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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 24228 times)
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #300 on: August 01, 2016, 11:17:43 AM »

Hee hee, For me, it's the other way. Parallel to the end rib for me. I've looked long and hard at that 2nd pic #287 (and other 'taperish' shots) but, although I agree that it looks tapered, perspective and angles are funny things. I think the view has to be completely perpendicular to the wing tip to see the 'parallelness'. I haven't yet seen such a straight on view that says tapered.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #301 on: August 01, 2016, 12:34:57 PM »

I've become slightly obsessed with this question. Thanks Rich! (I think)
This drawing shows a slight taper, but not nearly as much as some others. It's from here: http://inter.action.free.fr/faq/faq.html
It's by Ian Stair, yet not the same as his drawing in the Windsock Datafile. On the notes he says this is a Macchi example. The front wing corners are less rounded, which is perhaps what makes the taper look less pronounced. On the datafile drawing he notes that the corner radi were indeed smaller on some N.11s and 16s.
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cvasecuk
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« Reply #302 on: August 01, 2016, 01:18:43 PM »

Hi Rich
I've just looked at the Harborough publication "Fighter Aircraft Of The 1914-1918 War". The 3-views of Nieuport 10/12 and Nieuport 11/16 both show tapered tips but in my opinion all 10 photos look parallel!!
Ron
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #303 on: August 02, 2016, 10:20:36 AM »

OK, so let's ask some other questions: Where did all the extra ribs (Ian stair's drawing)  come from? Photos (at least the ones we've considered here) clearly/consistently  show less. Did Mr. Stair, who has made his considerable reputation on developing scale drawings from photos, NOT look at photos of the Nieu. 11 wings, in this particular case??? Does the number of ribs affect the "look of the tip"? I see Stair's last full  rib considerably farther out than photos suggest.

What does all the tip shape controversy do for given dimensions, such as span???

Please know I'm not attacking Ian Stair (IMHO, one of the greats in SCALE DRAWINGS), I'm simply attempting to discuss  apparent pros/cons of a single example of what is basically a "consumer item".
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #304 on: August 02, 2016, 01:32:40 PM »

Must admit I didn't notice the extra rib on each side. It is not the only drawing out there to feature them. Two possible solutions:
1. Maybe some (Macchi?) Nieuports really did have more ribs. This seems unlikely but I haven't found an Italian Bebe photo yet where I can count them with certainty. Must be one out there though.
Or
2. Ian Stair got it wrong. He may have realised this himself as on his drawing in the Windsock Datafile the rib count is reduced and they DO match the Paris Nieuport photos I think (23 top wing ribs inc. the wingtips), although interestingly there are still extra ribs on this Ray Rimmel colour top view in the same publication.

(Sorry Rich, I think I'm just clouding the waters now!)
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billdennis747
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« Reply #305 on: August 02, 2016, 01:38:59 PM »

All scale drawings - including those of Ian Stair - should be checked carefully.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #306 on: August 02, 2016, 01:54:38 PM »

The macchi drawings show the same number of ribs as the Paris example. According to these construction drawings, the last two ribs are spaced slightly further apart than the rest. If Ian Stairs assumed all rib spacing was the same he'd get an extra rib near the wing tip. Perhaps this is what happened?

Don't worry about clouding the issue. Only good stuff has come out of all this discussion.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 02:44:11 PM by Rich Moore » Logged

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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #307 on: August 02, 2016, 02:04:30 PM »

That sounds a likely theory. My own Nieuport 11 has too many ribs then, because I took the spacings from David Deadman's fine Telco plan which was based on the same Ian Stair drawing. Ian Stair's obviously a very fine draughtsman so it is slightly strange that he got something as basic as the number of ribs wrong. I suppose we need to remember that until quite recently people had to do the best they could with the info they had, and couldn't spend a few hours googling around for more pictures. In the absence of clear photos (and on most Bebe photos you can't see the ribs much) they just had to make a best guess.

 (On that subject, I think the illustrators for the Kenneth Munson books did a lot of guessing. Even with the internet it's almost impossible to find any photos to back up the beautiful schemes depicted!)
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #308 on: August 02, 2016, 02:20:19 PM »

We are spoilt for info these days. He will have had limited resources and possibly a deadline to work to. Plus his drawing looks about right, which is often the decider. I don't imagine for a minute I'll get it all right, but I'm trying. Ultimately, if it looks like a Nieuport 11, I'll be happy. If others agree (especially the judges), then I'll be more so.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #309 on: August 03, 2016, 01:05:35 PM »

Covered the 'test section'. Tried to add a little texture with pva stitches and tissue tib tape. Doesn't really show up in photo, but I hope to pick it up with some subtle grime later. I quite like the black trim, even though some argue it was unlikely to have been black. We had a discussion about this earlier in the thread. Photos show it was not applied perfectly neatly, but I may have to be a little neater than this quick, rough attempt.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #310 on: August 03, 2016, 01:58:02 PM »

I just came across Windsock International  1989  Vol 5 No 3. with a discussion of these borders. They were roughly painted on in the factory and the numerous photos of aircraft in the field, as opposed to restorations hanging up in museums, show that whatever colour they were, it wasn't black. French roundel blue was suggested as most likely
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #311 on: August 03, 2016, 02:59:08 PM »

