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Author Topic: Dumas P6-E Hawk (17.5") conversion  (Read 9140 times)
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2013, 06:15:14 PM »

Konrad,

  The O.D. solite should be heading your way by now.  It was put in the post yesterday.  Hoping I get to see this model in person one day. 

Hank
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Konrad
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« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »

Thank you Hank,
As some of you might recall it was Hank's model that inspired me to tackle this project in January of 2009.

Hank,
I have to ask about your flight profile. I see that you are using a much larger prop than I. My power system is  the 5 gram (2000 Kv) motor, 2 cell 120mAh cells and a 3x3 GWS prop. With this I have good power to fly in 8 mph winds (I can fly in 11mph wind but it isn't fun). I can loop from level flight at 3/4 throttle stick. I can fly inverted but not climb well. I can also fly knife edge but not sustain a level flight. Rolls need to be timed with a lot of forward stick of she dives for the ground.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__6312__hexTronik_5gram_Brushless_Outrunner_2000kv.html

I can't seem to perform much of a vertical line. I suspect this has to do with the rather poor dynamic thrust from that small 3x3 GWS prop. I do have what I think is pitch speed so she seems to fly very well at speed. Her trim is also very good that she flies very good at slow speeds like on an approach. It is just that as I go vertical she just kind of stops.

I'm hoping that a larger diameter prop might help with the thrust issue. I'm concerned about the amp draw.

So I'm asking how does your Hawk fly? And do you have detailed photos of your prop adaptor?
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2013, 01:30:57 PM »

Konrad,

  My P-6 flies great.  Since I went brushless i'm running the gws 4.5x3 prop.  I use the eflight 180 mah batteries which don't seem to be available any more.  I get about 3 fuselage lengths in my verticals before it stops.  It does great hammer heads and tail slides though.  Also it spins awesomely.  I haven't tried knife edge since the ailerons are so marginal.  But loops from level flight and deffinately need to carry power on landing.  i normally fly from dirt and anything less than a 3 point landing will normally result in a nose over.  My model taxis great and takes off ok, again if any dirt get's in the wheel pants over she goes.  I can fly for about 7 min and have plenty to get back to the field with.  

 Oh for the 5 gram out runner I use these prop adapeters from GWS.  If it is to big on the I.D. I "shim" it with some heat shrink.  

http://www.stevensaero.com/GWS-Rubber-Propeller-Adapter-LPS-IPS-EPS-GW-AD001-p-16617.html


  Here are some pictures from the last indoor session at the Tustin Blimp Hangar.  Hopefully we'll get access to the hangar again in the future, several modelers are working with the city to gain regular access when it becomes a park.  

Enjoy

Henry

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Konrad
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« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2013, 07:44:38 PM »

Henry,
Thanks the CARE package arrived.

I'm sorry to learn that with that large diameter prop that your P6-E doesn't have better vertical. I think mine might actually be better as a result of inertia (higher entry speed from the 3" prop spinning a bit faster).

I also need to add some power, less than a 1/4 stick, just as I start the flair if I hope to keep the tail down on landings. Otherwise my landings look like this, even on paved surfaces.
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Konrad
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« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2013, 09:22:01 PM »

Well, I flew 3 more batteries through the bird this evening. I fear I've come to the conclusion that the e-flite 120 mAh cells are just a bit to small for the 5 gram motor on the GWS 3x3 prop. I was only able to draw about 110mAh of energy before the power dropped so much that she wasn't much fun to fly. (FYI my cells are measuring around 0.043 ohms) I think I need to look at the 180 mAh cells.
 
As for flight performance, well she is fun but I can't perform a knife edge. If I try to actually get the nose up to try a level knife edge she snaps.  She can roll and loop but trying to combine both maneuvers seem to result in too much loss of airspeed and she starts to head for the ground!

I'll keep working on battery size, CofG and maybe prop size to see if I can find some more performance. I have found a bit of a warp in the wings as she snap to the left when I add a lot of up elevator command. (I'm working this out now)

While she isn't a comfortable ship she is honest. I don't think I'll fly her as much as some of my other Gummy band conversion only because she took so much more work to complete (two wings and that screaming chicken motif). 

