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Author Topic: Me 410  (Read 3097 times)
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Crabby
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2016, 11:34:18 AM »

Hey Don, it looks like your acetate (?) is just too thin to begin with.  I tried 6 times with my Mig before I went out and got some really stiff acetate that I would never had considered. It was the stuff they shrink wrap tools in at Home Depot. My lighter and more preferable acetate was just getting so thin as I pulled down, that the result was flimsy and hard to deal with. So my favorite coping mechanism clicked in and I got mad. Angry I found the thickest stuff I could find, tool packaging at Home Depot. Now I have a canopy I can deal with, and a tool that I don't need. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2016, 03:33:37 PM »

Hi Don,

Lovely job you're making. I was interested in your issues with moulding acetate.  Moulding nice parts for my models out of acetate or ABS plastic is one of the highlights for me and I look forward to it.  Wasn't always the case but then I built a simple vacuum box and haven't looked back since.  I use a black and Decker heat gun to warm up the plastic and steal the old girl's vacuum.  I use thin styrene sheet for most parts but for canopies and for parts on peanut sized models I have found that the clear plastic used for presentation covers forks well and results in really thin light parts.  This plastic comes in a block of probably 100 A4 sheets so you can have as many goes at it as you need.

For a man of your obvious skill a vacuum box would be nothing to build!
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2016, 07:39:48 PM »

Haven't gotten around to cutting my canopy plug in three pieces yet, but that is next on my agenda.  I've got both .010" and .030" stock for the canopy, so once the plug is in pieces, vac forming should be easy-peasy (he says ............).

I did manage to try one of the props with a rubber motor poking out the rear of the nacelle and it seems to work, although have a lot of 'de-wobbling' to do on the prop.  The hook at the rear is a 'tee pin' bent to slide over the wing TE.
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dputt7
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« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2016, 04:37:58 AM »

Don no need to cut up the plug, just mould it from the top, then each side and then cut and fit the pieces together.
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2016, 11:57:01 PM »

Hi Crabby, ZK, and dputt,

I made a vac form box some time ago, but have struggled with it.  One of the guys I race slot cars with has a vac form 'machine' which works perfectly, but the canopy for my 410 is just a little too big.  Further to Dave's post (dputt) I may try cutting the front from of my plug (to fit my friends vac form) and forming the sides of the canopy, one at a time.

Will report back etc.

Don

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USch
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2016, 11:01:45 AM »

Perhaps a few hints about thermoforming might help.

First thing is to bring the inside volume of the box to a minimum to avoid having to extract to much useless air volume. As the box itself has to be at least 2-3" of height to make the hole for the vacuum cleaners hose, fill the inside volume with a piece of expanded polistirene. On my one I just left 2cm in front of the hole's opening and 1cm between the cover and the polistirene. So air volume to extract is to a minimum and it draws down the plastic sheet faster.

One other trick wich helps a lot (and cannot be used on real thermoforming machines) is, once pulled down the sheet, leave on the cleaner and reheat the sheet with the hairdryer on the sides it did not adhere to the plug. The vacuum from the cleaner will slowly pull the sheet against the plug in most places. With acetate sheets you can get mouldings with complex shapes you would never have dreamed off. You can even smooth out wrinkles in the edges.

In your case you will have to divide the plug simply to help extraction from the undercuts afterwards.

Urs
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tom arnold
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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2016, 12:38:23 PM »

Wow, great tips, USch. Many thanks and I am printing that out for inclusion in my archives.
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USch
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2016, 01:07:23 PM »

Tom, do it once and you will never forget it in your life  Grin

Urs
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 01:08:50 PM »

Agree with Tom, never tried a heat gun with the vac still on.  Great tip USch!
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2017, 12:01:22 AM »

After a dozen or so attempts to make a canopy without success, I had to put my 410 on the shelf.  Recently I dug it out and decided to make interior formers for the canopy.  The formers were cut with my craft cutter and are three laminations.  They are waaaaay too thick, but work for me.  One up side is, in my canopy scrap pile I may have a vac formed rear canopy section (the hard part) that will work.
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cast_off_vortex
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2017, 04:55:02 AM »

One source I have had luck with for plastic forming is the plastic from 2 liter Pepsi bottles. I made a ring cowl for a P-26 about 10 years ago. It was stiff enough. For your canopy it may be too thick, but worth a try.

And might I add that is a mighty fine ME-410 you have going there.  Cool
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2017, 02:09:21 PM »

Hi cast off,

I haven't tried Pepsi bottles, but have used the plastic containers from McDonald's salads, both the clear tops and black bottoms to form canopies and spinners. 

