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Author Topic: Guillow Champ 85 full house conversion  (Read 5943 times)
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Konrad
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 11:56:56 PM »

Now I'm not trying to make excuses for my inept piloting. But I just took a close look at the receiver I was using. It was a Spektrum AR6100e firmware V1.2. This Rx is know to have a few issue. The updated V1.6 is thought to have addressed these.

Just my luck, as soon as I fix/correct these issues it starts to rain. And the forecast is for rain all week. The farmers can thank me later Roll Eyes.

If you have Spektrum equipment I recommend you spend some time on the Horizon web site reading any advisories that might apply to you equipment. It might save you some heart ache.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/articlelist/radio/
http://www.horizonhobby.com/article/1855-quickconnect-voltage-recovery-system-for-dsm2-air-receivers

All the best,
Konrad
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2014, 01:17:42 AM »

good looking out konrad.  I'm looking forward to the rain, should motivate me to build some...

Hank
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Kultrun_Flyer
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2014, 08:33:23 PM »

Hi, Konrad.
How did you arrange ailerons system to obtain differencial displacements?
When are you planning to be in the air again?
Regards,
Kultrun
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Konrad
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2014, 10:38:10 PM »

I was hoping that nobody would bring up the Champ for a while. But since you did, I have to admit I was messing around at a new flying field and ground looped her off a cliff.  Well, she wasn't at flying speed and as you might guess, she now looks much like she did when she fell out of that big redwood tree! I'll put her back together soon.

As to the ailerons I used a single center servo. I also used torsion bars to articulate them. To get the Ackerman effect (differential) I slanted the torsion arms aft about 45°. (see attached photos)
If I was to do it again I would use a dual servo set up, one servo driving each aileron.

I also discuss this a bit in this threadhttp://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=16679.50

All the best,
Konrad
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Kultrun_Flyer
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 01:41:59 PM »

Thank you, Konrad.
As always, your advise is very much appreciated.

Kultrun
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Konrad
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 01:59:20 PM »

As always it is a pleasure to help the membership rather than push product for the sponsorship, as is the case at the other deficient* sites. Here at HIP we try to be responsive to the needs of the membership. Even if I have to admit I've made a few (just a few Roll Eyes ) mistakes.

If there is anything else I can help with please ask.
Now you are aware that my advice is worth what you paid for it! Shocked

All the best,
Konrad

*They are defficent because I'm not there!  Huh
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2014, 05:36:15 AM »

I'm doing the same 24" Champ now. I'm almost done. I havent been on here in a while, but a fellow put a link on th Guillows forum, and i'm glad I came back. Alot of good info here.
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Konrad
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2014, 12:58:16 AM »

Welcome back.
I have to ask what RX brick are you using? I don't recognize it.
All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2014, 08:07:20 AM »

Its from an Ares Taylorcraft. Its the last time im using a brick. 1 because they're unreliabe, 2 they wearout quicly, and prone to shorting out, and 3They are too expensive. The Ares Taylorcraft is a trainer (flies nice too) that has potential  to upgrade to brushless engine and a clipped aileron wing . I have had no success on my conversions with the 8.5 brushed motors. just  too weak.they can power no more than a 50g plane  easily. I learnede how to fly with "foamies", and scavenge the parts, and to a degree even reverse engineer them to set up decolage , wing angle, washout, and etc. yo the Guillows planes, as they are set for rubber power. Anyway ; the Ares brick is capable of being used for a brushless motor, and an aileron servo. I expect about 5 flights before it goes bad. Thats avg. Even the Hobby Zone stuff is not reliable. I aspend way too much time on my builds to lose one to an inoperative control. I will from now on Use standard servos #g Eflite, and adapters to plug them into a light 4 channel Rx. I havent flown the upgraded Taylorcraft, but the review in MAN says it'll do 3d stuff no problem.I am an excellent builder,but not such a good pilot. I never flew with ailerons before.
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Konrad
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2015, 10:39:42 PM »

Well after 6 years or so I can report that the Guillow Champ is a great success! Last year the flight test ran into some issues with the redwood trees around here. This compounded with some pilot errors resulted in the unusual situation where there were more takeoffs than landings. As of late the number of landing are now close to the the number of takeoffs.

