Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
December 17, 2017, 04:38:25 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe  (Read 7277 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #150 on: October 21, 2014, 06:28:14 AM »

lol... good point!  Smiley

Decided to make tissue tubes for stab too so I can remove it. Did that real quick before going to bed last night.
Logged
Maxout
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 84
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,599


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #151 on: October 21, 2014, 08:46:19 AM »

Forgoing tightening up the slack in the film. I wanted to do the 3M77 thinned with acetone as mentioned a few posts back but thhe I tried it and it got all clumpy.

Believe it or not, some of it still dissolves. I dip a brush in that clumpy mess and just slide it along the outside of the dihedral rib. The film sticks together and stays that way. Obviously if you can get some naphtha or xylene to thin it properly, that would be even better, but the main thing is to get it finished.

Decided to make tissue tubes for stab too so I can remove it. Did that real quick before going to bed last night.

Good idea. Makes life MUCH easier.

Then I cut a piece of film, spread it on another (clean) newspaper on table (possibly wrinkle the film before spreading). When the film is smooth, carefully drop the frame on it, roll first one edge (leading or trailing, the one closer to me) to the film and press to attach, then roll the other one. The ribs may straighten lightly, but this is OK, the only place where this does not work is F1D wings with boron reinforced DH break ribs, for them a cradle is needed.

I used this method for years, mainly because I didn't think that a perfect covering job is necessary (and it's impossible to get a perfect covering job wit this method). Yeah, switching to covering with a frame using crinkled film arranged nice and tight made my planes fly far better. Covering with a frame also allow you to use a lot of film tensioning tricks, such as the ones Treger has used on his F1D's.
Logged
leop
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 138



Ignore
« Reply #152 on: October 21, 2014, 12:18:17 PM »

Okay, Joshua, what are the tensioning tricks that Treger uses?  How did you find out about the tricks.  Are they written down (video, maybe) somewhere?

LeoP
Logged
mkirda
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 12
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 610

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #153 on: October 21, 2014, 12:29:58 PM »

Spill'em, Joshua. What are these tricks? An aspiring F1D flyer wants to know.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
Logged

Maxout
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 84
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,599


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #154 on: October 21, 2014, 12:53:19 PM »

Up til this year, Treger put more tension on the film spanwise than chordwise, allowing the film to balloon in a controlled manner. From in flight photos, I assume he used more chordwise tension on the stab than the wing since it ballooned less. I've used variations on this technique, and it does work well if your model is designed in a way to take advantage of it the increase CL.

This is all academic now, since the 2014 photos appear to indicate that he's gone to a different covering strategy.
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #155 on: October 25, 2014, 10:16:45 AM »

update... did the stab dihedral last weekend. Just used cork board and some balsa pieces to hold things and glued em up.  Last pick is the stab just laying on the boom to see what it will look like.

Next post is finishing it up last night... finally...
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #156 on: October 25, 2014, 10:23:10 AM »

Last night I broke the boom off and actually took my time to do it right. Eye balling it I had an inch offset both left and up. I used one of my little balsa 1/4" blocks for offset and drew a sight line for reference to set upwards offset. First pic was my mock up from last week.

One more post after this with last nights work.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #157 on: October 25, 2014, 10:35:28 AM »

And here he is! I wonder if the tilt in the stab is too much?
I did the tissue tubes for the stab and man was that a pain but it worked. Boy did I learn a lot of what not to do on this one!  Roll Eyes

And then of course I couldn't resist trying it out. I made up a short motor and gave it a go downstairs... drum roll please... it flew! it went out of my hand and flew at at barely a walking pace nice & level and circled to the left. I was elated!!! And then I tried it again and it got a prop blade wedged on my daughters playhouse and popped a blade loose. And that was that.  Sad  I then reglued it wrong being in a hurry and totally messed the prop up. So one blade was in a totally wrong position and it wobbled so bad it would pull the back of the prop shaft out of the back of the bearing. I split it apart but now the spar is probably done. Yup, there's a couple more lessons learned. So now I have to make another prop but at least I saw it fly. Giving the time it takes me to build, there will probably be snow on the ground before I get a chance to fly it again. It was a fun couple seconds tho.  Grin

Regards
Jimmy
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Re: "Novice" Penny Plane by Cezar Banks attempted by a novice... maybe
Logged
cglynn
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 7
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 312



Ignore
« Reply #158 on: October 27, 2014, 01:57:04 PM »

Well done Jimmy.  You got her built and learned a lot on the way.  As you build more you will refine your skills, and your models and flight times will improve.  For a first effort, your LPP looks great.  Maybe a bit too much on the stab tilt (see OlBill's thread about his LPP to see how to get turn without stab tilt) but some careful twisting of the boom can fix that. 

