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Author Topic: Nieuport 11 Bebe - Build  (Read 16110 times)
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FFmodeller
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« Reply #350 on: February 04, 2017, 04:34:51 PM »

Looking forward to seeing this Rich ...outdoor Nats in May?
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #351 on: February 05, 2017, 03:05:06 PM »

Hi Russ, that's the plan.
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FFmodeller
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« Reply #352 on: February 05, 2017, 03:23:42 PM »

Were it my plan .... I would worry. It's your plan though, so I look forward to it!
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #353 on: February 12, 2017, 04:22:11 PM »

Not much to show, but I didn't like the engine that I pulled out of the bits box and decided to redo it. New crankcase faceplate is shown here. I have decided to definitely do a spinning engine again (just because), so the crankcase will be permanently fixed to the prop shaft. The prop will be able to freewheel though and will be engaged to the prop shaft at the rear of the prop to allow it to be replaced easily with a scale prop for static judging. One thing worries me and that is my (lack of) success at soldering to prop shafts - any tips out there?
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« Reply #354 on: February 12, 2017, 06:04:10 PM »

it's hard to beat the age old advice of ensuring the joints are clean, jig well to avoid movement and use enough heat. It's best to err on the side of too much heat than the opposite.
I hope this helps.
John
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #355 on: February 12, 2017, 07:11:08 PM »

totally agree with John.  I use a good liquid flux - Duzall or similar.  'Tin' the bit with solder and shake off the excess.  If using an electric iron use a big tip that gets really hot or better yet a gas heated one that stores plenty of heat.  Hit the joint with plenty of heat and the heat is right when the joint will melt the solder.  That's why the big tip - so you can hit it hard and fast and get the job done before you start to burn or melt other bits!  Rich, the prop work I did recently on the Avetek Pilatus PC9 and earlier on my 1/12 Bristol Scout would be really relevant to your project.  There is a link to the Bristol from the PC9 thread and heaps of pix of how I did it all.  I've actually just been silver soldering up 8 and 10 SWG undercarriage and cabane structures for the two 1/5 Tiger Moths Gwyn and I are building - very satisfying work

Cheers,Mike
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Prosper
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« Reply #356 on: February 13, 2017, 05:02:58 AM »

Hullo Rich, yeah, the old advice plus flux, like the Antipodeans say. I always had trouble with electronics soldering and this carried through when I started aeromodelling. I knew and used the advice - cleanliness, heat - I used 'multicore resin solder', freshly abraded metal treated with solvent and acid, brought the solder into contact then applied the iron, kept the tip tinned and free from oxidised gunk - every damn thing, even wore gloves. My results were completely hit-and-miss and definitely not safe for critical jobs like propeller freewheels.

The big revelation came when in a kind of satirical 'hit it with a bigger hammer' type of gesture I applied some flux from a giant tub of plumber's stuff. Instant success Smiley.

My aeromodelling soldering is mostly on piano wire, from 0.8 to 1.2mm diameter. I use a 25 watt iron with a sharp tip. I blamed this pore old iron for many years for my troubles but I'm now surprised by the size of jobs it can manage. Now I usually omit the acid stage (a relief), and can do tricky work that I never thought possible before. Multicore solder is a treacherous swizz I reckon. A tiny smear of flux is the magic ingredient. 

Stephen.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #357 on: February 13, 2017, 05:42:38 AM »

Thanks all. I need to practice this. Not being able to completely trust my soldering attempts in the past has prevented me from building neat freewheeling assemblies. Mike - your Scout and PC9 front ends are just what I need!
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daveh
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« Reply #358 on: February 13, 2017, 06:07:21 AM »

Rich,

For soldering piano wire, forget the multicore solder or Fluxite resin flux and go for a liquid flux containing phosophoric acid. Make sure you clean everything beforehand and afterwards as the residue can cause oxidation. I've used this method for donkey's years on everything from model aircraft undercarriages to model locomotive chassis components. The gold standard for load bearing items is silver soldering but that needs a lot more heat and is a bit trickier.

