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Radio Control Forum => Micro R/C => Topic started by: RalphS on August 01, 2017, 03:40:28 PM



Title: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on August 01, 2017, 03:40:28 PM
I have started a slightly modified version for r/c.  Using some nice wood and mylar covering it shouldn't be too heavy.  (My KK Auster Arrow - rubber powered weighs 20g without rubber and I hope for something similar.)  I have a Parkzone P51 motor and 2 servo Rx/esc set of radio gear that I hope to use.  I fly a Parkzone Su 26(?) outdoors - when it is calm and don't want quite the aerobatic performance from the Fury. Has anyone done this or similar combo? 

I see that the mid winged Su 26 doesn't have any side or downthrust.  Any views on this and any other points before I get too committed.

Looking forward for comments. 


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: daveh on August 05, 2017, 03:50:21 PM
Ralph,

I've made several models using the Parkzone P51 motor with Spektrum receivers and Hyperion 240 mAh batteries. They range from a Frog Tomtit, Frog Goblin, KK Eaglet and 125% AM New Cabin Duration to a scale 17" span Sopwith Tabloid and I'm currently doing a 24" span DH Puss Moth. On all of them I've gone for a typical 2 degrees right and downthrust, which seems to work fine. They all weigh between about 65 to 85 grams. I also built a 25" span Hawker Hart, which does have a more powerful 180 size outrunner, and built it with right thrust but no downthrust and test flights have shown that it needs some.

Hope this helps somewhat.

Dave


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on August 06, 2017, 06:20:17 AM
Dave,    thanks for reply.  I am hoping to use a Rx/ESC/integral 2 servo set up with single cell lipo as used in the Parkzone models.  Hopefully this will be okay for indoors and zero wind outdoor conditions.  The Veron Fury design will be modified a bit to improve the scale effect and to allow the radio set up to be integrated.  Had a nagging thought last night - if I cover the model with silver mylar, will that blank the radio signal?  Need to do some trials I think.

The fuselage is part done.  Just have to decide whether to leave it square as Phil Smith's original or give it that lovely pear shape.  The undercarriage legs are wrongly angled, each wing panel (as drawn) has different dimensions, the tailplane is the wrong shape, the radiator box is the wrong size. Apart from that the design looks good.  I will try to post some pictures as I progress.

Ralph



Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: daveh on August 07, 2017, 05:11:45 PM
Ralph,

It sounds like you are using the same setup that I have on the models I've described and they can cope outdoors in about 10 - 12 knot winds OK - just don't let the model get downwind too much as the penetration isn't startlingly good to say the least. I once flew one of mine at OW in quite windy conditions and coming back into wind it took nearly three minutes to travel about 250 yards. Makes landing a doddle though as the groundspeed is almost zero! The only difference from the Parkzone setup I have made is to use a 240 mAh battery.

As far as the build is concerned, I'd be inclined to correct the errors you've identified in the plan unless you're making it as a homage to the Veron original.

Dave


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on September 08, 2017, 04:19:14 PM
It is some time since I started this thread. I have done some more work and can at last show some progress.
I came across an old 'Prosper' thread of the same model that seems to have petered out.(I was hoping to
see a lot more of Stephen's techniques in case I could use a few of them. What happened Stephen?)

I decided to carry on with the basic Veron design as this is not a contest model but a few changes make
it a bit more scale like and allow the radio and motor to be fitted.  I happened to look at the box and
the price sticker on the end gives an indication of how long it has been stored away in a drawer.

As I want it covered in silver mylar I made a mylar covered box with the rx inside and performed a satisfactory
range check. 