I am looking forward to a report from your first flight in a higher ceiling site.  You will really like the model then.

I would say you are well on your way.  Keep building, keep flying, and try to make it to some contests.  Even if its just for one event, you will learn a ton, and have a good time too.
Logged
Olbill
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 53
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2,228



Ignore
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2014, 02:31:11 PM »

Well done Jimmy.  You got her built and learned a lot on the way.  As you build more you will refine your skills, and your models and flight times will improve.  For a first effort, your LPP looks great.  Maybe a bit too much on the stab tilt (see OlBill's thread about his LPP to see how to get turn without stab tilt) but some careful twisting of the boom can fix that. 

I am looking forward to a report from your first flight in a higher ceiling site.  You will really like the model then.

I would say you are well on your way.  Keep building, keep flying, and try to make it to some contests.  Even if its just for one event, you will learn a ton, and have a good time too.

I DO use stab tilt along with left rudder and left thrust. The problem with relying too much on stab tilt is that you normally don't have any at the beginning of a flight. Left thrust works better at high torque, stab tilt works better at low torque and left rudder works all the time.
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2014, 09:53:09 PM »

Thanks a ton for your encouraging words and advice guys. I will say this, the first flight in the basement it took an obvious and visible left turn so I wonder if seeing that turn in such a short distance it is turning too tight???
As it sits, stab tilt and boom offset only, no thrust.

We'll see what happens once I actually get a chance at a full flight in my church. Of course now I am waiting on either building another prop or trying to fix this one. When I split the blade apart from the spar a good amount of the softer spar went with it. I will try to fix it and see if it balances first to save time. If it doesn't work, I'll build another.

I sure did learn a bunch with this guy. I think next up for a build is Larry's Micro-stick. But I will get this guy worked out first. I will stick with this LPP until I get the hang of trimming it and getting a good flight and use this guy for R&D for learning about props & motors.

I just can not wait to see an actual flight from this guy. Oh, and I need a build a simple winding set up. Just a hook on a board to wind the motor on. I am nervous about putting a fully wound motor on this guy. I will almost always be by myself so using fixtures will be key.

Fun stuff indeed! This is exciting. Now to find more free time...  Roll Eyes

Regards,
Jimmy
Logged
cglynn
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 7
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 312



Ignore
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2014, 11:05:08 PM »

Bill, my bad.  I was under the assumption (you know what they say about those) that you used the offset wing posts and rudder for turn.  I should probably pay more attention to your plans and planes before commenting on them.

Jimmy, don't worry about loading a full motor on your LPP.  If you are flying Cat 1 (under a 25 ft ceiling) then you won't have your motor torqued up to a crazy amount.  It shouldn't be a problem.  What I would suggest is spending the hour or two to throw together a torque meter.  Bill has a thread about torque meters where he shows how to make a really good one from pop rivets, music wire, and some other bits.  He also makes a digital one that is the stuff.  Ray harlan has on his website an article on how to make one also.  It is geared towards Science Olympiad, but the LPP and SO models use similar enough motors, that you should be okay with that one.  What ever you choose to do, I would really, really strongly advise a torque meter.  If you like flying indoor even a little bit, you will want to see your timed improve.  A torque meter is a good way to do that as you can really see how the motor effects flight time.  You can sort of do this by counting turns, but the motor will stretch and counting turns just isn't accurate.  The torque meter will allow you to wind to a high but safe number of turns, back off to a desired launch torque that will just keep your model out of the ceiling, and give you a good flight.  Seriously, take the time to build one.  It doesn't even have to be calibrated, as long as it has even gradations.  You will want one eventually, and I fear your first serious flights with your LPP may end up in the ceiling and your model destroyed without one.  It can happen (ask me how I know) When I first started, I had no idea about torque or using a torque meter.  Put my first model into the lights, never to be seen again in one, or five pieces for that matter.  Since then, I fly with a torque meter and sneek up on the torque required to get to the ceiling.  Once I have that as a ballpark figure, I can play around with prop pitch, motor length, cross section, etc. and usually be safe from hanging up.  Again, build a torque meter.  Its totally worth the time spent, and once you do it, you will be glad you did.

