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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 29997 times)
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #225 on: July 10, 2016, 03:49:48 PM »

Hi Rich. Avetek have gone with 2 centralised carbon tubes for the 28" Strutter wings. They resist any bowing that you get with those thin wings and you can put wire joiners into them if you want removeable wings. We used 2.5mm OD. Strong as.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #226 on: July 10, 2016, 03:55:07 PM »

Yep, don't know what I was thinking with rod. Way too thick. Been thinking in plan view too much today...
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« Reply #227 on: July 10, 2016, 04:27:48 PM »

Rich

I'm not into scale models, but I am into carbon tubes - as light as possible. If you can't get what you want in a local model shop, I've found the best value is here:  https://www.robotbirds.co.uk/default/building-materials/carbon-rod-tube-strip/carbon-tubes.html?p=2

I'm not on commission - honest  Cheesy
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #228 on: July 10, 2016, 04:41:13 PM »

I may as well share what I've been playing with today. It could work, but I am leaning towards the carbon tube for all the spanwise parts. I will tissue cover this, just to complete the sample and evaluate it. I like the capped ribs - surprisingly rigid. Using round spars wouldn't be too big a leap from this and minimising the TE and LE is in order.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #229 on: July 10, 2016, 04:42:20 PM »

Thanks again for all the invaluable input everyone.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 05:22:18 PM by Rich Moore » Logged

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packardpursuit
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« Reply #230 on: July 10, 2016, 05:37:55 PM »

I feel one of the reasons typical model structures warp under covering shrinkage is due to fact that most seldom utilize full ht spar material, the way full size practice does. Most modelers put a spar on the bottom of rib/wing section. Top of ribs above the spar is a succession of levers,  each inducing/allowing tissue to shrink within each bay. Cumulative shinkage causes wing to bow upwards. Your neat scale like example is kind of what I was thinking, although i'd go with smaller wood at both LE and TE. I also know there sometimes has to be a reasonable trade-off between building ease and handling strength, in lieu of scale like structure.  I once built Bill Stroman's 22" Taube  design with only a thread for(scalloped) TE and felt it was PLENTY strong for typical model handling.

BTW- just found this  video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DxCKW9HaH8#t=2623.6572721
which shows several shots of Nieuport XI's. Most are "natural" fabric or "yellow" finish, however there are some in camouflage. A flying shot appears @ 43:40, although the narrator seems to be suggesting  it's a Nieuport 17. Too far away to provide much useful data.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #231 on: July 11, 2016, 02:38:45 AM »

I enjoy trying to replicate the structure as closely as possible. Surface spars would look awful, so there is no choice but to use as much height as possible. To keep thickness scale only allows 5mm max depth of spar, so these need to be stiff, hence attraction of carbon tube here. The leading and trailing edges are very small sections to do in wood. In my test section above, I tried to add strength centrally in the LE (and on underside of TE) so they are not as chunky as they look. Again, carbon sounds like the way to go here. My only concern is twisting of the wing. It is going to be relying on the covering more than I'd like to resist twisting, hopefully mylar will help here. Another material I have not used yet. Learning curve is going up, up, up...
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« Reply #232 on: July 11, 2016, 05:08:29 AM »

hopefully mylar will help here.

Don't be afraid - once mastered you won't want to use anything else.
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #233 on: July 11, 2016, 09:41:09 AM »

One could use a light filliment strand to simulate the drag/anti-drag bracing of the FS wing, between the spars. Un-waxed dental floss, or silk thread....?  Fly-tying bobbins, hanging over work board end, might provide even tension in each x-ed bay, while glue sets??

In FS practice, there is very little tension on those wires.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #234 on: July 11, 2016, 11:10:15 AM »

OMG. It might come to that! I've been considering bracing the fuselage, just because I have seen a few photos where wires have been highlighted by dirt - especially where scuffed by pilot getting in/ out of cockpit. It would help stiffen the wing up, but, as you mention, it would need to be done evenly otherwise it would introduce internal stresses. I'll think about it...
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« Reply #235 on: July 11, 2016, 02:51:11 PM »

Rich our experience with the Strutter using carbon tube spars is that the wings turned out to be  very rigid.  In fact if you want to put in some washout it pays to do this at the time of building as there is no give in the carbon and no give in the cyano you will zap the joints with - it's a case of locking in what you build!   Wing construction with carbon tubes is so simple - you look like you have access to a laser cutter so you just draw/cut the spar holes, thread on your ribs and line them up carefully, jig in your washout and blast it with thin cyano.
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« Reply #236 on: July 11, 2016, 03:51:16 PM »

I believe that Nieuports probably don't need much washout, as those ailerons with inverse taper, contribute significantly to desired effect.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #237 on: July 20, 2016, 05:11:32 PM »

In a slight deviation I have been messing about with the pilot. I normally cobble something together with balsa and dress it in faux leather and this is usually effective enough, but this model is big enough to require something with more of a face to it. I thought it might be a bit of a laugh to try casting a foam one. So, here are my first ever attempts at a clay head (and shoulders). I plan to use this as a form to make a mould which can then be used to cast a foam one. Being the first attempts, they are a bit sh*t but I am encouraged to keep practicing. It is difficult to get the size right as well as getting everything in the right place. Then the neck is problematic. Good fun though. Probably not making my life easier by using air drying clay, but it's what I've got...
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« Reply #238 on: July 20, 2016, 09:19:15 PM »