All KK and Veron biplanes use cabanes and undercarriage  made from piano wire and be tied on with thread.
As I want to finish most of the parts before they are assembled this would cause problems and I don't really
like wire bending and binding bits on with thread. So, for the cabane I first made card templates to prove the fit and
then made cores from credit card plastic with 1/32" balsa glued to both sides.  This made it much easier for me to get nice sharp
straight edges when sanded to section and it is just one piece each side. I put keys on the ends of the cabane to engage
in slots on wing centre section and the fuselage.  They will eventually be glued in place after painting.
I used the same technique for the interplane struts.  This time I used 10 thou acetate sheet as the core.
Like the cabane the "N" is all one piece and it will be more accurate than three pieces of balsa stuck together.  The Fury
has a lot of stagger and the upper and lower wings have different dihedral angles.  The struts also
have considerable lean.  I couldn't be bothered to crank up the CAD program and hand drew out the true lengths
the old way.  I was impressed to see that I could remember how to do it after about 65 years!  The fit looks ok.

Just a few more bits to make.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on September 08, 2017, 04:20:36 PM
A few more pics.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on September 08, 2017, 04:23:04 PM
And yet more pics.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Jack Plane on September 09, 2017, 03:36:31 AM
92p!  Do they have any left?

I rather like the laminated strut idea, Ralph - accurate and plenty stiff enough.

:)


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Snaky Stringer on September 09, 2017, 07:29:18 AM
I wonder if I still have the box. I have the plan and some rather tattered printed wood. I think it probably cost more than a quid, though. That one must date from the 'seventies, I suppose.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Snaky Stringer on September 09, 2017, 09:19:46 AM
Yes. I have still got the box but it has no price on it. It probably dates from the late 'eighties. A search through old Aeromodellers should provide a guide price. I wonder what the price then equates to now? You could have a reasonably good snack for a quid in those days. Or is my memory playing tricks on me?


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Bill G on September 10, 2017, 05:59:51 PM
Good use of thin clear sheet plastic. Under utilized material. I quit using light ply for micro control horns some time ago, also using thin sheet for lamination reinforcement in some places, as it's lighter and there's less stress concentration at the edges, versus adding a piece of thin ply. Glues well with a drop of thin CA also.  Been useful for twin tail linkages, without unsightly v-bend adjustment. Locate the control horn holes on the sheet plastic as close as possible to match the linkage wire bends, and then use the horn's insertion depth into the wood to precisely set the rudders parallel. Makes it easier when you only have to cut a slit for the sheet plastic to insert into, versus a slot for something thicker. 


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on September 11, 2017, 05:26:29 AM
 Been useful for twin tail linkages, without unsightly v-bend adjustment. Locate the control horn holes on the sheet plastic as close as possible to match the linkage wire bends, and then use the horn's insertion depth into the wood to precisely set the rudders parallel. Makes it easier when you only have to cut a slit for the sheet plastic to insert into, versus a slot for something thicker. 

Bill  -  nice to know that other people use this material in the same way as I am now doing.  I don't quite get the twin tail linkage idea.  A photo would be appreciated in case I do a twin tail model. I used 2 coats of very thin contact adhesive to laminate mine but glad to know that CA will work when the keys (or lugs) are fitted into the slits.  I was also thinking of using the material for the control horns.  Thanks for the tip.

Ralph


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on September 11, 2017, 02:29:40 PM
92p!  Do they have any left?

Sorry Jon - Looks like raging inflation. >:(


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Jack Plane on September 11, 2017, 02:45:26 PM
  :D


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Bill G on September 16, 2017, 01:57:43 AM
Been useful for twin tail linkages, without unsightly v-bend adjustment. Locate the control horn holes on the sheet plastic as close as possible to match the linkage wire bends, and then use the horn's insertion depth into the wood to precisely set the rudders parallel. Makes it easier when you only have to cut a slit for the sheet plastic to insert into, versus a slot for something thicker.  

Bill  -  nice to know that other people use this material in the same way as I am now doing.  I don't quite get the twin tail linkage idea.  A photo would be appreciated in case I do a twin tail model. I used 2 coats of very thin contact adhesive to laminate mine but glad to know that CA will work when the keys (or lugs) are fitted into the slits.  I was also thinking of using the material for the control horns.  Thanks for the tip.

