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Outdoor Free Flight Forum => Completed Builds FF-Scale => Topic started by: MKelly on September 10, 2016, 11:13:43 PM



Title: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 10, 2016, 11:13:43 PM
I'm clearing the workbench to build the West Wings 1/24 scale Tempest kit.  Intent is to fly it in FAC WWII combat, at this fall's FAC meet in Gainsville, TX.  This will be the first FAC contest I've participated in.  I've built a couple dozen planes over the last 40+ years (a few of them even flew) but have never competed free flight.  I have no illusions about beating any of the FAC gurus, really just want to make this a solid-flying plane to get into competition, do some learning and have some fun.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions folks have to offer.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on September 10, 2016, 11:46:52 PM
Mike: Build it wit wheels retracted. Gainesvile has high grass but can be a problem if wind direction shifts. Tempest has stubby wings and IMO not the best subject for WWII combat.
From looks of model on kit, it probably needs to have added dihedral.

I will be there  if you need trimming help.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 11, 2016, 02:48:11 PM
ModelAce,

Appreciate the comments!  Will build it with the gear up.  While this may not be the most competitive model for combat, the subject is a favorite of mine and I have the kit on hand.  I also have a Golden Age Reproductions Mustang, but I want to build that in a post-war air racing scheme (Cochran's Thunderbird) rather than WWII colors.

The Tempest plans call for dihedral of 1" at each tip, beginning just inboard of the cannons (center section is flat) - from reading the FAC rules and studying the plan I think I could go up to about 1.75" at each tip without violating the 1"/foot rule or going above the bottom of the canopy.  Do you have a rule-of-thumb you'd recommend for dihedral on low-wing models?

I'm also planning to use 1/8 rather than 1/16 thickness for the stab and rudder, sanded to a symmetrical airfoil section.  I did this on a Guillows Skyraider and found that I had much less trouble with warps over time than similar models with thinner tailplanes.  The model also seemed to trim out easier and seemed more tolerant to gusts.  I'll use very light balsa to keep the tail weight from growing drastically.

BTW, I enjoyed your KI-61 and TU-2 builds - very nice work.  Hope to meet you at Gainsville.

Thanks,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on September 11, 2016, 03:56:52 PM
ModelAce,



The Tempest plans call for dihedral of 1" at each tip, beginning just inboard of the cannons (center section is flat) - from reading the FAC rules and studying the plan I think I could go up to about 1.75" at each tip without violating the 1"/foot rule or going above the bottom of the canopy.  Do you have a rule-of-thumb you'd recommend for dihedral on low-wing models?





Thanks,

Mike
I think that its important to have the wingtips ABOVE the thrust line. I consider the thrust line to be a straight line from the center of the noseblock to the center of the rear peg (rubber anchor).
Raising the wingtips to be just under the edge of the canopy  gets it done. In your case, 1.75" should be adequate.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 12, 2016, 08:09:46 PM
Sounds like good gouge.  In looking at my Skyraider, which is the best flying low-wing free-flight scale model I've built, the wing tips are indeed about 3/8" above the thrustline.  My Typhoon, which was never particularly stable and occasionally fell off into a spiral dive, has the tip just at the thrustline.  Both of these are Guillows 900 series models, so they are about 20% smaller than the West Wings Tempest.

Thanks again,

Mike.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on September 12, 2016, 08:36:58 PM
Mike, I'd definitely build in some tip washout no matter what amount of dihedral you wind up using. Tip washout does not make the model "more stable" as I have heard some claim. It has nothing to do with stability but it DOES prevent the tip from stalling as the wing approaches a stall and keeps the wings level into the full stall. The alternative is a tip stalling, the aircraft rolls over but the wing still has plenty of lift left but it does no good in a vertical bank and slip.

Sometimes a good flying airplane is just a collection of shrewd tricks you build in and that good-looking Tempest will need all of them----dihedral, washout, stab enlargement, proper CG, experimentation with prop size and pitch. The works. Love this build.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 12, 2016, 10:57:29 PM
Tom,

Thanks much!  Good reminder on the washout - many years ago I lost my first low-wing RC powered plane to a tip stall (got too slow and flipped it into the dirt on approach). I'll look through some of the build threads to get ideas on how much washout to build into this wing.

Part of what I've always liked (and hated at times) about free flight is all the experimentation. I have a lot to learn about selecting motor-prop combinations and trimming to get the most out of the model.  I've made some of my models fly - I'm hoping that experience and osmosis via FAC will help me learn to make some of them fly well.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Pat D on September 13, 2016, 09:49:46 AM
Hi Mike

I built one of these a couple of years back and I remember it needing a lot of nose weight once the rubber motor was installed.

My advice would be to keep that tail as light as possible and no harm to prep a motor peg location one bay forward just in case

Best of luck

Pat




Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 13, 2016, 03:05:02 PM
Pat,

Short nose, long tail - not surprising that it needs some nose weight.  The rear peg is already about halfway between the wing TE and the stab, but it won't hurt to make provisions to move it further forward.  Kit wood seems pretty heavy, so I plan to use lighter stock for the tail.

My F4D Jetcat is done and survived maiden (and many more) flights today, so it's time to start cutting parts for the Tempest!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Craig G on September 14, 2016, 01:40:46 PM
A colleague built the West Wings Tempest and converted it to RC, lovely flier. Functional flaps and retracts no less.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 14, 2016, 03:22:37 PM
Craig G,

Wow - your friend builds a beautiful model!  Did he by any chance put up a build thread on one of the modeling forums?  Impressive that he was able to put flaps and retracts on such a small model without turning it into a brick. 

I started buying stick and tissue kits again a few years ago with the intent to convert them to RC, but have since become more interested in making them fly as free flight.  I did convert a Sweet Patootie sport model to RC - very fun flyer, have worn out two brushed motors flying it over the last several years.  Pic below, conversion thread is at http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2138027 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2138027).


Thanks for sharing this.  Your Yak build is coming along nicely.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Craig G on September 14, 2016, 05:14:51 PM
Mike,

He really does, he's quite the modeler. No build thread that I know of, he tends to knock stuff out at home with an occasional in-progress showing, then delivers finished product. I don't want to derail your thread too much but have attached a better picture.

Looking forward to your build.

Craig


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 16, 2016, 11:22:12 PM
Craig G,

Not derailing the thread at all - appreciate the pics.

Not much to show yet - been cutting out parts as I have time.  Some of the wood is pretty stout - not like the old Guillows kits, but not what you'd call light.  Think I will probably replace some of the formers in the aft end of the model...probably will use 1/32 sheet aft of the rear peg.

Horizontal stab measures out to be 12% oversize, but is a little short in chord and doesn't taper on the trailing edge like the real one does.  I'm going to build the stab after the fuselage to see if I can match the planform a little better while still aligning with the fuselage and vertical fin.

The real Tempest's stab has fairly large trim tabs on the elevators.  I was considering making these adjustable for trimming - is this worth the effort?


Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Mooney on September 17, 2016, 10:06:02 AM
My 2c on the trim tabs.  I like to keep stuff simple.  I avoid making flaps, etc and concentrate on true flat tail for example.  When trimming I may add a small tab or gurney flap and once it's right glue it in place for consistent trim.   I used to make built in flaps etc, but found they added weight, knocked out of trim etc.  Also, I noticed the guys at contest didn't usually bother with them and I figured their experience led them to the conclusion.   Another thing I've experienced is that the trim tab is easily fitted and can be small, but a scale flap is usually large and a minis clue adjustment will dramatically impact the trim.Having said all that, I think it's worth doing to learn what you like. 


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 23, 2016, 11:23:06 PM
Progress is happening but slowly.  Had limited building time this week but managed to cut and clean up the formers and longerons.  The kit wood is...stout.  Not oak like some of the older Guillows kits, but pretty heavy.  I've replaced the longerons and formers aft of the wing with lighter wood from the scrap box, looks like I've saved at least five grams out of the aft fuselage so far.

Mooney, good advice on keeping it simple.  I share the concern that moveable surfaces will get knocked around leaving me always chasing the trim, so I'm going to keep the surfaces whole.

Will post a few pics after I've assembled a meaningful chunk of the fuselage.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Hepcat on September 24, 2016, 06:47:26 AM
Mike,
My knowledge of scale models is negligible but in my time I have built a lot of aeroplanes that fly.  The only ones I have ever seen that successfully use solid sheet tail surfaces are hand launch and catapult gliders and there the surfaces are usually small, the wood is very carefully chosen and is rarely more than 1/32nd of an inch thick.  I think you are correct to want a section thicker than 1/16th on the tailplane and with a decently shaped leading edge and that will only be achieved with a built up structure. On no account increase its weight and spoil its aerodynamics by having moveable surfaces.  However this brings me to an essential issue which needs looking at at this early stage in building; how are you going to mount the tailplane and make it possible to easily adjust the incidence for trimming purposes?

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Crabby on September 24, 2016, 10:16:50 AM
Hi Mike. I have built the Guillows series Typhoon and added comical-looking dihedral, but it was a reliable flier. Good looking shape to see in the air! I have been a Tempest lover ever since I read "The Big Show" by Pierre Closterman. Lot of docs available for that plane too. Good idea to leave plenty of gap where you mount the stab. My idea is to glue the the leading edge only so you can add shims when the time comes. Good luck with the camo! that, to me is the fun part of this challenge.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 25, 2016, 05:06:51 PM
Crabby,

Thanks for the words!  I too built the Guillows Typhoon - see pics below for how it looked in 1996 when new and how it looked this spring before I built a new vertical stab, did some re-covering, and tried again to make it fly.  Originally with the black Tern prop I was never able to tame it under power.  This spring after some rebuilding I put a 6" Peck prop on it and was able to come much closer to decent flights, but it was never consistent.  After slipping into a spiral dive and breaking the wing joint for the third time I put it up on the shelf of doom.  I had much better luck with the Skyraider from the same Guillows series.

I picked up the "Airframe and Miniature" books for both the Typhoon and Tempest.  Although they are heavily geared towards plastic modelers and spend a lot of pages on kit reviews, they have solid info on the varieties of each type, great detail pictures and some very nice 1/48 scale foldout drawings.  The tail drawings above are excerpted from the Tempest book.  I also bought a used "Typhoon and Tempest in Action" for some additional info on details and markings.  I'll have to look for "The Big Show".

Anyway, back to gluing formers and sanding notches...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 27, 2016, 01:33:22 PM
Making progress on the fuselage.  It's been a while since I did a half-shell model.  Nothing fancy or original here.  Notch and install the first and last former, pin down the intervening formers (both sides stacked together) then lay down a stringer between them and mark locations for the middle two stringers on each former.  Sand the notches, then separate the formers and glue them in place using cutoffs from scrap 1x2 poplar as alignment blocks to keep things mostly square.  Once the formers were dry I soaked two stringers in water, then glued them into the formers.

I cut a variety of 2" blocks on the miter saw, double-checked that they were the same length and drilled pinholes in one end, then pinned them down over the plan leaving clearance for the formers and stringers.  Pinned the fuselage to the blocks and glued in formers for the other side of the fuselage, again using poplar blocks and checking with a straightedge to keep things square.

Now off to lunch while the glue dries.  I use Tightbond just out of personal preference - I have an easier time controlling how much glue I use, cleanup is easy, the bonds are strong, and it doesn't fracture on impact the way some CA I've used has done.

You can see in the pictures where I replaced the aft formers and frames with lighter (and for the last two formers thinner) wood.  Since I'm building with the gear up I also simplified the frame at the aft end to eliminate the extra keel and half former the plans show for the tailwheel well.  Between the lighter wood and simpler structure I've saved a few grams off the tail.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on September 27, 2016, 08:15:28 PM
MK
Based on my typhoon experience I would do 2 things:
Increase the stab span and follow modelace's advise to
raise the tips to just under the canopy bottom.
Some washout cannot hurt.

See ya in Gainesville


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 28, 2016, 01:01:25 PM
IronMike,

The kit stab is about 12% oversize from scale.  Stab span is just wider than the flat center section of the wing (see pic), about 39% of wingspan.  After seeing your post last night I found Aeromodelista's build thread on your Typhoon - came out very nice.  Looking at the pictures in the thread, I'd probably have to add 3/8 inch on each side to match your design.  That would make stab span about 43% of wingspan - does that sound ballpark?

Got the stringers on the upper half of the fuselage this morning, will cut wing ribs and misc parts while that dries.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on September 28, 2016, 01:55:27 PM
Yea I would do it as I view the prints showing the stab


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: backyardbalsapilot on September 28, 2016, 08:27:04 PM
Lookin' good. I like your jig for holding the fuselage upright. I should try that for my next keel-and-former model.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 28, 2016, 09:10:30 PM
Thanks.  The jig is nothing more than 2" sections of scrap poplar cut on a miter saw (use a stop so they all come out exactly the same length) with holes drilled at an angle on both sides of one end so you can pin them to the building board.  Pin a strip of balsa the same thickness as the keel on the plan centerline, pin the blocks to the board butted up against the strip, slide the lower keel into the slot, then tape the stringer to the blocks.

