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Author Topic: Can the Senator Garmami noseblock assembly be explained?  (Read 2790 times)
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danberry
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2013, 10:53:01 PM »

These responses provide some thought provoking study.  Do most people make their own thrust bearing plate or find it available commercially someplace?  I have an order that I am putting together at A2Z (because they have many of the other items needed for a build) however they do not carry a brass thrust bearing plate or brass tubing. I checked my local hobby store and they do not carry these items.

Lee Campbell ----Campbell's Custom Kits

He should have that ball bearing thrust washer. Teflon washers also work well. I have a sheet of 1/32' teflon and a hole-punch.
Teflon shett available from McMaster-Carr.
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Underdog
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2016, 11:55:33 AM »

I have been working on the prop (Garami clutch freewheel) and not sure what size to drill the hole in the wooden prop. The metal prop shaft is 1/16" however I imagine there is to be a tube inserted into the shaft? Is that what the plastic tube is intended for in this assembly?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii171/jmccollough/tube%20thru%20prop_zpswjl0fhcw.jpg


I wanted to re-post this image that was deleted.
I find it troublesome when image links are missing.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii171/jmccollough/cd63deb4-4c44-4a97-91a1-cff73175a640_zps30fd00e7.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii171/jmccollough/5831087a-bb11-4cba-8f9b-2058a6c8b0e2_zps0d84cdb5.jpg
Can the Senator Garmami noseblock assembly be explained?
Can the Senator Garmami noseblock assembly be explained?
Can the Senator Garmami noseblock assembly be explained?
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Hepcat
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2016, 04:43:41 PM »

This looks as if it was an interesting topic but unfortunately four of the significant photographs were just a very dark picture of a cat written over with the words 'Click to open photo'. Can anyone explain this?
I have a clarification for Art about 'safety pin' springs.  Jim Mosely and I agree on almost everything in aeromodelling except this; he goes for ball pen springs and I go for the correct<smile>, safety pins.  As far as thrust bearings go I just use three flat washers, usually cut from an old credit card but sometimes I make the middle one of 'Teflon'.  With 1/16th wire they are usually three sixteenth outside diameter and would reduce in diameter for smaller wires.  I had quite a lot to do with ball bearings in my working life and I would never use one of those where some tiny balls run round between two flat disks.  A bit of dirt (flying fields are not clinically clean) would probably give more friction, balls to cage, than the assembly might hope to prevent.  I have never seen a thrust bearing of that type used where it mattered.  Usually end loads are taken with a standard axial ball bearing with wide tolerances.

John
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2016, 06:06:05 PM »

I'd say that plastic tube is sheathing for the hook.  To be honest this looks like a folding prop assembly and has unnecessary bits for a free wheeler.  Wire looks a bit skinny too.
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dephela
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2016, 06:56:37 PM »

I think the tubing is to go on the loop to give a larger radius for the rubber motor.

The loop for the motor is not attached to the shaft, the "arm for the "prop stop" is a separate item rather than an extension of the loop.

The "washer" is a ball bearing thrust washer, a simple design that has been around a long time. Nothing between it and the tube.

As said, not washers, the tubing in the nose block will support the rear "race" and the prop must support the front "race" for tit to work properly.

The "metal socket" could be a simple tube and washer. The wire should not just run thru the wood of the prop. It's just important that the load from the prop go to the side of the thrust washer to properly deliver power.

Hoping this helps.

Dennis
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Dennis
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2016, 10:17:50 PM »

What part of this assembly goes into the hole that is drilled into the balsa prop?
The shaft is 1/16" in diameter.  I would like to drill the hole in the prop and not sure how large (what size drill bit to use).
I could use a 1/16" drill bit however a hole that size would not leave sufficient space in the prop for a tube of some sort.
If such a thing is called for.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii171/jmccollough/tube%20thru%20prop_zpswjl0fhcw.jpg
Can the Senator Garmami noseblock assembly be explained?
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gossie
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2016, 11:13:22 PM »

I'm lost on what you want to do with the pics put up, BUT, if you go back to page one you will see the pic of my Senator prop, so I shall run it past you after having built five (5) Senators plus dozens of other rubber jobs the way that works for me every time.

Brass or aluminium tube in noseblock and prop. correct inside diameter to take the prop. shaft. 
Bend front of shaft as shown and add Garami clutch to the prop.
Add a metal washer to shaft and slide it into prop.  Washer on front so prop. revolves when freewheeling.
Add a bearing......I use 2 teflon circles cut from a teflon sheet or purchased bearings as shown.
Slide shaft into noseblock.
Bend rear of shaft as shown to a 1/2 moon shape and your done.  It's called a Grey hook after the inventor.

Make Grey hook rings as shown so rubber stays in place and makes it a breeze to change motors over.  Very poor practice putting rubber directly onto the hook.  Use the ring.

I do not use any springs on the prop. shaft.  Only springs I use is on a folding prop. to bring it forward to catch on the stop, not needed on a freewheel prop. IMHO.
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Underdog
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« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2016, 11:20:28 PM »

FAI supply provided the following information via email:
"The plastic tubing is for the hook end of the shaft where the rubber would connect. You should have some type of tubing in the prop blade.  Brass would be good. "
So, I will look for some brass tubing of a proper diameter and use the diameter of this tubing to establish the diameter for the drill bit. I will use that drill bit to drill a hole in the balsa prop block before I start slicing it up.
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Underdog
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2016, 06:36:47 AM »

I'm lost on what you want to do with the pics put up, BUT, if you go back to page one you will see the pic of my Senator prop, so I shall run it past you after having built five (5) Senators plus dozens of other rubber jobs the way that works for me every time.

