out where I was with this build. I have a couple of tubs of prepared bits and bobs. Some bits I have made, others are designed in my head but I can't find them, so perhaps I haven't actually made them in real life yet!

The main focus has been on the undercarriage and wing attachments. The U/C assembly has been rattling around my head for some time, but I have finally committed to a decision over the last week or so and it is now ready for final setting up. The U/C is folded from springy wire and attached to the fuselage via a torsion bar set-up at the front, allowing it to absorb some of the impact when the Bebe comes in to 'land'/ crash. The rear legs are attached to a rigid point, but can bend. The wire frame is clad in squashed ali tube, which adds weight but looks like aluminium.

The wing attachments are mostly wire in tube, but on the upper wing, the front cabanes are spaced apart from the central wing join. To get around this, and to allow the wings to come off on impact, I have attached wire hooks to the underside of the front spars which hook into the cabane (a brass tube, flattened at one end with a hole in it slides over wire cabane - see photo). I have probably mentioned it in earlier posts somewhere, but the cabanes are all sprung and are all connected together in a kind of springy system. Hopefully this will take the punishment of my trimming process!

As ever my main concern with the U/C and the wing attachment is building in the ability to absorb repeated impact - 'crashability' and I have probably over thunked it. However, I am happy with the springy cabanes and knock-off-ability of the wings. I have attached a few photos - including a couple of premature skeletol assembly shots to motivate myself if nothing else. There is plenty of aluminium to cut off that cowling, but it should help get the model to balance without much, if any ballast. Especially when I stick the engine on...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on January 02, 2017, 05:22:22 PM
That's looking great Rich .... love the ribs and cap strips  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on January 02, 2017, 06:42:27 PM
It's looking superb, Rich. This is going to be quite some model!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on January 03, 2017, 02:47:32 AM
Glad to see this one back. The rubber event at the Nats looks to be very interesting this year!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on January 03, 2017, 09:14:53 AM
Talking of the Nats, am I right to assume that the August scale comps will be incorporated into the Freeflight Nats weekend again (May 27/28)? Or is this still to be decided?

(Just trying to get all these things put on our calendar quck, before Carole signs me up to play for her morris dancing troupe!)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on January 03, 2017, 09:43:24 AM
Pete
We are just discussing it now but the plan is to repeat last year. If you recall, we canvassed opinion and everyone either preferred May or didn´t care. The only change I am considering is to run the two Flying Onlies in the morning so things are less hectic.
I did also canvass opinion on running some FF scale in August, now that it appears that Nats will return, but I got zero response.
When I know, you´ll know, but the intention is May. So get your models (including this one!) ready for May.
Bill


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on January 03, 2017, 10:17:44 AM
Cheers Bill. That's what I thought, and I've now circled that weekend on our calandar along with all other dates for forthcoming scale events I can find. Looks like the Dreaming Spires Gala is back to the first Sunday in July, though no date given on the Oxford website for the Autumn Scalefest as yet. A what's-on UK calendar on here, rather than just individual threads for each event would be quite handy. I might start one if only for my own benefit.

Sorry for the thread hi-jack, Rich.
(Well, not that sorry as these are all events this model of yours could win!)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on January 03, 2017, 10:30:38 AM
Thanks Pete - All questions I was going to have to ask at some point anyway. I'm a bit out of touch at the moment. I need to try and do a little bit often, rather than have big gaps in production. May is not feeling far away...

Next job is to make a template for the turtle-deck. Then it'll be time to think about prepping the frame for covering. Whoop, whoop!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 04, 2017, 03:54:36 PM
Cut a card template which I managed to fit in one piece by careful bending. Couldn't quite manage to get 1/32" balsa in, so it had to be installed in two halves. It is nice to fill that big space.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 04, 2017, 04:34:51 PM
Looking forward to seeing this Rich ...outdoor Nats in May?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 05, 2017, 03:05:06 PM
Hi Russ, that's the plan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 05, 2017, 03:23:42 PM
Were it my plan .... I would worry. It's your plan though, so I look forward to it!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 12, 2017, 04:22:11 PM
Not much to show, but I didn't like the engine that I pulled out of the bits box and decided to redo it. New crankcase faceplate is shown here. I have decided to definitely do a spinning engine again (just because), so the crankcase will be permanently fixed to the prop shaft. The prop will be able to freewheel though and will be engaged to the prop shaft at the rear of the prop to allow it to be replaced easily with a scale prop for static judging. One thing worries me and that is my (lack of) success at soldering to prop shafts - any tips out there?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on February 12, 2017, 06:04:10 PM
it's hard to beat the age old advice of ensuring the joints are clean, jig well to avoid movement and use enough heat. It's best to err on the side of too much heat than the opposite.
I hope this helps.
John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 12, 2017, 07:11:08 PM
totally agree with John.  I use a good liquid flux - Duzall or similar.  'Tin' the bit with solder and shake off the excess.  If using an electric iron use a big tip that gets really hot or better yet a gas heated one that stores plenty of heat.  Hit the joint with plenty of heat and the heat is right when the joint will melt the solder.  That's why the big tip - so you can hit it hard and fast and get the job done before you start to burn or melt other bits!  Rich, the prop work I did recently on the Avetek Pilatus PC9 and earlier on my 1/12 Bristol Scout would be really relevant to your project.  There is a link to the Bristol from the PC9 thread and heaps of pix of how I did it all.  I've actually just been silver soldering up 8 and 10 SWG undercarriage and cabane structures for the two 1/5 Tiger Moths Gwyn and I are building - very satisfying work

Cheers,Mike


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Prosper on February 13, 2017, 05:02:58 AM
Hullo Rich, yeah, the old advice plus flux, like the Antipodeans say. I always had trouble with electronics soldering and this carried through when I started aeromodelling. I knew and used the advice - cleanliness, heat - I used 'multicore resin solder', freshly abraded metal treated with solvent and acid, brought the solder into contact then applied the iron, kept the tip tinned and free from oxidised gunk - every damn thing, even wore gloves. My results were completely hit-and-miss and definitely not safe for critical jobs like propeller freewheels.

The big revelation came when in a kind of satirical 'hit it with a bigger hammer' type of gesture I applied some flux from a giant tub of plumber's stuff. Instant success :).

My aeromodelling soldering is mostly on piano wire, from 0.8 to 1.2mm diameter. I use a 25 watt iron with a sharp tip. I blamed this pore old iron for many years for my troubles but I'm now surprised by the size of jobs it can manage. Now I usually omit the acid stage (a relief), and can do tricky work that I never thought possible before. Multicore solder is a treacherous swizz I reckon. A tiny smear of flux is the magic ingredient. 

Stephen.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 13, 2017, 05:42:38 AM
Thanks all. I need to practice this. Not being able to completely trust my soldering attempts in the past has prevented me from building neat freewheeling assemblies. Mike - your Scout and PC9 front ends are just what I need!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on February 13, 2017, 06:07:21 AM
Rich,

For soldering piano wire, forget the multicore solder or Fluxite resin flux and go for a liquid flux containing phosophoric acid. Make sure you clean everything beforehand and afterwards as the residue can cause oxidation. I've used this method for donkey's years on everything from model aircraft undercarriages to model locomotive chassis components. The gold standard for load bearing items is silver soldering but that needs a lot more heat and is a bit trickier.

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 16, 2017, 06:14:09 PM
Well, this thing was a project on it's own. Finally got it done - over 650 pieces of card and balsa, with a bit of wire and paper.