Tape worked much better than trying to pin the keel to the blocks as shown in post 18.  The poplar is hard enough that the pins didn't penetrate well and kept falling out. 

Monday I was itching to get a magnetic building board, but didn't want to wait for delivery.  This filled the need...and only cost me half an hour's time, with the side benefit of reducing the pile in my scrap wood bin.  My eyeball theodolite says it kept things straight enough...

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: backyardbalsapilot on September 29, 2016, 08:10:05 AM
I built my own magnetic building board. All you need is a sheet of MDF, a piece of sheet steel, and some glue to hold them together. I used Super 77. The MDF seemed flatter than plywood at Home Depot, so I got it instead.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Glenn (gravitywell) Reach on September 29, 2016, 03:21:44 PM
And the metal can be had at most any plumbing shop for quite little or no money.  My piece (12"x24") cost me five bucks. ;D


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on September 30, 2016, 09:47:17 AM
True, sheet metal shouldn't cost a lot.  Where did you guys source your magnets?  Seems to be a pretty good variety on Amazon - what shapes have you found most useful?

Got the printwood stringers installed on the radiator yesterday.  Tedious work but it came out pretty well.  Former F4 (second from the nose) is a bit undersized - looks like I'll need to fill in a bit on the top two stringers to preserve the nose profile.  Other than that, the printwood in this kit has been quite accurate.

IronMike,  thanks for the recommendation on the tail size.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: strat-o on September 30, 2016, 10:39:53 AM
If you are in Houston, you might try Electronic Parts Outlet (EPO).  They keep a nice supply of rare-earth magnets in stock.  If you do use rare-earth magnets, make sure they have a good coating because they will oxidize if not coated well.  I got a set of 20 neodymium magnets at EPO that were really nice because they were encased in plastic and shaped like 3/4" plastic discs.  Also take care when working with neodymium magnets because for all of their tremendous strength, they are very brittle/fragile.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: alset on September 30, 2016, 01:21:10 PM
Cheapest magnets I have found are at

www.amazingmagnets.com

I order by the 100


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: strat-o on September 30, 2016, 03:56:20 PM
Which magnets do prefer?  They have so many varieties it's hard to decide.  Some are very cheap but they are sliver thin (1/32").


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 01, 2016, 10:33:50 PM
Thanks for the link on the magnets.  Seems like it would be good to have a mix of round and rectangular magnets.  I was thinking that countersinking some magnets on my poplar blocks would make it easy to jig up for assembly as I did on this Tempest fuselage.

Made some more progress.  The wing LE is laminated - rather than cutting cardboard templates and pinning around them like I've done on previous models, I used some scrap foam.  Copied the appropriate section of the plan, glued it to the foam with spraymount adhesive, cut along the LE line, then glued and trapped the pre-soaked laminate strips between the two foam pieces.  First one came out fine, second one is drying now.

I finished up most of the stringer work on the fuselage.  I modified the stringer configuration at the nose from what the plan shows to (hopefully) make it easier to capture the transition between the radiator scoop and the fuselage.  The kit has a single stringer curving down from the nose, then running across the wing root and curving down again along the wing fairing line.  At the nose, I ran the stringer up following the top curve of the radiator, then ran another short stringer following the line shown on the plans, joining in a Y at the second former (see pic).  I think this will better guide final sanding and should make it easier to cover (we'll see).

To make the radiator intake cutout, I cut the hole undersize, then chucked a Dremel sanding drum in the drill press and sanded up to the printwood lines.  Came out pretty clean.  I cut a 7/8" hole in the forward former and a 5/8" hole in the second former prior to cutting them from the printwood sheet.  The noseblock will go in the second former, recessed behind the first former to keep the gap between the spinner and the nose reasonable.  I'm thinking about using ModelAce's technique shown in his P-51 and Ki threads to make the noseblock (the kit would have you just insert the thrust button into the fixed nose formers).

As an aside, my daughter has been watching me build and asked if she could build a plane with me.  She picked out a Phantom Jr I recently acquired from an Alamo Escadrille member.  After some discussion on knife safety and techniques, she cut and sanded all the parts for the wing this evening.  Great to be building side-by-side with her!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 02, 2016, 10:29:30 PM
Spent today's build time carving on the nose.  Hacked off as much as I dared with the knife - tomorrow I'll be sanding.  Daughter got half a wing panel built - did pretty good work for her first attempt, only snapped one of the 1/32 ribs while sanding the spar notches.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: backyardbalsapilot on October 03, 2016, 08:20:35 AM
Looks good. I have a mix of ceramic magnets, some from EasyBuilt Models, and some smaller ones from home depot. They work pretty well. For fuselage jigs, I stuffed some 5mm rare earth magnets into the tubes on the underside of lego bricks, sort of like your poplar blocks.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 03, 2016, 09:42:13 AM
Legos - hah! I'll have to try that.  I have a ten-year-old, a 7-year-old and a Lego resale shop just up the road.  There is no shortage of Legos around this house...the trick usually is finding a surface that doesn't have bricks on it. 

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 04, 2016, 10:38:20 AM
Back to the build.  Yesterday I searched the scrap box for the lightest wood I could find, filling in between the stringers at the tail and around the tailwheel fairing, and laying stringers over the stringers at the nose where needed to fix the profile.  I also installed two sets of rear peg mounts, one at the kit location and another one bay forward in case I need to move the rubber forward for balance.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 04, 2016, 10:49:07 AM
Sanding!  A couple of leisurely hours in the garage with a sanding block and some 150 grit paper took the rough edges off the fuselage, followed by 600grit on a styrofoam pad to smooth the surfaces.  I used templates scaled up from the Airframe & Miniature drawings to check things as I went.  Last night I cut the out top two stringers from the cockpit area and installed the sheet fairings that fill around the canopy, then sanded that smooth this morning.  It's starting to look more like an airplane!

Question for the covering gurus - do you think I need to infill the "Y" at the nose scoop to get smooth covering there?  The crease leading to the intake basically splits the "Y".

Leading edge laminations are dry, time to get serious about the wing.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: PaulBrad on October 04, 2016, 12:30:49 PM
Your Tempest is coming along nicely. I would be inclined to fill the "Y" at the nose. I think the covering would have a tough time maintaining the crease when it shrinks.

Paul Bradley


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 04, 2016, 07:38:29 PM
Thanks Paul.  Your Hellcat came out really nice - I need to make room in the building que to try tissue printing on one of your NoCal designs.  I've not yet tried printed tissue.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 07, 2016, 12:07:38 PM
Making progress on the wing.  After cutting out and match-sanding the parts, I cut sliced ribs from soft 3/32 scrap to double the root rib.  Believe this was suggested in one of ModelAce's builds to keep the covering from distorting the root rib.  I stacked the center section ribs and sanded the perpendicular spar notches (not the rear one, which is angled to roughly align with the trailing edge), then pinned the spars down and glued in the ribs and center braces, using poplar blocks to ensure everything is square and straight. 

After some drying time, I dry-fit the trailing edges, sanding in shallow notches to help locate the ribs and provide a little additional gluing surface.  Once these were glued in I blocked up the leading edge 3/32" to match the ribs, cut the center portion from the LE laminations, used the poplar blocks to sand a clean edge at the panel joint, then glued them to the center assembly.

This morning I sanded notches for the rear center upper spar and glued that in, then started work on the outer panels.  Same basic approach as the center, but for these panels I'm going to wait to install the LE and upper spars until after I set some washout into the panels - I intend to add about 1/8" at the trailing edge of the tip rib.

Many thanks to those who've provided detailed build threads here - I'm stealing liberally from your techniques...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 10, 2016, 05:35:10 PM
More work on the wing.  I blocked up the TE 1/8" to set washout, marked the rib positions on the LE, then sanded in the LE taper using a tabletop belt sander.  Once I was happy with the taper I glued in the LE and top spars.  Will notch ribs and install the top rear spar after the glue cures a little.  Nothing is glued at the dihedral break (W4) so the panels can be separated, prepped for dihedral, then glued in. 

I bought the Diels Engineering Typhoon short kit this week and compared it to the Tempest.  Both kits are the same scale (1/24).  Diels recommends 1.5" dihedral at the tips for FAC flying.  I'm planning to raise the Tempest wing 1.5" at the tip rib (1/4" inboard from the tip) - this will keep me legal to FAC rules, with the tips above the thrustline and below the bottom of the canopy.

Speaking of canopies, the kit canopy doesn't look a lot like the real aircraft - the bubble is kinda squished at the top, the molded-in framing dips too low on the sides and the canopy looks to be truncated at the rear (see picture, kit canopy is in foreground).  Since the late-model Typhoon and Tempest used the same bubble canopy, I ordered an extra Typhoon canopy from Diels.  It looks much better - assuming I don't botch up trimming and fitting, the canopy it should look very scale when installed.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 11, 2016, 12:07:47 PM
Mocked up the 1.5" dihedral and trial fit the wing to the fuselage.  I like the way this kit joins the wing and fuse - just a little sanding on the F6 and F8 formers let the wing slip in snug with very positive location.  The sides of the formers align the root ribs, the faces of the formers trap the wing fore-aft, and the stringers meet with the forward two upper spars to set the incidence.  The joint should handle cartwheels much better than the Guillows Typhoon does.

Now out to the garage to shape the LE, TE and dihedral bevel.  I might get this done in time for Gainesville yet.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 11, 2016, 12:51:04 PM
Mike please finish it for Gainesville, and I will volunteer to serve as your mechanic for the Mass launch.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 11, 2016, 09:41:04 PM
Deal!  Thanks - I'm looking forward to the trip.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 11, 2016, 10:37:23 PM
Wing panels are joined!

To sand the bevel at the LE I pinned the panel to the plan with the tip blocked up 1.5" and a 1/8" spacer on top of that at the trailing edge to preserve the washout.  I pinned a block vertical and square to the rib line along the panel joint, then used another block faced with 320 grit paper to sand the bevel (see pics below), using the vertical block to keep the sanding block square and to show when to quit sanding.  I'm happy with the result.

I'll put in the gussets tomorrow before pulling the wing off the board.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on October 12, 2016, 05:14:20 PM
MK
You may hafta fly against my deadly Zero, so take care
what you wish for.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 12, 2016, 09:14:31 PM
IronMike,

Zero...Hmmm...Lightweight fighter with no self-sealing tanks vs. 4x20mm and 24 cylinders of Sabre power.  OK, keep my speed up and don't get suckered into a turning engagement.  Fight's on!

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 13, 2016, 11:22:02 AM
Back to the build...

Pic shows the (further) enlarged stab.  Per IronMike's recommendation I've stretched the stab span from 8-1/8" to 9".  I'll build it this morning after tweaking the stab TE to match the model's fuselage.

Wing is just about done - still need to sand the tips and fashion the cannon ports.

Not many replies lately - I'm an optimist so I'll assume I haven't done anything really dumb yet...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Sky9pilot on October 13, 2016, 12:06:30 PM
Looking good Mike.  She's going to be a beauty!
Tom


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 13, 2016, 12:47:35 PM
The Ironman has NO chance against my EKW. The Tempest??, not enough wing and too much drag. You were warned!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 13, 2016, 03:37:00 PM
EKW?

My wife will be the first to tell you I never have been good at heeding warnings...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 13, 2016, 05:19:42 PM
I think the EKW is a Swedish fighter.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on October 13, 2016, 07:05:58 PM
Very nice looking build Mike. You must have your opponents worried -! :)
John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 13, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
I think the EKW is a Swedish fighter.


The EKW C-36


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on October 13, 2016, 07:55:32 PM
OK, I just need to ask, how does a "fighter" from a neutral country qualify for WWII Combat?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 13, 2016, 09:06:10 PM
Hadn't looked at the EKW before.  Looks like the Swiss used it to defend their airspace during WWII (and long after for other uses).  There were numerous neutrality violations during the WWII air campaign with both victories and losses among the Swiss pilots and aircraft.  As a FAC newbie, I'll leave it to the rules enforcers to weigh in on eligibility.  Looks like it ought to make a pretty flyable model.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 13, 2016, 09:06:23 PM
OK, I just need to ask, how does a "fighter" from a neutral country qualify for WWII Combat?
It is FAC legal. It escorted crippled allied bomber back to base. Look it up!!
It is a fighter. machine gun for rear gunner
Any more questions Copbait73??


