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Outdoor Free Flight Forum => Embryo Endurance Outdoor => Topic started by: skyrocket on December 19, 2016, 03:51:56 PM



Title: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 19, 2016, 03:51:56 PM
This is the Embryonic Elf I've been flying the past 2 years...it is around 20 grams, flies on 4 x 1/8" braided, 8" D. x 10" P. carved Roberts prop...all 4 built so far fly right off the building board with a little weight in the nose...and they all fly the same...plans were drawn from a 90% reduction of the original Elite Elf from post-war
Limeyland and by Albert Hatfield (yes, THAT Albert Hatfield or Hatfull)...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: Mooney on December 19, 2016, 11:12:57 PM
Looks great! Are you maxing with it?


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 20, 2016, 10:53:49 AM
yes and it's trouble-free once you get the balance set, just take it out of the box and fly it...I've tried it with an under-cambered wing and a flat bottom one and it doesn't seem to make a difference...the original made from the Elite Model Supply plan flew the same way...the curved air foil shaped fuselage requires a little fiddly work but with stringy 1/16" square longerons, it isn't bad...I believe someone has a plan in the plans list but I won't release one until I get one more season in with it.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: FLYACE1946 on December 20, 2016, 07:56:21 PM
This one is another embryo  that just looks right to jump off the table. Looks mighty nice.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 20, 2016, 09:50:19 PM
yep...it likes a little breeze but gets up in a tight spiral...a totally different flight pattern than say, a Debut, which goes up like a miniature Unlimited ship, much like Gordon's "Synthesis"  back in the day...I suppose I could use 4 x 3/32" on a calm day and reduce the AUW but I'm happy with the climb so far...stay tuned...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: scrubs on December 22, 2016, 10:04:31 AM
Cute Dave. Are the wing supports a little higher than the original plan? Or is it an illusion from the pics?

bill


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 22, 2016, 01:24:47 PM
Yes they are but I lost that one at 13 minutes over the field this summer because I didn't light the fuse!...on the new one  I eliminated the supports and strapped it right to the top and retained the wing dowels...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on August 02, 2017, 05:56:39 PM
Love this design!  Do you know where I might find a plan for this?


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: PB_guy on August 02, 2017, 08:42:52 PM
When I looked for the plan, I only found a jpeg. I did do a redraw of the original plan. Inch markings on the plan.
Original attached as well.
ian


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on August 03, 2017, 01:23:02 PM
Thanks!  Boy, that sure seems like a lot of incidence!



Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skycafe on August 03, 2017, 05:43:34 PM
That is a lovely looking covering job and airplane.   That it is a funky shape adds to the appeal.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on October 10, 2017, 11:32:05 AM
I'm building #5 right now as I stomped on my Debut at Geneseo at the last Great Grape Gathering out of frustration - it just wouldn't fly consistently and was getting a little "worn"...I'm laminating the tips and cutting down the incidence a bit which was a problem...I'll pass on some photos once I get building...if this one flies as well as #3, I'll sell the plans through "snail mail" for a small amount. I did see the digital plan at the top of this column but I prefer to draw my plans. There are so many excellent draftsmen/draftswomen out there that give a certain amount of character to a plan that makes you want to build it and I enjoy drawing.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: OneArm on November 10, 2017, 08:52:05 AM
What size wood are you using on the Elf? The drawing scales 3/32, but could see using 1/16. Thanks


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on November 10, 2017, 10:04:49 AM
I'm using 1/16" squares. I'll be testing the new one soon but the weather took a turn (Ohio) so I'll have to wait a little while. I did test glide it and the CG pegged okay so I might have to wait until KOI to fly it.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: OneArm on November 10, 2017, 10:14:17 AM
Thanks. Yeah, I'm in Pittsburgh, so same weather