The look on some folks face when they realize this was a Dumas conversion and not a Chinese foam job makes the effort worth it.

If I was to do it again I'd make her a full house from the start and make the fuselage out of bass wood stringers,

Again I need the thank Hank for giving me the inspiration to tackle the project.

All the best,
Konrad
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2013, 10:55:50 AM »

Konrad,

  I'm glad you're getting more flights in.  Yeah I still fly with my 120's from time to time but mostly I just fly with the 180's. I went to get some more 180s and it seems they've been replaced with the 200's.  I'll have to see how they look, i'm carrying a small amount of nose weight so it could be that with the 200's i could get rid of that and fly for even longer.  I fly my P-6 quite a bit.  One thing i've noticed is that it flies a little better in a slight breeze i'd say 3-6 mph breeze.  I think it's because i end up carrying more power but she doesn't fly as fast (into the wind that is).

  My P-26 project is currently stalled.  I'll get back to it one of these days.  For a lunch break project at work i've started the Dumas Pitt's S 1.  I think it'll make a nice model it's the same wing span as the P-6 but a much bigger model since the Pitts is so much smaller than the P-6 in real life.  I'm debating if i want to make a canopy for it or go with an open cockpit version.  Anyway, to many models not enough time.

Hank

   
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Monique
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« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2013, 11:45:37 AM »

Ha! The Pitts is my next RC attempt after the Wilga Smiley But I'll be scratch building an S2B.
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2013, 03:40:05 PM »

Monique,

  What size will your pits be?  If you make a plug for a canopy and vacuform of plunge mold one i'd be willing to buy one off you if it's close in size. 

Hank
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Monique
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« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2013, 03:47:05 PM »

Hank, it'll be 1/20th scale, can't remember what that works out to span wise at the mo. The S2B is the two seater, so the canopy is quiet a bit longer than the S1's. It's really easy to plunge mold one, so you should give it a bash!

Back to the Hawk, sorry Konrad Smiley
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Konrad
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« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2013, 06:38:03 PM »

Not a problem.
The Hawk is for all practical purposes finished. So I too am looking for another sub 18" project. I'm thinking a Dumas Stager Wing, P-26 or Guillow Stuka or Bird Dog. All have been started to some extent! Shocked.

I'm working on a bashed Guillow Duchess, and rework (hanger rash) of some RCG orphans.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
I like the idea of a four aileron ship, SE-5A or Camel come to mind.
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Konrad
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« Reply #135 on: November 28, 2015, 03:11:42 PM »

Its been 6 or 7 years that HankGBZ and myself have been messing around with these two Dumas P6-E models. Yesterday we were able to meet at our old flying grounds with both models in our hands and in flying condition. It was a pleasure to see what and how Hank had done his conversion from a rubber powered model to R/C model. And be able to compare this to how I had accomplished the conversion of the Dumas kit to R/C.  Some of the differences are that Hanks is covered in tissue and dope, mine is covered in Solite. Hank’s top wing still has some dihedral (3 or 4mm at the tips), mine is flat along the top. We both have ailerons in the top wing, mine are a bit wider at the wing root. Hank used 2 servos to actuate his ailerons while I used one. Both have the stab sized split between scale and rubber powered shown on the plans. While we both used the same motor an HK 5 gram 2000Kv we have different props Hank is using a GWS 5 x4.3, while I’m using a cut down E-Flite  4-site 130mm x 70mm with 6mm cut off the tips. Both draw about 2 amps from our cell 200mAh 30C batteries.

Hank's model looks a little more finished than mine as he has the center N brace on his inter-plane struts and his P6-E is sporting wheel strut fairings.

Now in the air there wasn’t a nickels difference between the models. The flight conditions weren’t the best, 8 mph winds and a dirt runway. But both models came off the ground in about 4 feet. Had a real good climb rate. aileron only rolls took about 2 seconds with mine having a bit faster roll rate. When adding rudder the roll rate went up to about one in .75 seconds with Hank’s being a bit faster. Straight line speed was very close with mine having a bit of an edge, probably as a result of newer batteries. Verticals were good as both models could do a nice round 15’ loop from level flight.