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on October 14, 2016, 09:06:00 AM
Not disputing anything here.
Just have never read accounts of actual air combat happening. There were many aircraft in the theatre that never saw any documented combat, the Bewster Burmuda is one that comes to mind.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 14, 2016, 02:38:30 PM
Wingtips are sanded and stab is built.  That stab is HUGE, and heavier than I would like (1.7g !?!).  Thinking about taking another stab (pun intended) at it.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 14, 2016, 05:42:51 PM
Try building another stab with smaller wood sizes. (1/32" ribs, 3/32" sq. l.e., 1/16"X1/8" t.e. , laminated tips). You can cut the weight in half.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 14, 2016, 07:52:13 PM
Yep, that's about what I was thinking.  In work...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 16, 2016, 06:05:25 PM
Laminations!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on October 16, 2016, 06:12:26 PM
should drop the tail weight some MK


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 18, 2016, 11:53:40 AM
Revised tail assembled and sanded.  Saved about half a gram with the laminated stab - I'm sure it could be built lighter but I need to get on with covering if this ship is going to fly in Gainesville.  Total weight for the stab and fin is just over two grams, overall weight is 25-1/4 grams. The target uncovered weight on the plans is 25 grams. There are a few bits left to add (lower stringers on fuselage, braces for the fillets, etc.) so bare airframe weight will go up another gram or two.

Now to fill and prep a few more spots, then on to covering...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 18, 2016, 12:22:47 PM
Sure looking NICE.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on October 18, 2016, 12:45:18 PM
Looking good MK. Cant wait to see it @ Gville
Stab truss may be an overkill


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on October 18, 2016, 04:59:22 PM
Nice!
John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 18, 2016, 09:01:56 PM
Thanks all.

IronMike, the trusses probably aren't necessary, but I fought warps on the stab in my last project and thought the diagonal braces might reduce the chances of warps on this one.  We'll see if they are worth the extra weight...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 19, 2016, 03:00:44 AM
Mike: If you use Esaki tissue, pre-shrink it twice with water before applying it to the tail surfaces. Minimizes warps.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: dorme on October 19, 2016, 07:28:03 AM
Here's the way to prevent warps.  Attach a piece of Esaki to a cut out in foam board ( I use 7.5 x 10.5 for a cutout).  Use tape  all the way around the perimeter.  Shrink twice.  Glue stick the stab/ele and place on the tissue still in the frame.  Cut out and trim/attach edges.  Repeat for other side and for the rudder.  Even if it gets wet or you use dope/Krylon, it will stay flat.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 19, 2016, 10:37:55 AM
Dorme, ModelAce,

Thanks.  I have frames, and use them for the tails, but still sometimes get warps.  For my peanut Citabria, I spliced the tissue, shrunk it in a frame and attached the stab to the tissue on the frame, but still have had problems with the right side warping up.  This was with the ancient Sterling kit tissue.

The Tempest will be the first time I've tried Esaki tissue (all my previous builds have used Peck domestic or kit tissue).  I'm re-reading ModelAce's Mustang and KI-61 threads for tips.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 20, 2016, 12:45:14 PM
Question for the esaki-savants:  Do you typically pre-shrink the tissue for the wings, and if so do you shrink it on a frame or loose?

Thanks,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: billdennis747 on October 20, 2016, 12:54:22 PM
I've never pre-shrunk. Cover it, steam it. If it warps, steam again and hold flat. Non-shrinking dope, same procedure.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on October 20, 2016, 01:43:22 PM
Right on Bill. Same with my stabs.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 20, 2016, 03:47:44 PM
I pre-shrink EVERY piece of Esaki tissue (twice for tail surfaces). No frame, just lay it on a piece of newspaper and spray it with 70% alcohol. I re-wet it during application to the model.
I depart from age old advice and apply it with grain CHORDWISE on wings,stabs and rudders. VERTICAL on fuselages. Shiny side out.
There are several modelers on Hip Pocket who have followed this advice with excellent results. A study of how Esaki shrinks (the greatest shrinkage is perpendicular to the grain) is the reason for this tissue application technique.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on October 20, 2016, 04:25:27 PM
You got it Bobby.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 20, 2016, 04:45:30 PM
Thanks all.  I've covered one side of the fin and stab with esaki chordwise pre-shrunk (2x) on a frame - this is working well so far.  I'm about to do the other side.  Will go after the wing this evening after cutting the gun ports and giving it one more finish sanding session.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 21, 2016, 12:11:04 PM
I can see why esaki tissue is preferred!  Fin and stab came out pretty well off the frames, but had some small wrinkles near the curved tips.  A light mist of water on both sides and a little time to dry (supported by blocks to keep things straight) and they look better than any I've done before using kit/domestic tissue.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 21, 2016, 03:04:52 PM
Gunports, cut with sharpened brass tubing.  Cut only goes through the first layer of the leading edge lamination.  Later model Tempests used shorter 20mm cannon completely buried in the wing, so you don't have to worry about breaking off the cannon fairings like you do with a Typhoon.  Final sanding took more time than I thought, but the wing is now ready to cover.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Pat D on October 21, 2016, 04:25:23 PM
Great craftsmanship Mike

Enjoying watching this come together so nicely

Pat


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 22, 2016, 08:38:46 PM
Thanks Pat!

Wing is covered.  Not the best covering job - I pre-shrunk the tissue without putting it into a frame, which caused it to take a "pebbly" texture.  This texture didn't all come out when I shrunk the wing covering.  It's not bad enough to rip it off and start over, but it doesn't look nearly as good as the tail.  Next time I'll either skip pre-shrinking or will pre-shrink on a frame.  The good news is the wing is straight and the washout held.

I also infilled the radiator-fuselage seam and framed out the exhaust port opening on the fuselage.  Just a few more bits of detail work to go before covering it.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on October 22, 2016, 10:50:08 PM
For the wing (if you have not doped it yet), I'd suggest going through a couple of soakings and fast dryings to see if you can get the surface smooth. Sometimes it works and it can't get worse. You might try force drying with a hair dryer an underside wingtip section as a last resort too as an experiment. I have sometimes had success with that......and sometimes not.

I am never hesitant to recover. If you have used glue stick or dilute white glue to attach the tissue, it is an easy job to drown the wing in the bathtub for 24 hours and the tissue practically floats off for a recovering. Water soaking does NOT warp the wing by the way. It makes it soggy and flexible but it will dry in the position you built it in.

Beautiful job on the chin air intake and the nose area too----really nice wood work.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: strat-o on October 22, 2016, 11:22:22 PM
Before soaking the wing in water make sure the glue you used is water-proof.  I think aliphatic (yellow glue) is but I'm not certain.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on October 23, 2016, 03:03:10 AM
Actually mike the wing looks pretty good to my eyes. Very nice fuse too.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Mooney on October 23, 2016, 06:49:51 PM
Me too.  Go easy on yourself, Mike.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 24, 2016, 03:42:13 PM
Thanks all - the camera hides the little stuff the eyes see.

Tom, thanks for the tips.  I did two cycles of douse-and-dry, which took the worst of the texture out and got me to the point where I decided not to re-cover the wing.  I spot-wet the remaining wrinkle areas, which made them a little better yet, and went ahead and doped the wing.  Not perfect, but it will do.  Saturday's pics are of the doped wing.

I took yesterday off to go to the USGP in Austin, then got back at it this morning.  After mocking up the underwing structure, I began covering the fuselage at the scoop.  Three pieces (side-bottom-side) applied wet with the grain vertical  came out pretty well.

There's going to be some long nights this week to have it ready by Friday, but I'm up for it!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 24, 2016, 04:24:49 PM
Sure is looking GREAT.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 24, 2016, 09:27:48 PM
Thanks Allen!

Had a productive day - fuselage is covered and ready to install the wing.  Couldn't resist putting the components together for some pictures.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on October 25, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
After getting everything stuck together, you might try on your stooge for size. That big fillet and the forward motor peg location might foul against the stooge arms and break up the fillet edge with some pressure. Please don't ask me how I know that can happen on a hot day at the flying field and hours from your shop......


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: strat-o on October 25, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
It might look odd but you could probably get the job done winding it inverted.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 25, 2016, 08:53:20 AM
Tom,

Good call.  I hope to use the rear peg location, but we'll see how she balances out.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 25, 2016, 11:46:47 AM
I am at a loss to see why your model might foul against your stooge...WITHOUT SEEING THE STOOGE!!
Did I miss something??


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 25, 2016, 10:11:33 PM
ModelAce,  Tom was just reminding me to check clearances on the stooge.  Turns out the fairings are not in the way, but the depth of the fuselage at the forward peg location is sufficient to interfere with a protruding screw on the stooge.  I will nip the offending excess fastener length off.

Got the wing mounted, underfuselage and fairing structures installed, and the rest of the fuselage covered today.  Pictures show how I checked for wing-fuselage alignment.  This kit self-jigs this joint really well - no problems at all getting it square and level.  Underfuselage and fairing structure was tedious but came out fine, and I'm quite happy with how well a single piece of tissue covered the bottom from scoop to tail.  For those keeping track, tissue was applied wet with the grain perpendicular to the stringers.

I also got all the paint colors today (local hobby shop was closed for the weekend as the owner is a race fan).  I'm headed out to the garage for doping...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on October 26, 2016, 06:24:32 PM
Mike you were worried about your wing covering :) Your covering really stands out. You fellows amaze me with your covering efforts.
How do you intend to do the wing fillets - card, thin balsa?
John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 26, 2016, 06:48:46 PM
Thanks!  Fillets are bond paper. Will post pics of them tonight.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 26, 2016, 11:12:07 PM
Still plugging away.  Made the wing fillets from bond paper per kit plans.  The way the kit splits the fillet into three pieces per side leaves a rather obvious seam/step in the fillet, but I've done worse in the past.  I sanded the joint lightly with 600 grit, which helped, but it still shows after painting.

The kit ignores the cannon fairings on the wing upper surface, but they show pretty dramatically in pictures of the aircraft so I decided to make them.  I cut a template from 1/16 ply, used that to cut four identical blanks from soft 3/32 sheet, then spot-glued them to the template and sanded each blank to shape.  After checking reference drawings, I made a paper alignment template and glued the bumps to the upper wing surface.  A little white glue around the edges to give a clean joint with the covering and I'm calling that detail done.

Painting has begun using Tamiya acrylics.  Upper and lower gray shades are sprayed, along with white for the invasion stripes under the rear fuselage (see picture for the markings - this aircraft only had stripes under the fuselage).  Still have to do the green, black stripes, and sky spinner/band.

In between the other tasks I built a simple noseblock, made a wedge drilling stand, and drilled the block with ModelAce's patented 4 degree thrust offset.  Kit came with a very heavy 7-1/4" prop.  I replaced that with a Peck prop of same size.  I've made a second nose block and will bring smaller and larger props just in case trimming suggests a different size.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 27, 2016, 11:50:03 AM
This morning was dedicated to painting the dark green, which is the most tedious of the colors since this is where you spray the pattern.  I found online an image of a set of plastic model masks for the Tempest.  Pasted the image into Powerpoint, scaled it to match, printed it, cut and applied to the model using loops of Washi tape.  Took an hour to mask the model, half an hour to paint it and clean the airbrush, then another half hour to remove all the masking.  Using the masks kind of felt like cheating, but we roll for Gainesville in less than 24 hours.  Next up:  sky band, invasion stripes, and the yellow leading edges.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 27, 2016, 12:57:45 PM
Mike this is really looking great. Glad to know the project is moving along well.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Prosper on October 27, 2016, 01:29:54 PM
Very smooth work Mike! I can't see how using spray masks could be thought of as cheating, and the result is really good. The cannon drum fairings set it off - wouldn't be a Tempest without 'em :). Kudos.

Stephen.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Modelace on October 27, 2016, 03:10:34 PM
My "patented" thrust offset is 3 degrees, down and right. My "patented" noseblock drilling jig that gives that result is a  4-1/4 degree wedge.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 27, 2016, 04:54:27 PM
ModelAce,  please forgive my late-night oversimplification.  My wedge block was cut at 4 degrees, so my down and side-thrust will be slightly under 3 degrees each.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 28, 2016, 05:48:37 AM
Whew!  Good enough to travel.  Painting is finished, markings printed on label paper, cut out and attached, instrument panel and headrest armor plate added, two-faced pilot embarked, canopy trimmed, painted and installed, exhausts carved and installed, rudimentary line work done, and stab and fin glued on (stab is tacked to allow for incidence adjustment if necessary.

We'll see how the weekend goes!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 28, 2016, 09:33:50 AM
Looks like a fun filled weekend is ahead. Looks TERREFIC. DOUBLE WOW.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on October 28, 2016, 01:58:29 PM
MK
The model looks great. Cant wait to see it


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: strat-o on October 28, 2016, 03:23:02 PM
I wonder why both the Japanese and the British favored yellow leading edges?

Marlin

(Hey 100th post!)



Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Hepcat on October 28, 2016, 08:12:12 PM
response to #104.
Marlin,
We young lads only had the 'Aeroplane Spotter' at threepence a week for information so this is not a definitive answer, others will be able to reference sixty years of research but here goes.  I seem to think the roundels were surrounded by a pale yellow ring about when the war started. Early in the war camouflage seemed the most important thing and the white rings were removed in some cases and sometimes made narrower to make them less obvious.  The term friendly fire was not invented in those days but perhaps there were occasions when mistakes were made.  Anyway there was obviously a change of policy to make the aeroplane more easily recognized as English and the roundels were outlined with a bright yellow ring. I think the yellow leading edge appeared about the same time obviously with the intention of allowing quick recognition of friend or foe.  As I have been writing this I realize just what variety there was and that I had better shut up and leave it to someone who does know the correct answers to explain.
John
 


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on October 29, 2016, 02:41:11 AM
The yellow leading edges were for the European theatre only, from August 1941 onwards, accompanying the change of colour scheme from the Temperate Land Scheme (Dark Earth and Dark Green over Sky. with a black prop spinner) to what was then the new Day Fighter Scheme (Ocean Grey and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, with a Sky prop spinner).

