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Author Topic: Nose Dive  (Read 1094 times)
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newflyer
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2017, 10:04:38 AM »

Hi everyone,

So we decided to repaint the entire part that was originally red (I guess you call that the dihedral panel) and it flew better?!?! I don't get it. It's now not transparent for sure.

I guess this is the fun part of this sport.  Cheesy

I just want to make sure that no one gets disqualified for this part. Previously, on the Science Olympiad website, I saw that they clarified this rule in 2014. In the Freedom Flight kits, it just says to spray paint.
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ceandra
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2017, 11:10:12 AM »

Last year we just used Testors paint, thinned, in an airbrush and painted a full dihedral panel, was fine at State and Nationals. This year we have tip plates, airbrushed one (requirement), and airbrushed an inter-rib section near the center. Was OK at Regionals.

We do paint fairly completely, to ensure the "non-transparent" is met. We are still almost a gram underweight, so it was nto an issue.

Chuck
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newflyer
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2017, 11:37:46 PM »

Well, I'll let all of you know how we did tomorrow. My students were pretty happy that they had so many replies to my first post, so I really thank all of you for getting this plane at least a little off the ground.  Smiley I'm sure there's more potential to the plane than how we have flown it, but it's been a good learning experience for all of us.
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newflyer
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2017, 01:46:08 PM »

Well, we were doing great in the practices. Over a minute. However, they ripped the wing through the competition. The other team didn't even use the winder. They got scared and it didn't fly.

Thanks for all of your help. I'm pretty disappointed with the results.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2017, 03:35:35 PM »

newflyer -

I am sorry to hear it did not go well for your students at the competition. If they had a repair kit including some glue and Scotch brand clear tape maybe they could have made a quick repair.

The experience of your studetns shows the value of having a second airplane. If they had built the Vanguard P-18 instead of the more complicated kit, it would have taken only a fraction of the time.  They could have built two models in les than the time it took to build one of the other models. 

I hope your students have another opportunity to compete in the Wright Stuff event.  The students usually take a disappointing set back at the competition better than the parents and coaches.
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newflyer
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2017, 05:44:38 PM »

We had a second airplane but for some reason they did not check it in. I of course couldn't say anything even though they brought both planes in. They had super glue on them to fix but I don't think they were thinking well. I think they froze up like most 7th graders would in this case and didn't really understand that a small hole was going to affect the plane.

It was strangely handled at the venue. For the 8 minute period for one of my groups, they didn't even have timers ready. My student was holding his plane with the rubber band wound for almost 30 seconds to a minute and they didn't stop the time. My student also didn't take the time to rewind the plane. We practiced this a good amount of time.

So, basically, make sure before the kids wind the plane that they have the timers ready. Otherwise, the adults will not be there for the kids.

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newflyer
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2017, 05:57:35 PM »

It was my first year actually watching this event and they have changed it since I participated in it.

I would strongly suggest for new people like me to use an easier kit and take more time flying the plane than building.

The winner had less than a minute on the plane. It was not a Freedom Flight model. In fact, people who used FF were having difficulties all day with the plane.

This model, although may be the national winner, is not meant for a beginner.
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ceandra
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2017, 06:06:42 PM »

Newflyer:

After helping a middle school that I saw struggle at Regionals with FF model, I have to agree. While I understand the desire to give adjustments (variables), the plane is complex, prone to mis-adjustment, and ended up heavy (built without coaching by mid schoolers). Our team put together a very simple plane, somewhat based on a P18 plane from HipPocket plan gallery, and within the first 2 weeks we were in the gym testing. Based on a month of testing, we re-designed some areas, built 2 more, and have spent every session in the gym since.

I can see the extra variables being valuable for HS, but for MS it just made it that much harder. KISS. There are plenty of variables once flying to optimize.

I commend FF for making competitive kits each year. They really do help the hobby. But on this one it just seems too complex for MS.

Chuck
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newflyer
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2017, 06:39:44 PM »

The school paid for the kit so I felt like I had to use it. It took us 72 hours in total to work on the kit. I was just there to watch the students and it was hard for them to focus on it.

In the end, I feel bad about bothering with this kit. I feel like if I can help one team on here to pick an easier model before their regionals, I did my job.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2017, 08:12:06 PM »

The Vanguard P-18 kit is commercially available from Laser-Cut Planes for only $15. It meets the 2017 WS rules, assuming you build to at least the legal minimum weight of 7.5 grams.

See:

http://www.lasercutplanes.com/index.php?p=1_2

The instructions in this kit are clear, concise, and well illustrated.  The balsa wood is all laser cut and the balsa wood in the Vanguard P-18 kit that I purchased was very good quality.  The wing mounts that join the two halves of the wing and establish the correct dihedral are laser cut from plywood and are very strong.

The Vanguard P-18 has a very simple design. Only its wing is adjusted.  It has a wing saddle that can be slid fore and aft to adjust the CG.  The wing saddle can easily be shimmed to adjust the incidence of the wing.  There are no other movable surfaces that can come out of adjustment.  This is crucial to success for MS most students.  