The good news is that the power with the old GWS 180 brushed motor in an LPS gearbox driving a GWS 5 x4.3 prop is “adequate”, to quote a Rolls-Royce engineer. She can perform large loops. She can even sustain a good long vertical with a wing over at the top from level flight. She can also fly inverted well, but to date I haven’t tried an inverted loop. Roll rate is fast once the roll gets going. The initial part of the roll is a bit slow as the adverse yaw seems prominent at first. Ailerons are rigged with about 1.5mm washout and on paper the geometry allows for 2:1 differential. With less than full aileron input it is best to added a bit of rudder at first as one initiated a turn or aileron correction. Much to my surprise she has a real strong rudder aileron (roll) coupling. Even with  wing almost flat. If I do this again I will make the wings flat (no more that 2mm dihedral under each tip).

She still shows signs of being a bit nose heavy, as she is a bit speed sensitive in pitch (nose comes up as the speed increases). And won’t snap when I mistreat her. Right now the battery is about 4mm behind the instrument panel.

High speed flight is a non-event she is a go where you point it aircraft.

Low speed flight does show some idiosyncracies. At low speed high alpha the ailerons offer almost no roll authority! In fact they induce a yaw that is counter to the desired direction. But if you are aware of this the slightest amount of rudder (coordinated rudder) will correct this adverse yaw and and start to induce the desired roll. So far the there is no indication of a tip wanting to stall at slow speed flight. This might be as a result of the ailerons rigged with 1.5mm washout. Twice I got her very slow and nose high and at high power and she didn’t snap.

But the real issues I was having were on the ground. I had a hand full trying to takeoff in a 30° cross wind. I think this could be attributed to not having adequate toe in and tight fitting wheel pants. I kept adding more and more toe in and she was responding better with each adjustment on the ground.  By the end of the day I could perform touch and goes with reasonable hope of getting back into the air.

While my Champ is nothing like Hank’s Champ it is what I was hoping for when I started this project 6 or 7 years ago. That is I wanted good vertical power and good roll authority (I wanted to have full control when inverted, and I do).

Next time out I hope to bring a DSLR (photos in this post were from my cell phone) and post some engineering data like center of gravity, all up weight and control throws.

I still have about 1/2 a dozen abandoned RCGroups orphan that need to be finished. With the success of this Champ I think I’ll get back to the Guillow like Duchess.


All the best,
Konrad
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2015, 11:03:44 AM »

Konrad,


    She looks great.  I'm slightly inspired to get mine down and restore her. Yes i'll be interested to know what your AUW is, and to see some more inflight shots. 

  Congrats again.

Hank
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Konrad
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2015, 03:32:01 PM »

Thanks.

To my eye she is looking a bit shabby, two or three moves, two or three crashes and 7 years or so of hanger rash, I'm calling her patches. I was thinking of redoing her (she flies that well) then I realize I still have 1/2 a dozen of her brethren to finish.

I can give you the AUW now, she is 136 grams with a Thunder Power 3cell 250 mAh 25C battery. Now recall that she has 3@ 4 to5 gram servos and a 6 channel RX with full size connectors. I have to say she flies well at this 136 gram weight. Not like a trainer but then I don't like how trainers fly!

The CofG is 25mm aft of the LE. With a wing chord of 90mm this places the MAC at 27%. This is fine for most pilots. But as you know I like to my models set with a CofG a bit further aft than most. Initial flight have me thinking that 30% MAC might be where I'm happiest. Recall that she is a bit speed sensitive in pitch.

As you know there is a lot of interaction with CofG and control throws. So my final radio set up will have to wait until I've done some more flight tests.  
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2015, 04:18:41 PM »

Konrad,

   136 grams isn't that bad considering mine was probably around 100-110 when i retired her that was with two 8 gram servos and a 2 cell 250 batt.  I don't know the MAC in regards to balance on mine but i believe i flew her balanced on the spar.  Keep us posted of progress.

Hank
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Konrad
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2015, 04:54:26 PM »

Good to know.
Measuring off my model the spar is 30 to 31mm aft of the leading edge. Recalling how nicely your Champ stalled it is good to know 33% Mac isn't out of the question. Now yours is a good bit lighter than mine by 25 grams. I also suspect that with the brushless 180 outrunner you also had a bit more power to the prop.

Yikes, 2 cells verses 3 cells I'd better put a current meter on my setup. Its been so long since I spec'd out this power system that I've forgotten what I was aiming for. Sub 2 amps on 3 cells should give adequate brush life. I recall I had good service from the motors driving the Lady Bug at 2 amps a motor on 3 cells.

Flight tests continue....