The specific reason for the yellow leading edges was to provide easy identification of a friendly aircraft behind you.  Much the same reason as the Japanese had yellow leading edges - which is, of course, why the RAF *didn't* have yellow leading edges in the Far East, and ditched the red element from its roundels.

Mike: that's probably the best built West Wings scale kit I've ever seen. I am particularly impressed with the covering and painting, and using the masks was smart. Well done and good luck with your flights. Is the dihedral as per plan? While it is increased from true scale I think it is nicely judged: it doesn't look excessively 'cartoony', in the way that the Guillows Typhoon generally does.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 29, 2016, 07:37:58 AM
WIP,  Thanks much - I enjoyed building it.  Dihedral is 1.5" at the tips, the kit calls for 1". Made up motors last night after arriving at Gainesville, will balance it and see how it flies today.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on October 29, 2016, 06:50:10 PM
Good luck with it Mike. amazing effort to a deadline as well. Agree with WIP.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 31, 2016, 01:34:53 PM
Allright!  We had a great weekend in Gainesville - many thanks to the folks that put on the contest, it was a really great time.  Special thanks to ModelAce for assistance with initial trimming, IronMike for advice, encouragement and good company throughout the weekend, and FlyAce1946 for being a great travel buddy and keeping me awake through a six-hour-drive after two hours sleep.

First off, let me say this airplane is heavy.  After balancing, it weighs 58.4 grams without the motor, but it does fly.  I had prepped 4-strand, 15" loop motors from 1/8" and 3/16" tan super sport rubber, and was using a 7" Peck plastic prop.  Torque effects were pretty dramatic using either motor.  Best time was 29 seconds on the 1/8" rubber.  I tried the 3/16" rubber, it resulted in really tight turns with flights in the 14-18 second range.  

I think there is lots of room for improvement with continued trimming and motor refinement.  Next step is to make a couple more noseblocks, with increased thrust offset (will try drilling at 5 degrees and 6 degrees) and additional clearance between the propeller and airframe so I can get both more down and right thrust.  I intend to try both the current prop and an 8" plastic prop with the new noseblocks.  I am also going to try longer motors.

A few lessons learned:
1. Even after coating with dope, the Brother printer ink doesn't hold up to the morning dew.  All the roundels are now blotchy.  May need to buy an Epson...
2. The adhesive labels I printed the markings on are great for flat surfaces on sheet JetCat models, but don't work well over painted tissue.  Edges and corners keep popping up.  I'll use decals or tissuecals in the future.
3. Recommendations for bigger stab, increased dihedral, and lots of washout were spot-on - the model recovers well from a variety of gyrations and was flyable in winds I previously wouldn't have considered flying in.
4. Being able to adjust down vs. right thrust by simply rotating the noseblock was very helpful - I could wind, fly, adjust and repeat without having to play with glue and shims (see picture).  That said, I need to improve the fit of the noseblock as on several flights it popped out during glide.  May put magnets in the new ones since I have lots of nose-weight margin to play with...

So how did it do in the contest?  More through some folks having to leave early and the misfortunes of others than anything else, the Tempest placed third in WWII mass launch.  Flight times were sufficient to file scores in FAC scale, but nowhere near competitive - I'll work on that.

I posted a video of the final FAC scale flight:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6CfBTkQXKQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6CfBTkQXKQ).  Comments and snide remarks are invited...

Overall, I'm a happy man - Tempest was ready in time to fly at the contest, I had a great time meeting and flying with folks, and the airplane came home in one piece with ideas and potential for much improvement.  Thanks again for all the comments, advice and encouragement!

Mike



Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Pat D on October 31, 2016, 03:00:01 PM
Bravo Michael

Well Done

Pat


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on October 31, 2016, 08:31:34 PM
Great effort Mike - it sounds like it was tiring and fun. Did modelace end up shooting you down? :)
John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 31, 2016, 10:04:40 PM
Oz, BIG fun.  Unfortunately ModelAce had to depart before the mass launch was flown.  Given the impressive stable of aircraft he brought, I have little doubt that had he been flying my Tempest would have found itself interned for the duration of the conflict.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Maxout on November 01, 2016, 10:25:43 AM
Nice job, and looks like you got it flying well. Mass launches are as much about having a reliable model as having a high performing one.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: John Webster on November 03, 2016, 05:46:37 AM
Well done and a very good looking model.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on November 04, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
Congratulations! It looks very promising as a flier considering the length of time available to you to trim it. And as long as the CG and trim come right I wouldn't be too concerned about the weight. The Tempest is a massive, high speed, heavily-loaded tank of an aeroplane, like a P-47, so it would not be in the character of the full size to see one wafting around like a gossamer butterfly. While it may currently  be a little 'zoomy' in the initial burst of power it seems to be a lot steadier in the second half of the motor run, and the flying speed looks very convincing.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 06, 2016, 08:37:12 AM
WIP, John, Maxout, thanks for the words.  Still working on trimming out the beast.  Don D. sent me a copy of his articles, and I bought the McCombs book "Making Scale Model Airplanes Fly".  Using info from them I revised my CG location 3/16" aft, taking about 4 grams of ballast out of the nose and tweaking the stab angle to get the glide right.  I may need to put a little of that ballast back - had a few stall-and-dive incidents yesterday. The plane has been a tank - no damage yet (knock on wood).

The wad of clay in the foreground is what I dug out of the nose...  Nice thing about the Tempest (and Typhoon, I suppose) is that you have a built-in ballast compartment behind the scoop - I printed up a radiator face on cardstock and lightly glue-stick it into the scoop to cover the ballast access hole.

Went up to an 8" prop, but haven't gotten a good motor match yet - still working on that.  I'm having great fun putting the beast in the air.

Mike



Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 10, 2016, 09:12:18 PM
Weather has been poor this week so I decided to fix some things I rushed through while trying to get the Tempest in the air for the FAC meet.

The nose block popped out on a couple of flights, so I extended the nose block and worked on the forward fuselage to get a better fit. It is nice and snug now, with positive engagement at each of the thrust angle detents.

I wasn't really happy with shimming the stab during the last trimming session (shims kept shifting, making the adjustments less than repeatable), so I decided to make an adjustable stab.  Picked up some 0-80 nylon screws from Amazon and started surgery.  After removing the fin and stab, I trimmed down the fuselage to give more range for negative incidence.  I put a 1/64 ply tab in the former at the front of the stab mount to capture the stab spar and form a pivot point, glued some soft 3/32 sheet in between the stringer and keel at the rear of the stab mount, then capped that with 1/64 ply.  Drilled a hole through the stab and fuselage at the rear of the stab, slightly offset to the left so I would be able to get a screwdriver on the screw to make adjustments.  The stab hole was enlarged to clear the screw shaft and countersunk to put the top of the screw head flush with the upper surface of the stab.  Finished it off with a small cap of 1/64 ply over the screw head on top of the stab with a hole to access the screw head for adjustments.  The cap traps the screw in the stab, so a quick turn will raise or lower the rear of the stab.  Works like a champ, and the stab is held solidly in position unlike when I was attempting to shim it fore and aft.

Sharp-eyed folks will note that the roundels and fin flash are gone.  The Brother printer ink I used to print on label sheet for the markings was NOT water resistant, even with a coat of full-strength dope, so the markings blotched under the Gainesville dew.  I carefully pulled off the wing and tail markings.  Just for kicks I weighed them after pulling them off - just the wing roundels and fin flash weighed more than a gram!  Suffice to say the experiment with label paper goes down as unsuccessful.  Not sure if I'm going to paint the markings or use the West Wings decals, but I won't be using the label paper again.

Saturday looks like it may be better weather - hope to at least get some glide trimming done then.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on November 11, 2016, 06:30:05 AM
Picked up some 0-80 nylon screws from Amazon and started surgery. 

I didn't even know such things existed ! What a great modification that is. I am definitely going to follow a similar path for the tailplane mount on with my Gladiator (which I haven't touched for about 20 months  *guilty*)

That was a horrible weight you've removed with those paper markings - it's got to help! Painting the markings back on has got to be lighter than that...


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 11, 2016, 10:20:40 AM
WIP,

I can't take any credit for the jackscrew - I took the idea from one of Don Deloach's free flight articles.  If I were still in the construction stage I would mount the screw in the fuselage with a hole up through the bottom for the screwdriver - that way you could hide all the hardware.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on November 11, 2016, 10:41:05 AM
Don's article on using a torque meter is also a gem. I have since pitched my turns counter and go by torque alone, even for twins. Using a torque meter makes initial power trimming so easy and straight forward.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 13, 2016, 05:34:27 PM
Tom,

I read that one as well - downloaded the plans for a torque meter but have not made it yet.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 17, 2016, 01:43:17 PM
Spent several days flying the last week trying different motors on an 8" plastic prop and learning more about trimming low-wing models.  Many thanks to the FAC gurus who've given their time to take a look at the videos and offer suggestions; if I were better at putting their advice into practice I would be farther along.  Flights are typically 20-30 seconds - this should get better if I can A) improve the glide, and B) get the model to climb reliably on 1/8" rubber.

I started out trimming with two 18" loops of 1/8" rubber but wasn't happy with the climb; the model would get to 20-30 feet and just loaf along, landing with turns left on the motor.  Against expert advice, I went to two 18" loops 3/16 rubber.  As you would expect, the model climbed better but torque effects were worse and the motor run was short.  Next I tried two 21" loops 3/16 rubber.  This works somewhat better and I was able to somewhat tame the torque, but motor runs are still pretty short.  Glide is still falling off into a fairly steep right spiral, so all the altitude gained from the bigger motor ultimately is wasted.

Thinking through the flights and the advice I've been given, I think I need to make a torque meter, find out how far I can wind the 1/8" motors, and give them another try winding closer to the torque limit so I can get the initial climb together with a longer cruise and a more gentle transition to glide.  I also need to rethink the nose block - my current adjustment method trades downthrust for sidethrust and vice versa, rather than allowing independent adjustment of the two thrust components.  I got it close, but only after adding a separate shim for additional right thrust.

That said, yesterday's flights on the 3/16" motor were sufficient to exceed the boundaries of the field, resulting in a wingectomy on the adjacent school's fence.  Repairs are in work!

Video of the last few flights is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAPPJ_fhzM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAPPJ_fhzM)  Sorry for the thumb...I'm not much of a cameraman.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on November 17, 2016, 07:21:05 PM
Mike
I would make longer 3/16 motors and use the extended motor run as
your glide. I wouldn't expect much in the glide from this model.
Use the longest motors you can get away with till it jams up front.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on November 18, 2016, 11:12:02 AM
Mike, your Tempest adventures have got me so fired up for that favorite that I have started re-reading for about the third time "The Big Show" by Pierre Closterman. Great book for Tempest inspiration.

If you do get the torque meter built, and for whatever it is worth, here is my trimming steps. After setting the CG using the McCombs formula and getting a good glide, I load a motor much thicker than I know I will need for whatever prop I have and make it about 1.25 times the hook-to-peg distance. My goal is to find the maximum torque the plane can handle before it gets crazy and un-trimmable. A secondary goal is to get the model high enough to sort out the glide. I start with 2 in-oz and start flying and trimming. With each successful (and short) flight I up the torque by 1 in-oz and re-trim. Sooner or later I will start getting a brisk climb and the model will be high enough for me to see what the long-term glide does. Usually I get the classic and expected right turn that develops into a spiral to that hard, cold ground. My standard move is to put a dab of clay on the left wing tip to keep the wings level and kill the spiral.

About this time my model starts getting mean and crazy and roaring to the right, left, up and around and acting like it is going to re-kit itself in a heartbeat. No matter what I do at this point, I cannot trim out the problems. This tells me it is overpowered and if I drop back in torque, it becomes a  pussycat again. Now I know what the model will do in the climb and the glide and what the highest torque is I should go to. The next step is just a matter of lengthening the motor until I get the duration I want. Throw out that short and too-thick motor and make up one that can handle the torque you want. Regrettably, the model now will start carrying around more motor weight but this is usually handled by sneaking back up in torque a bit.

If you change props, the process will need to be repeated as the prop is the starting point. This process is just my method because I needed a cookbook approach I could apply to any of my models to come to some sort of workable power unit. My intuitive feel for motors and props absolutely suxs and otherwise I found myself frantically going from one fix to another hoping something, ANYthing would work. Having said all that, though, just based on my experiences with my 24"span WWII types, I will bet your motor will end up right where Iron Mike predicted. That old salt.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 18, 2016, 11:35:15 AM
Tom,

Thanks much - that is a very clear and logical approach, and really appeals to my inner engineer.  Will give it a shot!