Here is a picture of the Vanguard P-18 that I built from the kit and flew several weeks ago to test the design.  It went together very fast, maybe 3-4 hours.  I used a cut-down wide blade Ikara prop. My model came in about 2 grams underweight so I had to ballast up to the legal minimum weight of 7.5 grams.  Rather than add all clay ballast, I added a long cap piece made of hard balsa wood to the top of the motor stick. You can see this added component in the picture. The provided motor stick in my kit did not need reinforcement and would probably not have had any motor stick bending problems.  In other words, the motor stick in the kit is strong enough.

With a little trimming, I was able to fly two minutes and twenty-seven seconds (147 seconds) with my Vanguard P-18 in a high school gym.  If you use the red injection molded plastic prop that comes with the kit you won't need so much ballast. You won't get two and one-half minute flights with the red prop but you will certainly get well over a minute, and it will probably never break.

I have not been asked to endorse the Vanguard P-18 kit and have no financial incentive to do so.  I just want kids to be able to build a good flying WS airplane in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable cost.  I also like to support small companies in the free flight hobby.
 
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JasperKota
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2017, 10:05:22 PM »


I would strongly suggest for new people like me to use an easier kit and take more time flying the plane than building.

This model, although may be the national winner, is not meant for a beginner.
I agree that the FF kit this year is rather complicated. First year doing a build in general, and I messed up numerous times. Misunderstood instructions to make the wing center section, along with other parts, and despite the 20+ pages of instructions, I felt like it still could've added more detail. I was very confused during some directions and never really knew if I was doing it all properly. Finally finished the first plane just a month before regionals, and I'm now working on the second. Struggling to get it done, honestly. Building the first was such a frustration I've been putting off building the second despite that It'll probably be of much better quality than the first.

I will say, that my first plane flies (a minute at it's best so far, but more consistently hitting around 30 seconds  Sad), and Ziegler's extra information regarding aerodynamics, trimming and winding the plane are great. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding a space to test at (20 minutes two days a week at the school gym) so the plane still needs a lot of trimming. After reading calogoddard's post about the Vanguard I'm considering getting the kit, but maybe for states if we make it.
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Olbill
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2017, 10:25:32 PM »

72 hours??? Unbelievable!

My first two SO MS girls (7th graders if I remember correctly) had never seen or touched a model airplane. They built a FinnyPlane in 4 hours, adjusted it in my living room, won their regional and would have won state if they hadn't broken the model.

How could a WS model be that complicated? What is the point?
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dslusarc
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 12:16:50 AM »

For what it is worth here is what I have the kids building. All wood except for wing spars is 6#. Spars are 9#. Covered with produce bag. Models all come in around 5.5 to 6 grams.
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calgoddard
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2017, 06:54:18 AM »

Don -

Your 2017 WS model has a nice, clean, simple design.  I can see why your students are doing so well in this event.

Here is a picture of my 2017 WS model that I built based on my own design, before I built the Vanguard P-18.  I would say they are comparable in performance.

The use of tip plates makes constructing the wing a lot simpler.  As you know, they provide effective dihedral.  The tip plates are simply cut from 1/32 inch balsa sheet wood.  They are glued to the outer ribs of the wing.

BTW, I later spray painted the tip plates of my custom designed 2017 WS model shown in this post to comply with Rule 3.g.  I used Ultrafilm to cover this model and it came out about 2 grams under weight.  I should have used grocery bag material which is cheaper, easier to cover with, and much more durable.  I used the grocery bag material (aka HDPE plastic film) supplied in the kit to cover my Vanguard P-18 shown in Reply #34.

Students should spend less time building and more time flying.  

As long as the airplane maxes the wing and stab area, and is very slightly above the minimum legal weight of 7.5 grams, the design really does not make much difference at this level of competition.  Prop selection, trimming, matching rubber to prop, and winding are far more important factors responsible for success in this event.

With some guidance, MS students could build my WS model in 3 - 4 hours.  I suppose you could double that for novice MS builders.

Don - I am curious, why is it that you apparently did not laterally offset the wing in your design?

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dslusarc
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2017, 09:52:51 AM »

Interesting you mention the offset. When I was taking the photo I was wondering the same. It seems I made a CAD error with my plan. I intended to offset the whole wing 1/2" but only made the inner panel 1/2" longer than the outer panel, so only 1/4" offset. I am going to correct that for our next flying session.

As far as the design. I opted for tip dihedral mainly as it parallels the "Olympus" design I use to sell back in 2000. Since the students were building at home , I thought best to have a design parallel to what is on my CD building guide.  

Don
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calgoddard
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2017, 10:14:35 AM »

Don -

Yes, I see the larger inner wing panel on your model now in the photo you posted today.  I had wrongly assumed that the ribs in the wing of your model are equally spaced apart.  

My custom 2017 WS model has about 1/2 inch wing offset (inner side is longer).  According to one of my mentors (the late Cezar Banks) wing offset is desirable for a left circling indoor duration model.

Interestingly, the Vanguard P-18 has no wing offset, i.e., the wing is completely symmetrical. In addition, it has no wash-in on the inner wing panel, which should make Olbill happy!

Since your Olympus design works, go with it.  

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Olbill
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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2017, 11:51:23 AM »

Olbill is happy. But a little wing offset would be good.
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FFScott
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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2017, 10:54:18 AM »

Newflyer:

Where are you located?  If you are in the Washington DC area there are any number of people associated with the Maxecuters who can help.  There are also people in the Richmond VA and Baltimore MD areas.

We also have afterschool building programs in two local schools.

Scott
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