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Author Topic: W. Mooney Back Bay Bostonian  (Read 1681 times)
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Ara Dedekian
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« on: November 28, 2013, 01:14:03 PM »

A question for the Mooneyites out there.

We've been tasked with a Walt Mooney 'Back Bay Bostonian' for this winters indoor one design here in the Boston area. This is my first Mooney build and I'm not sure how to interpret the plans. They show no down or side thrust, no incidence in the wing or stab, and no provision for decalage. Only right rudder. Lincoln Ross looked at some of Mooney's other designs and found the same settings.
 
Do I build it as is, or build in the trim settings that are taught us by the experts?

Thanks
Ara Dedekian
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W. Mooney Back Bay Bostonian
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DaddyO
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 01:31:58 PM »

You'll need to add some thrust settings a least (based on the 4 or 5 bostonians I've got in the fleet) I usually fly high-wingers to the right.

If you fit a KP adjustable nose bush you can build the model as is and then adjust the thrust as required (Mine all needed 3ish degrees down and 2-5 right) Difficult to be pedantic about what you'll need because it depends on model weight (and hence power) size of hall (if indoor) and prop  Undecided

I'd also build some washin on the inner panel (although you can usually twist this in after building if it tends to spiral in).

I'd make sure the slot for the tail is a bit wider than whatever the tail thickness is to allow a bit of adjustment of incidence and add the adjustable nose bush  Cheesy

Good luck with your build - both my Mooney models fly great
Paul
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Ara Dedekian
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 02:14:20 PM »

Paul

Thanks. Will do.

Ara
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danmellor
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2013, 05:01:26 PM »

True incidence is measured on a line through the widest chord. This means a line through the centre of the LE and TE, giving you some positive incidence with the set up as shown.

Cheers,

Dan.
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David Phillips
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2013, 08:36:46 PM »

I'm having the same concerns as Ara Didekian regarding the Mooney Bellanka.  My club in Connecticut has chosen this Bostonian, 14 grams for our 2013 Armstead trophy event this spring. We usually fly to the left.  Is this the way a 14 gm. high wing indoor plane wants to fly? I know this is heavy for indoors but I think the idea was for an indoor/outdoor plane.  I probably will be flying indoors only. As Ara says, the plans show right rudder, no wash in or wash out, no thrust down or side, no decalage.  I have the "bones" already built for two of these, one that should come in around 9-10 grams, the other 14 grams ( I hope). on the lighter Bellanka I can add some nose ballast to come up to 14 grams. But before I cover with tissue, are there any changes I should make from the plan or suggestions about how I should proceed If I want to fly to the left in an approximately 30 ft high site?
Thanks,
David
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Ara Dedekian
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2013, 12:31:20 PM »



Dan, thanks for reminding me of the 'true incidence' line. The wing would then have about a 2 degree +incidence as shown on the plan. To make up for my being low on the learnng curve, I'll fashion some adjustability into the wing and proceed with the usual trim settings as suggested by Paul.
I'll also trim to fly left indoors.

Ara
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Maxout
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2013, 04:29:41 PM »

We usually fly to the left.  Is this the way a 14 gm. high wing indoor plane wants to fly? I know this is heavy for indoors but I think the idea was for an indoor/outdoor plane.  I probably will be flying indoors only. As Ara says, the plans show right rudder, no wash in or wash out, no thrust down or side, no decalage. 

Rigid models, light or not, fly best to the right. The main reason to fly left indoors is that the left wing washes in on most indoor jobs because of torque. A Bostonian, light or heavy, should fly to the right because it's rigid enough to do so. It will both track more consistently and climb more efficiently.