Having remade the hub, I decided I didn't like the cylinders I had made last year either (or was it the year before last?) - they were a bit heavy and the fins were a bit too chunky. So, I remade the fins with thinner card (cylinders are alternating discs stuck together). There was some discussion about how to make the copper pipework some time ago. In the end, I made them from laminations of balsa and painted them with acrylic paint. The fiddly-arse bits on the top of each cylinder are a combination of bits of bamboo skewers, balsa, paper and thin copper beading wire (tappet springs). The rod linkages are plastic bristles trimmed from a (new) dustpan brush (ssh, don't tell the wife).

The cylinders were brush-painted with a generic silver acrylic paint taken from a spray can. This and the copper bits are way too bright, but have been toned down and grubbied up effectively enough, by painting over with  a mix of acrylic varnish and graphite (pencil+sandpaper). This thing weighs in at 26 grams.

I have decided that my next outdoor model is not going to have a rotary engine...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 16, 2017, 06:36:28 PM
Wow, that's beautiful Rich  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 16, 2017, 08:34:06 PM
OMG!! Rich I made my 1/12 Le Rhone using the Williams Bros cylinders and had the chutzpah to put in on this forum.  I bow my head in shame and kneel at your feet!  What a stunning achievement.  True modelling mate!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on February 17, 2017, 02:42:48 AM
Fabulous, Rich. Do you use a circle cutter and create a row of collections of discs of slightly-decreasing size? 25g is remarkable.
I wouldn't be concerned too much about brightness. From WW! pictures I don't recall seeing dirty engines. Perhaps cleaning them up was the first task of groundcrew; after all, we all know what happens if you leave castor oil on engines.
Inline engines can pose problems too but they don't have fins, and don't move about!
Can't wait to see it.
Bill


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ffscale on February 17, 2017, 04:24:38 AM
Fantastic work Rich - it's a real masterpiece. 

Like Bill I'd be interested to hear how you built up the cylinders - if the discs for the fins and cylinders are all slightly different diameters I would think careful labeling is a must to avoid total confusion!

Mike S.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 17, 2017, 04:51:59 AM
The top 11 fins are all the same size. Only the lower 8 are diminishing and I had to strictly cut and fit one disc at a time to avoid mixing them up because the size difference from one to another is so small. All the spacers are the same diameter throughout, but double thickness (literally two sheets card glued together). I cheated a bit and got the discs cut on a laser cutter at school but left 2 small tabs on each circle to keep them in place on the sheet - I'm glad I didn't have to cut them all out by hand as it was pain enough to just cut the tabs off. I overestimated the thickness of the card and had to use a circle cutter to make an extra 60 circles - one cylinder's worth. The problem with using card is that it doesn't sand cleanly and it dulls the blade quickly.

Whilst I enjoyed building this, it had its tedious moments - 9 of everything gets tiresome. I am happy about how the copper inlet tubes came out. My first one looked silly because I hadn't added the flared bit. This was simply solved by adding an extra piece of balsa either side of the base and reshaping. A small drum sanding attachment in the mini drill made shaping these a doddle, although one or two look a little fatter than the others. Because the grain goes 'the wrong way', I snapped a couple during sanding, but a drop of superglue and who would know? I used acrylic varnish as a sanding sealer to hide the balsary-ness. If you look carefully, I haven't been completely thorough and there are a few tell tale signs of grain and laminating here and there. I wasn't really sure about how well this was going to look until I started adding the copper tubes and the final details. The linkages finish it nicely for me. As did the graphite in the varnish. Not so much to dull the silver paint, but to 'metalise' it.

Overall a satisfying but time consuming diversion from the main model. At 1/8th scale this is a necessary detail and has certainly refreshed my enthusiasm for getting this model built...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ffscale on February 17, 2017, 06:23:32 AM
Thanks for the explanation Rich - very helpful.

I'm thinking of fabricating some cylinders myself for a future project using a similar technique, but I was planning to used plastic card instead of normal card, on the basis it sands well and can be neatly cleaned up.  Using an Olfa compass cutter you should only need to score the circle, then snap the disc out from the backing and clean it up.  I've bought a couple of packs of assorted thicknesses to play with.

Mike S.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 17, 2017, 06:45:33 AM
Hi Mike. Plastic would probably be a lot better than card. I'm a sucker for using what I can get my hands on. I must get a stash of styrene.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Work In Progress on February 17, 2017, 07:35:51 AM
1/64 birch ply also laser-cuts beautifully, and is very robust. Perhaps more for RC model engines than FF ones though.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on February 17, 2017, 08:57:35 AM
Rich, this may have been covered in the DR1 thread but can you remind us how you reconcile the rotating engine with the need for lots of down and sidethrust?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 17, 2017, 09:27:14 AM
Hi Bill,

The Dr1 didn't use any thrust adjustments - it was set dead straight. Luckily, it flew like that (just long enough, by the skin of it's teeth). Not planning on luck with this one. The whole cowling block will be removeable for winding, but the motor shaft assembly will be mounted to a secondary noseblock behind the rotary which will allow for thrust adjustments. The engine is hollow - the thrust race is going to sit about 5mm behind the face of the hub which provides room for a 'box' to mount the adjustable noseblock into.  I may have to offset things to keep things visually centred, but I'll worry about that later. There is a fair amount of room between the engine and the cowling to enable moving things about by the odd degree or two.

Hope that makes sense! Hopefully I'll start messing around with the working parts next week...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on February 17, 2017, 03:59:22 PM
Rich,

Just want to add my appreciation of a truly outstanding job. Can you knock up a quick 1/18 scale one for me?

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on February 17, 2017, 04:20:12 PM
Me too- it's just beautiful. I'm shortly going to bodge together a few half-baked cylinders for my Caudron's dummy engine. I shall now have to leave a respectful gap before posting any pictures though.
(I'm going to nick that sanded graphite idea though.)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 17, 2017, 05:08:45 PM
Thanks all.

Spurred on by completing the Le Rhone, I have dug out the aluminium cowling I hammered out in May 2015 (!). I chickened out of the final shaping at the time, as I was worried I would ruin it. This would be easily done, either by cutting off too much or making it asymmetrical. Anyway, this evening I took the plunge and cut off 15 grams.

I cut to the correct depth first, then trimmed off to get the aperture shape right. I mostly worked to maintain the side profile using a cereal card guide as shown below. The front view mostly took care of itself. When I was close, I put the cowling back on its form and used folded paper to trace half the aperture. By unfolding I could ensure the other side matched. Overall I think this'll do. It doesn't scream 'wrong' at me and looks even better with the Le Rhone in it. A bit of final polishing every now and again will finish it off nicely.

I've swept the floor, so if anyone gets aluminium shards in their socks tomorrow, it wasn't anything to do with me...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 17, 2017, 06:05:16 PM
Looking good in place Rich  :)
Going back to the rotating element of the motor .... forgive me if I am repeating myself or someone else!
As I remember, Pete Iliffe did a rotating motor in his Seimans Shuckert and did not fix the motor to the shaft directly.
It relied on some kind of friction arrangement to the shaft so that it could stop if snagged ... this could also help when changing the thrustline perhaps?

Also, craft cutters work for cutting the card rings if you do have to cut any more ... we all should have one ... they are really useful things  :)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 18, 2017, 12:12:07 AM
When I have thought about rotating motors I have wondered about putting some unobtrusive vanes in between and behind the cylinders to allow the engine to windmill and give the effect without using power from the rubber...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on February 18, 2017, 02:16:37 AM
When I have thought about rotating motors I have wondered about putting some unobtrusive vanes in between and behind the cylinders to allow the engine to windmill and give the effect without using power from the rubber...
That's how Pete McDermott rotated his engines on his World Champs RC Snipes and Triplane. I don't think it even needed vanes. It just ran on bearings on the engine, turned by the airflow, although there would be more airflow from a Laser engine than a rubber prop


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on February 18, 2017, 04:04:38 AM
Super work Rich.  Until I read your thread properly I thought you had made those pipes from copper tube that had been curved and squished at the ends, so they looked very convincing to me!  The whole thing looks so realistic.