Mike,

I was surprised how nice a glide I got during glide testing after moving the CG back to the McCombs position based on advice from Don, but this was off of a fairly short hill so I'm not sure the prop had really started to show any effects by the time the glide ended.  After powered flight the model falls off to the right just as Tom described.  Will have to try gliding it off of a higher hill to see if I can replicate the spiral and correct it.

Thanks,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on November 18, 2016, 04:11:11 PM
That right spiral is usually the result of the R hand prop.
My fix on this has been crank in left rudder and/or tip weight.
Then counter with right thrust until the R turn flattens out
with a right or str ahead glide.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 19, 2016, 12:40:54 PM
Repairs are progressing.  I pulled off the torn tissue and cleaned up the edges with a 600-grit sanding block.  Luckily, the spars tore out of the rib at the dihedral joint pretty cleanly, so that was just a matter of cleaning up the notch and gluing up some small cracks along the grain in the rib.  At the next rib outboard I cut the spars across the rib at a diagonal to allow splices rather than a butt joints.  The leading edge lamination break was pretty jagged at both ends, providing plenty of gluing surface, so I just applied glue to the outboard break and aligned it as best I could comparing it to the opposite panel.

Jigged up the airframe on blocks with shims at each tip to preserve washout, then glued the LE and TE back together.  After this set for an hour or so, I cut and glued in replacement spars.  I think I will add a some small gussets at the inboard and outboard LE breaks just as insurance for the glue joints.

The covering on the lower left wing has a lot of holes from the dry hay - I'm going to pull that off and replace it when I re-cover the right wing.

Hope to have it back in the air next week.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 21, 2016, 02:01:11 PM
More repair work.  Wing is back together and re-covered.

On the broken wing the tissue split up to the fillet.  After cutting away the tissue, there was no good surface to attach the tissue onto at the wing root - attaching it to the fillet seemed like a recipe for wrinkles.  So, I cut a sliced rib matching the root rib from soft 3/32 sheet, then sectioned it and fit it into the wing under each fillet.  I did both sides in case I have to re-do the tissue again.

I also put in a reinforcing block behind the machine gun ports on each leading edge.  While the ports didn't go all the way through the LE, the LE broke right through the middle of the inboard port, so reinforcement seemed prudent.

Tissue was pre-shrunk, then applied wet with thinned white glue.  Wet application worked much better than the dry application I did during the original build.  So far no discernable warps.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: strat-o on November 21, 2016, 02:26:55 PM
Really nice rebuild.  My modeling mentor once told me that it's almost always faster/simpler to rebuild rather than to start from scratch, so never throw away something that you haven't at least considered how you might repair/rebuild.  Also in repairing/rebuilding, you often have interesting problems to solve.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on November 21, 2016, 05:08:35 PM
Neat work Mike.
John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on November 21, 2016, 05:30:02 PM
That's a good looking repair, and quick work too.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on November 21, 2016, 10:08:39 PM
Good repairs so maybe it will fly soon. Sure hope so Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 21, 2016, 10:38:46 PM
Thanks guys.  If you can build it, you can fix it!

Allen, it will be flyable tomorrow, but I'll take the time to paint it up before I crash it again...

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 29, 2016, 03:32:42 PM
Got the camo sprayed on the repairs - no pictures because it really doesn't look any different than before.  Still have to re-do the control surface outlines, get the yellow on the leading edges and apply markings to the wings.  Next calm day it will be ready to resume flights.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on December 02, 2016, 01:51:11 PM
Took the repaired Tempest out to fly yesterday - generally disappointing results, with the model rolling right as it picked up speed from launch,  ending in a right bank into the ground.  Close examination showed that somewhere during doping and painting I've acquired a warp in the right outer panel, giving it about 3/32 more washout than the left panel.  No apparent structural damage from the impacts, but the canopy popped off and the tissue on the right side of the fuselage and between the wings on the underside split due to flexing.

I'll see if I can steam out the warp before trying flights again.

I did make a torque meter and used it for the first time yesterday.  I can see that this will become an essential tool...I worked my way up in torque flying my Guillows Skyraider and was able to get some very satisfying 45+ second flights, best that model has ever done.  I made this meter for 0-12 in-oz; I need to make another one for smaller motors/models, as my peanut motors barely move the pointer.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on December 08, 2016, 12:24:16 PM
Trimming continues.  I was able to steam out the warp in the right wing, getting it back to an even 1/8" washout in each panel.  Had a calm, cool day yesterday, so out we went.  Flew with a 7" prop and two 18" loops of 1/8 (back to the setup I used at Gainesville).

As much as anything I wanted to get used to working with the torque meter.  After some glides and a few hand-wound check flights, I wound it to 2 oz-in and got started.  Over the course of several flights I added trim tabs on the left wing and rudder, a little more downthrust, and a little weight on the left wing.  Result is a repeatable left climbout, transitioning to a right glide as the power comes off.  Glide is getting much better than previous trimming sessions.  I only worked up to 3 oz-in, as on the last flight things started feeling kinda tight as torque approached 3.  Flight seemed anemic, and post-flight inspection showed sure enough that there was a busted strand in the motor.

Posted a few of the flights at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttwMYSNLxP0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttwMYSNLxP0)

No really astounding flights out of the bunch, but it was a good day out and I'm pleased with the consistent behavior through the day and predictable response to trimming actions. 

No good weather coming until at least Monday, so it's time to make some more motors, maybe bench-test a few to get the feel for winding to higher torques.  From Don DeLoach's FAC article, it looks like I should be able to wind these motors to about 5-6 oz-in - I'm going to try that off the airplane first!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on December 09, 2016, 06:58:44 AM
It seems very comfortable in the air now. To me it is better on the 1/8" than on the 3/16", you seem to get a smoother flight and more opportunity to enjoy the sight of the model flying at fairly close range (also less risk of it being blown out of the field by stronger winds at greater height). I'd be very happy with those flights from the second one onwards. Really glad the warp went away: that now counts as a 100% successful wing repair!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on December 09, 2016, 11:02:19 AM
Wow, you are making great progress with the tempest and the trimming flights look good. I would not worry about torque at this stage in that you should have a very oversized motor installed and it should handle more torque than you should ever need. This allows you to keep upping the power until the plane gets uncontrollable and not be concerned about the motor bursting (although I would always use a blast tube as nasty surprises always come at the most unexpected times! Make sure you have a "twist lock" slot to go around the peg or the tube is almost useless).

You are smart in winding some motors of different sizes to destruction as Don's figures on motor failure did not match mine. Must be a difference in rubber batches---mine failed at 85% of his figures but I have had this stuff for years. When you do wind to destruction, really stretch that motor out, as he writes, and crank in those turns. By putting a lot more stress on the motor in stretching you can actually put more winds AND higher torque in before it blows. This is very counter-intuitive as you would think that if you were a bit more gentler with the rubber, more winds/torque could be packed in but not so. You are not wasting rubber, by the way, you are saving your airplanes in these destruction tests so do a lot of them.

I noticed one flight that the model (way off in the distance) immediately dropped its nose as the motor ran down in level flight. In other words it was not a climbing stall, but a level nose drop and dive. That can be an indication of too small of a stab that has lost it's effectiveness when the model slows down. You can get this phenomena even with the McComb's CG calculation of a TVO if it is under .65. I may have only seen a random blip in the Tempest but if it comes up again and again, this might be a cause. There is no cure except a bigger stab which is why our very skilled cohorts in the UK with their insistence on scale tail feathers are cursed for eternity, poor lads. But they have all that soft green grass.....


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on December 09, 2016, 12:21:07 PM
WIP, Tom, thanks for the words.

TVo for this model (built with an enlarged stab per IronMike's recommendation) calculates as .69, so it should be big enough.  The dip at the tail end of the motor run seemed less pronounced on the later flights after I'd added some left rudder trim - I'll keep an eye out for it next time I go flying.

The motor I flew with Wednesday had been wound a number of times.  It failed near the knot.  I've noticed a couple of times that I've nicked or torn motors when tying the knot; I suspect that may have contributed to this motor breaking where it did.  Will have to work on my knot technique and inspect fresh motors more closely...

I wound two short (4") 4-strand motors to destruction last night.  Both were from the same box of 1/8" tan SS I have been flying with.  Motors were stretched about 4-5 x resting length at the start of winding.  I wound the first one to 6 oz-in on my meter (at 283 turns), unwound it, let it rest about 15 minutes, then wound it again for a burst at 6.5 oz-in (at about 300 turns).  During the second winding I recorded torque at the same turn counts I had noted on the first winding.  Torque values at each turns increment on the second winding lagged the first by up to 1 oz-in.  The second motor burst on the first wind right at 6 oz-in (at 270 turns).  I have a few longer motors that I'll experiment more with.

From the tests so far I conclude that I should be able to safely wind the 4-strand 1/8" motors up to at least 5 oz-in.  I'll make some fresh motors for next time and continue working my way up in .5 oz-in increments.

A blast tube on this model will be challenging...  The cowl opening is 5/8", but the motor peg is towards the top of the fuselage and it would be tough to get a tube bigger than 3/8" past the last former and onto the peg.  For trimming and sport flying I'll keep on the conservative side of torque limits and motor re-use.

BTW Tom, I got a copy of "The Big Show" - looking forward to reading it after I finish "A Call To Arms" about the industrial mobilization for WWII.

Having great fun and learning a lot.  It was really great to see the Tempest up high against a leaden sky...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on December 13, 2016, 09:38:49 PM
Took the Tempest out again today.  This time I used two 15" loops of 3/16" rubber so I could crank up the torque as Tom has suggested.  Worked my way up to 5.5 oz-in with no bad behavior, but I popped a solder joint on the torque meter so I had to stop there.  I never could solder worth a darn...

Video of the 5.5 oz-in flight is at: https://youtu.be/G5OVEwyedTg (https://youtu.be/G5OVEwyedTg)

Powered flight behavior is really pleasing me - the left turn pattern was consistent throughout all the flights.  Glide isn't bad but there is still a little stall to be trimmed out.  Overall  I'm really happy with how this model flies - time to put on the rest of the decals and get a proper spinner on it!

Thanks again to all who've contributed tips and advice - much appreciated!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on December 14, 2016, 12:20:31 PM
Great flight, Mike! I think your competition should be getting nervous in the WWII mass launch. The power phase seems really dialed and once you tweak out that stall in the glide, I think you are there with duration the last thing to play with.

If you are going to read "The Big Show" be sure that you have the 2004 issue of the book. The original copyright of 1951 was cut down by the publisher due to a paper shortage in England at the time and a lot of chapters were dropped. The new issue has those missing chapters put in and it makes a good book even better. I like the sections where they face the FW190Ds and as an enlisted pilot he eventually takes command of a RAF squadron. His descriptions of flying are so vivid, even with the translation, that writing classes ought to use it if for examples of great prose.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on December 14, 2016, 07:15:46 PM
flight looks great to me Mike.
I think the slight stall occurs due to transitioning
from left to right. Wouldn't worry abt it.
3/16 rubber seems to do the trick.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on December 14, 2016, 09:33:17 PM
The flights are really great to see. Mike really likes to tweak data . Good SHOW follows.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on December 14, 2016, 09:46:23 PM
Mike, Tom, Allen - thanks all.  Tom, I did get the 2004 edition of "The Big Show".

Moving back to the 7" prop solved most of the problems I was chasing on this model.  I'll save the 8" for something else...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on December 16, 2016, 03:49:08 AM
It's got a lot of dynamism: it really captures the character of a high powered WW2 fighter in the air.
Enjoy The Big Show. Treat it as more of a docu-drama than 100% factual, but it certainly conveys a vivid impression of time, place and action. As does your model.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on December 16, 2016, 10:53:29 AM
You are right. In fact there was some guy on Amazon who wrote a long critique of the book and it's inaccuracies but as far as I am concerned it takes nothing away from the book. All wartime memoirs are, by definition, history remembered, not history reported.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on December 16, 2016, 11:30:39 AM
You are right. In fact there was some guy on Amazon who wrote a long critique of the book and it's inaccuracies but as far as I am concerned it takes nothing away from the book. All wartime memoirs are, by definition, history remembered, not history reported.
Good addition Tom, it has alway been that history is written by the victors. If truth here true we wouldn't need courts.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on December 16, 2016, 02:52:09 PM
I like memoirs - often more than "histories", especially the ones many journalists and historians are producing today.  Books like Ambrose's "The Wild Blue" jumble together all kinds of unrelated events, purportedly to provide context for the story, or worse yet exaggerate the significance of particular events to make some point the author (rather than the participants and/or those impacted by the events) thinks is relevant or important.  Memoirs show how folks perceived the events and (in the good ones) how they changed the way the author interprets life - that is much more interesting to me.  Sure, some memoirs are written with an intent to influence how people perceive the author and his or her role in events (presidential memoirs, anyone?), but critical reading of them can tell you much about how outcomes really affected the author.  I'm looking forward to "The Big Show" - looks like it will be an enjoyable read.