As for warps, thrustline, and incidence, put the CG in an efficient location (Don DeLoach's TVo formula) and then trim the glide using incidence and rudder to get a floating right glide, then use warps and thrustline to get an efficient power pattern. Expect to need around 5 degrees right, no more than 3 down, and a little washin on the right wing. Tune motor so that the model will land with about the same amount of turns remaining as the number you back off to stay out of the ceiling. For low ceiling and 14 g, this usually works out to a loop of 1/8 in the range of 20" long.
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David Phillips
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2013, 07:38:38 PM »

Thank you  Maxout for the clarification. My thinking was off regarding light and heavy.  I'm getting back into this after 25+ years.  I used to fly Peanuts at MIT without much success. In 2012 I built a  Ltd PP which flew fairly well ( 6 1/2 min.in a 30+ ft site) and to the left as expected. Although I am more interested in the lighter weight indoor planes My next plane will be a F1L.  I'm doing this Bostonian to join in the fun, my club's plane for 2013.  I'll definitely fly to the right. I can incorporate your thrust line and right wing washin advice before I cover. Your information was very useful.
David
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lincoln
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 10:07:17 PM »

Ara,

I was just talking with Herb yesterday at the club brunch. He had a couple of pointers that he discovered while working on one of these. One is that there are no ribs which line up with the fuselage longerons. I think he added a couple for more secure gluing. Another was to make a dihedral break right at those longerons instead of one in the middle. This way the wing sets flat on top of the fuselage. I suppose you could make a couple of v shaped cross pieces for where the wing goes on instead.

I think this model is actually called the Back Bay Bellanka (sic). I think he put the round windows in to suggest a Bellanca, as some of the old high wing Bellancas had that feature.

I'm thinking if I build one, I may mark it as if it was a delivery vehicle (You Buy 'Em, We Fly 'Em) for Little Stevie's Pizza.  (on Boylston St. in the Back Bay/Fenway area for many years)
http://goo.gl/maps/wy1Zq
I'll ignore the technical difficulties of delivering pizza by airplane. Also that Stevie's is less than a block outside of Back Bay, but I don't think anyone will complain. Just did a quick tour via Google and it seems that Stevie's and Daddy's Junky Music Store are the only businesses that were there when I lived in the neighborhood. And I should think Walt predated both of them. We should have given him some of that anti-aging elixer as I would have liked to meet him. I do have a short note from him somewhere about Bostonian rules.

Lincoln





P.S. for anyone who doesn't already have this design, you can find it with a search on Bellanka (with a K) on Hip Pocket.
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dorme
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 12:20:37 PM »

Lincoln, do you remember Mississippi's in the Back Bay?  Used to go there when I was at Northeastern in the late 70's.

I've been finding similar problems with some of the Bostonian designs and thus have had to mod them a bit.  It is almost like the designers were saying "Build the wing and go flying!"  The worst has been the Bostang.  Nice concept and pretty looking when done, but the drawings in plan view don't match up with the profiles.  It was solved but not before mistakes were made by not being observant enough in the beginning.

FS
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lincoln
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 03:53:39 PM »

I don't remember Mississippi's, but I don't think we tended to spend much time over towards Northeastern. There was a Thai restaurant in Copley Square, and another one on Mass Ave that we liked.

To get slightly less off topic, I flew my Guillows Javelin in the Fens. The amazing thing is I got it back, and it didn't stick in any trees. (It's a terrible place for FF.)
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Ara Dedekian
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 02:21:55 PM »