Wonderful.

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 18, 2017, 07:54:19 AM
I was playing with copper. I got some copper brake pipe that was the correct diameter and some spring benders to prevent kinking. It wasn't too difficult to make a convincing part, but it was thick walled which made it way too heavy, even for me. I tried thin walled copper tube but couldn't bend it tightly enough without it kinking. And still too heavy. When I gave in and made a balsa one and painted it, I felt a bit foolish for trying. Got to love balsa wood and a bit of paint.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on February 18, 2017, 02:35:38 PM
Pete Iliffe gets rotary engines to rotate simply by making them a sliding fit on an extended prop shaft and letting friction do the rest. Seems to work a treat.

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 18, 2017, 03:14:29 PM
OK, so either the engine is fixed on the prop shaft (as currently planned), or it is a loose fit. The advantage of the loose fit, I guess, is that more of the initial power will be transferred to the prop for the initial climb out before the engine catches up. I don't think the engine being fixed to the prop shaft on the Dr.1 gives any problems though, so I'm inclined to do the same, although this engine is bigger and heavier.

Having said that, my thinking a while ago was around a loose fit which would give me the option to constrain the engine and fly with no rotation. I hadn't thought about the 'half-way' option of letting it spin under friction. So I think I'll revert to that thinking, which will give me 3 options :-

 1. Engine rotating, fixed to prop shaft (grub screw)
 2. Engine rotating, loosen grub screrw so engine loose on prop shaft, but allow friction of bearing to turn engine
 3. Engine constrained, loose fit on prop shaft but engine prevented from turning. Some kind of restraining pin through engine to cowling/ firewall/ somewhere appropriate

Mmmm...

Anyway, currently adding a few missing bits of carbon to upper wing T/E's, and balsa reinforcement to wing roots - got cyano on all finger tips, so can't feel the typewriter. Nothing exciting.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Prosper on February 18, 2017, 04:46:11 PM
Quote from: Rich Moore
Mmmm...
This reads like an 'O' Level Physics question. The candidate would reject 3) realizing that a rotary engine is not a radial engine and must rotate as a basic condition. S/he would then have to rack its brain to see whether 1) or 2) caused most energy loss.  My instinct says have it fixed to the propshaft, however heavy it is. Bearing friction is lost energy, lost to heat and noise. If the engine is fixed to the propshaft yes the rubber motor's 'torque burst' has to spin the engine up, but once going it's a flywheel, absorbing relatively little energy - and can even deliver that energy back to the propshaft (minus what it's lost in its thrust bearing arrangement, and air drag as it rotates).

Having passed my 'O' level rather a long time ago I'm more than able to take it if my (cough) 'instinct' is utterly wrong - better get a second opinion Rich but that's how I see it.

When I saw your engine photos I thought you'd ditched the rubber power and were going for a working miniature rotary IC engine. Fantastico!

Stephen.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 18, 2017, 05:07:12 PM
Hi Stephen. My instinct says fixed as well, especially as it worked fine last time. But, I may as well have the ability to slacken the grub screw and let it lag along if it doesn't complicate matters, although I'm not sure what it would really achieve. I'm not really interested in it not spinning, as you say, it ain't a radial, but it would be easy to jam it with this arrangement. It does sound like an indecisive, non-committal option. In reality, I don't know what I'll do until I actually do it. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 18, 2017, 05:14:47 PM
How about a 'reverse lawnmower clutch' that engages more as the torque decreases?
Might be overthinking this now!  ::)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 18, 2017, 05:43:25 PM
Aaargh! I'm not going to think about it anymore. I'll just stick the bloody thing on.

Anyway, talking about committing, I've just epoxied in my lower wing dihedral/ sweep-back keepers. These are 1/16" lengths of piano wire, bent to the combined dihedral/ sweep-back angle, that insert in the wing spars. These needed to be epoxied to a tube attachment on the fuselage, but getting the correct dihedral and the correct sweep-back simultaneously has given me a headache. Rotating these metal dowels gives more or less sweep, but obviously the dihedral changes as well and very little change makes a big difference to both. It is difficult to 'eye-in' the sweep-back to be parallel with the upper wing, because the upper wing does not have dihedral (versus the lower wings which do) and the apparent parallel-ness depends on your perspective. Anyway, in the end I just stuck 'em in the best I could, checking using a metal straight edge to project the sweep back and a bit of fine eye-balling. Close enough. That's another job I'd been putting off...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 18, 2017, 07:25:07 PM
Glad to hear that you are sticking to your sticking!
I'm sure you'll make it work.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 23, 2017, 06:40:27 PM
This is the nose-block. It is really a nose-block in a nose-block. The whole cowling assembly will be attached to the fuselage in a conventional manner via a large square plug into a big square hole in the fuselage, aided by 4x 6mm neodyminiuminny magnets. This may be overkill because these magnets are really quite strong, but this nose-block is very heavy and I can always reduce the number.

Attached to the 'firewall' of the main nose-block is a small nose-block assembly which allows for thrust-line adjustments of the motor shaft. The three 2mm threaded screws can be slackened off from the rear and spacers inserted, as they would in a conventional nose-block, to achieve an angled thrust line as required. Over-sized holes in the front face allow lateral adjustment so that I can keep things visibly central despite any necessary thrust adjustments. It works quite well - there is enough clearance between the engine and the cowling to get a good few degrees in any direction. If I need more room, I can reduce the supporting column and move the engine backwards which will allow more angled adjustment.

The engine is hollow which allows the thrust race to be as far forward as possible - I didn't want the propeller to be 'out on a limb' too far from the thrust race. The free-wheel is from Mike's build pages (ZK-AUD) and, being at the back of the prop, will allow the prop to be removeable. This allows different props to be tried and, importantly, a scale one for static judging. A pivoting wire dog attached to the rear of the flyng prop will engage between the two protuberances (nice word) on the brass disc. This is my first real attempt at soldering things to important thrusty bits. It went well first time around, but as so much solder ended up all over the brass disc when it should have been going between the brass tube and the piano wire shaft, I didn't trust it. I dismantled to find it was perfect and had to clean everything up and do it again. Not so tidy second time around, but it seems to be structurally sound as far as I can tell. The picture below with the clean brass parts are before any soldering!

I have given the rotary it's own brass bushing, so it is free to rotate around the main motor shaft. The last photo shows the hole in the extended engine bushing that allows me to clamp it securely to the motor shaft with a 2mm grub screw, or not, as I wish.

I am happy with the soldering, although not entirely trusting that it won't all fail on me and smash everything to pieces, but I'll have to trust it.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on February 23, 2017, 07:00:55 PM
You create solutions .... you are a creator as much as a modeller  :)
Always look forward to what you come up with next.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on February 23, 2017, 07:13:17 PM
Great stuff, Rich! That's proper model engineering like I wish I could do. I really like the way everything- real cowling, thrust-line adjuster, rotating engine , freewheel, removable prop, the lot- has all been so well integrated, tailor made and thought through.

