Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
December 15, 2018, 04:23:27 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... 22   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 30069 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Modelace
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 765



Ignore
« Reply #175 on: June 28, 2016, 12:19:02 AM »

Quote
11's had fabric over stringers at top rear fuselage, while 17's had a wooden composite shell???

Apparently not so - I have failed to find any photographs of 11's showing fabric covered stringers. They all show a smooth top, despite many drawings not reflecting this.
Here's one at  the Tillamook Museum, with stringers.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #176 on: June 28, 2016, 01:48:20 AM »

Hi Modelace. The trouble is that is a replica and, as far as photographs of originals go, is incorrect.
Logged

It wasn't me
Mark Braunlich
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 71
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 994




Ignore
« Reply #177 on: June 28, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »

Here's fuselage of the sole remaining genuine XI.  Rear decking appears to be plywood as Rich has stated.  This Nieuport XI is in a Paris museum.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged

Mark
packardpursuit
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 842




Ignore
« Reply #178 on: June 28, 2016, 11:04:21 AM »

Thank you Mark!!! you always seem to come up with the truly good stuff.
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 94
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,392




Ignore
« Reply #179 on: June 28, 2016, 02:09:48 PM »

He does! I've got a deja vue feeling about that aircraft and indeed this whole conversation. I wonder how much, if any, of that example has been rebuilt during restoration. The ply covering was evidently quite thin and in just the occasional WW1 photo you can almost (but usually not quite) convince yourself you can see the stringers pressing through it a little.

Here are a couple of relevant crash pics I just found online. (I think you need to pay someone if you don't want the writing across the middle.)
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #180 on: June 28, 2016, 02:53:25 PM »

Hi Pete. We have indeed had this discussion before in a pre-build thread last year, but  I'm not surprised the sheeting has been queried because it is a common omission. Good to unearth more evidence though and I am always open to correction. Too late now because the sheet is glued on. Next debate is going to be the colour of the borders...
Logged

It wasn't me
packardpursuit
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 842




Ignore
« Reply #181 on: June 29, 2016, 06:50:57 AM »

I say go with "black" as it is very similar to the " natural colour" of carbon fibre! Think of your thin stab outlines!

The above photos seem to indicate that several scale drawings have, at least, gotten the 11's stringer configuration correct. Have also seen enough photos of Nieuport 16's lately, to suspect that its stringers and headrest have more in common with 17???
Logged
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3,199



Ignore
« Reply #182 on: June 29, 2016, 11:09:28 AM »

All it takes is for one person to make a mistake in the dim and distant past and it gets perpetuated for ever. Like the supposed sweepback on the Hannover Cl111. I don´t believe the tapes were black but every replica and model you see has black tapes. Why would they paint them black? A quick look at the many photos from the time show a different colour than black. Way back in this thread I thought I saw a copy of Windsock in which I believe the colour was discussed and decided to be French roundel blue. I have always been sceptical of the Windsock experts who claim to be able to identify colours from black and white photos, but the tones do seem similar to the roundels in some cases. I am away so cannot check.

I assume the model is for competition so, no stringers, ditch any photos of poor replicas that conflict, find the tape colour reference and go with that. Crack on for May 2017!
Logged
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #183 on: June 29, 2016, 11:23:21 AM »

Whilst I like the look of the black, I agree that it is a bit harsh and blue might fit better with contemporary photos. So the question becomes - do I quote from the Windsock text (French roundel blue) or refer to photos of the last remaining example (black)?
Logged

It wasn't me
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #184 on: June 29, 2016, 11:30:15 AM »

Quote
I say go with "black" as it is very similar to the " natural colour" of carbon fibre! Think of your thin stab outlines!

Except I have already laid my outlines now using laminations of a close grained veneer I happened to have. I think it is maple, which is a bit posh, innit. It certainly isn't basswood. I didn't get any ammonia either, as I had an experiment by soaking the strips in hot water (used a thermos flak) before pulling around a form, which worked a treat. May as well stick with it. When I can afford it, I'll order some carbon fibre and play with it. This will probably result in a spare set of tail surfaces!

This is the biggest tailplane I ever made! Photos shortly, if I'm happy enough with it.
Logged

It wasn't me
packardpursuit
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 842




Ignore
« Reply #185 on: June 29, 2016, 11:39:46 AM »

I'm telling you, the full scale guys face EXACTLY the same dilemma as modellers, when it comes to choosing colors and historical best guesses. etc.
Logged
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3,199



Ignore
« Reply #186 on: June 29, 2016, 12:25:52 PM »

Rich
Well what does the subject photo you have chosen look like? Choose the best match and go with whatever photos back it up. You may as well please yourself -  the marks for colour are so low, you can ignore them.
The one thing that surprises me in this discussion is the picture Mark posted of the Bebe in Paris, with black-painted taping. The French know what they are doing with restoration (as in Guynemer´s SPAD) so if black is wrong, I wonder why they did it. Surely they would not have followed some dodgy painting from 19whenever?!
Logged
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3,199



Ignore
« Reply #187 on: June 29, 2016, 01:04:10 PM »

I didn't get any ammonia either, as I had an experiment by soaking the strips in hot water (used a thermos flak) before pulling around a form, which worked a treat. May as well stick with it. When I can afford it, I'll order some carbon fibre and play with it. This will probably result in a spare set of tail surfaces!
Rich
I think water and ammonia do different things. Hot water makes the wood bendable; ammonia softens the fibres temporarily so it retains its shape and doesn´t spring back
Logged
packardpursuit
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 842