And what really surprised me was that both models landed like a dream, light as a feather!

Some trim numbers from my model:
CofG at the LE of the bottom wing (maybe 1mm forward)
Elevator with 2mm down trim, 7mm up & 5mm down
Ailerons 1mm down trim, 6mm up & 5mm down
Rudder 12mm each side.

While the performance is nothing like the UMX Beast. I’m so ecstatic about how these both flew (proves that it wasn’t a fluke) that I’m starting a Dumas P-26 as a follow on. It pains me, as a racer, to say this but again it looks like I’m following where Hank has lead. He is half way through a Dumas P6-E conversion himself (I plan to learn from his mistakes, but don’t tell him that)!

All the best,
Konrad
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2015, 06:34:29 PM »

Hey Konard,

    Thanks for the pic of the p-6s.  I was going to post a pic i took but the file is to large for HPA.  Also I was going to post the link over to the small flying arts for my P-26 build thread so people could see what we are talking about but looks like that's gone too.  Oh well.  I'll do a thread here when i get started on my Peashooter and i'll re post all the old pictures here at that time.

    It was cool to see the two P-6s flying at the same time and while i'm proud of mine i'm still impressed you were willing to try and tackle the "Snowy Owl" scheme.  One final not my model is covered in coverite coverlite (air span?)  not tissue.  It looks like tissue but is heavier and stronger and also probably harder to apply. 

Hank
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Konrad
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« Reply #137 on: December 08, 2015, 08:32:36 PM »

Coverite  Litspan verse Airspan I get these confused. I covered the Lady Bug in Litespan, sealed synthetic tissue (iron on and heat shrinkable). Airspan is comprable but not sealed and takes dope or paints well. So your color comes from paint?

My "Snow Owl" is all film covered Solite other than the struts, these I did use some olive drab paint.
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #138 on: December 11, 2015, 04:38:02 PM »

My P-6 is covered in light span the same as your lady bug.

Hank
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Konrad
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« Reply #139 on: December 11, 2015, 05:12:23 PM »

Thanks for letting me know.

I've always said that Light-Span had most of the preferred properties of iron film and tissue, along with most of the disadvantages of both.
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Pat Daily
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« Reply #140 on: December 18, 2015, 11:17:45 AM »

Beautiful Hawk, Konrad!  You should do the Navy version with the radial next!
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Konrad
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« Reply #141 on: December 18, 2015, 01:22:09 PM »

I alway like the idea of making a second model. You know make it better with the lessons learned.

I thought it was bad enough having to cut out 2 snow owls, but making 9 cylinders scares me even more!

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #142 on: April 09, 2016, 10:47:43 PM »

Konrad, Hank,

Really enjoyed this thread and appreciate all the information and learning you've shared.  I aspire to convert this kit (along with a couple other Diels and Golden Age Reproductions between-the-wars biplane kits) to RC using some excess Tactic/Flyzone hardware I've accumulated.  I used this gear in a Jim Longstreth Bostonian conversion and it has worked well.  I'm a pretty sedate flyer, so I'm planning to stick with the 1s power system for this model and go for the slow and light approach.

I picked up the Dumas kit from an estate sale on ebay, but unfortunately the kit had everything but the wood in it.  Would either of you happen to have a scan of the parts you could share?  Seems a shame to re-buy the kit when I've got lots of unused balsa laying around...

Thanks again for sharing your builds and appreciate any help you can offer.

Mike
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Konrad
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« Reply #143 on: April 10, 2016, 04:48:24 PM »

Sorry I don't have any scans. Truth be told you can probably loft the fuse cross section pretty close from the fuselage details shown on the plans.

I will say that on 2 cell and with a 5 gram motor she is a sedate flier. I'd think on 1 cell she would be a challenge and then be an indoor or no wind flier.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #144 on: April 12, 2016, 09:17:22 PM »

Thanks for the reply.  I ordered replacement part sheets from Dumas.  I have a 2s micro setup from the Aircore planes, but thought that might be a bit much for this ship.

Thanks again,

Mike
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