Brass or aluminium tube in noseblock and prop. correct inside diameter to take the prop. shaft. 
Bend front of shaft as shown and add Garami clutch to the prop.
Add a metal washer to shaft and slide it into prop.  Washer on front so prop. revolves when freewheeling.
Add a bearing......I use 2 teflon circles cut from a teflon sheet or purchased bearings as shown.
Slide shaft into noseblock.
Bend rear of shaft as shown to a 1/2 moon shape and your done.  It's called a Grey hook after the inventor.

Make Grey hook rings as shown so rubber stays in place and makes it a breeze to change motors over.  Very poor practice putting rubber directly onto the hook.  Use the ring.

I do not use any springs on the prop. shaft.  Only springs I use is on a folding prop. to bring it forward to catch on the stop, not needed on a freewheel prop. IMHO.

Well, this certainly clarifies things to a degree (for this novice).  I will march forward. I may be inclined to make some sort of video of how this assembly all ties together and functions (just for my own piece of mind).  Having never seen such a contraption as the Garmami in the flesh I struggle with the concept.  I'm sure when all the bits are assembled correctly at my finger tips I will have a (hopefully) better understanding and appreciation for the intricacies of the design. 
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Essem73
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« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2016, 01:13:12 PM »

I always chicken out and get Spencer Willis to make my props. I admit the various clutch ideas did baffle me until I got one in my hands. I remember JO'D showing and explaining to me a single bladed folder prop mechanism on a Raff V and me nodding at the correct points, but struggling with the concept until I'd got hold of it and had a 'play.'
 I will however 'man up' in future and carve something useable. The last attempt looked like a warped wooden spoon, and about as heavy. Including, I may add, a good old fashioned slice into the base of my thumb, one of those ones you insinctively hold your other hand onto, and then daren't lift up said hand to look at the damage..

Stew.
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applehoney
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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2016, 09:00:34 PM »

Only just came to this thread after a few days away to a contest.

As two illustrations  originated from me I'll try to clarify the questions, at risk of repetition (or conflict ) with those of others   Grin

(A)  Are these washers?  ....     No, a ball race
(B)  Where to find this metal socket?  ......   Not a socket, just a simple cupped washer soldered to the shaft as a restraint for the end of the spring.
(C)  Why solder the loop to the shaft instead of bending as one piece?      Shaft is one piece - the soldered joint is the sprig attached to the shaft, as shown in the accompanying sketch
(D)  Do 'washers' bear on noseblock tube?     The ball race does bear upon same

Other sketch -   Will this lever bump into the screw?   ...  yes, that is it's purpose.    As turns run off toque diminishes and the spring then pulls the shaft forward so that the 'lever' engages.  This enables the prop to freewheel freely whilst retaining a small number of turns on the motor to keep same reasonably taut between shaft and rear peg. Better than having a fully unwound motor falling loosely into the fuselage and possibly spoiling glide trim.  Those last turns, if left to unwind, would offer no effective thrust and likely induce drag from a slow turning prop.

I differ from my good friend Gossie in that I consider a spring stop good practice on any model - folder or freewheeler .....  but life would be dull if we all agreed   !

Incidentally, I do not use a length of brass tubing alone as a shaft bearing in the noseblock as I feel that a wire shaft may not be absolutely true and straight after all the various bends made at the ends and thus may bind fractionally as it turns.    I now solder 1/8" long pieces of the required diameter into the ends of a larger diameter tube that fits in the noseblock; the shaft then runs in those 'journals' only.      I know John .. you'll be telling me of the gunk buildup in there as well as in the ballrace....   Grin

Stew -  " a good old fashioned slice into the base of my thumb, one of those ones you insinctively hold your other hand onto, and then daren't lift up said hand to look at the damage.."   Did your mother not lecture you to NEVER cut towards yourself. as mine did?   Just good common sense.  I have similar scars to prove I didn't take notice either    :'(


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gossie
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« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2016, 11:26:22 PM »

Thanks for your post Jim, to clarify.

We all do what we do sometimes in a slightly different way that works for us, and it's really up to the individual to decide what suits them best I guess.

(So how did the new Vargowock go?   I'm going off to fly mine shortly, and I must admit to liking it a lot.)
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applehoney
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2016, 10:34:24 AM »

Vargo?   Haven't had a chance to work it out beyond a couple of low torque flights, that did look promising.   Have only four weekend flying opportunities in the year, three have been busy or field conditions  unsuitable for longer flights .. and the next will be too busy to trim anything 'new'.  Hopefully next year .....
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Modelace
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« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2016, 02:16:59 PM »

20
GARMAMI Huh
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TRuss
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« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2016, 01:55:24 AM »

Yeah.  You know, Leo Garmami. Grin
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Laminar001
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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2017, 10:22:19 PM »

Hello

Interesting posts these ones.

Just to add my experience on prop shaft bearings; I have found that very small plastic beads as found in my daughters jewellery kit work wonders behind the prop of my rubber models.  This is due to the prop being curved at the rear at the shaft exit and the bead surface being curved.  The result is very small surfaces rubbing together = low friction.  A little lubricant helps in between.  With timber props and folding props, yes a Teflon disk would work well in between the prop surface and the bead.

Beware you might have to pay $1.00 to your little daughter or grand daughter for a bead... My daughter has decided this is good business.

Teflon sheet can be sourced from specialty engineering supply shops.  The kind of places that sell unusual engineering materials and unusual fasteners such as Nylon bolts and nuts.

Regards

Marc.
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