Lincoln & FS

You reminded me of my Boston Back Bay modeling experience. In 1961 I was attending Wentworth Institute, an engineering/technical school located on Huntington Ave on the edge of the Back Bay area. I was president of the model airplane club and we flew control line on thier athletic field located alongside Huntington Ave. At that time a member of the Royal Saudi family was admitted to Brigham hospital for cataract surgery. It was a huge production. He rented entire floors of hotels, brought with him his family, $$$, an enomous staff, $$$, bodyguards, more $$$, attendants, even more $$$, etc. He purchased more consumer goods and spent more money than the city could imagine. Another form of currency, I was told, was Rolex watches, used for tipping, gifts, and tokens of appreciation; many of which ended up with the hospital staff.
On one of our regular flying sessions, my classmate came over to me and reported that, "Some guy said the kings's son saw your model airplanes and wanted to know how he could get one." He told him, "Hey Pal, we're in America, there are no kings here!". The "guy" was the chauffeur for the King's son and I gave him the usual info, and the hobby shops in the area. (Lincoln, remember Marshal at Hobbytown on Tremont St?)
There were guests at my parents house that evening, one of which was a seasoned, hard core businessman with killer instincts for a deal. He regaled us all about the exploits of the Saudi visitors and the money trail they were leaving. His dilemna was that his main business was Oriental rugs, something a Saudi didn't need!
So I chimed in and told him of my experience.
Now shift over to Homer and Bart Simpson. Imagine Homer and Bart having a 'father & son moment' when Homer is trying to strangle the life out of Bart, as in, "Dowwww! I haven't slept for three days trying to think of how to sell this man something before they all leave!! He comes to you, and you let him go!!!!! You're supposed to sell him your stupid plane for $1000! You make a contract to go to Saudi Arabia to teach the son how to build!!!! Then one to teach him how to fly!!!! Then one to . . . . !!!!".
That's actually what he said, without the strangling. His outrage at my blunder was off the scale. He never did sell anything to the Royal family and sadly, died not long afterward. The cataract surgery, I believe, was successful.
My confidence and self esteem hasn't been the same since!

Ara
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dorme
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 04:39:11 PM »

Great story, Ara.  I especially like the personal connection to the Simpsons.  Have you gone to Ancestry.com to follow that link up?  I think that many of us are, at least, only a generation or two removed from them.
FS
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lincoln
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 01:48:09 AM »

Ara,

You're still alive and that sales type hasn't been for quite some time. So I think you may have made better choices. I suspect his attitude wasn't good for him.

I think Hobbytown must have closed before I got to Boston. I remember that the only hobby shop I could find in town was Eric Fuchs! Then again, I didn't look very hard. But it seems rather pathetic that a city of Boston's size couldn't do better.

Then again, I remember visiting AHC in New York once in, I think, around 1991. The retail part was small, dingy, and depressing. The one bright point was a gorgeous old towline glider hanging from the ceiling. I asked for something like it and they brought me a Great Planes Spirit! Ugh! I thought this was in 1981, but if they brought me a Spirit, it had to be 1990 or later, I think.

Lincoln

P.S. Maybe we should do a Bostonian every year. Little Fat Pot Bellied Peg Legged Tub o'Lard Speckled Bird, mostly because of the name, but it does look like a good flyer.

Of course, you already know that if it isn't required to be a Bostonian, I think it should be this monstrosity:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=6323641&d=1386647619


Lincoln & FS

       You reminded me of my Boston Back Bay modeling experience. In 1961 I was attending Wentworth Institute, an engineering/technical school located on Huntington Ave on the edge of the Back Bay area. I was president of the model airplane club and we flew control  line on thier athletic field located alongside Huntington Ave. At that time a member of the Royal Saudi family was admitted to Brigham hospital for cataract surgery. It was a huge production. He rented entire floors of hotels, brought with him his family, $$$, an enomous staff, $$$, bodyguards, more $$$, attendants, even more $$$, etc. He purchased more consumer goods and spent more money than the city could imagine. Another form of currency, I was told, was Rolex watches, used for tipping, gifts, and tokens of appreciation; many of which ended up with the hospital staff.
      On one of our regular flying sessions, my classmate came over to me and reported that, "Some guy said the kings's son saw your model airplanes and wanted to know how he could get one." He told him, "Hey Pal, we're in America, there are no kings here!". The "guy" was the chauffeur for the King's son and I gave him the usual info, and the hobby shops in the area. (Lincoln, remember Marshal at Hobbytown on Tremont St?)
      There were guests at my parents house that evening, one of which was a seasoned, hard core businessman with killer instincts for a deal. He regaled us all about the exploits of the Saudi visitors and the money trail they were leaving. His dilemna was that his main business was Oriental rugs, something a Saudi didn't need!
      So I chimed in and told him of my experience.
      Now shift over to Homer and Bart Simpson. Imagine Homer and Bart having a 'father & son moment' when Homer is trying to strangle the life out of Bart, as in, "Dowwww! I haven't slept for three days trying to think of how to sell this man something before they all leave!! He comes to you, and you let him go!!!!! You're supposed to sell him your stupid plane for $1000! You make a contract to go to Saudi Arabia to teach the son how to build!!!! Then one to teach him how to fly!!!! Then one to . . . . !!!!".
      That's actually what he said, without the strangling. His outrage at my blunder was off the scale. He never did sell anything to the Royal family and sadly, died not long afterward. The cataract surgery, I believe, was successful.
      My confidence and self esteem hasn't been the same since!

