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Author Topic: Avro Avis aka The Flying Carrot  (Read 1688 times)
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RalphS
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« on: April 17, 2017, 11:35:39 AM »

I had hoped to fly this at the Indoor Scale Nats this year.  A dark, miserable winter and no Velodrome flying took the edge off my urge to complete the model and I have failed to finish it.  I bought a Silhouette Portrait craft cutter and did a redesign to take advantage of the fine accurate cutting potential.  This took time and put me yet further behind.  I decided to go with full depth spars with immaculately aligned notches in LE and TE and everything just clicked in position.  The perennial problem of neat thrust adjustment and the various solutions that appear from time to time caused a bit of thinking time but I feel that I have, at last, got a nice system that doesn't need shims behind the noseblock.  The prototype Avis (and there was only one) has challenging writing and there is not much clear evidence of the actual final form of this feature. The existing model designs and published drawings do not match the available photographs and I had to do a drawing and get it approved by the members of the Scale Tech Committee who were very accommodating - thanks Andy and Bill.

It was going together quite nicely until I found that the full depth spars would not stop the wings bowing upwards after covering.  In the end I stripped off the top covering and added an extra 1/16" square spar.  In my hurry and not wanting to do too much brutal sanding I now see that, in good lighting, there are some lumps and bumps that need removing. This means either making some new wings or stripping off the covering and re-sanding. So, unless I can get some of those pills that keep people awake and alert for a couple of days the Flying Carrot will have to wait a bit longer before taking to the air.  Anyway a few photographs to fill up the internet will take up yet more building time.

Photos show original wing structure, fuselage and some trial fits.  I don't know why I make small complicated models.  i could have made a couple of modern coupes in the time I have spent so far on this.
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RalphS
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 11:55:20 AM »

The noseblock and thrust adjustment looks ok to me.  When I made a Storch in 2004 I designed a prop bearing with a radiused section that seated in a cup to allow it to adjust for side and down thrust but couldn't find an easy way to hold it in position.  My electric r/c models are mainly made from foam and I have come to love UHU Por adhesive.  It sticks well enough but never seems to go hard and stays flexible.  I tried sticking a brass tube to a piece of balsa and allows the tube to move in all directions but holds together.  The first photo shows the parts used on the Flying Carrot consisting of an ali tube with a ply thrust plate with a slightly oversize hole to allow the brass tube and soldered on washer to take up thrust angles as required. The UHU Por goes inside the tube from the rear and sits around the brass tube/plywood thrust plate juncture to stop it falling out.  The idea is to fit shims between the propshaft tube and the rear of the exit behind the noseblock to give thrust adjustment.   I vacformed the cowling from 10thou acetate.  
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« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 12:08:37 PM by RalphS » Logged
RalphS
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 12:07:02 PM »

Forming card cones for wheel discs always end up with an overlap when I do them so I turned up an ali cone, mounted it on a bit of dowel, heated on my trusty covering iron and plunge moulded a few wheel discs in just a few minutes.  Cut them out, paint them and glue to foam wheels - job done.

With fuselage and wings mylar covered I used the craft cutter to cut the decals from black acrylic sprayed decal paper.  First I did a trial cut on white copy paper to check size and general appearance.  CAD and the ability to use a .dxf file straight from the CAD program into the craft cutter made this easy.  Generous application of Microsol allowed the decals to easily float into their correct positions and suck themselves flat onto the covering.  Too bad about the lumps and bumps.  

Well, there's always next year. Grin
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Mefot
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 01:25:55 PM »

It all looks good to me Ralph, particularly your novel method of thrust adjustment.

With almost a year to get it trimmed there's no excuse for not entering it next year !!!  Grin
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DavidJP
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 04:18:59 PM »

 Nice!  Reminds me to find my bits - could finally make a FF Nats in a year or two for the AM/MA plan event.  But still need to sort out the pseudo diesel Redphin.  Looks as though will have to get my chum to machine a piston and liner!!