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on November 10, 2017, 03:13:06 PM
yep...you are 2 1/2 hours away...my wife's daughter lives in Blawnox just up river...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on November 13, 2017, 01:41:36 PM
I printed these plans and have the parts cut for this one.  I think I will be building it soon!  If so, I will update with my results.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on November 13, 2017, 04:42:02 PM
I pre-bent the bottom longerons before I pinned it down and eliminated the goal posts for the wing to give it less incidence - about 2 degrees at the most or you will have to add a ton of nose weight. It flies just as well with under-camber as with a flat bottom airfoil...good luck and be sure to add a D/T.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on November 13, 2017, 05:30:16 PM
Thanks, I will definitely add a D/T!  I was already thinking I would soak the longerons and pre-bend overnight.  I will probably start with 1.5 degrees incidence.  I assume and hope the CAD drawing(showing the flat bottom airfoil) that you posted is accurate, because that's what I'll be building from!  I need to recover an ancient Korda Wakefield that I inherited, then I will start the Elf.  

What is your wingspan, and do you have an idea of the actual Sq/in?  I figured it at about 19" for just under 50 sq. in.

Phil


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on November 13, 2017, 06:56:37 PM
I didn't draw that CAD drawing and I don't make any claims to it's accuracy. I drew it by hand as I do most of my models because I LOVE the look of hand-drawn plans...there are so many beautiful model drawings out there - it's staggering!....my wing worked out to 49.6 square inches and was reduced from the original plan until I got under 50 square inches. I didn't change much of the construction, just modernized it  some....#5 came out around 18 grams and that's good enough for me...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on November 30, 2017, 02:39:28 PM
I'll start cutting wood on my Embryonic Elf tonight!  Looking forward to it.

skyrocket, two things:  1)  I'm thinking about reducing that incidence down to about 1 1/2%.  Sound about right?   2) Just wanted to say that my DeBut embryo from the Easybuilt kit files very well and consistent- so don't give up on that design.   Funny how an otherwise good design can give you fits trimming, but fly right off the board for others.  My half Gollywock from the OReilly plans is like that.  Looks beautiful but I am have a tough time getting it trimmed.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 01, 2017, 10:17:57 AM
I hear ya...I'm going out at noon today and spend some time trimming the Elf, 1/2 size Golly, 1/2 size Hepcat, full size Elite Skyrocket and my P-30...should be enough to keep me out of trouble...suppose to be 3 mph winds and 45 degrees temp...one and a half degrees sounds good to me as I like to lock down the wing incidence first and then play with the CG before attempting to add tail incidence...about the Debut : I found out the hard way in trimming it and still didn't like what I saw but I think it was the builder and not the model...anything under 20 grams should blow the socks off most models but I could never get consistantly good flights from it. I ended up taking the gear, prop and wheel pants off it and stomping on it. I will build another one in the future from Gordon's original plans and get it under 18 grams. The interesting thing I failed to realize is that he flew it like a minature Unlimited with a P/D of 1.25...I still believe in the 8" x 1" x 3/4" prop he used.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 01, 2017, 05:00:53 PM
The weather(wo)man was right for once : 2-3 mph, GUSTING to 5 mph, bright sun, perfect field...
Embryonic Elf flew right off the board...no trimming required but only 500 winds right now. I had to add a penny to get the glide right but I did that last week in the backyard...
1/2 size Gollywock also needed a little nose weight but the climb was a nice tight cork screw. Nice glide...
1/2 size Hepcat is a little squirrely and needs the stab packed up a little but the glide is fine. I might wind up locking it down.
My Panther P-30 was scary on low turns because it just went up in a perfect pattern with a nice smooth glide so I put it back in the box...but...
The Elite Skyrocket (1945) required no adjustments, prop fold, and floated around pretty as you please, also on low turns and put it back in the box in fear of losing it before KOI...
So, all in all, I'm pleased with everything I built in the last 2 months and after I finish a new 'coupe, I'll get started on a full size Lamb's Climber which is one sweet looking beastie...with a 16" folder no less!!!


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on December 08, 2017, 12:08:03 PM
Got the Elf all framed up, just about ready to cover!  Debating whether to use viscous or fuse D/T...

Skyrocket, I'm interested in more details of the flight pattern...  I don't have any airplanes that go up in the way that you describe. I'm afraid that I will be adding down thrust unnecessarily as I trim it out, or something like that.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: Mikek on December 09, 2017, 09:15:18 AM
Just came across this thread. The Elf is very nice looking. Much more appealing than those long skinny fuselage embryos that everyone seem to be flying!


