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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 25090 times)
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billdennis747
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« Reply #250 on: July 22, 2016, 03:26:08 AM »

Thanks Peter. Where/how did you get it? Or will Coca Cola do the trick?
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Mefot
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« Reply #251 on: July 22, 2016, 04:26:02 AM »

It's sold in the UK as brick and mortar cleaner Bill. There is also something called spirit of salts which, I think, is a bit stronger  Smiley
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PeeTee
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« Reply #252 on: July 22, 2016, 04:41:41 AM »

Bill

After posting the last message I looked it up, and as Mefot says, another name is spirits of salt which used to be available at most hardware stores. I bought some years ago to use for de-rusting seams on an MGB. If all else fails, go to France where such products are widely available in the supermarkets (or ask Ivan if he's going this year Cheesy)

Peter

ps waiting for coca cola to do the trick is probably a forlorn hope!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #253 on: July 22, 2016, 05:04:55 AM »


ps waiting for coca cola to do the trick is probably a forlorn hope!
Well, if it is capable of bringing down Spitfires, I'm sure it could eat through litho plate!
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Pinto
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« Reply #254 on: July 22, 2016, 07:42:02 AM »

If you ever need any dodgy chemicals just look on ebay.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #255 on: July 22, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »

Muriatic acid is usually a low grade form of hydrochloric acid sold for various purposes such as a swimming pool additive or for etching cement or concrete to prepare for painting.  I have used it to make model parts from litho-plate by first coating the aluminum (American spelling) with wax and then scribing through the wax to expose the aluminum.  The part is floated on the acid which etches the aluminum.  Have made plate fittings for a 1:12 S.E.5a in this manner for example.    Muriatic acid should be available in any hardware store or where you'd buy pool supplies or paint.
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Mark
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« Reply #256 on: July 22, 2016, 01:09:11 PM »

Convenient small quantities  of liquid muratic acid  can be found where soldering supplies are sold. It is commonly used as a " flux".

It is quite reasonably priced in 1 gallon plastic bottle, but storage can be problematic and wreak havoc with other stored materials. Ask me how I know.

Perhaps this link is appropo for the pilot bust sculpting?  http://time.com/3773304/scary-lucille-ball-statue/ Roll Eyes
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PeeTee
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« Reply #257 on: July 22, 2016, 01:32:55 PM »

Bill

Homebase sells it here: http://www.homebase.co.uk/en/homebaseuk/challs-international-max-spirits-of-salt---max-strength-275496, so I suspect most DIY sheds will sell it.

Peter
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billdennis747
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« Reply #258 on: July 22, 2016, 02:46:06 PM »

Thanks Peter - I'll get some tomorrow
Rich - back to the thread!
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #259 on: July 23, 2016, 04:15:58 AM »

As ever, all sorts of useful information is forthcoming. I'd be most interested to see some results of this etching with brick acid. Sounds like another fun technique to try.

Had a chaotic week, but managed to get some laser time yesterday so I hope to get on with something more structural shortly.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #260 on: July 23, 2016, 05:37:54 PM »

I'd be most interested to see some results of this etching with brick acid. Sounds like another fun technique to try.

Here's a photo of a couple of the parts made with muriatic acid and .005" aluminum litho-plate.  They are the underside front panel (under the engine)  and one of the two fittings at the bottom side of the radiator for a Wolseley Viper engined S.E.5a in 1:12 scale.  Similar parts made for this unfinished project have been consumed by another project.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #261 on: July 23, 2016, 06:27:35 PM »

Thanks Mark. Looks good.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #262 on: July 23, 2016, 06:35:31 PM »

Made a jig to cap the ribs. Bolts locate in spar holes and rib is packed up to ensure central position on capping.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #263 on: July 24, 2016, 03:08:07 AM »

That looks really clever Rich. How are you going to attach the LE and TE? Normally they are attached first, then the capstrips go top and bottom to lock in place.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #264 on: July 24, 2016, 06:24:22 AM »

Hi Bill. It works but it is slow. However, I am not yet fully stocked with what I need to complete the wings, so I have time. When the ribs are all made up I will stack them (bolts through spar holes to hold them together) and profile the ends accordingly.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #265 on: July 27, 2016, 04:34:35 PM »