Yep. I put black on because it was handy. It's another one of those decisions. As it is on the Paris example, it looks a bit new. Borders on B&W photos tend to look a bit faded. Could be that they are blue, could be faded black. Models I have seen with blue trim look good but the colour needs to be less solid than this sample. I need to look back through this thread to revisit the discussion we had already. I think I was deciding on blue then...
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #312 on: August 03, 2016, 03:10:03 PM »

Post #190 makes a useful point. Contemporary art showing black outlines is quite convincing. Also, the black outlines on the Paris example are most likely well researched. I like the black but would like to make them less solid. I'll have a play.
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packardpursuit
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« Reply #313 on: August 03, 2016, 04:32:29 PM »

Those that had macchi wing tips obviously had blue fuselag stripe, and those with tapered tips had blue, while those with combination tips had some other color, as yet unknown. I am the authority and you can take that to the bank! Roll Eyes

In the art world, many artists never use a pure lamp black, straight from a tube, but prefer to mix a gray brown, possibly with blues  to represent extremely dark values. I seem to recall an art instructor once saying "black" does not truly exist.

From your photo above, I think your observations could very well be correct: IE a roundel blue. A light French Kakki could also be plausible.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #314 on: August 03, 2016, 04:37:29 PM »

It's one of those things I won't decide on until the moment before I actually paint them. I was really just playing around with my wing sample while I wait for Mike Woodhouse to surface so I can get my trailing edges! I think he might be competing somewhere or on holiday...
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #315 on: August 03, 2016, 05:57:46 PM »

You might have seen the discussion on this issue here: http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34542
Not sure it adds much; lots of talk of blue though and someone does say (final comment on p4) that the Paris example's outlines are brown rather than black. That comment was made in 2008 though and I don't know how recently it was last repainted. They certainly look black now.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #316 on: August 04, 2016, 04:03:53 AM »

Thanks Pete. It sounds like I can paint the borders black, blue or brown and no one can prove me wrong.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #317 on: August 07, 2016, 03:24:17 PM »

Grabbing little bits of time here and there, I have added a bit of detail in case anyone looks in the cockpit. Not completely accurate but a believable authenticity is aimed for here as the pilot will be in the way. Hopefully these bits won't get knocked off. I still need an altimeter and perhaps a compass. These can be attached to the curved cross bar.

Pilot fits. I think I'll give him hands clinging onto the top part of the joystick. He ought to have straps, but his coat gets in the way.
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John Webster
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« Reply #318 on: August 10, 2016, 01:26:32 AM »

Shoulder harness didn't become common until the late 1930s.

Thank you for putting a lot of effort into researching this airplane.
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« Reply #319 on: August 14, 2016, 05:13:56 PM »

OH-OH! Just noticed something.

Stair's drawing shows forward cabaine strut attaching directly below, and to, the upper wing spar. However, photo's seem to indicate the struts attach to aft face of the spar.

This moves the wing farther forward than Stair shows it, but it does offer  space for a socket (vertical plug in?) wing mount. Will check the Macchi drawing against Nieuport 17 (Rosendall).
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #320 on: August 14, 2016, 06:59:56 PM »

Yep. It is shown clearly in first pic.

I have returned from a wee holiday to find my parcel from Mike Woodhouse on the doormat with some carbon fibre trailing edges and other bits and bobs in it. So, I am getting close to actually building something at last. With the wings being a bit on the big side and my workshop space being a bit on the small side I have moved back into the kitchen, much to the delight of Mrs M. Just to get started, I have made a fixture to laminate the wing tips. These need to follow the upper surface of the wing. I may end up infilling the space between the end rib and the tips but I've been sitting on the beach daydreaming about seeing the structure floating overhead and my dreams didn't have any 'solid' bits in the wings. Let's see if I can get away with it.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #321 on: August 16, 2016, 06:32:22 AM »

Whilst (parallel!) wingtip no.1 is drying on it's fixture I have prepared the starboard ribs and slid them in their approximate positions on the two carbon spars. I have raised the construction off the board and will use the spars almost like a build jig because the undercamber on this wing would make it awkward to build flat on the board. The two spars give me a flat plane to work to as good as any.

The cutouts on the ribs don't really gain me anything, but they look nice. I really ought to not bother doing this in future but I can't seem to resist it. I am going with 1mm carbon le and a ridiculously thin carbon te as recommended by Bill Dennis, but this will be used in conjunction with a balsa strip to give me prototypical width and something more to stuck things to. The aileron is going to be built onto this structure and separated later. The te of the aileron projects down as it extends; another reason for raising the build off the deck.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #322 on: August 16, 2016, 04:34:59 PM »

Cor, I've never put this much work into a wing before. Slow progress but I have managed to find a decent block of time today, so I have managed to glue more than one bit of wood together. Waiting now for the laminated cutaway trim to dry. I normally build with pva but I have used thin cyano to penetrate the rib/ spar joints. Most of this wing assembly is cyano'ed. Tip is ready to go on...
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Pat D
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« Reply #323 on: August 16, 2016, 04:48:43 PM »

Lovely work Rich !

Really enjoying this build

Pat
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #324 on: August 17, 2016, 06:07:40 AM »

Cheers Pat.

Stuck the wing tip on. I am quite pleased with it. 14 grams ( seems a bit heavy, but that'll be the carbon spars) and still a wee bit to add, but it is a large area of wing and it is nice and stiff. I have slid it onto the fuselage to have a sneaky peak at the overall size and look of this model and I liked what I saw...
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