Anyway, time to sort out a good approach for the spinner on the Tempest.  I have the vacuformed one that came in the kit, but for me at least those usually don't hold up to much flying.  I'm trying to decide whether to turn a spinner from foam or from balsa.  Foam seems like it might be more robust...but I do like working with balsa better.  Whatever I make needs to fit onto the plastic prop and not interfere with free-wheeling.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 14, 2017, 09:53:43 AM
Tom Arnold,  I finished "The Big Show" last night - great book, thanks for the recommendation.  The Tempest squadrons really got torn up in the last few months of the war.

Not much flying in the last month between holidays, visitors and windy weather.  Still have to work on the spinner, but I've put most of my modeling time into the Waco SRE.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on January 14, 2017, 02:47:32 PM
A shout out to Mike for helping a fellow modeler.
Following along with this thread I bought and read The Big Show which got me wound up about the Hawker Tempest. This lead me to bid on an eBay West Wings kit I can use to inspire my own WWII combat ship. When the kit arrived surprise.
.........Now I get to the point........there was no plan. Printwood without plan, I got Dick!
A PM to Mike and the next day my email has files. I'm back in business and now have a rough layout for a Tempest scaled to 28" wingspan. Thanks Mike!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on January 14, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
That is good Forum spirit. Enjoy your build. I'm thinking of converting one to a Tempest II, I like the radial engine nose.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 15, 2017, 02:01:14 PM
CopBait, glad to help.  Post some pics as you go through your build, it will be interesting to see how the beast comes together and flies at the larger scale.  I'm also interested to see if the floppy rudder makes trimming easier.

WIP,  I've been thinking about a Tempest II as well.  The Airframe and Miniature book has nice 1/48 scale 6-views of both the II and the V (and VI) with sections, and it looks like it would be a fairly easy conversion.  From the cockpit aft they are the same aircraft - new formers up front, cowl, and add the oil cooler and carb inlets to the wing roots and you have a Tempest II.  There are some interesting colors (India, Pakistan, etc) out there for the II.

Copy the wing for the II, put it on a V fuselage and you can make a VI.  Then start on the prototypes with wing radiators, annular radiator, ducted spinner (ugh), Griffon engine... OK, maybe skip the last few.

Cheers,

Mike



Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on January 15, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
Mike-
My research says any round engine Tempest is not legal in WWII combat. It and prototypes can  fly FAC Rubber Scale. Am I missing something?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on January 15, 2017, 02:31:33 PM
One advantage of the II is that, perhaps surprisingly, the nose is slightly longer than on the V/VI, which can only help balance the thing.

Digressing very slightly, I also have a couple of their Sea Fury kits knocking about and have always thought I should build one of them as the land-based Fury prototype, LA610, in Mark I form with the Sabre VII engine cowled tight, Spitfire-style, and wide-span leading-edge radiators. What a temptress.

(https://oldmachinepress.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/hawker-fury-sabre-la610-taxi.jpg)

(http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/birds/hawker/temp08.jpg)

The leading edge itself would probably have to be hollow and lead to a vent underneath the wing, in prototypical form. I suspect that if you didn't let the air from those intakes pass through the wing and exit somewhere helpful you'd get some nasty stall characteristics. But I suppose there is only one way to find out.

Copbait: a significant number of examples of the Tempest II were delivered to the RAF in 1944, but were not deployed to squadron service until after hostilities ceased and the type didn't see actual combat until post WW2. I'm not familiar with the FAC rules but that may rule it out from the WW2 combat category, I suppose. But as you say, it could always fly in open rubber scale.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on January 15, 2017, 02:57:43 PM
Yes, that follows my research. WWII Combat subject aircraft need documented WWII combat.
I wouldn't allow air to go through the airframe. Too much drag


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 15, 2017, 04:24:04 PM
Agree, while Tempest II production started in late 1944, it looks like service acceptance and tropical trials ran through the war's end and the first operational units formed in England in August 1945, so no combat for that variant (or for the Tempest VI).  Should be able to fly in FAC scale, modern military, but not eligible for WWII Combat.  You could also fly a Tempest V in modern military if done in postwar colors - that would let one do the great-looking silver/yellow/black TT variant.

WIP, that Sabre variant of LA610 really looks nice - kid of like the prototype Tempest HM599 on steroids.  Much better than LA610 with the Griffon 85 engine.

For the wing radiator intakes, just make the openings very shallow and trim with black paint or tissue to give the illusion of depth.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Prosper on January 16, 2017, 04:19:03 AM
There's a very good Tempest site here (http://www.hawkertempest.se/) - history, walkarounds, colour schemes etc.

Stephen.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 16, 2017, 08:39:33 PM
Stephen,

Great site - I found a picture of the aircraft I modeled there during research for my Tempest.  Very interesting (and sobering) to read the logbooks and letters from wartime.  Is your sheet Tempest II still flying?

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Prosper on January 17, 2017, 05:57:02 AM
Hi Mike, yes there was fierce air combat going on right into 1945. I only realised this when reading Clostermann's book some years ago - before this I accepted the 'potted history' view that the Luftwaffe was disorganised, nearly out of fuel, a spent force and 'Operation Bodenplatte' was its last gasp. Well, I suppose it was all that, except for an ever-diminishing area that was still very hot, both at altitude and near the ground.

My Tempest II model is no more - can't remember the exact story but with me it's usually: model hits tree or crashes; needs repair; inspection shows how tatty it's become; may as well build a new one as undertake involved repairs.

Anyway I did some considerable preparation for a new one (Mk.V) in autumn 2015 and that languished. Your very appealing model has had me looking at the bits I'd prepared - I see your thread has kindled similar interest in others too - good stuff!

Stephen.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 21, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
Took the Tempest out today for some fun flying.  No video because I just wanted to enjoy watching it go. The model is flying really consistently now with two 19" loops of 3/16" rubber - aggressive climbout to the left, clean transition to a smooth right glide.  Been winding to 6 oz-in, giving flights in the 40-second range.  I should be able to take the rubber up to 8 oz-in, but I'll need to go to a heftier winder as my little yellow plastic one starts feeling dicey over 6 oz-in.

Being so heavy (67g flying weight with current motor) it will never be an endurance champ, but it is a good all-condition airplane and I'm quite satisfied with the way it's flying.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on January 21, 2017, 07:23:21 PM
So, looking back on the build, if you were to do it over, what would you do different? The Tempest is still on my to-do list!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 21, 2017, 09:35:41 PM
Tom,

Let's see... 

First, make the tail lighter - this model needed more than 10g nose weight.  Fin and stab were 2.17g uncovered, and could have been built with lighter balsa and no diagonal braces.  I lightened up the rear fuselage some by replacing the 1/16" formers with 1/32" and used lighter wood for the keels, but I could have used lighter wood for the stringers (and there are a lot of stringers).  Moving the motor peg forward would also help - I made provisions to do this but have not tried it yet.

At the nose, fill in the cheeks around the radiator - the kit makes the shape pretty well, but you end up holding the model a lot by the radiator and the extra support wouldn't hurt anything.  You could also get away with infilling back to the aft end of the exhausts.  None of this is necessary from a structural standpoint.

I'd use balsa rather than paper for the fairing at the aft end of the radiator - as above, you handle this area a lot while putting in the noseblock.  Mine is creased from handling the nose area.

I'd put a larger hole for the noseblock.  Mine is 5/8" diameter and is a little tight when winding in a wad of 3/16" rubber.  I'd also build a screw-adjustable noseblock for finer thrust adjustments (I may still do this).

Might also angle the noseblock and forward former edge down so that a spinner can be fitted cleanly with an even gap despite downthrust.

I'd also consider building a 4-bladed prop like IronMike has done on several of his models (again, I may still try this).

As mentioned previously, I tried printing the marking on self-adhesive label paper - this turned out to be pretty heavy, and didn't really like to follow the wing and fuselage surfaces.  I've peeled off the wing and tail markings and am in the process tonight of applying the kit decals for those.  I'll probably also remove the fuselage markings and replace them with decals for the roundels and painted tissue for the codes.

This was the first time I'd airbrushed Tamiya acrylics onto doped tissue - I like them, but I need to further refine my paint/thinner (denatured alcohol) ratios, as I think I got too much thinner in the gray and too little in the green.  The gray was more susceptible to lifting when removing the masking and has discolored in a  few places due to dew/moisture. 

Things I changed that worked - many of these were suggestions here on the forum or from FAC folks, thanks!

- Enlarging the stab to 9" span.

- Laminating the fin and stab outlines

- Making the stab angle screw-adjustable

- Replacing the kit canopy with the Diels Typhoon canopy

- Building 1/8" washout in each outer wing panel

- Increasing the dihedral to 1-1/2" at each tip

- Reinforcing the leading edge outboard of the dihedral break where the cannons are

- Adding a sliced rib under the outboard edge of the fillets

- Adding the cannon fairings on the wing (it looks naked without them)

- Revising the stringers where the radiator meets the front formers (see pictures of this back in the build posts)

- Cutting a hole in the front face of the radiator former to create an accessible ballast compartment

- This was my first model covered with Esaki - love that stuff!


Things I like about the kit that I wouldn't change:

- Love the wing-fuselage joint - strong, solid, aligned perfectly with minimal fiddling

- I also like the laminated leading edge, and the way the panels join at the dihedral break

- Overall the frames set you up well for a good covering job.


This has been a great build and is a fun model to fly. I expect to continue experimenting with noseblocks, props and motors.  I have no illusions about beating the Blue Max crowd with it, but I'll take it out on the field with them any chance I get!

Cheers,

Mike


 





Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on January 21, 2017, 09:45:39 PM
Mike
Great, detailed recap.
I really got into your methodical, jaw clenching approach to trimming.
Cant recall but did you need some water slide decals?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on January 21, 2017, 09:55:16 PM
Mike,

Thanks - I'm using the kit decals for the roundels and tail flash and will be able to use tissue for the codes, so I think I'm good.  The kit decals are old and take a long time to come loose from the backing paper, but they are reacting well to Solvaset and look good on the model.

Next week I'm picking up an Epson printer so I can print the tissue for the Waco SRE.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on February 08, 2017, 08:01:33 PM
Mike,
Just enjoyed looking through your build thread again ... lovely build  :)


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on February 08, 2017, 09:55:56 PM
Thanks - it was a fun build and made for a satisfying flyer.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on February 22, 2017, 10:03:47 PM
Beautiful day here in San Antonio - tried out a new motor in the Tempest.  Two 20" loops 1/8 plus one 20" loop 1/16.  It has promise, but I broke my torque meter (I really need to learn how to solder better) after the first flight so I was counting turns the rest of the day.  On the last flight I broke and re-tied a strand on the motor, so it was on short winds.  Video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scV7qw0e81U&t=2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scV7qw0e81U&t=2s)

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on February 22, 2017, 10:50:37 PM
Nice flights.....this plane has come a long ways, no? If you haven't tried it already, I recommend "silver solder" for metal attachments. It does need a good hot soldering iron but the joints are vastly superior to the usual stuff, or at least in my attempts to burn my fingers.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on February 23, 2017, 02:45:04 PM
Tom,

Good reminder on the silver solder.  I looked, and I still have a torch and silver solder kit I bought back in the '90s for some plumbing work.  Will need to get a new gas bottle...and maybe practice a bit!

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Crabby on February 23, 2017, 05:03:08 PM
You guys are into a hit of miss subject for me....soldering music wire, and do we go flame or flameless, Map gas or propane? I have had great luck and dismal failures in a number of techniques but I don't know what works and what doesn't
because I never took notice of what I was using. I did not utilize the scientific method!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on February 23, 2017, 05:53:24 PM
What a beautiful day mike. It looks like you were both having a lot of fun.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on February 23, 2017, 06:19:11 PM
I will say that silver solder needs a HOT heat source. I have successfully used a hefty soldering iron that can put out the BTUs and I have had rotten luck with a wimpy one that just could not heat the music wire and solder simultaneously. I have found that heating the music wire at the joint and letting the music wire then, in turn, heat and melt the solder is what makes a good joint. To melt the solder first never forms a good bond.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on February 23, 2017, 09:20:21 PM
John,

It was as good a day as you can get!  A light, steady breeze came up around noon - my peanut Citabria drifted backwards a hundred yards or so on one flight.  Nothing like a winter day nice enough to get a slight sunburn...

Tom,

My soldering iron and gun are too anemic for silver solder.  I'm going to play with some scrap to get the feel of the torch, flux and solder before going at the torque meter.



Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on February 23, 2017, 10:20:18 PM
What is the size of your soldering iron Mike? Even for average electrical work - I never go below 40 W. I use 80 W for end soldering batteries for example - even down to AA size.