As a lowly bodger who still just wedges in unsightly plywood shims to adjust thrustlines (and then usually fails to notice when they fall out) I am in awe!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on February 23, 2017, 10:26:47 PM
Very clever Rich and neat. I enjoy seeing innovative solutions that you and Mike(ZK AUD) display on your models. Great stuff.

john


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on February 24, 2017, 02:40:53 AM
Some very nice model engineering there Rich... ;D

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 24, 2017, 03:05:32 AM
Quote
You create solutions .... you are a creator as much as a modeller

Thanks Russ, I really appreciate that comment. Of course, I'm really good at creating the problems to start with...

Quote
As a lowly bodger

Bodging is engineering in my book. I very much believe in bodging. And the number of times I have said to myself "That's proper model engineering like I wish I could do"...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on February 24, 2017, 10:04:10 AM
Impressing the ladies too no doubt!   Looks good from here Rich.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on February 24, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
Beeeeeyootifulllll...........

Fantastic model engineering Rich.

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 28, 2017, 01:33:29 PM
Doesn't look like much but these struts have taken me a while to put together. 1/32" one piece ply core clad in balsa parts and then stained and varnished. Strong but with a bit of flexibilty. One of the few things remaining to be done before I can start covering is installing the slots in the wings to take the ends of the struts/ provide something to stick the covering to. The ply cores extend and clip to the spars. These will quickly wear out, so a friction fit into a slot that will release on impact seems a sensible way to go. There are 3 tapes to be wrapped around the struts yet, which will help hold them together.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on February 28, 2017, 03:06:28 PM
Anything that involves sweepback, differential dihedral and funny struts gives me a headache!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on February 28, 2017, 03:21:51 PM
I made them by building mock-ups first. To make my life easier, I made a mock strut out of two separate pieces of balsa - one from the lower spar to upper rear spar and one from lower spar to upper front spar. I positioned them side by side and when happy, added a drop of cyano. This fixed them into the 'squashed V' and became a template for a second mock strut, and also the two final ones.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on February 28, 2017, 04:59:24 PM
Anything that involves sweepback, differential dihedral and funny struts gives me a headache!

You will have problems with a Tiger Moth then!  It gave me a real headache!  :D ;D

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Ausmodeller on February 28, 2017, 06:45:38 PM
Anything that involves sweepback, differential dihedral and funny struts gives me a headache!

You will have problems with a Tiger Moth then!  It gave me a real headache!  :D ;D

Andrew

Probably why he builds so many Puss Moths......


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pat D on March 01, 2017, 04:36:02 AM
Hi Rich

What do you use to stain the struts ? it comes out very nice !

Pat




Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 01, 2017, 12:55:55 PM
Hi Pat - it is furniture wax! An old tin of Colron furniture wax 'for pale wood' that I've had for years. It'll probably last me forever as I only use it for things like this. I find it makes balsa look more grown up! These struts have also had a coat of clear gloss acrylic varnish.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pat D on March 02, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
Thanks Rich

I will try that on my Se5a then, loving the build

Pat


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 02, 2017, 02:32:06 PM
Another option is Ronseal Antique Pine varnish (not stain) although it works better on spruce. Somewhere on here, ZK-AUD described painting balsa struts


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 03, 2017, 05:05:02 PM
I have added to the main cowling form to bash out the aluminium cheeks. I attached the aluminium using the original mild steel retainer and started tapping the aluminium around the form. Not as much stretching to do as the main cowling, so it was relatively easy. I didn't bother with heat. I still need to rub them down a bit more, and then trim them. Also on the straight edge, I will form a fold for the strip that sits flat against the fuselage sides.

On smaller models, these are usually made solid from soft balsa block. It is pleasing to be modelling the aperture in the lower part of the cheek and I look forward to being able to see daylight when I look through the engine bay...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on March 03, 2017, 05:29:53 PM
You're a man of many skills Rich. Very nice.

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 04, 2017, 03:55:12 PM
Thank you John. I think it is fairer to say I'm a trier. (the wife thinks I'm very trying).

And I'm about to try another new thing - mylar. But, I'm getting mixed ideas about what to use with regards to sticking this mylar stuff - Velcro glue, UHU gluestick, purple gluestick? Having just written this I remembered Ivan's spitfire article in AM - he uses PVA. As I have this already (and I'm a great fan of PVA), I think I have just made my decision...tail plane first...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on March 04, 2017, 04:02:18 PM
Rich,

I concur with the PVA; I haven't used Mylar on many models but on those I have done, PVA has worked well. One word of caution - I found it best to thin the PVA just a little bit so that I could get an even coating on the frame and avoid any thicker bits as they can show up after the Mylar is applied.

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 04, 2017, 04:16:21 PM
Rich, Ivan uses a PVA from Jewson which has good grip.
Good luck with it. I have seen extraordinary results (Ivan, Ralph Sparrow) and ghastly ones (guess who)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on March 04, 2017, 04:42:21 PM
I'm sure it will be great. Ralph's results with Mylar, even on small models, are beautiful. I do suspect he uses some kind of sorcery though, and though he keeps trying to make everyone else use it too personally I just need one or two normal  people (rather than just him and Ivan- another wizard) to recommend it before I take the plunge.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 04, 2017, 05:25:22 PM
Thanks Dave, and Bill - it sounds like Ivan is using proper builder's PVA - guess what I use (being en ex-builder/ carpenter?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on March 05, 2017, 10:31:27 AM
Just seen the views re mylar covering.  If you haven't used it before I would suggest that you first practice on some old airframe bits with the tissue removed.  Wings are the most difficult.  Undercambered undersides need a couple of coats of contact adhesive to ensure that the mylar sticks well when tightening.  I have used Balsaloc once (seemed to be ultra-expensive pva) but went back to contact glue thinned with toluene.  Hope it turns out well.  Looks lovely.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 05, 2017, 03:20:58 PM
Mmm, the wings are undercamber-tastic, and I need to have a reliable method here so a contact adhesive may be wise for the wings. Is toluene easy to get ones hands on?

I am going to start with the stabiliser and use pva, as this is flat and it won't have too much work to do. Having got everything out ready, I've decided to add a bit of wood around the control horns and to where the linkages pass through the tailplane so the mylar has something to stick to. Easier said than done because I want the cables and slot to line up properly, which means temporarily assembling the tailplane and marking where the cables will go into the fuselage. There's quite a lot of faffing about going on here.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on March 05, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Is toluene easy to get ones hands on?

Check out fleabay.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 05, 2017, 03:36:45 PM
Thanks Ralph - very lazy of me. Anyway, toluene ordered.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Work In Progress on March 06, 2017, 05:44:10 AM
I'm sure you know this, but be careful with it and ventilate your working area very well, it's not the nicest stuff.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 06, 2017, 07:47:46 AM
Thanks WIP - that's why I'm gonna use pva where possible. I get myself in enough trouble working in the house as it is... I can move back in the garage when it is warmer/ my projects get smaller!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 06, 2017, 05:10:10 PM
Fiddly stuff this mylar! I got the tailplane, less elevators, covered on both sides. Took me ages - the biggest problem for me seemed to be trimming the stuff. I'm using a brand new razor blade but it's hard to see and hard to get hold of to allow tension whilst trimming, and it's electrically charged, so it clings to my hands. The family iron, set to one click past one dot, seemed to attach the mylar to the structure OK. Hopefully I'll get better with practice. Anyway, I think it has come out OK, but I haven't shrunk it yet. I have done as Ivan suggests in his recent AM article and pricked the bays to enable it to breath, and chucked it in a cupboard to ferment for a couple of days before I attempt to apply shrinking heat.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on March 08, 2017, 06:07:07 PM
Rich perhaps handling the mylar would be easier if you have the oversized sheet in a frame or even just dowels along the 2 long edges. I have read of the indoor fellows using a similar system when using their ultra light films.