Ignore
« Reply #188 on: June 29, 2016, 01:52:41 PM »

We really need to review the Model builder article that seems to have started the "ammonia wood bending craze".  According to that source, household ammonia simply does not possess enough oomph to cause wood cells to loosen, and then reset, upon drying. I have the article in question and will dig it out, if there is interest. Some pretty amazing wood bending is possible but it is a bit more involved, and the ammonia strengths required call for a bit more care in handling.
Logged
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3,199



Ignore
« Reply #189 on: June 29, 2016, 01:59:47 PM »

Hi PP
Yes, I use it full-strength. It pongs, and it works!
I can explain the term ´pong´if needed.
Logged
Mark Braunlich
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 71
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 994




Ignore
« Reply #190 on: June 29, 2016, 07:47:33 PM »

The famous French artist Henri Farrè, commissioned to document the French air service in paintings, did several pictures of Nieuports with black outlines including this one of a N.XI or XVI of the Lafayette Escadrille diving for a strafing run (see wings and horizontal tail).  These pictures were painted during the war, not long after from memory.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged

Mark
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #191 on: June 30, 2016, 02:23:45 AM »

Thanks Mark. That sort of information kind of clinches it for me. I will have a good hard look at some photos as well. I have a little while yet before having to make the final decision...
Logged

It wasn't me
danmellor
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 53
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2,172




Ignore
« Reply #192 on: June 30, 2016, 06:56:45 PM »

Why is it that all the modelling processes that work best will either stink the house out, risk burning it down or dissolve your lungs...?

All good fun,

Dan.
Logged
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2016, 02:34:25 AM »

Yup, the appliance of science... it stinks. But it's worth it.
Logged

It wasn't me
packardpursuit
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 842




Ignore
« Reply #194 on: July 01, 2016, 11:21:41 AM »

billdennis747 stated: "All it takes is for one person to make a mistake in the dim and distant past and it gets perpetuated for ever."

So true!  The odd aileron on Fokker Dr1, comes to mind. How about the bulged nature of fuselage side stringers indicated in EVERY Sopwith Snipe drawing? I did a review of  the Datafile #46 here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2549214#post33280515   
and initial question here:  http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2541854


Do  Nieuports 23/24/27  suffer same treatment?? Just recently discovered Hawker Hurricane drawings seem to likewise show this phenomenon. Is it mass hysteria among draftsmen? or history by mass assumption???
Logged
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #195 on: July 01, 2016, 03:06:58 PM »

Tailplane. The outline is 5 laminations of hardwood veneer strips cut to 3mm widths which were wrapped around a balsa form. I wrapped sticky tape around the form to prevent unwanted stickage. The rest is 3mm sq. balsa. I just need to buy a copy of War and Peace to keep it flat or alternatively, I could use my pile of maths books that I have just finished with...
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged

It wasn't me
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #196 on: July 03, 2016, 06:31:25 AM »

While I wait for glue to dry, I thought I'd share a few pics of a couple of not yet quite finished things...

I've laminated the rudder with 5 lams of hardwood, as with the tailplane. The laminations were wrapped around a form of balsa, cut to inner profile of outline and held to it with pins and balsa chunks as required and left to dry overnight. Then the balsa form was popped out and replaced with balsa sticks.

In between glue drying sessions I have cut the parts for the tailskid - a sandwich of thin ply and balsa, plus two cheeks/fairings of balsa sanded to shape. I have rubbed a smidgen of brown acrylic paint into the skid to highlight the grain and grubbify things a bit before staining with furniture wax. The side cheeks got a 'wax only' treatment to give a subtle contrast to the main bit. I will chop out the part of the tailskid that is covered by the balsa cheeks to save a bit of unnecessary weight. The springy wire bit is currently a length of piano wire that I have flattened by giving it a jolly good beating with a hammer on my 'anvil' (metal block). It looks good, but isn't quite wide enough (I'm sure this would be wider than 12mm in full size, to prevent sinking into the mud), so I will hunt down something more suitable later. I am guessing this would have been at least 30mm wide in full size. I will lash this to the skid neatly with thread and then chuck the whole thing in my 'Ni11 small parts' box until needed.

(Alternative spring attachment photo added)
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 06:51:13 AM by Rich Moore » Logged

It wasn't me
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #197 on: July 03, 2016, 02:39:54 PM »

Tailskid. I decided to lash the metal strip to the woodwork with thread. Effective and strong as well as lightweight. Metal strip used to be a nail. I hammered it flat and bent to shape. It has been varnished to retard rust.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged

It wasn't me
Rich Moore
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 37
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,397


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #198 on: July 05, 2016, 01:55:42 AM »

Rudder. This finishes the tailset off nicely and provides an essence of Nieuport, and I am beginning to get a sense of how big this model is now. With the wheels, aluminium cowling and rotary gubbins on the front, I am feeling confident I will get it to balance without much additional ballast. In fact, I may have to be a little bit careful with the weight of the front end stuff.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
Logged

It wasn't me
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 50
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3,199



Ignore
« Reply #199 on: July 05, 2016, 02:12:41 AM »

Rich, have you got the Datafile in the Nieuport 17? It shows the tailskid fairing is 1/3 as wide as it is long.
Bill
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... 22   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!