Ralph
Here's the rudder bellcrank operated linkage for the Guillow's B25 that uses sheet plastic control horns.  The bends on the pushrod ends were placed as close as possible to the ideal placement based on the location of the control horn holes, and the insertion depth of the control horns was adjusted to set the rudders parallel.  Obviously the bends need to be placed as close to perfect as possible for ideal geometry, and so that the control horns have adequate insertion depth into the balsa.  

Flew earlier this past summer, using an aileron/rudder mix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TUVT7LJ9xk


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on September 16, 2017, 05:21:59 AM
Here's the rudder bellcrank operated linkage for the Guillow's B25 that uses sheet plastic control horns.

Thanks Bill.  Got the idea now.  I have mocked up the acetate sheet horn and it will be the material I will use on the Fury.  Nice B25.

Ralph


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on October 19, 2017, 12:04:52 PM
Bit more now done.  I can't get really interested in building at this time of the year so it is slow going.

All the bits are there now.  I have just got to apply the decals and glue it all together.  Well  -  that's the theory.

It is covered in silver mylar with the shiny side representing the natural finish alum panels and the dull side, with a splash of Tamiya silver representing the fabric covered parts.  Shiny mylar as it comes is too shiny and the wrong colour for alum so I have toned it down a bit.  It needs an artists eye to get it really right but it looks better to me than silver tissue or silver paint. As it is a semi scale model I haven't put the gun troughs in and, as yet, left off the blisters at the front end as being too difficult.   

The acetate cored struts will be glued into the slots as per BillG's recommendation. I will use RC 56 canopy glue for this.  I couldn't get on with this glue at first using the instructions on the bottle but NZ Mike's method of diluting it 50/50 with water is the answer.  I did some tests and there doesn't seem to be any loss of strength with the diluted material and it wicks into cracks and crevises very nicely.

Total weight as is, including all R/C bits, is just under 43g.
   


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on October 19, 2017, 12:06:29 PM
A few more pics.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 19, 2017, 01:41:53 PM
Looks great, Ralph! Very convincing finish. You are the silver mylar maestro!


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: F F modeller on October 19, 2017, 02:43:28 PM
... isn't that a Marvel Comics character?  ;)

Looks great Ralph .... look forward to having a look on t'big computer.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on December 02, 2017, 09:42:45 AM
Do a bit, don't like it, do it again.....  this the problem if I am building something from scratch, designing as I go along.
We have also had some reasonable weather at the end of summer/autumn so doing some flying, gardening, instead of building
took precedent.  After my last post Bill had made a polite query about the proportions of the inter-war roundels.  I had
never given them much thought but a bit of searching made it plain.  5:3:1 is the answer.  Thanks Bill.  Lurkio had come up
against lettering/number fonts on his Hurricane build.  I found the "perfect" match until I saw that the number 5 didn't
lean correctly. So I fell back on Ariel (I think) although it is a bit narrow. The number 6 on the fuselage was drawn in CAD
and I noticed for the first time that RGB colors could be entered for the fill color to give the required light blue that also
provided the blue stripe on the upper wing, when printed out on decal paper. I made the black letters/numbers from painted
decal paper, cut on the Silhouette device.(brilliant piece of kit). I added some fuselage stringers to the sides of the fuselage
to break up Phil Smith's flat side effect.  When you look at the fuselage with radiator bump you can see where the Hurricane
came from. I have got to add the struts under the tailplane and the skid and that is that.  A fun fly r/c model for calm weather.

I have had problems getting the little Parkzone receiver/esc/servo brick to function properly.  A cable just fell off the motor
(honestly) and the replacement motor slid back in it's plastic cage when fired up, mashed the plastic pinion and presumably blew
a FET, stopping the motor from working.  Andy at Micron R/C is going to "have a look at it". 

The acetate/balsa strut system works well.  The use of silver mylar - shiny side out with a dulling wash gives a good match
for the polished ali panels.  It weighs just under 43g with 78 Sq inches of wing giving a loading of .55g/sq inch.

