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Author Topic: Propeller for "The Fly"  (Read 3151 times)
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jjlain
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« on: September 16, 2015, 04:06:14 AM »

Hello

I'm generally a newbie to free flight models and totally so for indoor ones, and wondering about the propeller for "The Fly" rubber model.

I'm building from the plan, so there's no kit propeller for me to use. So, what kind of propeller should I choose and what shoud/could it weigh? The plan & website are quite vague about that question, apart that the kit propeller comes from europe?

I can attempt building one, or use a commercial one. Would someone be so kind to point me in the right direction, what kind to (try) build or which commercial one would be suitable? In the plans gallery someone had left a comment about an interesting conversation about the model in question, but I cannot find it with the search tool.

Thanks in advance!

Jaakko,
Finland



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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 04:46:43 AM »

Ilmailukauppa in Helsinki sells the Ikara palastic propellers for indoot rubber, for example the 150mm diameter. The prop looks like Ikara made, but the dimensions are indeed not stated on the drawing! (Tim, you should add this data to the web page!)

In Finland, you might also consider building a model for the "Peruslennokki" class, where there are a number of other fliers and also contests. It is more fun to join others for the flying! (For non-Finnish readers, Peruslennokki is our national beginners class, rather similar to Science Olympiad models: min weight 6g, monowing max dimensions 480*80mm, tailplane max 45% of wing area, max 250mm diameter prop)

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jjlain
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2015, 05:44:43 AM »

Thank you for the prompt reply Tapio!

I'll have to visit there some suitable day, I'm also lacking the rubber for the plane. This one is mainly for the joy of the kids (and me) if it ever flies.

For the next one I might build I'll think about Peruslennokki, but am also thinking about an outdoor glider of some sort (maybe around 1.5 m span).

Thank you!

-J
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2015, 06:55:30 AM »


As you mention to "visit" Ilmailukauppa instead of placing the order by mail, I gather you are from Helsinki area. So you might be interested in visiting our bi-weekly indoor flying session at Sompio school on Kerava. Every other week the gym is used by Indoor RC people. Also the bulletin board lennokit.net is worth paying a visit, there is plenty of discussion on indoor models (and others) there.
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adanjo
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 03:20:59 AM »

Hello

I'm generally a newbie to free flight models and totally so for indoor ones, and wondering about the propeller for "The Fly" rubber model.

I'm building from the plan, so there's no kit propeller for me to use. So, what kind of propeller should I choose and what shoud/could it weigh? The plan & website are quite vague about that question, apart that the kit propeller comes from europe?

I can attempt building one, or use a commercial one. Would someone be so kind to point me in the right direction, what kind to (try) build or which commercial one would be suitable? In the plans gallery someone had left a comment about an interesting conversation about the model in question, but I cannot find it with the search tool.

Thanks in advance!

Jaakko,
Finland

Jaakko san,
If you want to buy the prop, you will be able to get it from Mike Wood house of Free Flight Supplies in U,K,.
http://www.freeflightsupplies.co.uk/
Click 'Indoor' and 'Rubber Accessories'. You will find IGRA RUBBER MODEL PROPELLERS.

It is 150mm dia and the max blade width is 25mm, weighes 1.04g (with plastic bearing parts, without a prop assy hanger on the plane).

Aki
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jjlain
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 12:55:17 AM »

Thank you for your reply Aki. This time I think I'll go for the Ikara one Tapio mentioned, that I can get by driving to the store, but I'll bookmark that webstore for future needs.

Tapio, maybe one of these days I'll come and visit the Sompio school, but free time is pretty scarce at the moment. But one day maybe!

-Jaakko
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 02:55:42 AM »


I think we are talking about the same props here, http://www.ikara.eu/index.php?nid=6259&lid=en&oid=953446 . I do not know why mr. Woodhouse calls them IGRA props (except that there seems to be a P-30 prop called Igra, however I thought that came from the same factory as these indoor props).

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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 04:14:16 AM »

Hi,
Anant from India. I built a FLY from plan and used IKARA 6" prop and the nose hub which I bought from Ikara website as there are no dealers in India. In fact Indoor Free Flight is yet to become popular in India. Everyone here is into RC stuff.
The FLY flies well. Will post a youtube link of my Fly in flight.
Need to adjust balance by pushing tail boom in or out a bit.
Made a carry box from my dogs food carton.
See attached pics

Happy flying
Anant
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2015, 05:04:17 AM »

Hi,

Here is a youtube link of a short video of the Fly in flight in my living room. Did not give too much turns as I wanted to avoid it hitting the roof.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqgk0g1RX04

See the other test flights of some models I made in the Foldnation channel.