You could then support the dowels and then just place the stab on the mylar?

Could you crumple the mylar beforehand to eliminate the static charge?

Well just a couple of thought that perhaps Ivan or someone else could clarify.

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 08, 2017, 07:23:30 PM
Hi John. These things might help, thanks for the suggestions. No doubt I'll try these things as I process subsequent parts. Funnily enough, I have just finished another session and things are improving for me. The tail-plane, elevators and rudder have all been covered now and it went on more easily and quickly. Tonight, I whacked the iron up to the full 3 dots and then some, which seems to cause shrinkage aplenty without any signs of melting or smoke.

As can be seen by the photos, I failed to make a very smooth job of attaching the mylar, but it shrank to a nice smooth finish with just a few tiny little wrinkles which don't want to come out. I don't think I need perfection, as I will be covering it all again in tissue. Despite a stiff, laminated outline, the leading edge of the tailplane has pulled in - something I'll have to rectify, but it'll be OK. Ivan's article is for a painted mylar finish, so I am thinking that sticking it to all points of contact with the air-frame is a bit over the top (although it may aid repairs) if I'm going over the whole lot with tissue. With this in mind I'll try glue-ing it to the outlines only from now on. The parts tried being twisted and warped, but I reheated them until they decided to be flat, then I clamped them in between some planks of walnut that'll keep 'em flat until I need them again.

The advance in technique is probably down to me just getting on with it and stopping the faffing about, which I'm prone to do when I don't know what I'm doing.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 09, 2017, 03:38:33 AM
Looks really good Rich. What glue did you use in the end? I remember PeeTee recommending the cheapest contact adhesive as found in pound shops because it still had all the nasty chemicals you need  :o

And what thickness mylar did you go for?

Jon


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on March 09, 2017, 05:16:22 AM
Looking good. To overcome the static problem, particularly on larger items, I lay the mylar pieces on some newspaper.  If it still wants to self-crumple hold it by the outside edges and give it a few shakes. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 09, 2017, 05:51:52 AM
Hello Jon and Ralph. I think it's 5 microns. I got it from Mike's Freeflight Supplies. Biggest problem with static is it clinging to my fingers - perhaps I need to earth myself. Newspaper sounds like a simple solution to try. I used thick pva for these tail parts and it has stuck well. However, my consignment of contact glue and toluene has now arrived so I'll try doing it with the nasty stuff soon.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on March 09, 2017, 11:51:27 AM
However, my consignment of contact glue and toluene has now arrived so I'll try doing it with the nasty stuff soon.

The contact cement/toluene can be thinned to the same consistency as water.  I guess that it is lighter than PVA. Mylar adhered with contact cement can be easily removed using toluene - not so sure about PVA.  If the mylar "lifts" somewhere it can be re-attached using a hot iron to reactivate the cement.  It isn't all that nasty - just open the window - but better not use it in the house.  I have been using it for 25-30 years and have survived.  I haven't seen Ivan's article so don't know if he mentions it, but when covering wings use the mylar lengthwise from the roll spanwise on the wing.  You get less droop between the ribs that way. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 09, 2017, 04:15:21 PM
Just dug out an old PM from Peter and he thins contact adhesive with cellulose thinners (which I have here already.) Any thoughts on that Ralph? Or is Toluene different/better? (Sorry for the hijack Rich :))


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on March 10, 2017, 04:38:01 AM
Just dug out an old PM from Peter and he thins contact adhesive with cellulose thinners (which I have here already.) Any thoughts on that Ralph? Or is Toluene different/better? (Sorry for the hijack Rich :))

I have tried it but prefer toluene.  I seem to remember that toluene "flashes" off more quickly. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 10, 2017, 05:03:19 AM
Ok thanks  :) I'll give it a go...

Jon


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 12, 2017, 06:50:01 PM
Wings next for covering, but I keep finding reasons to put it off. I've just spent a bit of time adding some slots for the struts to engage with. Upper wing now has a 10mm balsa strip on wing underside from le to aileron break and is laminated to hold the undercamber. The lower wing gets away with a 6mm wide strip (to the upper surface of the wing - obvs), as it edges onto a rib. I still need to add some sheet reinforcement to the lower wing root bay to prevent damage here. Then I just need to do it. I'll use the contact adhesive for the wings. This model will look odd covered in clear film.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 13, 2017, 05:29:10 PM
One of my wheels just fell down the back of the fridge. Not the easiest of places to get to and it's a bit grubby back there, but with a bit of poking around with a length of carbon fibre tubing, I got it out - phew!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 14, 2017, 01:39:17 PM
In the past, I've made the flying prop to the scale diameter. On this one, I'm thinking to increase the prop to 15", using the attached blank proportions. This blank gives a blade angle of 33.77 degrees at 75% radius from the centre, which, according to a chart I have (Hepcat's, I think) would give it a pitch/ diameter ratio of about 1.55, which is coarser than I normally make them. Does this sound like a good idea - please shout at me if not.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ironmike on March 16, 2017, 11:16:35 AM
Rich
My experience flying the DR-1 is that your
pitch may be a bit much. Prop on my buddies
Dr-1 is around 1:1


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: vintagemike on March 16, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
That prop block looks suspiciously like a certain Mr Hipperson,s Senator prop blank to me, definitely a bit high on pitch for what you want


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 16, 2017, 02:43:28 PM
I agree. I used that block on my Jungmann and it wasn't very good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gGRqfjDPIc
Things improved greatly with a plastic prop of lower pitch


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 16, 2017, 03:40:24 PM
Yep, my gut feeling is that it is too coarse, hence the asking. It is indeed Mr Hipperson's Senator block, and thinking about it, is designed for a different type of performance from the one I'm looking for. With multiple confirmation that it isn't really the tool for the job I'll re-think it and use a block for a finer pitch. I think plastic props typically have p/d's of 1 or even less, but I don't want to use a plastic prop if I can carve a wooden one that works. I haven't carved a prop with this fine a pitch before - maybe that is where I've been going wrong! Thanks for the input everyone.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 17, 2017, 03:19:41 PM
I have been playing around with props and pitch etc and modified the previous blank to provide a pitch/ diameter of 1.1 at 55% radius. The pitch reduces towards the tip and is 0.9 at 75% radius. I have drawn the blank and attached it below. I have compared this to a large plastic prop I bought for my Dr1 (though never tried due to the work required to install it), which has pitch/diameter ratio of approximately 1.0, so they are similar, except the block will produce a prop with wider blades. This feels more 'right', but I hope I'm not over compensating and taking it too far the other way...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Prosper on March 21, 2017, 08:13:41 AM
Hi Rich, fascinating viewing as usual. Such a big prop is way out of my size range, so the bigger Reynold's number will make it behave differently to any prop I've made. My guess is that 0.9 at 75% is erring towards too fine, but it's erring in the failsafe direction. IMO plastic props are made with very fine pitches because to be commercially successful they have to cater for everything, however heavy or draggy.

I would have thought that for any flying model where duration is desirable, what's wanted is a prop that operates at its best lift-to-drag ratio at the very same airspeed at which the whole model has its best L/D, pretty much. That's probably an impossible combination to find unless you have a wind tunnel handy. But trial-and-error can get you in the right neck of the woods. Is there time for you to make a variable-pitch test  prop of some sort, even if it has flat blades with little or no twist?