Ara
       
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Re: W. Mooney Back Bay Bostonian
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Megowcoupe
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2014, 08:23:49 PM »

Actually- there's another good reason to fly left- most of us do!  Midairs between crates flying left and crates flying right tend to be more spectacular.

I give up on why certain airplanes fly left and why some fly right.  The last two bipes I built- the Born Loser and the Be 2e I tried to fly left and had a terrible time- so I swung the rudder the other way and lo and behold- a great pattern!  In terms of low wingers- most of them fly left, but my Bellanca Jr. seems to be happier going right.  In terms of high wingers- heck they're the easiest, odds are they can go either way but most of mine I seem to trim to fly left.

I suspect that the aerodynamics of the wing is what really dictates- and whether one side has more area, different airfoil, different incidence etc.  Since we fly in circles, I've never understood the obsession to try and get things completely square.  If I want to fly RC pattern- sure.  But this stuff?  It's got to fly in a circle in a skid- why on earth is an absolutely flat wing thats identical on both right and left going to work?  The inner wing is always going to need more lift- it's traveling slower.

Also- I think it was Duke Fox that pointed out that if you want the airplane to fly in the other direction- just take the vertical stabilizer from the top of the fuse and move it to the bottom- odds are the torque effects will be reversed.  (I haven't done this- not sure I believe him.)

Sam
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Megowcoupe
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 09:22:24 AM »

OK- a few more pointers to anyone else building this airplane- the stab slot is wrong too.  The chord on both the wing and the stab shown on the fuse side view is shorter than on the building plan.  For the wing, this isn't a biggie- I'll let it stick forward some- but I had to open up the back of the fuse.  The simplest solution is to move the leading edge attach of the stab forward a bit.

Mine's come out quite light- it's at 8 grams covered and with windows but sans prop, bearing, decorations, (I'm using computer paper, so that'll add some weight) and wheels.  I'll probably add weight with the wheels- I have some of the old hardwood jobbies that weigh like 2 grams apiece.  Hopefully I'll have a crack at trimming it this Sunday- sounds like I'll see some of you at G-bury then.

Sam
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Ara Dedekian
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2014, 02:59:47 PM »

Here's my out-of-the-box attempt at this design. I've gone for full adjustability of all flying surfaces. The wing will be held on with small rubber bands (RC style) so as to be able to change the incidence. The horizontal surface is an airfoiled, all flying stab adjusted by a tab and screw. The rudder is an all flying, tapered surface also adjusted by a tab and screw. Down and side thrust shim adjustable as usual.
My hope is that I'll find the necessary parameters to get it flying and eliminate the rubber bands, tabs and screws.
So by this time it likely doesn't qualify as a Bostonian even before the fact that the tips are laminated!
It's 8.5 gms in the picture. Don't think I'll have trouble getting to the 14 gms.
I'll consider 25 - 30 sec flights a success.

Ara
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Megowcoupe
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2014, 05:24:34 PM »

Hi Ara

That's a nice looking build- but don't you think all the adjustability is a bit overkill?  You want to be able to change the angle between the wing and the stab- but you don't need to adjust both.  There are only three adjustments that count for pitch- cg, decalage, and thrust line.  Hence you only need adjustability in any two of the following: thrust line, wing incidence, and stab incidence. Having all three adjustable is kind of overkill- and Rich's airplane flew right off the boards with I think 0-0 for thrustline- and a locked up stab and wing.  He did need tailweight though- he had moved the motor peg forward.