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 09, 2017, 11:40:37 AM
pburress....that is nice looking!!...yep, it does need weight up front and less incidence in the wing. I just put the wing on the fuselage and dispensed with the goal posts and came out at less than 2 degrees...maybe a viscous timer would help with the needed weight  up front. i use a fuse mounted around the CG. The flight pattern is R-R in a tight spiral. All of them so far go up this way.
mikek....glad you like it. Volare's Badaxe is pretty nice too and available for cheap. I just thought I'd build something a little different. Just keep the rear as light as you can...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: flydean1 on December 09, 2017, 05:27:36 PM
Debating whether to use viscous or fuse D/T

Easy!  Viscous.  Fuses cause fires.  Viscous changes with temp, but fuses change with relative humidity.  Choose your poison.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: FLYACE1946 on December 09, 2017, 06:50:08 PM
Flydean1 where do you fly? If a fire risk exists then go ahead and use what is allowed. Wishing you Good Luck  if you go without any dt when one is indicated.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: flydean1 on December 09, 2017, 09:59:06 PM
I NEVER fly without a DT.  Not even a hand glide.  Tracker too.  Just wanted to point out that while a fuse is slightly lighter, here in the Southeast, potential fire is ever present.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 10, 2017, 12:43:16 PM
seems like sound advice to me.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on December 10, 2017, 01:31:53 PM
I'm going with viscous timer for D/T, mounted way up front since I will likely need weight there anyway.  Fuses are common here in KS and I have airplanes with fuse D/T, but I'm not a fan of messing with the fuse, fitting a frayed end into the tube, finding a lighter, timing the light etc.  Viscous is easier and can be reset quickly. They can change with tempurature so you just need to do a couple of tests before you fly each time. I get the viscous dampers from hobbyspecialties.com and they are quite good.  The smaller one is .6 grams.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on December 10, 2017, 03:36:59 PM
Speaking of always using dethermalizers:  I am lucky enough have Jim O'Reilly in my local club.  We were at the field last spring and he was doing the initial (very short) trim flights of a new model, a Gollywock I think.  He was lighting the fuse and I remarked on it.  He said that he's lost enough airplanes to thermals, that he always lights the fuse, even on short test flights.  I asked how many models he's lost over the years.  He said that as a matter of fact he had recently did that tally in his head:  Over 45 models lost over the years! 


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: skyrocket on December 10, 2017, 06:32:13 PM
I'm thinking of retro-fitting a number of models with viscous timers but I've been using the thin Brit fuse for a while now and have rarely had a failure. I guess  the sure bet is a wing D/T or a wing streaming D/T but I've seen too many models going UP after D/T to place any bets. A bigger problem is finding something in the corn or beans without a tracker. I'd rather lose it upwards than when it's ALMOST within reach...what a silly game this is we play...but it sure beats R/C...


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on December 31, 2017, 12:36:48 AM
Finally got my Elf finished.   The through the fin pop up tail setup is borrowed from the Jim O'Reilly half sized Gollywock plans.  Gizmo Geezer nose button and 8" prop from a superior prop blank.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: Mikek on January 01, 2018, 10:20:15 AM
Nice looking model! What’s the all up weight? Does the spring provide enough tension to keep the stab from creeping upward before the line disconnects from the timer?
I’ve seen most people wrap the line around a peg or use a mouse trap type release for the pop up tail to make sure the stab stays put before fully popping up.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: steveair2 on January 01, 2018, 11:15:56 AM
Great job on your EE pburres.   I love the prop and the wheel pants.  It's just a matter of time before I build one of these.


Title: Re: Embryonic Elf
Post by: pburress on January 01, 2018, 12:18:47 PM
AUW without rubber is 22.5g.  The prop is 8", from a Superior blank obtained from Volare products.  I'll probably use 2 loops of 3/32" since that's what my other embryos use.

The spring does keep the stab down.  If it didn't I could wrap the line around the CF peg shown below the tail, like you said!

Looking forward to starting trimming this one but not today as it's currently -1 degrees F outside!