All the best,
Konrad
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Hank G B Z
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2015, 12:18:56 PM »

Konrad,

   I hope you don't mind but i put a link to this thread on RCG so guys that were following your original build can see the finished product. 

Hank
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Konrad
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« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2015, 01:04:22 PM »

Anything that pulls views from that disreputable (poorly managed) site is fine with me. Kind of balances out my earlier link to that thread (site). Wink

How did that thread windup in "Scratchbuilt Indoor and Micro Models"? I know poor management!

All the best,
Konrad
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Konrad
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« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2015, 10:28:07 PM »

As promised here are the rigging and control throws I use.  You will note that I rigged the ailerons up a bit (1.5mm) to give effective washout and the try to lessen the camber of the airfoils out at the tips. You will also see that I have a bit over 2:1 aileron differential. You might also notice that the elevator is rigged ever so slightly for up trim. Recall that I raised the LE of the stage to cut down the Decalage between the wing and stab. Most rubber band model have way too much decalage as this is what gives a free flight model the ability to pull pout of a dive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decalage

You might also notice that I have more down elevator that up elevator. This is to try to help give a more balanced feel between upright and inverted flight. On the rudder I have as much as I can get before hitting the elevators.

By the numbers
Ailerons 1.5 mm up rigging
14.5mm up and 6.5mm down movement

Elevator slight up rig (to aid the camber line with down force on the tail)
10mm up and 12mm down movement

Rudder + 15mm (all I can get)

Center of gravity 26 to 27mm back from LE. (Based on a 90mm chord , 29% MAC)

Hope this helps.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2016, 11:43:52 AM »

Konrad,

I know this thread is been inactive for a while, but I just wanted to take a moment and compliment you on a job well done.

I am currently building this plane for rc conversion and was following your thread on the "other " site when it all came to an end. What a bugger! I'm happy to find that you continue on this awesome forum and am looking forward to your other resurrected threads.  I have an enormous stash of guillows, Sterling, and comet kits and plans and I am happily building my way through them with most of them being built for rc conversion.  Your threads have helped a ton when it comes to figuring out the little problems that pop up from time to time.

I am trying to decide at this point if I want to muck with ailerons or not on my champ.  Have you found any reason, other than your couriosity to see how well they would work, to install ailerons on this plane or am I just as well to make it a rudder and elevator bird?

Thanks again,

Mike
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Konrad
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2016, 02:04:17 PM »

Welcome Mike,

Thank you for the kind words. This is why I take the time to post these threads. Unlike on RCGoofs HIP has no (well not by my understanding) financial concerns with the marketing of ad space. We are free to call a rose a rose here at HIP.

I think I mention if not actually shown my partner in crime HankGBZ's Champ. His is a rudder, elevator and motor model. I think he is even using a modern outrunner "180 size" motor. Both model fly well, but they are vastly different models. HankGBZ's Champ is lighter and more powerful than mine as a result it is far more forgiving and relaxing to fly. Mine can fly "more" precisely  it also opens up a much wider flight envelope (inverted flight and cross control slips). So as an experiment it was a total success. I'm really am very happy with my Champ.

But if asked which Champ I would prefer to fly it would be Hank's! I think this is because it has more power (the 180 outrunner vs a geared brushed 180 can motor).

As you mentioned I have a "few" orphans they will all have ailerons as I like the added control. If adding ailerons to these 24" to 32" models make them very oversize. This is because at these small scales they actually produce a lot of drag. So to get any rolling power they need to be larger than their larger sized model cousin's ailerons. I will also be using more power afforded by modern batteries and motors.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any questions. I and others are happy to help. But remember you get what you paid for. Roll Eyes

Also please start a build thread with you models. I for one would love to see what you are doing!

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2016, 05:42:20 PM »

Thanks for the advice Konrad.
  I have a few build threads on RCG that I would like to move over to here as well.....all of them are Sterling 24" class warbirds that will/are using the 180 brushless motors.  These stick and tissue planes are pretty addicting to convert to rc.  I don't know why....maybe it's the challenge of doing it, or maybe it's a way to finally realize a fantasy I had as a boy back in the late 70's of being able to actually control the little buggers through the air. Probably both I reckon.  Either way, I have many that I will be building and converting to rc ranging in size from the dime scale stuff up to the jumbo guillows and comet planes. The champ is up next I think to get started. I usually have several going at once so that I don't get too bored with one project. I keep revisiting them as I go and taking pics along the way so that I can put together build threads as I get enough done to be of some interest to someone.