The Biscayne Baby is another good living room stick to make. Flies well. Uses the same prop as the FLY. See the test flights at this link.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqRpv1k-ENI

Anant
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fitnezz
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2015, 09:31:37 AM »

Build the propeller yourself, e.g from the plastic yoghurt cup. Cut it diagonally at about 15-17 degs for the 5" prop. Than sand the blades on the bottle, also under an angle. Use bamboo spar from the splitted skewers and ca the whole thing together. Use pin/mw for the shaft. You will get way better result than ikara prop itself. (Way lighter). One blade in my case is about 0.15g average. The whole prop would come out at about 0.4-0.5g depends on the size. Ikara prop blade is just an ellipse, but you can test other shapes also. Example can be found for instance on my website tutorial for beginners:

http://clubmedia.eu/bamboo_poonker/index.html

Oh, in place of teflon washer, which you need to order from some weird websites from US, just use plastic from bottle caps like coca-cola and drill hole inside using flatten and cut pin. (Idea from someone on that forum, works like a charm). One washer only Smiley

For the bearing the best is to bent your pigtail bearing from mw/pin or use top part out of aluminium can, like shown under the link I pasted.
But go for pigtail, its super easy once you bent one or two. This will allow you to set your thrust angles for trimming...

good luck Smiley
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:42:58 AM by fitnezz » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2015, 05:05:10 AM »

Did not realise that only JPEG attachments are allowed. I attached PDF and Doc files.
Now converted to JPEG

Dont know if my last post had the template attachments.

Here it is again anyway as JPEG

Anant
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2015, 05:07:29 AM »

Yes making your own prop is also possible and also maybe more satisfying for a scratch building enthusiast.

Fitnezz your page with instructions is really good and useful for someone getting into this type of aeromodels. That too with commonly available materials.

Can also use a very small glass bead as washer. Should be available in a craft/hobby store that sells beads for making bracelets and necklaces.

I have also downloaded and my earlier post gives some templates for propellers that I saw on a website. Can printout and put on to a plastic cup and make it.
Different sizes and shapes. It can also be taken to a graphic software and also scaled bigger or smaller according to requirement.

Anant
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2015, 05:43:49 AM »

A word of warning about the glass beads: several years ago I was flying by SciOly model in a large hall (22 meters ceiling), and had problems getting the model climb enough. Reduced the back off more and more, until I was almost flying without backoff at all. The model had an Ikara plastic prop, similar to the one as "the Fly" has but 240mm in diameter. The bearing was also a plastic one made by Ikara. At some point I took a closer look at the prop and realized that the red glass bead for bearing was covered with grey dust. Similar calour as the bearing. Also the front surface of the bearing had turned concave. Apparently the bead was grinding the bearing! I did not have any substitute bearing material at hand, so for emergency repair I added a tiny drop of rubber lube to the bearing. Just in case increased the backoff a lot, and yet my model climbed steeply and crashed to the ceiling in 30 seconds. Whew!

So, some glass beads may be rough in surface. Not recommended!
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 10:28:30 AM »

Yes the glass or plastic bead could have a burr when the hole is made that will cause the problem you mentioned.

It is noticing these little things that adds to ones experience and expertise. Thanks for the info.

Some beads are good quality and one can feel the surface at the hole to feel any burrs. Any way better to have something that is as soft and smooth as the plastic bearing so it does not grind it.

Maybe as a standard routine use a small drop of oil like the light oil used for sewing machines or maybe even castor oil. Castor oil is the lubricant even in real airplane engines and also for gas engines of aeromodels. Have flown control line models with gas engine which uses a mixture of Kerosene-ether and castor oil.

Flew my FLY in the local college badminton court which has a high roof. 500 turns gave me a 40 sec flight. Perhaps if I increase the length of the motor and stretch wind it it will give a longer duration. Lubricated the rubber with hand wash soap.
Will upload the video on youtube and post the link.

Anant

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fitnezz
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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2015, 06:00:28 AM »

Also, take a look here, dude creates the blades out of the floam stuff formed on a hot water container Smiley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnzZJWhpYys
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2015, 05:10:21 PM »

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone!

I bought the Ikara propeller for my Fly, but maybe I'll experiment with building one! And also make a pigtail bearing. I made one out of a bit of balsa and a a few mm of carbon tube and it's quite brittle. And not really adjustable.

I test flew the model at my livingroom, but the turn radius was way too big. Next I tried it outside on a very still night, it flew maybe 10-15 secs on 100-ish turns on the rubber, in circles of maybe 5-6 m diameter. What's the way to control the turn radius? Tail tilt?

Also, the climb wasn't really spectacular, the plane flew at maybe max 3 m height. Has it more to do with wind's on the prop or trim? I have a small up angle on propeller. If the CG is supposed to be controlled by moving the boom back & forth, mine is useless for that at the moment. I cracked the boom a bit and wasn't bright enough to remove the boom for fixing --> I guess some sort of capillary action sucked the ca-glue into the paper collar and now the boom's stuck.

-J
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adanjo
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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2015, 12:44:36 AM »

JJ san,
Have you read ' The FLY ' thread in this forum?
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=14215.0
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2015, 12:45:53 AM »

In my models I set the "baseline" turn with rudder (tailplane offset) and left thrust, and then fine-tune the turn with tail tilt (no tilt in large halls, and more tilt when I need to make the model turn more tightly.