Anyway happy experimenting.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on February 24, 2017, 03:00:56 AM
It's such a good model, it seems a super reliable performer now and looks great in the air.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on February 24, 2017, 03:02:47 AM
It's such a good model, it seems a super reliable performer and looks great in the air.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on April 02, 2017, 10:36:35 PM
Refreshed the markings, put on a spinner and took the Tempest to Gainesville, TX for the TCC/FAC Sq 17 Spring Warm-Up this weekend.  Saturday was pretty windy but managed to find two Heinkel He-100s to fly with the Tempest for WWII combat.  Beat one, lost to the other by about 5 seconds in the second round to take second place.

I flew it this time with a slightly shorter 3/16" motor (two 15" loops) and the rear peg in the forwardmost of the two peg positions.  The flights looked really good - fast, steep climb into the wind, solid cruise, decent glide. The model handled the wind very well.  I might have been able to take Grant's He-100 in the final round but I chickened out and only wound the short motor to 4.5 oz-in.  Pleased nonetheless...

Flight weight was 68g.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on April 02, 2017, 10:47:01 PM
Good job and congratulations. I am happy to see you have beat that dreaded flat, low wing instability. Gives me hope for my Sea Fury. Can you show any photos of the spinner and free wheeling assembly?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on April 02, 2017, 11:01:13 PM
Thanks Tom. 

I meant to attach this pic from Gainesville to the post above.  Absolutely nothing fancy or innovative about the spinner or free-wheeler - just glued the kit's vac-formed shell to the 7" Peck prop, using the prop's ramp freewheel. Downthrust puts the spinner a bit below center.  I fiddled about for a few minutes with the kit's balsa backplate and decided I'd rather spend time making the Waco flyable before leaving for the meet.

I'm still tempted to try a 4-blade prop with a bit more pitch.  The wife has a yogurt tub in the fridge that is just about empty, and the ShopSmith is still set up for turning...

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on July 15, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Haven't posted much on this one lately.  I cartwheeled it in May, tearing the tissue and cracking a spar on the left wing.  After setting it aside for several weeks I repaired the spar and seamed the torn tissue with Titebond - not really pretty, but it works and I didn't have to re-cover and re-paint.

I'd like to fly this in WWII mass launch at WestFAC, but really need more duration, so I'm playing with different motors.  I've switched to using the forward motor peg location so changing the rubber will have less effect on the cg.  My short and well-braided 2 15" loops of 3/16th rubber was working, but giving short motor runs and only 30-35 seconds duration.

Today I tried 3 21" loops of 3/32" rubber, and after a little noseweight and a shim for a little less downthrust this looks quite promising - video at:  https://youtu.be/90MqPOlz6SU (https://youtu.be/90MqPOlz6SU)/

It sure was a nice day for flying...

Cheers,

Mike



Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on July 15, 2017, 08:03:39 PM
Could you show your motor peg location?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on July 15, 2017, 08:10:08 PM
Sure - see pic below.  Forward hole has the peg, aft hole (kit position) is empty.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on July 15, 2017, 09:58:30 PM
Wow, that is a large move. Are you using a wobbly peg to allow long motor with short
P-P?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on July 15, 2017, 10:11:50 PM
Yes - the motor peg is 1/8" o.d. tube, and the peg end of the motor is wrapped around a short length of 1/4" o.d. tube with flared ends and secured with a dental band.  Seems to keep things from bunching up.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: kittyfritters on July 15, 2017, 10:24:13 PM
I use a 1/4" drapery tieback ring at the back of my motors.  Works very well.  They are available at sewing stores like Jo-Ann's in plastic and metal.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on July 16, 2017, 08:27:13 PM
Without the stall after the end of the motor run Mike you would have had a very good flight - it was pretty good as it was.

Even with the precautions do you think that was a case of temporary bunching of the motor? If it was perhaps a sleve on the rear end of the motor would help.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Sky9pilot on July 16, 2017, 10:41:26 PM
Nice repair...good luck with the re-trim and gentle breezes.
Tom


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: malc on July 17, 2017, 01:43:50 PM
Just discovered this and read it from the beginning - wonderful job!

Do you have any problems with the Tamiya acrylic coming off with the masking tape?

Malc.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on July 17, 2017, 03:01:36 PM
Malc, thanks - it was a fun build and has been both challenging and rewarding as a flyer.  If (when) I make another one I'll take more extreme steps to keep weight out of the tail.

Regarding the Tamiya acrylics lifting, yes and no.  I sprayed the Tempest with Tamiya acrylics over doped tissue.  When I thinned the paints using denatured alcohol I had some trouble with the paint lifting, even when taking steps to reduce the tackiness of the masking tape.  I also had some blushing particularly with the dark ocean grey.  When I re-sprayed after some patching I tried thinning the paints with lacquer thinner.  This seems to produce a much better bond between the paint and the doped tissue - didn't really have any trouble with washi tape or yellow Frog tape lifting the paint.  I did still take the precaution of rubbing the tape on my forearm a couple of times to reduce the tack.  The lacquer thinner also seemed to eliminate the blushing.

Tamiya sells both alcohol and lacquer thinners for their acrylics.  I used hardware-store lacquer thinner because I had it on hand and it is much less expensive than Tamiya's thinner.

With the lacquer thinner I've been quite pleased with the results, and will use that combination again on future models.

Be sure to post some pics of your P-40 once you've got it all dolled up - that framework is just beautiful!

Hope this helps,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: malc on July 17, 2017, 05:04:05 PM
Mike, thats a great tip, thanks, I only used alcohol thinner for my Dash 8, will look for the Lacquer thinners at this weekends model show. (IPMS - not flying!)

I'm not half as good at paint as the balsa bit so don't get your hopes up!

Malc.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 06, 2017, 08:09:10 PM
Don't you hate it when you go out for some trim flying, do light winds and get a great first flight, then whack into a stooge on final?  Yeah, me too.

Been working on improving the Tempest's duration in anticipation of this month's WestFAC WWII mass launch.  I finally got around to replacing the diamond hook with a proper reverse S hook, and made up a new 6x24"x3/32" motor.  Wound it up to 2 oz-in for a test flight, got over 30 seconds with a nice left-right pattern and a smooth transition to glide, only to clip a stooge post at about 1 foot altitude.  Repairs will commence this weekend...

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 07, 2017, 12:58:30 PM
Yes it was a great flight until the bitter end. Fix that bird up and I will try to have the stooge safely stored away the next time.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Crabby on October 08, 2017, 11:12:25 AM
Battle scars add charisma. My air force looks like a game 7 NHL locker-room!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 31, 2017, 09:55:04 AM
Well, I got the Tempest patched up and took her to WestFAC.  Wound her up for the first round of WWII mass launch, lined up with everyone and psyched myself up.  There was a moderate breeze blowing, and I've had some success previously launching a little steep into the wind with a right bank, but I launched too steep so instead of climbing quickly and rolling out for a nice flight the Tempest climbed quickly and rolled over for a quick dork.  Given the quality of flyers and models present I'd have been very lucky to survive into the second round even if I'd had a great launch.  The Tempest was undamaged, but I think it's time to relegate it to fun flying and think about a lighter model for future WWII competition.

Ratz, this thread can be moved to the "completed builds" section.  Thanks again to all who offered advice and encouragement over the last year!

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on October 31, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
It was fun following and talking with you about building one, then reality set in over emotion. Some subjects are just not cutout for ML. Mine was a 24” FW-190D.
What are you considering for WWII?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 31, 2017, 03:48:09 PM
It was fun following and talking with you about building one, then reality set in over emotion. Some subjects are just not cutout for ML. Mine was a 24” FW-190D.
What are you considering for WWII?

Thanks - not really sure yet what to build next for WWII.  The Diels P-47N (believe you had some success with a P-47) or Ki-84 interest me and are sitting in my closet, but I'm debating with myself about doing something a bit larger, maybe 24-30" span.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on October 31, 2017, 04:15:22 PM
 I love the P-47 configuration but consider Deil’s models too small, too fussy and therefore needlessly detailed and heavy for combat. If you want a good kit start choose early Comet. Use 5# wood and adapt modern nose and wing pass thru design. Comet are minimal and fit the scale requirements without excess.
Better still I recommend reviewing the past 10 years of Flying Model FAC combat build articles and assemble whatever you find interesting. Deloach, Starleaf, Henn and Rees come to mind.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Crabby on October 31, 2017, 04:38:37 PM
Mike why not do the Ta152? great plans out there and it was Bill Henn's prize stallion for years....I have the article and the plan he used. I don't think you have to nazi it up as I think it was used in other air forces.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: flydean1 on October 31, 2017, 08:44:12 PM
Crabby, I think the TA152 and/or 190D9 were used in very small numbers by the Russians. Who helped themselves to any airframes the retreating Nazis left behind. 


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 02, 2017, 09:53:45 AM
Thanks for the suggestions guys.  I believe it was a large TA-152 that won the mass launch at Geneseo this summer.  I owe the wife a few cabinetry projects after my building spree this summer, so I've got a little time to peruse plans and options before starting another WWII ML bird.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Work In Progress on November 05, 2017, 07:25:36 AM
If it's the long-span Ta-152H you were thinking about, there's a captured aircraft with RAF markings
http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/MY/MY76-6/13-3.jpg


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Copbait73 on November 05, 2017, 02:36:25 PM
That may run afoul the markings rules for FAC WWII Combat.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on March 26, 2018, 05:01:30 PM
A happy coda for this build thread:  This weekend the Tempest took first in a windy 5-person 3-round WWII Combat at the Texas Scale Champs in Gainesville TX, scoring my first FAC event win.  First round was a pretty ugly flight, ending with the Tempest bouncing off the taxiway (literally) at landing, splitting a prop tip and shredding the tissue on the radiator.  I came down 3rd of 5 and was still flyable so on to round 2.  This flight was better until the freewheeler hung up costing much hard-earned altitude, coming down 3rd of 4.  Rich Adam's beautiful Hellcat sailed almost to the edge of the field on a beautiful long flight for round 2, IronMike was unlucky and had a catastrophic inflight wing failure on his venerable Zero.  In round 3 I wound a bit harder and almost paid the price - the Tempest torqued over to the left hard, pulling out about four feet above the ground and climbing nicely thereafter.  Rich either had a bad launch or some sort of damage and was down first in round 3 - the Tempest hung on just long enough to touch down after Chuck Powell's Hein to take the win.  The contest was a great time, with good flying early both days and late in the afternoon on Saturday and lots of great times with great people.

Crappy hat-cam video of the first two rounds here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQCXRiRkgQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdQCXRiRkgQ).  The cameraman (me) has been fired for failing to start his camera before the round 3 launch...  Note the wind noise throughout the video.

Between taxiway rash, broken motors, wingectomies, stooge hits and various other incidents the Tempest is looking pretty war-weary, but I don't care - it's been a great plane.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Rich Adams on March 26, 2018, 05:56:36 PM
Mike did th eone thing that wins contests...he didn't give up. I remember when he first brought out the Tempest last year. It was beautiful but needed help to get flying. He has done a wonderful jib with it. It does look like Heck now, but it's been worth it.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 27, 2018, 06:11:47 PM
Well, yesterday I made the Tempest look a bit more "like Heck".  I'd put an 8" Igra prop on it as the modified 7" Sig prop I used at the Outdoor Champs in Muncie last month was very disappointing.  Initial flights looked very promising with good climb and a nice cruise.  After fixing some minor rash I wound it to 5-1/2 oz-in on my standard 2x22" loop 3/16" motor and gave it a toss.  Great climb, started a normal left power pattern, then the breeze shifted and it turned right for about 30 deg heading change and charged out beyond the field, over the parking lot, then cruised nicely over the local big-box store, where it did a right spiral descent onto the roof!

The local security guys were very helpful, got the code, unlocked the roof access and retrieved the model, but as the guy on the roof passed the model to the guy on the ladder it got crunched, folding the fin and breaking the right wing at the dihedral joint.  No complaints, I was happy to get the model back and bought them each a 12-pack of their chosen beverage.

As Rich said above, the model has gotten pretty ragged (and heavier) after a couple burst motors and two years of fun and learning.  I recently read Roland Beamont's "My Part of the Sky" and had been thinking about re-covering the model and marking it up as his RB Wing Commander aircraft.  Yesterday's damage pushed me over the edge and today I stripped the airframe.  Plan is to build a lighter set of tail surfaces, sand and trim the model to reduce the aft end weight as much as possible, then re-cover it in printed tissue using flight simulator skin graphics like I did on the Me-262 jetcat.  Flying weight with motor yesterday was 65.7g, I'd like to see if I can reduce that by at least 10g.  I also want to open up the noseblock area a bit to make using a blast tube and getting the last bit of a fully wound motor in a bit easier.  We'll see how it goes...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on October 27, 2018, 07:17:07 PM
Mike I would expect you to have it ready for the next event just around the corner.  Hope you make it even better.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 30, 2018, 06:25:42 PM
Sanded off the remaining tissue residue and trimmed/sanded about 1.25g off the aft end of the airframe.  Infilled the front end as the tissue up there took a beating from handling the model and landings - I used some firm 1/8" sheet to fill the bottom of the radiator housing, did the rest with very light 1/16" and 1/8" sheet.  Had to use a bit of filler over the formers as they had been sanded flat between the stringers before the original covering job.  Infill, glue and filler added about a gram back onto the front end of the model.