This is the rear canopy section I'm going to use.  It's full of lines and other irregularities but.............well, my eye sight if failing...........haha.

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Ray_K
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 05:49:20 PM »

4-20-2017

Don,

The bones are looking great! Love the 3 bladed props.  Cheesy

Cheers, Ray K.
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tross
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2017, 08:36:31 AM »

Awesome. Smiley
Glad to see you making head way with this one. Grin

TR
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Sky9pilot
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2017, 11:40:34 AM »

Love this model Don...I know you'll find a solution for that unique canopy.  Can't wait to see how you solve this one!!!
Tom
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Best Regards,
Sky9pilot
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2017, 11:42:44 AM »

Thanks Tony, Ray, Tom.  Have started to lay out the printed tissue which is always fun to do.  Like way more fun than canopies, or at least, this canopy.
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2017, 01:08:48 AM »

One more time, pinned together.  Still laying out tissue.
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Warhawk
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« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2017, 01:13:47 AM »

I've found in my experimenting with vacuum forming (I made my own box) that the minimum amount of mold release (Vaseline) is needed to get a clear canopy.  I spread it on with my finger, and wipe it off a couple of times with a paper towel.

I also found that getting the acetate too hot will make thin spots and wavy lines in the canopy.  I like to get a "medium" amount of sag (you know, the second sag).  I'm using a small portable electric stove burner, like a hot plate.  I set it on a medium heat setting, which slows down the heating a bit, and I wave the acetate in circles over the burner (with an oven mitt) to get the whole sheet heated.

I'm using about .015 acetate, which gives enough material to form fairly large canopies (Guillow's 28" WS P-40 Warhawk).

If you are stuck with the cut and glue method, why not make the cuts on the canopy framing lines?  That way the framing work will help hide the marks.

Justin
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OZPAF
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« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2017, 03:58:21 AM »

Impressive Don.

John
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Crabby
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« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2017, 10:03:00 AM »

Don,
Was surfing the net and found this 410 illustration of a night fighter...just had to share it.
Sky9pilot

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/111699.aspx?page=5

Don if you have the stomach for it and the time check out what this guy went through with his plastic 410 canopy. If you haven't already. I know the plane but I never noticed what a whacky canopy it had. If you ever get one you like, make a few dozen! What a pain in the ______! (fill in the blank with the body part of your choice) I think Hitler should have had a chapter post scripted in Mein Kampf. But it is a most spine tingling adventure you are off on here.
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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2017, 10:13:50 AM »

That is a very attractive build Don. There is just one thing that I would expect to cause trouble and that is the rubber hooks on the trailing edge. Having said that I feel obliged to offer what might be an alternative so I took a paper clip and my pliers and came up with the thing in the two pictures below.  As you can see the wire bending is ridiculously simple. The wire is bent in the middle t form two legs side by side. A right angle bend determines the length of the hook. A second right angle bend determines how far the hook is below the bottom of the trailing edge.  The ends of the legs are spread apart for gluing to the top of the trailing edge.
The hook automatically has a smooth rounded end to easily take the 'O' ring. If the hook is kept close to the lower face of the TE then the twisting load is kept down and the 'O' ring is stopped from twisting.
John
[Don I still have your neat solution to the trapezium problem in my note book]
  
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2017, 04:36:53 PM »

Thank you for the vac forming tips Justin.  I hadn't thought of using vaseline as a release agent, although have to say my canopy plug is beyond salvage.  And my plan is to use wide strips to semi hide the interior canopy framing.

Crabby, thank for the link to that 410 plastic build.  The attention to detail is mind blowing.

Thanks John(s).  Hepcat, your hook is a very elegant solution which will limit the moment on the wing trailing edge.  I have been bending 'T' pins but will give your paper clip hook a try.
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BG
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« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2017, 11:59:29 AM »

I like John's hook but I worry that the rubber will jam up against the understand of the wing. I would want to offset it from the TE somewhat to prevent bunching and jamming.

BG
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Hepcat
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« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2017, 01:50:38 PM »

Bernard,
I am not with you. Huh  In the photograph the front of the hook is at the leading edge of the trailing edge  Smiley.When the 'O' ring (or winding loop, whatever it is called) is on the hook all the rubber will be in front of the TE. This was deliberate to avoid the rubber going under the trailing edge as neccesary with Don's hook on the rear of the TE.  I thought a complaint about my hook might be the loss of half an inch of rubber length.
John
 
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« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2017, 02:44:53 PM »

Hepcat, It may be that some folks are confused about how your rear attachment would work (I definately am).  At first glance I assumed that your images were right side up.  After rereading your description carefully it seems that's not the case!

Marlin
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