In between rib building, I have been thinking about the wing attachment/ struts. The Bebe is tricky in that it is devoid of cabane bracing. This makes it difficult to make a strong and stiff cabane structure. So I bent some wire for the struts that would allow movement upon impact. I posted pics a few posts ago but I had forgotten to put the aluminium sleeving over them, and then I decided I would re-approach this idea. Instead of a front and back, I am going to bend two sides each with a front and back strut. I remembered the aluminium sleeve but forgot one of the Ali tubes on the first one (duh). These will be threaded and epoxied to fuselage. An alternative would be strong rigid struts but I'm sure these would break all the time. The rear strut wires will slide into rear wing spar. The front of the wing will be held with a wire dowel in the front spar and I may need a rubber band here. The front of the wing will be held down to front struts using small L-shaped wire hooks that will allow wings to separate on impact.
Some info suggests the cabane struts are wooden but the examples on the Bebe in Paris Air museum look like aluminium to me. I will make the brackets from painted paper later in the build.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #266 on: July 29, 2016, 06:56:29 AM »

And another thing...Nieuport 11 wing tips are drawn with a taper on all the 3 views I've got. However, on the Macchi construction drawing they are drawn square. A careful study of photographs shows that they tend to appear tapered, but this, I think, is a lot to do with perspective, the shape of the ailerons and the curved upper surface as it comes down to the trailing edge 'corner', as much as imagination/ expectation. Whilst a tapered tip looks nice, it doesn't seem correct, so, unless there were variations, I need to keep imy tips square.

I have attached 4xphotos of the same aeroplane. 2x that look tapered, 2x that look square. 5th is the Macchi drawing for reference.

Might as well throw the 3 views away...
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #267 on: July 29, 2016, 11:42:02 AM »

Interesting discovery about the tips Rich.  I think the tips ARE parallel to the ribs and that means the vast majority of three-views and model plans are probably wrong.  Here are a couple more views of the Paris N.XI showing tips from different angles.   Note the incorrect painting of the starboard side of the rudder IMO.
 
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billdennis747
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« Reply #268 on: July 29, 2016, 12:09:51 PM »

As I understand it, the Paris example is the only original, and I would  only take notice of that, and WW1 photos. There are several on Google that I think clearly show a small taper. You need to find ones that show the end rib. The Paris 11 is hanging up so we need a picture from directly underneath. but this the nearest I found.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/landoni/2380941950/in/photostream/
Seems conclusive to me
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ROGER WILLIS
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« Reply #269 on: July 29, 2016, 12:21:26 PM »

Rich.... I have arrived very late on your build project, but have attempted to read  everything.  I am in FAC Squadron 20 [ the OASIS FLYERS ] in Murrieta California.  Our FAC event, WW I Combat and our FAC Rubber Scale event, require very light building in order to be competitive in the air. I was wondering how much your build weighs in grams and what the wingspan is..Huh  Roger
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Roger Willis
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« Reply #270 on: July 29, 2016, 01:15:11 PM »

What...??  Square/or parallel to rib  wing tips?    Next thing you know, somebody will probably contend SE5 had pointier wing tips than SE5a! :

Remember: 1/2 truths are still 100% factual! Grin
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #271 on: July 29, 2016, 01:48:29 PM »

Whoops, I meant to repeat this image of the macchi drawings. Plus another view of the Paris Ni11 looking very parallel/ square to end rib.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #272 on: July 29, 2016, 02:12:47 PM »

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I was wondering how much your build weighs in grams and what the wingspan is..Huh  Roger

Hi Roger, Wingspan is 942mm (37"). I haven't bothered weighing anything yet, but this will probably best be measured in kilo's by the time it is finished. It wouldn't compete well in your FAC Rubber Scale events as, duration-wise, my target is only 30 seconds. Any more than that probably means I've forgotten something or not used enough paint.
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Prosper
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« Reply #273 on: July 30, 2016, 01:09:51 PM »

Fab thread Rich. Love the rib-capping jig, but the Schrödinger-style discovery that wingtips can be swept and parallel at the same time is amazing.

Quote from: Rich Moore
Might as well throw the 3 views away...
The first essential step in scale modelling.

Stephen.
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #274 on: July 30, 2016, 04:16:29 PM »

With absolute confidence I'm coming down squarely on the side of Possible  parallel, highly probable wing tip theory.  My hunch is the Macchi drawing is not incorrect!!! Roll Eyes
 
Went back thru photos on this thread and am starting to question the authenticity of photo showing underside of flying aircraft. See post #5.  

In a similar revelation,( important only to guys like us?) I was surprised to find Sopwith Pup fin is not straight on it's bottom member, but has a slight "s" curve, according to original Pup parts/assembly drawings (available this forum- see Builder's Plan Gallery).

I suspect we are seeing incorrect Nieuport 11 tips in scale drawings because of mass hysterical historical perception, once again. It's pandemic in written history too!
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