Chris
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #162 on: October 28, 2014, 09:41:01 PM »

Thanks for the guidance Chris. I am going to take your advice and build OB's torque meter. I found the thread. It will probably be a while yet but at least it is from all simple stuff from any HS.

I will just start out very conservative with my first winds and work my way up. First build is re-doing the prop then a simple stooge/hook set up. I have to get in the air and will be on the edge of my seat until I do. 
Logged
OZPAF
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 39
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 3,599



Ignore
« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2014, 02:03:47 AM »

Jimmy I would strongly advise you to incorporate a torque meter on your wind up stooge. It would be relaively easy to incorporate in the rear anchor on the stooge.
It doesn't need to be calibrated to start with as Chris mentions. Its a long time since i flew EZE B(20+ yrs) but the torque meter (from Jim Jones) was invaluable. It won't add all that much time to your build.
That nice little model and your efforts are worth the bit of extra time.
John
Logged
cglynn
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 7
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 312



Ignore
« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2014, 09:19:26 PM »

I will totally second what John said.  Believe me, I understand wanting to fly a model that is newly built and the anticipation that goes with it.  But I really think that not building a torque meter is false economy in terms of time.  I know that you are going to wind gently at first, but you would be surprised at how quickly torque can build up on you.  The first time you wind a little to hard, and that may only be 50 more winds than a previous flight, you risk damaging or losing your model.  To me anyway, the time spent building a torque meter is way better than the time spent rebuilding a model. 

Also, I teach indoor building/flying (the basics anyway) during an afterschool enrichment program and almost won't let my students launch a flight without recording motor turns, back-off, and torque at launch.  I have a few kids showing some real potential (hopefully everyone who attends Kent will get a chance to meet them) and I want them start off with good habits.  Doing so allows for rapid scaling of the learning curve.

As Bill says, you pays your money and makes your choices, so ultimately, building and using a meter is your choice.  But it really help your flying, and potentially save your model.

Off my soapbox.

Chris
Logged
Jimmy JFlyer
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 355

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #165 on: November 01, 2014, 12:47:47 AM »

Hey guys, I really appreciate the time & effort you have thrown my way to keep me on the right track. I certainly will build a torque meter. Just will take a while. I did tonight re-build my original prop. I just grabbed my A2Z pitch gauge and Duco'd it back on in the right spot. I put 500 turns into a 20" 3/32 motor and put it on the bare motor stick with just the prop on there and held it and let the prop spin out. I was quite pleased. The heavy wobble was gone and it stayed centered in the bearing so I am good to go again. I put the wing & stab on just to look at it and check it and wouldn't ya know it, broke a spar on the stab mishandling it. Glued it back and all is well but I certainly have to get used to handling this delicate build properly.

Next up, torque meter... that’s if I can resist starting that MicroStick of Larry's.  Roll Eyes

regards,
Jimmy
Logged
DeanG
Copper Member
**

Kudos: 1
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 4



Ignore
« Reply #166 on: January 17, 2015, 02:20:20 PM »

I'm finishing up the building and packing for tomorrow's event at the national builders museum in DC.  I built a new fuselage, tail and prop for the event.  Only the wing remains the same from last year.  It is a bit heavy due to repairs.  The surfaces are covered with condenser paper.  Anyway the weights in grams are:

0.69   fuselage
0.56   tail
0.40   propeller blades
0.08   propeller hub
1.47   wing
-------------------------
3.2     Total

I tend to build heavy (my lightest A-6 to date is 1.36g) although I am working to get more skilled.  The original model flew well with very little trimming needed.

Keep up the good work.  Your model is nice looking.  Let us know how it flys.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!