And one thing that I always want to preach when talking about indoor models. I do not use cyanoacrylates. They are heavy (it is hard to control their use to apply little enough), they are brittle and also make the balsa brittle and you cannot dissolve the glue joints in case you need to take something apart e.g. to adjust the trims of the model. Ordinary old-fashioned "model glue" (celluloid glue, Uhu Hart is the common brand in Finland) thinned 2:1 with acetone and applied from a needle-nose bottle works best for indoor model building.
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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2015, 11:06:08 AM »

Talking of turning problems.
This probably should not be on this thread. But since the discussion of turn and radius came up I thought I would mention this.
I built a double whammy and an A6. Both are taking right hand turns whereas the design is supposed to make it take left hand circles. Still working on test flights and figuring out how to correct this.

As for climb angle, my limited experience has shown that the main wing angle of incidence greatly affects flight performance. Of course the FLY has fixed main wing and no tissue tubes to adjust angle. Perhaps if the wing posts are accurate according to plan you get the required incidence. I found that adjusting the tail boom in or out then gave a good trim. What I did was to use a marker pen to mark the exact depth the boom is to be positioned so that after dismantling I can assemble it again accurately and not go thru the whole trim process next time I fly it. Same for wing incidence in other
models with tissue tubes for wing posts.

Anant
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2015, 03:54:45 AM »

Thank you again, everyone.

About the CA glues, I guess it's live and learn for me, more patience and care with the next model. I used SIG Bond on the Fly, but also the cyanoacrylate as mentioned.

-Jaakko
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2015, 05:42:01 AM »

If you are beginner (like me) and will be happy your Fly would do about 3 minutes, do not worry about the glue type and cosmic light-weight. Do it clean, trim it good, match prop and rubber. The Fly made with CA can easily do it. Later, on the expert level that does matter, but if beginner will be busy with weight too much, he would skip what is really important. Knowledge of aerodynamics + trimming.

success,

Jan
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2015, 08:46:56 AM »

Yes very true fitnezz

As a beginner too in indoor rubber band free flight I am yet to get a good over 1 min flight.
My last flight with the FLY (42 secs with 500 turns) gave me confidence that if I increase the length of the rubber loop and stretch wind it I should get a long flight of over 1 min. The indoor space should also have sufficient unobstructed height.

I have concentrated on building the models as accurately as per plan and here in India you dont get the various options of balsa various densities required to make strips of required weight as the professionals do. . Yes the trimming is the biggest learning experience. Have been using CA adhesive as it dries fast. Need to use very little and apply carefully not to let it wick to places you dont want it to go.

Anant
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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 03:35:56 AM »

You should get over 2, 3 minutes Anant easily using average balsa, looking at the size of the space you fly in. Get best parts of the sheet as described in Coslick's hobbyshoper and you will be absolutely fine. This is video of my Fly doing about 3 minutes in the attic kind of interior Wink https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsd8PIEItr8 This is just hobby shop crap balsa + lightweight sandwich bags for covering. All CA. Weight about 0.7g. Expert materials are for experts you know Smiley Dont bother with that, if you dont plan going contest...

best,

P.S. Looking on your videos Anant, it seems that you use a bit too much power. Go for lighter balsa prop and thinner rubber.

Jan
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 11:37:12 PM »

Hi fitnezz,

Here is the link of my FLY doing 42 secs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjuhjDW_g0

The thinnest rubber I had was the rubber that came with the Carbon Butterfly I got from Ikara.
The next thinnest I have is 1/16 rubber I got from FLYM.

I used the carbon butterfly rubber for this flight. Have some more length. If I make a longer motor and stretch wind it to max turns should get a good long flight.
Is the trimming and climb rate okay from what is seen in the video?

Anant
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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2015, 12:06:26 AM »

I've never built a Fly nor am I very familiar with them, but I think I could still offer some help.

The model in the video looked like it really wanted to sideslip to the left late in the cruise, and it seemed to be pulling a very hard left bank (e.g. left wing tip lower than right wing tip) the entire flight. This is clearly due to the extreme amount of stab tilt - I would take out most or all of the tilt in the stabilizer and instead use boom angle and left thrust for turn. Past a certain point, more stab tilt doesn't do much for turning radius and only makes your model less stable (and less efficient).

Also, that motor is running out of turns barely into the descent. You need a much longer motor, probably more than 2 times the length of what you're currently using. Then you'll really see the times go up. The Fly is somewhat similar to an AMA ministick - ministicks commonly fly with 3000 or more turns in a disproportionately long motor. I'm going to take a wild guess that you could be flying on around 1500-2000 turns on a longer, better motor.

P.S. Another observation - 500 turns used up in ~35 seconds of that flight means your propeller is running at somewhere around 800 rpm. This is really high, even for such a small, heavy model. Since you don't have thinner rubber, I would suggest increasing the pitch in the propeller by twisting the prop spar so that the blade angle on each side is closer to parallel to the direction of flight.

P.P.S. Here's master indoor flyer Aki Danjo's FLY - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfXKTPO_UmE
Notice how his model flies with very little or no tilt in the stabilizer and it still turns quite tightly.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 12:28:16 AM by Twinchicky » Logged
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