Somewhere along the line I think I have lost a bit of dihedral - that's what stop and start does. Not a nice build - more drudge
than something being built against a schedule.  I think that I have lost interest in bi-planes.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on December 02, 2017, 09:44:06 AM
A few more pics.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: billdennis747 on December 02, 2017, 09:50:12 AM
It looks great Ralph. I couldn't pinpoint what it was that transformed it from the bog-standard Veron, but it's the side stringers.
Bill


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Konrad on December 02, 2017, 10:36:00 AM
... Not a nice build - more drudge
than something being built against a schedule.  I think that I have lost interest in bi-planes.
Well, that might be true. But the end result looks beautiful! And that it is half the weight of my P6-E is impressive.
The loss of some dihedral shouldn't be too much of a concern for indoor flights.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: MKelly on December 02, 2017, 03:27:02 PM
Your Fury looks great - definitely a machine to be proud of.

Cheers,

Mike


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Andrew Darby on December 02, 2017, 04:25:53 PM
Very nice indeed, love the finish you have achieved.

Andrew


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: danmellor on December 02, 2017, 05:32:15 PM
I didn't see this before as I don't usually look at the R/C stuff. That is superb!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Pete Fardell on December 02, 2017, 05:52:20 PM
Ditto what they said! Another lovely model, and it's amazing what you do with Mylar.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Jack Plane on December 03, 2017, 04:31:55 AM

... giving a loading of .55g/sq inch.


Impressive statistic Ralph.  And there's no evidence of 'drudgery' in the finished model, which looks fab!

Post a video for us, in due course, of some air action...  ;D


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on December 04, 2017, 11:01:59 AM
Thanks all for nice comments.  I don't understand why more scale builders don't use mylar covering.  It isn't all that difficult - although you can't print onto it so have to use decals.



Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: TheLurker on December 04, 2017, 03:44:42 PM
That is a lovely piece of work.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: F F modeller on December 04, 2017, 04:12:19 PM
Lovely work Ralph ... inspired to take the plunge some time soon with mylar


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: Balsa Ace on December 09, 2017, 07:21:09 PM
Top Notch work.

Scott


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: abl on December 13, 2017, 10:08:33 AM
That looks really good.

A.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: OZPAF on December 13, 2017, 05:46:44 PM
Great effort - flying video please. Impressive finish for that weight.

John


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on December 14, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
Thanks again Lurk, Russ, Scott, John, for nice comments.  Keep building and flying.

Great effort - flying video please. Impressive finish for that weight.

Winter has set in now.  I had intended first flights outdoors but may be some time in March if the Manchester velodrome becomes available again. Video as soon as it can get in the air.
 
As regards weight - the mylar helps. ;) also I have gone for very lightweight brushed motor/radio/servo set up that with 1S battery weighs about 14g. Airframe weight is about 29g that seems reasonable for a Veron design. There are some similar sized models on this site that have brushless motor/full range Rx and independent servos with 2S batteries that weigh twice as much as this model and fly all right.  I was trying to keep the speed down.


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: RalphS on January 28, 2018, 03:38:57 PM
All I had to do was fit the returned and repaired 3ch rx and go fly on the first sunny and dead calm day for weeks. 
Wrong.... the motor would not run after the first burst.... a bit like ic engines without the castor oil mess.  In
desperation I unwrapped a new 6 ch rx unit, connected it outside the plane and found that it would enable the motor to run okay,
so perhaps the small rx won't support the P51 motor gearbox.

The only problem was that the servo functions were now on the wrong side and the rx was physically bigger.  I stripped
the rear fuselage underside covering and re-routed the pushrods.  By the time I had connected and re-covered everything then re-programmed the tx, it was too late to get to the field.  (We can only fly safely in the mornings to avoid trees, obstacles and the sun.) 
So must wait until we get some still conditions again, but we are getting there.

Pics show the new rx in place, the bind light working, the radiator box in place, the lower cowling in place and the motor
running up - safely chocked.   


Title: Re: Veron Hawker Fury 1
Post by: OZPAF on January 28, 2018, 05:23:41 PM
That's a bit of bad luck with the smaller receiver Ralph. It sounds like you may have exceeded the current limit of the on board ESC.

Anyway it's ready and waiting now!

Happy flying and looking forward to a video if possible.

John