For the stab and fin I laminated the outlines with 3 layers of light 1/32" sheet (soaked 24 hours before forming it up).  That'll need to cure a day or two before breaking it out of the forms.


Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on October 31, 2018, 03:50:34 PM
Cut the larger noseblock well today.  I made up a simple jig to hold the fuselage straight and level in the Shopsmith, aligned it, then cut the plug hole to 7/8" and the keeper hole to 1-1/8".  To trim the depth of the keeper hole I CA'd a broken-off bit of razor blade into a dowel with a tight-fitting o-ring for a depth stop.  Worked like a charm.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 04, 2018, 05:48:58 PM
Completed frames for the new fin and stab using lighter wood and simpler construction.  Previous set was 2.17g before covering, new set is 1.05g, should help the balance a bit.  Airframe is all sanded up, just about ready to cover.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Prosper on November 05, 2018, 07:03:49 AM
This is an interesting restoration Mike, I've got a sharp eye on it. On the face of it I'd say that paring 10g off anything this small would be impossible, but then I'd also have to say that (having built a 1/24 Tempest II) . . .errr. . .nearly 66g flying weight is, err, a bit on the portly side - but I may be comparing apples and oranges: I know that the FAC style of model is likely to have a far greater proportion of its AUW as rubber than anything I build.

If you've saved about 2.5g at the tail that'll be 3 or 4 off the nose so you could be 6 ½g lighter already - that's a huge change. Will you use the same motor or a thinner one, thus saving even more weight for the same number of turns?

Stephen.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 05, 2018, 10:23:01 AM
Stephen, you are correct that this is one dense model.  Wing area is about 78 sq in, so target flying weight at .5g/sq in would be less than 40g. I've been flying it at about .84g/sq in!  If I get the weight down to 55g it'll be more like .7g/sq in, still heavy but a bit more reasonable.

The moments on the model are in my favor - 1 gram at the tail should correspond to about 2.85g at the nose.  I've already taken about 1.25g off the rear fuselage, and I think I'll get about 1.5g off the tailfeathers.  I'm going to go with printed tissue instead of painting the model - from my notes the paint and markings added about 2 grams to the model on the previous iteration.  That gets me pretty close to 10g saved.

I'd like to go from 2 loops 3/16" down to 2 loops 1/8", we'll see what the weight comes out to be and whether the smaller cross section will get the model moving fast enough with the 8" Czech prop. My 2x22" loop x3/16" motor weighs 10.75g - a similar length 2 loop 1/8" motor should be about 7.5g, but if I can get away with it I'd probably lengthen the motor to get a longer power run.  I opened up the noseblock and the forward formers to give a little more room inside the fuselage as I had encountered binding when I tried 24" motors.

We'll see how it goes - it's the discovery that makes it fun, right?

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 07, 2018, 12:34:09 AM
The kit specifies paper for the fillets over the leading edge of the wing and for the exit of the radiator duct.  I found that the paper over the radiator duct got folded and mutilated due to handling, so I replaced the forward fillets and duct exit with sheet balsa.  With that done it was on to covering.

I'm printing tissue for this one to avoid the weight of paint.  I found a nice IL-2 flight simulator skin for Roland Beamont's "RB" and adapted that to provide graphics for the tissue.  I chalked the invasion stripes and colored the back of the yellow, red and white in the insignia with colored pencils to make them stand out a bit.  Covering the fuselage has been very tedious, as the skins don't have all the subtle curves to make the invasion stripes and panel lines come out straight when applied to the model, but with a bit of sectioning and stretching it's coming together.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Crabby on November 07, 2018, 09:19:38 AM
Mike, I did invasion stripes on my Herr P-51 and getting them looking right on the fuse especially over and under that big scoop was a trip. What I ended up doing was a quick loose covering job in white tissue, then drawing the stripes with a fine black marker, then removed the tissue, lay it flat and scan it. I did the final detailing in Adobe Illustrator, and all matched up without a hitch. Here is an old patched up Peck P-51. I did it the same way. I have swore off using a computer for graphics a few years ago. While the results are great, its better for eye-hand coordination and for me a better challenge to do everything by hand (practically).


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 07, 2018, 10:23:02 AM
Nice looking Mustang Crabby!  The tissue templates work well, I used them for fuselage sections on the Navion and Tigercat.  I wanted to take advantage of all the nice surface detail and weathering graphics in the flight simulator skin so I'm kinda stuck with what's in the source graphic. 

I know what you mean about computer graphics vs. classic tissue work.  Some models just cry out for hand-cut or hand-drawn tissue and ink markings.  I enjoy both approaches, but I admit to feeling a bit more satisfaction when a hand-lined spliced and layered tissue covering job comes out well than when it's all been printed up on the computer.

Fuselage is done, on to the wings.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: ironmike on November 07, 2018, 12:09:46 PM
Mike
Why not take some wood from all those solid ribs!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 07, 2018, 03:52:55 PM
Mike,

Thought about it every time I looked at the wing, but it didn't seem worth the hassle - it'd all come off right around the cg, and I'd be lucky to get a gram with aggressive hacking.  Given that the model is still going to be pretty heavy and with my style of flying it'll need to take some abuse, I decided to leave it as is.

Wings are covered, just have to do the stab and the fillets.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: OZPAF on November 07, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
The graphics have a realistic subdued appearance Mike. It looks too good for FAC mass launch :)Wish I could cover like that!.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 08, 2018, 01:36:24 AM
Thanks John.  It has its share of warts, the subdued colors helps hide them.  Just about done with tissue, have a couple of patches to do and it'll be ready for dope.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: piecost on November 08, 2018, 06:38:45 AM
Mike,

 I was wondering if enlarging the IL2 skins would encounter resolution problems. But your model looks great.

Do you have the relative weights for paint and printed riasue?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 08, 2018, 10:04:48 AM
Thanks Pie.  The skins only needed about 10% enlargement to match the model, so pixellation isn't bad.  You can see it if you look closely at high-contrast color transitions with sharp curves (such as the roundels), but from more than a foot away it's not obvious.

I haven't doped the model yet so I don't have final numbers on the weights.  From the original build the tissue, fillets and clear dope added about 5.7g to the model, with paint adding about another 2.2g (the decals and bond paper markings added a bit more on top of that, can't find the amount in my notes).  Undoped so far this time tissue and fillets added 5.13g to the model.  I'll weigh it again after doping, but I'd guess the finish will save 1.5-2g.

I expect the new tail and what I carved out of the aft end will provide most of the weight savings.  The old tail group covered and painted weighed 3.36g, the new tail group covered before dope weighs 1.7g.  Just that gram and a half savings with corresponding nose weight reduction should be good for over 6 grams savings, almost 10% off flying weight.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 10, 2018, 12:24:43 AM
Finished putting the Tempest back together tonight in the hotel at Gainesville.  No nose weight required to balance it! Flying weight with 2x22" loops 3/16" rubber is 54.5g, just over 11g lighter than previous configuration.  Tomorrow at the Texas Scale Champs we'll see how she trims out and flies.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: DavidJP on November 10, 2018, 05:11:36 AM
Will be keen to hear the result - hope the Host/Contest Director behaves himself..........and you get a trophy or two!!


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: Prosper on November 10, 2018, 08:00:13 AM
Quote
with 2x22" loops 3/16" rubber
Ah! The same size motor, then? That'll be interesting. It might need a touch of downthrust?

Stephen.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 12, 2018, 09:11:33 PM
Here's some pictures of the completed Tempest at Gainesville after putting on the gingerbread and painting the spinner the proper yellow.  Weight shown is with the 2x22" loops 3/16" motor, which I used for all my flying there. 

Over several flights I worked up from 3 oz-in to 6 oz-in torque (750 turns to ~1100 turns).  Up  to about 5 oz-in flights looked pretty good, above that things turned into a roller-coaster ride.  Probably need to go down to loops of 1/8" or a mix of 1/8" and 3/16" loops.

With the limited time I had to play with the model before the WWII mass launch I stuck with the 3/16" motor.  First round was wound to a little over 5 oz-in and went OK, with a good climbout to a nice altitude before the porpoising started.  Flight was good enough to get me into the second round, although IronMike did try to take me out by spearing me from behind with his P-40!  I survived, and his Warhawk suffered only a broken propeller.  I wound to 6 oz-in for the second round and paid the price - didn't get enough altitude to make it through the porpoising and was first one down after about a 20-second flight.  No damage, so now I can spend some quality time getting to know the model and tuning the power package.

Video coming...

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 15, 2018, 12:33:02 PM
Video of the Tempest rebuild with trim flights and WWII mass launch at Gainesville TX is up.  Post-contest inspection showed that I hadn't got the knot all the way to the back of the motor, and that I hadn't trimmed the rubber ends close enough to the knot.  Result was the last inch or so of the motor binding up near the peg, upsetting the balance and spoiling flights when wound to high torques.  I'm going to make a couple of motors (more carefully) with cross sections from 1/2" to 3/4" and experiment a bit more to find a good balance between torque and motor run duration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXVYQKrp2dw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXVYQKrp2dw&feature=youtu.be)

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: FLYACE1946 on November 15, 2018, 02:01:16 PM
Sure would like to cover like that too.
The graphics have a realistic subdued appearance Mike. It looks too good for FAC mass launch :)Wish I could cover like that!.

John


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: tom arnold on November 15, 2018, 03:02:19 PM
Great flying, Mike, and great info that you pass on regarding the build. I wish I could make Gainesville but the snows of Wyoming are a real hindrance every year. The Tempest has a very pleasing level of dihedral (i.e. it is not so much as to look silly) and really captures the "scaleness" of the real plane. Can you tell us where are the wing tips in relation to the thrust line and bottom of canopy? I have a Sea Fury that needs more and I am very undecided as to how much.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 15, 2018, 04:31:56 PM
Thanks Tom.  I set dihedral on this model 1.75" up at the tips (plan called for 1" up at the tips).  That puts the wingtips about 3/8" above the fuselage horizontal centerline, or about 1/8" above the thrustline at F8 (thrustline projected from nose plug with about 2 deg downthrust).  It's probably more like about 1/4" above the thrustline between F6 and F7 where the tips are located. The tips are about halfway between the horizontal centerline and the bottom of the canopy (see picture).  This model has always seemed to be adequately laterally stable (unlike my Navion, which was useless in the turbulent air last weekend…).

Hope this helps,

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: piecost on November 15, 2018, 06:15:20 PM
Thanks for posting the video. The model looked great in the air.


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: fred on November 15, 2018, 08:50:10 PM
Lovely Build/Model. Well Done!
 No arguing or even wanting to  in fact.
Am Surprised by the weight of the thing tho.
 Going over the Build instructions for my Alfa Models fw90D model of 1:24 th scale .. Where  absolute Max flying weight is 65 gms .
 Now this is for a prepainted ..formed model with all details..... fitted with:
  an Electric Brushless motor, Battery, Rx,  Esc,  2 servos and requisite servo linkages. .. which total ~30/ 35 gms.. (gear choices dependant).
 Seems somehow odd to my old mind that such an RC intended airframe is obstensibly lighter than a  craftsman built stick 'n tissue airframe  with a gummy band motor and zero avionics.
 This being a 8 yr in  production 35$  'Kit' So not even a New offering.
Notably Alfa currently has a few other 1:24 short kits (rubber or ?) power for ~20$
Moderne times has more than caught up?


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 15, 2018, 09:53:40 PM
Yep, foam shells can be very light.  If I'm reading the Alfa website right that FW190's span is a couple inches smaller than the Tempest, so not surprising the airframe is a bit lighter.  These West Wings kits are not at all lightweight - lots of lumber in them.  My airframe after the weight reduction program is just over 43 grams (without rubber).  I've no doubt that with careful wood selection and lightweight building techniques one could make a Tempest this size come in with an airframe weight between 30 and 35 grams - Stephen Prosper has shown the way with some of his builds.  Maybe someday I'll try that with a Mk VI.

Anyway, this model has been a lot of fun and has taught me a lot over the last several years.  I'm looking forward to several more years of fun with it.

Mike


Title: Re: West Wings Tempest Mk V for FAC WWII Combat?
Post by: MKelly on November 18, 2018, 11:55:08 AM
Useless trivia on ageing models - I was looking back through this thread and saw where I'd said during construction that the dihedral was set to 1.5" up at the tips, contradicting the 1.75" I'd told Tom Arnold a few posts ago.  This made me go measure the model and look over my construction pics in search of an explanation.  When I assembled the wing, I blocked the outboard ribs up 1.5" at the LE, with 1/8" washout shimmed in at the rear of the outboard rib.  When I measured dihedral for Tom last week I measured the left wingtip at the spar at 1-3/4".  Re-measuring the outboard rib LE this morning I get 1-9/16" for the left wing and 1-7/16" for the right wing - visually the left wing outer panel has a bit more washout and dihedral than the right.  Looks like in the course of repairs and re-covering some differences crept in. 

Cheers,

Mike