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Author Topic: Ministick and microstick - trying to get back into indoor!  (Read 15482 times)
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Olbill
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« Reply #175 on: March 16, 2018, 10:36:43 PM »

My spars are made from .025" thick stock x whatever my plan says. One of my props has bass spars and the other has bamboo spars. If you'll look up the earlier A6 threads on this site you can find a lot of info about the prop and how to use long motors.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #176 on: April 22, 2018, 11:45:39 AM »

Well the aspect ratio experiment continues Smiley I'm very happy with the 20" A6, flies really nice, as the video shows. Given that it's sturdier and lighter than I thought it would be, I decided to go 'all the way' and try a 24" A6 (24" projected, 26" flat), that seemed like the most one could get away with, that gives an AR of a whopping 19.2. Came out nice, pictures below, last photo shows that it really dwarfs the 20" version! Most surprising part is that it is underweight at 1.096 grams, so weight apparently isn't a limitation, in fact I'm going to use slightly higher density balsa for the wing when I build the next one since it needs a little extra weight anyway.

Got in some test flights last week and so far it looks good, really nice slow climb and good cruise, did 6:42, and that's with it deadsticking at 15' (and I usually get at least another minute at 15') so it needs a longer motor than the last one, probably a good sign, making some up for next week. I was worried about how much bending of the long wing would occur, but it seems fine, really starting to look like the Daedalus when flying! Now that I've built it though I think 24" is the limit, so I don't think there will be a 30 incher! Need to get some more flying time in with it, and I'm still flying the 20" version as well, so it's an A6 party the next few flying sessions, good way to end the season as I get geared up for outdoor.

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OZPAF
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« Reply #177 on: April 23, 2018, 05:35:04 AM »

Interesting experiment Larry. It does seem like the higher AR is working for you and enabling the wing to work at a higher CL without excessive drag.

It will be interesting to see how it goes against the 20" WS version.

Have fun.

John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #178 on: April 23, 2018, 02:41:05 PM »

Thanks John, it has been fun seeing aerodynamic theory in action! It's also nice that I've reached what I think is the limit because I can now settle down on that design and focus on flying it, though I'll still put up some 20" flights for comparison and I'm still experimenting with very small changes in the prop and motor. Simply limiting the wing area in A6 was a great decision because it allows some flexibility, mainly with respect to the aspect ratio, thus inviting experiments such as my 12", 16", 20", and 24" A6's!
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OZPAF
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« Reply #179 on: April 23, 2018, 09:36:58 PM »

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Simply limiting the wing area in A6 was a great decision because it allows some flexibility, mainly with respect to the aspect ratio,

Yes I agree - it seems to me a much better rules limitation than those based on wing span.

Have fun.

John
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Crossup
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« Reply #180 on: April 23, 2018, 10:33:09 PM »

Flyguy,
Any chance you would reveal some basic dimensions on your new mini? I notice the wing is mounted way forward, and that raises some interesting questions. Anyway, my Columbia got somewhat mangled by the dog and rather than build it as designed I'd like to do one like yours.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #181 on: April 23, 2018, 11:46:20 PM »

Quote
Simply limiting the wing area in A6 was a great decision because it allows some flexibility, mainly with respect to the aspect ratio,

Yes I agree - it seems to me a much better rules limitation than those based on wing span.

Have fun.

John
Yup, when the wing span is limited, the most you can do is make the chord as wide as possible, like in pennyplane and in my micro stick experiment, so there's not much else to do, apart from playing with the wingtip and stab shapes. Varying the aspect ratio is more interesting because you eventually hit a structural limit (wing bends too much) and a chord limit (1/16" square LE and TE with a say .5" chord is probably problematical! though you never know), so there's got to be an optimal point, which makes it interesting.

Flyguy,
Any chance you would reveal some basic dimensions on your new mini? I notice the wing is mounted way forward, and that raises some interesting questions. Anyway, my Columbia got somewhat mangled by the dog and rather than build it as designed I'd like to do one like yours.

I always draw up plans since that's what I actually build on, send a personal email and I can send pdf's if you want. The latest mini is the one shown in the first picture below, but I'd recommend the mini before that one, shown in the second picture. I've barely flown the new mini so I can't say much about it, I've been too focused on these behemoth A6's! And the A6's are really easy to fly, the mini's are trickier. I'd recommend the first (elliptical) mini because it has done 8 1/2 minutes in a Category 2 site (where you can't go up more than 35') so that one is at least a proven not-too-shabby flyer. I need to update the plan however because I'm using a slightly narrower prop blade and the plan also shows a balsa spar prop, but I've changed to a bass spar prop a la Stan Chilton and it's better, the bass flexes more and you need that in these low ceiling sites. However, the mini bass spar prop is more difficult - if you watch the videos you'll see that I don't accept any tail wiggle, the planes are rock steady. This is trickier to get in my experience with the mini bass spar props (it's easier for A6 because the spar is wider) - my first one wobbled a little but now I've got it down to dead smooth (you can see that in the latest A6 video where some mini footage is included).

The forward wing location arises because I always locate my wings to get a 5% constant margin of stability as described by Bud Tenny in a 69 INAV (and again in 76), I have an excel spreadsheet that does the calculation. 1969 was at the peak of my indoor contest flying and I got great results and consistency when I started using cmos so it's not surprising that I use it again now that I'm back into it many years later. Yes, I know there are updates and some terminology changes so I'm probably living in the past, but all my latest indoor planes fly great and I've had zero issues with CG location so I'm sticking with it!