Dave
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #359 on: February 16, 2017, 06:14:09 PM »

Well, this thing was a project on it's own. Finally got it done - over 650 pieces of card and balsa, with a bit of wire and paper.

Having remade the hub, I decided I didn't like the cylinders I had made last year either (or was it the year before last?) - they were a bit heavy and the fins were a bit too chunky. So, I remade the fins with thinner card (cylinders are alternating discs stuck together). There was some discussion about how to make the copper pipework some time ago. In the end, I made them from laminations of balsa and painted them with acrylic paint. The fiddly-arse bits on the top of each cylinder are a combination of bits of bamboo skewers, balsa, paper and thin copper beading wire (tappet springs). The rod linkages are plastic bristles trimmed from a (new) dustpan brush (ssh, don't tell the wife).

The cylinders were brush-painted with a generic silver acrylic paint taken from a spray can. This and the copper bits are way too bright, but have been toned down and grubbied up effectively enough, by painting over with  a mix of acrylic varnish and graphite (pencil+sandpaper). This thing weighs in at 26 grams.

I have decided that my next outdoor model is not going to have a rotary engine...
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« Reply #360 on: February 16, 2017, 06:36:28 PM »

Wow, that's beautiful Rich  Smiley
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« Reply #361 on: February 16, 2017, 08:34:06 PM »

OMG!! Rich I made my 1/12 Le Rhone using the Williams Bros cylinders and had the chutzpah to put in on this forum.  I bow my head in shame and kneel at your feet!  What a stunning achievement.  True modelling mate!
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billdennis747
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« Reply #362 on: February 17, 2017, 02:42:48 AM »

Fabulous, Rich. Do you use a circle cutter and create a row of collections of discs of slightly-decreasing size? 25g is remarkable.
I wouldn't be concerned too much about brightness. From WW! pictures I don't recall seeing dirty engines. Perhaps cleaning them up was the first task of groundcrew; after all, we all know what happens if you leave castor oil on engines.
Inline engines can pose problems too but they don't have fins, and don't move about!
Can't wait to see it.
Bill
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ffscale
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« Reply #363 on: February 17, 2017, 04:24:38 AM »

Fantastic work Rich - it's a real masterpiece. 

Like Bill I'd be interested to hear how you built up the cylinders - if the discs for the fins and cylinders are all slightly different diameters I would think careful labeling is a must to avoid total confusion!

Mike S.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #364 on: February 17, 2017, 04:51:59 AM »

The top 11 fins are all the same size. Only the lower 8 are diminishing and I had to strictly cut and fit one disc at a time to avoid mixing them up because the size difference from one to another is so small. All the spacers are the same diameter throughout, but double thickness (literally two sheets card glued together). I cheated a bit and got the discs cut on a laser cutter at school but left 2 small tabs on each circle to keep them in place on the sheet - I'm glad I didn't have to cut them all out by hand as it was pain enough to just cut the tabs off. I overestimated the thickness of the card and had to use a circle cutter to make an extra 60 circles - one cylinder's worth. The problem with using card is that it doesn't sand cleanly and it dulls the blade quickly.

Whilst I enjoyed building this, it had its tedious moments - 9 of everything gets tiresome. I am happy about how the copper inlet tubes came out. My first one looked silly because I hadn't added the flared bit. This was simply solved by adding an extra piece of balsa either side of the base and reshaping. A small drum sanding attachment in the mini drill made shaping these a doddle, although one or two look a little fatter than the others. Because the grain goes 'the wrong way', I snapped a couple during sanding, but a drop of superglue and who would know? I used acrylic varnish as a sanding sealer to hide the balsary-ness. If you look carefully, I haven't been completely thorough and there are a few tell tale signs of grain and laminating here and there. I wasn't really sure about how well this was going to look until I started adding the copper tubes and the final details. The linkages finish it nicely for me. As did the graphite in the varnish. Not so much to dull the silver paint, but to 'metalise' it.

Overall a satisfying but time consuming diversion from the main model. At 1/8th scale this is a necessary detail and has certainly refreshed my enthusiasm for getting this model built...
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ffscale
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« Reply #365 on: February 17, 2017, 06:23:32 AM »

Thanks for the explanation Rich - very helpful.