If I was making a prop - even a giant one like you're making - I would try to get the blades good and thin. P'raps outdoor rubber duration people who are used to big props will tell me that's wrong, but I'd need a bit of convincing.

Stephen.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 21, 2017, 09:09:12 AM
Hi Stephen, thanks for your input. I might just carve a couple - one as shown, one with maybe p/d of 1.0/ 1.1. The set up allows easy swapping of props, and I don't mind building a collection of  them as I don't think this'll be my last big 'un. An adjustable pitch prop would be sensible for experimental purposes, so I'll give that some thought.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on March 21, 2017, 09:54:27 AM
John Barker's (Hepcat) Prop Picker program would give a better than guessing clue to pitch, etc., along the lines of Prosper's list of variables.  I haven't seen John on here for a day or two.  Perhaps Yak52 might comment if he has John's program. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 21, 2017, 02:54:56 PM
I have had a search for John's prop picker, but all the links I found seem to be broken. I know this would be helpful, but I'm not sure I should be let loose with calcliashuns. Stephen (Prosper) has initiated the 'cunning plan' cogs and I have just glued up some laminated prop blades that need a couple of days to dry in their fixture (15 degrees on a fat pipe sort of thing). I'll try and use these for an adjustable pitch prop. In my head I have some 9mm aluminium tube, some hardwood dowel, a hardwood carved hub, plus a few 2mm machine screws...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Prosper on March 21, 2017, 05:00:54 PM
Waiter Go, Rich. The prop/motor combination has such a profound effect on model performance that I'm sure it's worth the experiment if time allows. I have Hepcat's Prop Picker; if you'd like a copy PM me. My only doubt as to its utility in your case is that it requires a L/D (lift-to-drag ratio) value for the model to be entered. I wouldn't even like to guess at an L/D for your model.  You can establish a rough L/D by gliding your model at the speed you think it'll fly at, from a known height, and measure the ground distance it covers before landing. By the time you're ready to do this it may be just as well to get on with flying it, and use your experience and the wingloading to guide you as to whether its performance seems significantly less good than expected. If it is then changing prop pitch and/or motor length/thickness can make a beeg difference - at least that's what I've found over time.

Just my tuppence worth.

Stephen.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on March 21, 2017, 05:10:21 PM
Thanks Stephen. I haven't got time to mess about too much before I must fly it in anger, so I'll settle for flight in the first instance - I need to finish building it before anything else! However, from flight, I can work on better and then, hopefully, best. I've taken the carrot regarding an adjustable prop though, as this may speed that process up.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 21, 2017, 06:16:45 PM
Sorry - late to this party  :)

My experience with Prop Picker has been with commercial props and using it to size motors (for which it is excellent) but as Prosper mentions you need an idea of the models L/D and also some context with John's T/To thrust value output.

If I were you Rich I'd just make the biggest prop that fits at a sensible pitch (not too high on a bipe?) and wind 'er up  ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 25, 2017, 03:08:59 PM
I'm warming up to dusting this thing off...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 06, 2017, 06:00:59 PM
Some progress this evening but...rant alert!!

The wings had a couple of coats of toluene diluted contact adhesive a couple of evenings ago, and tonight I have been using a household iron to attach the mylar. Although I've managed to get reasonable results, I can't say I've taken to it very well. In fact it's been driving me potty. Perhaps I need to give the contact adhesive more time to cure, but the mylar only has to look at the carbon leading/ trailing edges and it sticks fast. I've had to rip off a couple of pieces and start again and the bloody stuff just clings to my hands like it's some kind of joke. I have got very close to losing my rag this evening!

I guess I need practice - I didn't like tissue covering once but now I enjoy it. I can't wait to get the tissue over the top of this mylar stuff!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: vintagemike on May 06, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
Have you tried using a Pritt Stick for attaching mylar? use a fairly new one, they tend to go slimey after a while. You might find its a lot less messy (no smell either) and you get a little bit of "moveabillity"


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 07, 2017, 04:30:50 AM
Quote
Have you tried using a Pritt Stick for attaching mylar?

No. I have tried pva, which worked quite well and if things don't improve I'll probably revert to that. I thought I had better use contact adhesive as it seemed the 'proper' way to stick it, especially on an under-cambered section. Being a plastic, it makes sense that it needs a solvent adhesive so I am surprised pva sticks it so well, and maybe pritt stick would work. I should test a couple of pieces and do a 'pull off' test to see how strong the bond is.

Where I might come 'unstuck' using pva would be on the undercambered ribs. Sometimes diagonal wrinkles occur alongside the ribs, but with the contact adhesive they are easily removed by easing the mylar along the rib a bit by reheating with the iron. That's probably the main advantage for contact glue - manipulation with heat.

It's me - new technology, new tricks, old man. I'll get there.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on May 07, 2017, 04:43:16 AM
Mate there's an explanation of covering in film on Mike Woodhouse's site.  Saw it the other day and noted the strategy for removing static - no doubt useful for when I have a go at covering in mylar one day!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on May 07, 2017, 08:54:50 AM
The wings had a couple of coats of toluene diluted contact adhesive a couple of evenings ago, and tonight I have been using a household iron to attach the mylar.

As a long time user I have only found the need to put more than one coat on heavily under-cambered wing ribs.  One coat is sufficient on all other parts if I have lightly doped and sanded the structure previously.  I have never left the coated surfaces more than about 10-15 minutes.

but the mylar only has to look at the carbon leading/ trailing edges and it sticks fast. 

I would guess that the adhesive needed to be thinner.  I mix it so that it drips off the end of a cocktail stick like a water drop.  The mylar can be repositioned easily with a bit of care.  It should fasten to the LE/TE with slight finger pressure but when reactivated with the iron it will stick.

Practice makes perfect.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: duration on May 07, 2017, 10:36:37 AM
Just stumbled across video on covering an F1B rudder with Mylar, might be of interest. Here is link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3LU789gM3A

Louis


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on May 07, 2017, 03:08:15 PM
Just stumbled across video on covering an F1B rudder with Mylar, might be of interest. Here is link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3LU789gM3A
Louis

Excellent video.  Note the small amount of very thin adhesive that he uses.  Looks like thinned contact adhesive as he parks his brush in thinners, otherwise it would go hard.  The iron that he uses is similar in size to the one that I use.  Very sharp blades to cut the overhanging mylar.  The only thing that I didn't like was the trimming done on his legs.  Well worth looking at.  Thanks Louis.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 07, 2017, 05:03:40 PM
Thank you all. Again.

I have had wing session #2 this evening and things went a lot better. I put this down, mostly, to an attitude transplant - I sat down in a much better mood to start with, cracked off a nice fresh razor blade and put a different cd in the player. Other than that I think my biggest problem was what Ralph says - that the glue mixture wasn't thin enough, and I was too liberal with it. Plus I have made the mistake of starting with a heavily under cambered wing, which probably isn't the easiest shape to try on a first attempt.

Photos show what I've ended up with. Not too bad, but not professional either. 2nd photo shows the worst of the wrinkles which are behind the leading edge on underside in a couple of bays. I can't iron these out and I think I must lift off from the l/e and pull out, or replace the bays in question.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on May 07, 2017, 08:00:30 PM
Reminds me of the guy who fronted up to his psychiatrist just wearing clingfilm - Quack says "I can clearly see you're nuts!"


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on May 08, 2017, 05:00:40 AM
I can't iron these out and I think I must lift off from the l/e and pull out, or replace the bays in question.