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Crossup
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« Reply #182 on: April 24, 2018, 10:30:35 AM »

PM sent, your email is hidden. I am aware of the CMOS calc as its on the plans for the Columbia mini, looks like a no brainer to spend a minute to know your plane will be well behaved.

I'm going to follow your lead on the high AR A6 as I've had my suspicions that while small, there are performance advantages to be had with the heavier class planes. With the limited power of rubber, efficiency has to be a priority for maximum performance and as far as I'm concerned nothing beats the efficiency of modern gliders which are perfect examples of high ARs.
 
I just received a Harlan balsa stripper and that opens up a new world of better constructed planes which I'm anxious to build. My current Wart needs a new wing after many broken (and glued) ribs from being retrieved several times per session from the low ceiling (~20') in the site available year round as well as the huge dome with 45' I get to use 7 times a season, last meet there is this Friday.
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Flyguy
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« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2018, 05:30:26 PM »

Finally got a chance to try the 24" A6 for a second session. It was warm outside but cool and a little 'breezy' in the armory. A6-24 flies nice, I kept it safely below the rafters for several flights, but the last flight it hung on an 'invisible' thread hanging below the girders, it's always something. I was worried that the prop got tangled in the thread, but I got it back (with wing damage, but repairable), put up a couple of flights with the 20" version after that. I used a different prop and it apparently needs a longer motor, I posted the one full flight I filmed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC-fh9_Uqjc

That's probably it for indoor flying for me for awhile, I've got to start braiding up some 'huge' motors for some outdoor flying!
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LASTWOODSMAN
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« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2018, 05:47:53 PM »

THAT was one COOL video Flyguy  !!   Grin   Thanks for the flight and narration !

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Richard
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OH, I HAVE SLIPPED THE SURLY BONDS OF EARTH ... UP, UP THE LONG DELIRIOUS BURNING BLUE ... SUNWARD I'VE CLIMBED AND JOINED THE TUMBLING MIRTH OF SUN-SPLIT CLOUDS ...
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« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2018, 05:51:45 PM »

Is there still some action going on in Lakehurst? Its a cool place to fly. When I was there, there was a part of a carrier deck used in training deck guys in landings. Whatever. its so big it will suck the wind out of you. I lost an MO-1 in there someplace.
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« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2018, 06:40:07 PM »

Thanks Richard, glad you enjoyed the flight, I almost didn't bother to do any video today so I'm glad that I at least got one flight on video. I'm really happy with this plane, kind of majestic looking in flight with that long bending wing.

Crabby - I flew in Lakehurst back in the late 60's-early 70's, it's totally different from this low-ceiling stuff! I really like high-ceiling flying; Columbia, where I flew the most in the late 80's, is also over 100 feet (still exploring that, you'd think being faculty there would help!) Some of us in the club have been talking about trying to make it down (yes I know about joining the east coast indoor modelers club and getting clearance), but it takes a few hours to get to Lakehurst (bus is 2 hours) so it's a lot more travel time, but it will be an adventure to head down so... But I'm really gearing up for some outdoor right now, the part I love about rubber RC is that it's only a 5 minute walk to the field, less travel=more flying!
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« Reply #187 on: May 02, 2018, 07:38:34 PM »

Larry I relate more to you as a rubber rc guy anyway. Glad to get you back into familiar territory!
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« Reply #188 on: May 02, 2018, 08:59:38 PM »

Thanks for the video Larry - very nice flight. It was certainly courting disaster up high. It is very stable and I think you may have established a new direction for A6.
Looking forward to your outdoor RC FF.

John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #189 on: May 02, 2018, 09:21:59 PM »

Larry I relate more to you as a rubber rc guy anyway. Glad to get you back into familiar territory!

Ah that's great! Thanks for the comment, I have a KK Ace build video that I completed last October, I've been holding it until I at least get some test flights in, so hopefully that will be soon, can't be windy forever, though this has been the worst year ever. I'm about to start the next build, so the motivation helps, I need to get my butt in gear and do some outdoor building! Also got a few people in the club interested in rubber RC, plus I gave a presentation to the Skyscrapers recently and there seemed to be some interest, the owner of the flying field was there and he gave us permission to fly rubber RC in the field (gas and electric are not allowed), I think he was impressed that the planes are very light, quiet, and harmless.

Thanks for the video Larry - very nice flight. It was certainly courting disaster up high. It is very stable and I think you may have established a new direction for A6.
Looking forward to your outdoor RC FF.

John

Thanks John, I think there's something to the high AR thing, I'm impressed with some of the flying characteristics of these latest planes. I actually thought that flight was pretty safe for this site, only one touch! courting disaster is going well above the rafters, been there and done that too many times at this point, so I'm careful with the torque. There are still lots of other hanging things and I hit some weird hanging thread when I thought I was safe, of course it was the best flight of the day, before I hit the thread that is!

It will be nice to get back to outdoor, no ceiling there! and I like blasting them up there, barely got to fly the Hurricane with the new motor last year, but it really rocketed up, looking forward to getting back to it, plus checking out the Ace.
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