Anyway, thanks again for the help and you'll find me chiming in on various threads asking questions here and there or showing things that I've done.

Mike
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Konrad
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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2016, 06:11:41 PM »

Sounds like you and I have much the same motivation.

All the best,
Konrad
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« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2016, 12:33:48 AM »

Low speed flight does show some idiosyncracies. At low speed high alpha the ailerons offer almost no roll authority! In fact they induce a yaw that is counter to the desired direction. But if you are aware of this the slightest amount of rudder (coordinated rudder) will correct this adverse yaw and and start to induce the desired roll. So far the there is no indication of a tip wanting to stall at slow speed flight. This might be as a result of the ailerons rigged with 1.5mm washout. Twice I got her very slow and nose high and at high power and she didn’t snap.
That's exactly my finding with a little 100gm Guillow's Cub I've been flying lately.  Beautiful flyer with the incidence properly set at 0-0, eliminating the climbing issues.  I was flying it in some wind the other day and realized that if you got into a climb with a headwind, the ailerons were much less effective.  A bit of rudder helps a lot.  The model also has scale dihedral, and I decided to see how it would turn on rudder only.  Almost treed it, before getting on the ailerons just in time.
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Konrad
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« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2016, 03:55:03 PM »

Looks fantastic. I too have a Cub that is all assembled/built, as far as construction goes, now I need to finish her. What are your engineering spec's on this CUB?

Glad to learn that your flight profile with these Guillow series 300 model matches my experience. That is to say it isn't just me! Shocked

Incidence set at 0-0, is this from the bottom of the wing or through the chord line? I too get good results with these series 300 adding a phillips entry to the airfoil and setting the wing to stab incidence at 0-0 of the bottom of the wing. With the phillips entry the wing is set effectively at a slight positive incidence
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« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2016, 12:47:31 AM »

Thanks.  The incidence is set 0-0 at the chord line.  I had been using the flat bottom, but that has proven to be still just a hair excessive on some models.  I initially thought I had actually removed too much incidence, but the stab trim is perfectly level with the CG at 25% chord.  I also flew a Sterling Fokker DV8 recently, that flies almost identically, and every bit as easy to fly.  They both have 100gm AUWs.  I'm convinced excess positive incidence is the primary cause of D8s flying poorly also.  I was convinced that I removed too much positive incidence on it also, but I wisely followed the advice of other D8 builders who learned to raise the stab front.  Another interesting detail is that the D8 flies equally as light as the Cub at a lesser 21" span with shorter chord, with a 1" smaller 4.5" prop.  Apparently the parasol wing is nearly fully effective, while the area across the fuse of a conventional wing is obviously not.  Also as you mentioned the importance of a good Phillips entry, I spend a good bit of effort sculpting LEs, consistently across the entire LE, being careful not to over sharpen toward the tips.  Well invested effort.  

Both models fly with a 2s-200 Hyperion.  The Cub uses the small digital HK servos, while the D8 uses the micro linear GoTek servos.  Fitting the HK digital servos in the Cub wing ribs was interesting, where I used wire reinforcement across the tops of the ribs, and plastic sheet laminate across the bottom of the ribs, as that's all the available thickness that was remaining.  It was a tight fit.  The model uses a micro Orange receiver and 6A Emax ESC.

The GoTek servos are not the highest quality and have to be matched, as some are slower than others, but I have yet to have one fail or stick.  I use the slower ones for rudder or elevator, concentrating on having matched aileron servos.  I've given up on Horizon micro linear servos, as the H-bridges blow if you look at them the wrong way, with the tell tale slamming to one end on power up.  The D8 uses a micro Lemon receiver, which is now a favorite, with the same Emax ESC and 10gm outrunner.  The micro bricks are a bit lighter, but you never have to worry about equipment reliability with the 6A ESCs.  I've also been using the diode BEC drop for the HK digital servos as well as micro linear servos, as they're still adequately fast and less strained.  As of yet, I've had no issue with a number of HK micro digital servos.  

The D8 video is really poor, but it basically flew hands off with one hand holding the camera.  Toward the end I did a few right hand circuits which handled equally as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjDRIw0e6Z4
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« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2016, 09:07:43 AM »

Very nice write up.

I have to ask about the diode. Is it used to drop the voltage from the BEC by 0.7V?  Many BEC actually output 5.1V so a 0.7 drop would lower the output voltage to 4.4V. I assume it is a large 2 amp diode.

Or is it a Zener diode used as a voltage reference?
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