Leave it a day then try again.  Turn the heat up a bit - but not too much. Use the side of the iron and stroke the mylar.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 08, 2017, 05:21:31 AM
I sat down in a much better mood to start with, cracked off a nice fresh razor blade and put a different cd in the player. .
I think, for mylar, it has to be Miles Davis, but when it all goes t*ts up, I switch to the Ramones.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: SP250 on May 08, 2017, 06:51:46 AM
Rather an eclectic taste in music there Bill.
Would never have had you down as a Ramones fan.

John M


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: vintagemike on May 08, 2017, 12:23:53 PM
Billy (Sheena) is a punk rocker, billy is a punk rocker nooooow!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 14, 2017, 04:54:09 PM
I am struggling to find time for this at the moment, but I have at least finished the mylar covering. It looks silly, so I am anxious to get on with the tissue. Hopefully this won't take too long and I can get it in a flyable state in time for a bit of trimming. Another very last minute build which may not be quite finished for the outdoor nationals, but I have entered it anyway. Other than the tissue, the biggest job to do is to carve the prop(s).


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on May 15, 2017, 04:07:14 PM
Bill, I saw the Ramones twice in days gone by. If you get really frustrated whilst building, I suggest some proper Nordic Black Metal. You may go out and burn a church down or murder someone, but you will forget your building problems...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 15, 2017, 05:00:37 PM
So tempting to hit Photoshop with a photo of Bill, a mop of black hair and shades!

If I want to get a move on, I get the Ministry on .... it is 'Industrial' metal after all.
Perhaps you have noticed ... it's not helped my 'industry' much  ::)

That explains the Mid Moreton Murders then Dan ......


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 18, 2017, 05:50:49 PM
Tissue is going on OK, just the fuselage to do now. The mylar has come unstuck from a few of the undercambered ribs on both upper wings. I have fixed one wing by reapplying heat. The other wing is less forgiving and I need to prick some holes along the ribs and inject with something sticky (thin cyano?) or live with it.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on May 18, 2017, 07:16:16 PM
I'm interested to see how the mylar/tissue goes for you, Rich. It's something I considered for the 75% Lazy Bee that's ready for covering. I'll probably chicken out and just use the Airspan I bought. This is a very inspiring build!

Dig-a-dig-dang-my-ding-a-long-ling-long! That's a Ministry reference for those who may think I've been on the cider again...

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 18, 2017, 07:40:28 PM
Rich built his Nieuport ... not Jesus.
We had better leave him to it before he tires of our musical references!  ::)


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 19, 2017, 03:05:19 AM
Try it Dan, you'll be fine with it. Covering has never been my strong point, so I'm not surprised it has challenged me. I've got better at it now I've almost finished it.

Being optimistic, I am thinking about paint and need to return to the old border colour debate. Paris museum black borders look nice, and there are a lot of opinions that insist it was not blue. Photo here doesn't look black to me, especially when compared to the numbers. Roundel blue seems more like it. Mmmm...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 20, 2017, 04:38:59 PM
Covering is finished. Phew! Not too bad considering the trouble I gave myself. The tissue has stretched smoothly over the worst of the mylar wrinkles that I couldn't get out, so I am happy. Having got my first tissue/ mylar covering job done I am confident my next attempt will go more smoothly. Bit like pancakes with me - first one is usually a mess.

I still have my work cut out to get this ready for next weekend. If I can get it flying and sprayed with some paint I'll be happy enough. Anything more than that will be a bonus. Pilot and gun are ready to go on. I would like to get the roundels and the border on. I very much doubt any finer details will make the deadline, so linkages and windscreens will have to wait.

I cobbled it together and took some dusky pics. The gnats love it. Football used for scale - this thing is quite big.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mefot on May 20, 2017, 04:56:39 PM
That's looking very nice Rich but I can't help thinking that prop looks very inefficient !!! ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 20, 2017, 05:18:56 PM
It's looking superb- really hope to see it flying next week. That first bare bones photo looks amazingly realistic. With or without all the details it will be a treat!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on May 20, 2017, 07:24:35 PM
Work of art Rich. Very delicate structure.

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on May 21, 2017, 01:09:55 AM
very very nice indeed.  Prop might need a bit more pitch  ;) Really impressive.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 21, 2017, 02:28:36 AM
It looks just right Rich and I can't wait to see it next weekend. I'm wondering what the colour scheme will be but no need to reply; you'll be busy.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on May 21, 2017, 05:10:15 AM
Fabulous, Rich!

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Work In Progress on May 21, 2017, 05:21:28 AM
It's a stunning airframe, a classic example of 'almost too good to cover'. But, as we know, they don't fly too well unless we do...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Andrew Darby on May 21, 2017, 05:37:09 AM
Fantastic Rich!  ;D

Andrew


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: daveh on May 21, 2017, 08:01:12 AM
Lovely work Rich. I just wish I could be there to see it next week but the household management has other ideas.

Dave


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Jack Plane on May 21, 2017, 01:27:43 PM
A stunner...even in its naked state!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 24, 2017, 04:37:41 PM
So, although far from finished, it now has paint and is flyable. Pic 1 and 2.

This evening was perfect trimming weather and the field is full of lush, tall green grass - as long as it'll get as the farmer was working 2 fields away and will be cutting 'my field' tomorrow. A firm push saw the Bébé with air under its wings for the first time and it glided straight and true which was encouraging. 150 turns and it was flying left and level - encouraging. 350 turns, release and 'BANG' and the motor balled up by the motor peg. Pics 3 and 4. Bugger. Motor OK - climbed off the prop hook.

Damage is slight, just covering repair required. Not really a problem. I am using a grey's hook and haven't had this problem before. Any suggestions to prevent it from happening again?



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 24, 2017, 04:43:58 PM
Any suggestions to prevent it from happening again?

A small piece of tight fuel tubing over the end stops it. It seems only to happen when the motor runs right down, rather than having a tension stop


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: USch on May 24, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
Maybe a reverse S-hook on the motor shaft  ???

Urs


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 24, 2017, 05:17:52 PM
Sorry to hear of the slight set-back .... but good to hear that it has took to the air well to start.

At first glance on my phone, that starboard tissue tear looked like one of the stork emblems used on Nieuports!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 24, 2017, 05:51:24 PM
That's bad luck, but probably better that it happened now rather than when fully finished or during a contest. Flights sound promising though!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: ZK-AUD on May 24, 2017, 08:06:15 PM
I'm with Urs on that one - Reverse S hook for sure - game over.  Lucky this happened before you went to town on the markings Rich.

One other thing, I had a related type of issue in the early days of my Bristol Scout when it came in for a hard arrival and the weight of the braided motor took it sideways and split the covering.  I was nervous about having to repeatedly re-do markings etc so when I re-covered the panel I took the opportunity to glue an OHP film baffle on the inside of the framework on both sides just at the point of most likely contact.  No issues since. 


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: danmellor on May 24, 2017, 10:16:38 PM
That's a shame, Rich. Good to hear it was looking promising, though!

Good luck,

Dan.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 25, 2017, 02:29:53 AM
S hooks are great but if they are made as part of the shaft, it can be tricky getting a big, fully-wound motor on. I have found myself in a slippery pickle before.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: F F modeller on May 25, 2017, 04:46:42 AM
Do you use a Crocket (sp?) hook in your setup Bill?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: RalphS on May 25, 2017, 05:20:56 AM
In years of flying "rubber" I have always used Tim Grey hooks or home made aluminium hooks with just a simple bend on the shaft to accept the hook and can't remember one coming off.  I pre-tension (don't like the word "braided") motors and wrap a D/T band two or three turns around the motor just behind the hook when being made up.  John Barker's rubber turns calculator can tell you how many pre-tension turns are needed to maintain tension in the motor as it unwinds.  I have never tried the anti-climb shaft hooks - looks too difficult to make and attach the wound motor - unless you are using a Tim Grey hook - and then you don't really need it.  OK for small indoor motors though.