Kinda looks like one of those stages of man progressions!! Grin  Eventually Homo Pilotus will appear!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #239 on: July 21, 2016, 03:30:32 AM »

I knew I'd seen him on the left before!
http://www.ysp.co.uk/whats-on/open-air/elisabeth-frink
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« Reply #240 on: July 21, 2016, 05:00:23 AM »

I thought he seemed familiar too!
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #241 on: July 21, 2016, 05:28:28 AM »

You're both wrong...
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« Reply #242 on: July 21, 2016, 05:50:13 AM »

Mint!
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Yak 52
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« Reply #243 on: July 21, 2016, 11:25:42 AM »

Hullo Rich, following your build with interest.

Some thoughts on spars: Glider construction has led the way on thin wings and stiff spars. The standard way to do it is now thin carbon caps top and bottom with balsa between forming a wide, light sheer web. For real serious strength this is then wrapped in Kevlar tow and epoxied. This produces an I-beam structure which is very stiff in bending for the weight. Torsional (twist) stiffness is increased by a sheeted d-box forward if the spar.

You wont need anything like the same stiffness but a thin (like 0.0014" or 0.007") sheet from Mike Woodhouse, cut into strips, roughened and thin CA'd top and bottom to a balsa square strip may be worth experimenting with.

Carbon tubes would work but would be heavier. The cheap pultruded stuff sold in model shops is pretty weighty. Thin walled wrapped tubes as sold for FF glider booms are stiffer and much lighter but probably way overkill. By the way Hyperflight do the pultruded carbon at a very good price: http://www.hyperflight.co.uk/products.asp?cat=Carbon+Materials&subcat=Tube different lengths to the Robotbirds but cheaper over all I think.

The advantage of tubes is that they also give good torsional stiffness without a d-box. The larger diameter the better, with thin walls for light weight.

You can also get a box-section 'tube' in carbon which might be worth a look.

But I think the lightest option would be laminating up some carbon capped balsa spars. The pic below shows a 3m hefty version but might help visualize it.


Jon

http://aviatorstudio.net/bubbledancer/large/center_7.jpg
Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build
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billdennis747
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« Reply #244 on: July 21, 2016, 12:39:51 PM »

I agree with Jon about the carbon/balsa spar. The balsa can be light wood. It does need binding (cotton/cyano with a turn every 1/2" worked for me) otherwise the carbon can pop off under stress. I made a pair of wings for a 48" Blackburn Monoplane (notorious for curling up) with these spars and they never moved.
The top wing of a Nieuport tends to stay flat anyway; the lower less so
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #245 on: July 21, 2016, 03:05:25 PM »

Stop taking the piss out of my serious modelling attempts! It's not funny and I'm really sensitive.

But, it is and I'm not, so it's OK and actually quite refreshing, so carry on.

Coming back to the wings, thanks Jon for the input. This is interesting and will be filed for future use. I am mentally committed to carbon tube spars for this one now. Despite the apparent lack of progress, I am about to start wing building. I am already hooked on carbon fibre. Seems like wonderful stuff...
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« Reply #246 on: July 21, 2016, 06:55:13 PM »

Got so carried away with all that renal humour that I forgot to say what a great idea that is to model your pilot in clay first - so much better detail than you could get with foam or balsa.  My attempts at carving pilots in those media have always looked like something that came out your nose!  On the subject of clay Rich Weber pointed me in the direction of a super light modelling material called Hearty Clay.  I used this to do the cockpit coaming on the Bristol Scout.  There are some pictures of it on the build thread for that model - this would be perfect for the Nieuport
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« Reply #247 on: July 21, 2016, 07:34:10 PM »

As a more sensitive type, I have found that 'Super Sculpey' has given me decent results without too many tears  Smiley
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billdennis747
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« Reply #248 on: July 22, 2016, 02:31:04 AM »

Rich, I'm glad you have been able to shrug off the pathetic criticisms of your pilot and are going to carry on undismayed, treating them with the contempt they deserve.
I have only ever made one pilot - the Doug McHard one from his SE5a. By the time I had given him a scarf round his mouth, and goggles, he didn't need (or have) a face.  He has been used relentlessly in many models, some way out of his scale.
Anyway, something stirred my memory and I just found my copy of WW1 Aeroplanes  Scale Special   No. 84  April 1981.  Many very useful articles, including the use of FIMO clay (which I see comes in 'lightweight') to make all manner of details, including pilots' heads in extraordinary detail.
There is also a description of how to etch a 'Spandau' barrel on litho plate, using muriatic acid. I have no idea what that is (and shall be googling shortly)  but I bet I won't be able to get it at Boots the Chemist.
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« Reply #249 on: July 22, 2016, 03:02:01 AM »

Quote
muriatic acid

Bill, from memory it's a dilute form of one of the 'usual' acids, hydrochloric or suphuric, as I needed to get some to make up a chemical solution for irridising hot glass.
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