I'm thinking of fabricating some cylinders myself for a future project using a similar technique, but I was planning to used plastic card instead of normal card, on the basis it sands well and can be neatly cleaned up.  Using an Olfa compass cutter you should only need to score the circle, then snap the disc out from the backing and clean it up.  I've bought a couple of packs of assorted thicknesses to play with.

Mike S.
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #366 on: February 17, 2017, 06:45:33 AM »

Hi Mike. Plastic would probably be a lot better than card. I'm a sucker for using what I can get my hands on. I must get a stash of styrene.
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« Reply #367 on: February 17, 2017, 07:35:51 AM »

1/64 birch ply also laser-cuts beautifully, and is very robust. Perhaps more for RC model engines than FF ones though.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #368 on: February 17, 2017, 08:57:35 AM »

Rich, this may have been covered in the DR1 thread but can you remind us how you reconcile the rotating engine with the need for lots of down and sidethrust?
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #369 on: February 17, 2017, 09:27:14 AM »

Hi Bill,

The Dr1 didn't use any thrust adjustments - it was set dead straight. Luckily, it flew like that (just long enough, by the skin of it's teeth). Not planning on luck with this one. The whole cowling block will be removeable for winding, but the motor shaft assembly will be mounted to a secondary noseblock behind the rotary which will allow for thrust adjustments. The engine is hollow - the thrust race is going to sit about 5mm behind the face of the hub which provides room for a 'box' to mount the adjustable noseblock into.  I may have to offset things to keep things visually centred, but I'll worry about that later. There is a fair amount of room between the engine and the cowling to enable moving things about by the odd degree or two.

Hope that makes sense! Hopefully I'll start messing around with the working parts next week...
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daveh
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« Reply #370 on: February 17, 2017, 03:59:22 PM »

Rich,

Just want to add my appreciation of a truly outstanding job. Can you knock up a quick 1/18 scale one for me?

Dave
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #371 on: February 17, 2017, 04:20:12 PM »

Me too- it's just beautiful. I'm shortly going to bodge together a few half-baked cylinders for my Caudron's dummy engine. I shall now have to leave a respectful gap before posting any pictures though.
(I'm going to nick that sanded graphite idea though.)
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Rich Moore
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« Reply #372 on: February 17, 2017, 05:08:45 PM »

Thanks all.

Spurred on by completing the Le Rhone, I have dug out the aluminium cowling I hammered out in May 2015 (!). I chickened out of the final shaping at the time, as I was worried I would ruin it. This would be easily done, either by cutting off too much or making it asymmetrical. Anyway, this evening I took the plunge and cut off 15 grams.

I cut to the correct depth first, then trimmed off to get the aperture shape right. I mostly worked to maintain the side profile using a cereal card guide as shown below. The front view mostly took care of itself. When I was close, I put the cowling back on its form and used folded paper to trace half the aperture. By unfolding I could ensure the other side matched. Overall I think this'll do. It doesn't scream 'wrong' at me and looks even better with the Le Rhone in it. A bit of final polishing every now and again will finish it off nicely.

I've swept the floor, so if anyone gets aluminium shards in their socks tomorrow, it wasn't anything to do with me...
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FFmodeller
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« Reply #373 on: February 17, 2017, 06:05:16 PM »

Looking good in place Rich  Smiley
Going back to the rotating element of the motor .... forgive me if I am repeating myself or someone else!
As I remember, Pete Iliffe did a rotating motor in his Seimans Shuckert and did not fix the motor to the shaft directly.
It relied on some kind of friction arrangement to the shaft so that it could stop if snagged ... this could also help when changing the thrustline perhaps?

Also, craft cutters work for cutting the card rings if you do have to cut any more ... we all should have one ... they are really useful things  Smiley
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« Reply #374 on: February 18, 2017, 12:12:07 AM »

When I have thought about rotating motors I have wondered about putting some unobtrusive vanes in between and behind the cylinders to allow the engine to windmill and give the effect without using power from the rubber...
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