Yours is much more faithful to the original of course so well done. But a bit of an anaemic carrot what?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:29:56 PM by DavidJP » Logged
SP250
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 04:46:09 PM »

Ralph

What did you do to dull down or matt the silver mylar so it looks like silver doped fabric?

John M
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RalphS
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 05:53:51 AM »

What did you do to dull down or matt the silver mylar so it looks like silver doped fabric?

Hi John,   Just cover with dull side of mylar on the outside and lightly airbrush with Tamiya XF-16 Flat Aluminium acrylic paint.  Degrease before spraying with Methylated spirit or similar.

Ralph
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SP250
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 01:08:51 PM »

Thanks Ralph

Bring it along on Sunday - i'm sure other folk would like to have look at it as well as me.

John M
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OZPAF
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 07:29:07 PM »

Bit of a pity Ralph - that's a really nice effort. However next year Smiley

happy building
John
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RalphS
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 10:20:33 AM »

Thanks for the sympathy but that's what comes of changing techniques.  However, the wings are tiddly little things and a few key strokes have already changed the rib design to accept an upper spar and the craft cutter will be sent new instructions and, hopefully, a decent set of wings will quickly appear.  On the other hand I was very pleased with the cutting accuracy of both the balsa and the decals.  Photo shows the fuz and upper wing with decals added. 

Our club A2 contest is next week and I will be flying my Lucifer - now that is a wing. 
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RalphS
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 11:14:17 AM »

But a bit of an anaemic carrot what?

The Aeroplane Monthly article gives the colour as yellow-orange.  Through a friend, the manager of the Avro Heritage Museum thought that it would be Chrome Yellow. Photographs showing the Avis prior to the final finish show it to be very dark.  I wonder if it was painted in the dark red dope undercoat given to fabric covered planes right up to the Hurricane.  I imagine the Avro workshop manager saying to the painter with the yellow paint "don't put too much paint on lad it's too b..... heavy already".  So the red grinned through (technical term) giving the yellow-orange colour.  I don't think anyone will ever know exactly what colour it was.  Picture from Manchester Art Gallery showing red paint on Hurricanes during manufacture.  I seem to remember that you like Art.
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DavidJP
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 04:05:50 PM »

Your latest picture shows a much more carrot like colour - but just teasing really.  I have seen aircraft finished in that "red" in your Hurricane picture and my recollection is that  it was far less "red" - more brown, and i remember also a piece of fabric from a Wellington which admittedly had possibly faded looked almost brown.  Colours of paint finishes has been a subject argued about since they started to paint unbleached linen so in truth, my view is that very few people today are an authority on colours. I knew someone who worked in the spray shop at Longbridge during the War and said that colours did vary because they mixed the paint there for spraying the bombers and it depended on how accurate the operative was with the proportions and how long it was "mixed".  But there was a War on and apart from the mandarins in the MAP no one really cared, particularly the crews!  They paid little attention to the finish being too busy with other things!

So unless you meet someone who was there and has very accurate recall I doubt anyone can authoritatively challenge you.
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RalphS
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 03:52:28 PM »

This has been an on-off type of project. I don't like to see unfinished threads so - the story so far.

I was interested to try out a craft-cutter and do a bit more work on applying lettering and numbers and get as much information on the Avis as I could with the intention that if I could get a peanut sized version to fly I could go on to make a larger version.  The craft cutter works well for balsa and cutting decals.  The block that has appeared is the lack of information on the full sized aircraft.  I think that I have solved the wing shape, making published plans of both full sized and model size wrong for the final colour scheme - unless someone has information that I haven't been able to find.

At the Indoor Scale Nats this year I overheard one of the static judges say of my kit-scale Auster - "there is no evidence that they had green reg marks"  - this was just for kit-scale(!) and I lost 13 points compared with the same model in the previous year's competition!  I could have said that, in the early 1950's, with another apprentice at the controls, three of us could club together to get 30 shillings for a lunch break half an hour flight in a Luton Flying Club Auster that was silver with green reg marks.  The kit-scale Auster did fly well though. Smiley

I assume that the flying scale comp static judges are even more vigilant than the kit scale judges so I don't think that I will bother to make a bigger version of the Flying Carrot knowing that it could be down-marked through lack of detailed proof.