The model looks lovely and I suspect there is another convert to tissue over mylar.  For smaller models just use mylar.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 25, 2017, 05:48:39 AM
Do you use a Crocket (sp?) hook in your setup Bill?
I use Gray hooks from Flitehook. Cheap (I lose a lot) and a range of sizes. Unfortunately the biggest ones, where I might be using a 14swg shaft, are still 16swg.
As I said, they sometimes fall off with a loose motor (hence the tube trick) but I suspect the shaft hook radius is critical, and the wide open one, as shown on many plans by experts, seems better than a tighter curve.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 25, 2017, 05:57:08 AM
I pre-tension (don't like the word "braided")
Me neither. Puts me in mind of children's holiday hair, but then I don't like 'loops' or 'stabs' either.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: p40qmilj on May 25, 2017, 06:28:01 AM
 ;D  FYI  4 bebes are touring Canada to celebrate the 100th of VIMY RIDGE.  that was the battle where CANADA  came together.  they are in NB this week and moving west ward over the next couple of months.

 for info see http://www.vimyflight.ca/tour-schedule-1.html

jim ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on May 25, 2017, 06:49:59 AM
I visited Vimy Ridge many years ago. Before then I had this idea that trenches were long, straight and half a mile apart.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 25, 2017, 06:04:39 PM
All patched up now (with mylar and tissue) and awaiting a second coat of paint. I have now run out of time - unless I pulled a sicky tomorrow... but I wouldn't do that. I'm travelling up on Friday evening so if I get up nice and early on Saturday morning, maybe I can do some field modelling.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: p40qmilj on May 27, 2017, 03:58:07 PM
 ;D here are photos of my build HA HA

the ceiling was only 400 feet so it didn't fly.

this is a 7/8 full size plane

JIM ;D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Glenn (gravitywell) Reach on May 28, 2017, 09:34:55 PM
I've never understood why someone would build a 3/4 or even worse 7/8th scale plane.  Why not go the extra 1/8th and have a full size?  Is there something that gives them a break on flying a non-full scale ship that I am not aware of?


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: strat-o on May 28, 2017, 11:34:37 PM
I read David Thurston's book "Design for Flying" many years ago.  His approach to designing a plane is to start out with an existing reliable engine.  The engine weight and power will dictate most aspects of the design including sizing. In this case they knew the engine had to be compact like a radial but for some reason they chose not to go with a radial probably due to availability. That further constrained what engines they could use.  

Edit: another interesting fact is the gnome rotary had a particularly outstanding power to weight ratio.  So a Gnome producing 110 h.p. weighed about 240 lbs whereas the later Warner Scarab producing 125 h.p. weighed about 290 pounds.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 29, 2017, 05:00:31 PM
I have just got back from a thoroughly fun weekend at RAF Barkston Heath with the Bébé.

I managed to paint on some roundels in camp on Saturday morning before taking the model over to be statically assessed (an unfinished model is one thing, but to not have any markings at all seemed too much/ little to bear). Lacking in any real detail and finish, I was pleased with the static score as it did quite well. Saturday evenings flying rounds were postponed until Sunday due to the strong wind. Six rounds were flown in flat calm on the Sunday but I wasn't confidant I would get a decent qualifying flight until the second flight flew really nicely, landing just 2 seconds shy of a qualifying time. The model flies satisfyingly slowly - those big, heavily cambered wings are working well. I added an extra loop of rubber and built up the turns cautiously, finally getting a decent qualifying flight in on the fifth. The sixth flight was just short, but ended with a perfect put down onto the tarmac!

It was a big surprise to discover at prize-giving that the Bébé finished the competition in second place overall. There is much to do to get it finished, and a wee bit more power should see the model gain some altitude.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 29, 2017, 05:17:21 PM
Woohoo! Result! Very well deserved- it looked fabulous in flight and that gentle touchdown on the runway where it sat with its 'engine' ticking over was also a joy to watch.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 29, 2017, 05:30:32 PM
Another pic, from my dodgy phone camera...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 29, 2017, 05:47:27 PM
That's the one that crashed! Quite a good, if predictable, 'what happened next' pic! Mel got some flights on video, but unfortunately the quality has come out really poorly for some reason.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Jack Plane on May 29, 2017, 05:52:46 PM
WELL DONE Rich!

She also looks really good!  :D


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 29, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
Thank you. (But it's a he).


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 29, 2017, 05:59:22 PM
Here is a nice pic of the Nieuport XI feeling inadequate alongside the might of Ivan's fantastic Spitfire.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: OZPAF on May 29, 2017, 07:06:34 PM
Congratulations Rich. I bet it didn't take long to forget the last minute rush once you started flying.

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 09, 2017, 04:04:26 PM
Exam done. I will soon be coming in to land from my work/revision/work/revision madness so that I can start adding the finishing details to this. Aiming for Oxford Dreaming Spires 2nd July for the Bébé's next outing.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Hepcat on June 09, 2017, 06:28:45 PM
What a great picture of a Bebe in #490 but how strange to see a YOUNG man holding a model aeroplane.  Was he someones son who had come along to help with retrieving?

John


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 10, 2017, 05:14:51 AM
Young at heart. Immature. And looking goooood!


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: packardpursuit on June 14, 2017, 12:22:43 PM
Keep working on this project. Never finish. ;D This thread should go on and on! If you feel a need, you may start a similar project... :o


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on June 14, 2017, 12:37:49 PM
I am running out of time for Oxford - just how I like it, it seems. Got a few boring life related things to do, then I'll get her out of the box for some enhancement. Don't know what I'll start on first. Maybe the correct roundel colours for the aircraft I am modelling to start. There is loads to do - rigging, strut brackets, control linkages, grubbifying, cockpit coaming, lettering, gun mount (which I'm particularly looking forwards to getting done) and more...


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: tubegeek on October 12, 2017, 06:53:58 PM
I've just finished reading this entire astonishing thread. Very inspiring! The model radial engine is especially convincing, and the heroic effort in hammering the aluminum cowling has given an outstanding result as well.

Rich Moore, best of luck with the final touches. Quite a model.


Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Mark Braunlich on November 15, 2017, 08:40:23 PM
Hi Rich,

Wondering how this project is going.  I recently joined a Nieuport Aircraft group on Facebook and have learned an awful lot about Nieuports in the last couple of weeks.  Lots of learned folks from all over the world.  One thing I learned is that RNAS aircraft in the first half of WW1 were likely as not to have French roundels.   Your Nie.XI,  N394 is likely one of them!   The color artwork you posted earlier, shown again here is wrong....the roundels on the wing are French.  The fuselage roundel is likely a RNAS add-on and is British.  Red usually shows up darker than blue with the film used then (orthochromatic).  Check out the photo attached.....the wing roundel is French.   Big difference in French and British blues too, the rudder should include the French blue.



Title: Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on November 16, 2017, 02:38:00 AM
Hey Mark. I painted the roundel colours in a field at 6.00 in the morning. Not my best time for brain function - I used photos of Paris example for roundel colours, not photos of my modelled prototype. Thanks for pointing out that it is only the fuselage roundel colours that are actually wrong! I now notice the roundel on underside of upper wing as well. This model has been sulking in its box since May as I haven't got time for modelling at present. One day, I'll get it out and finish it - there is a lot of work still to do.