Also- in these sizes- I doubt that airfoiling a stab or rudder does any good whatsoever- could make an argument that its just more weight.  Hopefully no one will bellyache about the laminated stuff- don't see any reason why since we've got a minimum weight.

Note- mine at this point will have locked up surfaces- I've taken to bringing a tea kettle to either warp or dewarp as necessary.

See you in a couple of weeks.

Sam
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Megowcoupe
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2014, 08:26:53 PM »

Hi Ara

Ok- we've been flying these things at Glastonbury.  Mine pretty much flew off the boards as built- I added a bit of downthrust (couple of degrees?) and some tail weight- they seem to come out nose heavy.  My best flight was 75 seconds- but some other folks matched me.  Mine has some washout in each panel.  Very steady pattern.  I'm using a loop of 3/32" a little over 2x prop/peg distance and the Igra 6" prop  The other Bostonians can get better times though- forget what Ray Harlan posted, but he's got a big leg up on everybody else...like that's surprising?  And yes- his airplane is 14 grams.


HTH

Sam
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Ara Dedekian
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 09:49:58 AM »

Sam

Ray Harlan, the greatest indoor modeler since the beginnig of time, IS BACK!!!??

Just lost my desire to complete the project.

Ara
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Megowcoupe
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2014, 10:22:12 AM »

Hi Ara

Yes, he's back, and he'll probably be at Winthrop in a couple of weeks.  At Glastonbury- it wasn't even close- any event he entered, he dominated.  His hi time with a dimey was a 141 sec!  There were contestants that in three flights didn't hit that!  I got second in dime scale and my best time was 68 sec IIRC.

However, in terms of Bostonian....He's got a Bostonian that's ballasted up to 14 grams, but its not the BBB.  The BBB is not really competitive in Bostonian- none of the top three spots at the contest were with one.  I don't know if anybody is going to break 80 seconds with one- the best time I've seen so far is 75 sec. 

So I don't think Ray is going to build a BBB- which means that you only have to compete with the rest of us turkeys....Hopefully that'll provide some incentive to finish your airplane....

Sam
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dorme
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 11:04:28 AM »

You forgot to tell him about Ray's Voisin that weighs 7 gms with a 16" ws and flies for 3 min.  After winning every event (just about) Ray's prizes of balsa sheets had him leaving with half of the Amazonian forest!  I think we all refused to help him lift the lumber into his car. Don't be depressed, Ara.  If my 25 gms Bostonian can fly for 20+secs, yours will do even better.
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Megowcoupe
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2014, 02:38:50 PM »

Hi FS

Nah- it wasn't 3 minutes- it was only over 100 seconds..... yeah- like I've been able to get any 3D airplane to do over that....but are you sure it weighed 7 grams?  I suspect it was lighter....Ray's probably going to be able to get more time out of it- he thinks it needs a better prop.

By the way- this was a Voisin Hydravion- so it got massive bonus points too-and it even looks pretty good...  He's going to be utterly unstoppable in peanut scale with this airplane indoors.

Ray told the judges that if they had to pick it up- just handle it around the engine. 

We need a new rule that if a peanut is less than 7 grams, then it gets negative bonus points....
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Ara Dedekian
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2014, 01:40:40 PM »

Just finished in all its 19.4 grams (w/o rubber) of glory! 15 hours to go 'til the first flight.
Decided to post this picture for those who took the time to make suggestions and while its still in 'show' condition.
I knew there was no hope for a competitive finished weight so I went for 'flash'. The art store array of colored chalk is so dazzeling I couldn't resist. In the local Maine vernacular, "it's some gaudy!".
As threatened, the wing, tail, and rudder are all removable and adjustable. The test glide, at 14 grams (without prop, landing gear or ballast), was impressive. Wing was 0 degrees (+1.5 degrees relative?)and stab was set at 0 degrees.
I'll post the results Sunday.

Ara
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 01:47:15 PM »

Wow Ara, your Bostonian looks great with it's fresh colours.
Good luck with the flying and keep us informed.

Roman
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