There is a bit more work to do on this peanut version - flying wires, engine detail, crew.  It weighs just under 12 grams as seen but will most probably need a gram or two of lead for balance so will end up about 10 grams lighter than my Bristol Scout albeit with slightly less wing area.

 
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Mefot
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2017, 04:41:09 PM »

That's a super looking model Ralph. The only way I know of to get more proof of colour scheme would be to write an article for one of the magazine's. If you illustrate it with your colour profile it instantly becomes eligible colour documentation, whether it is really accurate or not !!!
I had a bit of a chortle at your Auster markings tale. I would assume you had no evidence as to what colour the markings were which means you would have lost points whatever you did.
I would love to see this plan published in the Aeromodeller along with a description of it's colour ( as Walt Mooney sometimes did ) . Instant documentation for anyone who did want to build it, or a bigger version !!!  Grin  Wink


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Jack Plane
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2017, 04:47:31 PM »

Beautiful Avis Ralph!

Jon
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billdennis747
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2017, 05:37:55 PM »


I assume that the flying scale comp static judges are even more vigilant than the kit scale judges so I don't think that I will bother to make a bigger version of the Flying Carrot knowing that it could be down-marked through lack of detailed proof.
That's a very nice model Ralph.
A bigger version would do very well in outdoor competition. It is very difficult to get proof of colour for older, more obscure aircraft; that's the reason the marks awarded for colour accuracy are so low, they don't matter.
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2017, 07:08:27 PM »

It's a real beauty, Ralph. I'd also like to see the plan published in Aeromodeller, preferably alongside an 'Aircraft Described' type article which includes your super new three view drawing.

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OZPAF
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2017, 09:26:07 PM »

What a great looking effort Ralph.

John
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Prosper
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2017, 02:33:37 AM »

That's a beaut, Ralph, kudos.

Re. the Auster, I don't know what counts as 'evidence' where judges are concerned but at least as far as the Auster V/J-1 Autocrat* is concerned, this is written by none other than Eddie Riding. It's obvious from B&W photos that the first lots of J-1s were cream not silver, but later at some point they became silver as standard. I would guess that the maroon or green option remained since the trim is almost identical as seen on this still from some 1955 footage. The leading-edge trim became a solid thick line instead of two thin lines on earlier aircraft.

Stephen.

*Or to fit in with this thread, the Autocarrot.
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billdennis747
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2017, 02:56:59 AM »


I assume that the flying scale comp static judges are even more vigilant than the kit scale judges so I don't think that I will bother to make a bigger version of the Flying Carrot knowing that it could be down-marked through lack of detailed proof.
That's a very nice model Ralph.
A bigger version would do very well in outdoor competition. It is very difficult to get proof of colour for older, more obscure aircraft; that's the reason the marks awarded for colour accuracy are so low, they don't matter.
PS in any case, you have acceptable published documentation on colour. My Hawk Moth is described as 'dark blue' and that's all you need. You just need to try and match your colour to that as best you can. Lots of competition models just have written descriptions.
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2017, 03:14:57 AM »

Not sure how I've missed this thread but well done - lovely model - interested in the craft cutter for cutting decals - how small can you go with them?
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danmellor
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2017, 03:15:47 AM »

I'm baffled by the judges reaction to your green Auster markings. Surely the Kit Scale rules just demand a model that is "Coloured in an appropriate manner", if you can't find proof of your chosen scheme...?

Dan.

PS Nice Avis!
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2017, 05:23:44 AM »

I agree with Dan's point.

Indeed, for a direct comparison, my own Arrow entry in 2016 had an entirely fictitious scheme and registration.  I reckoned my lower ranking was due to the fact that Ralph's was considerably smarter in static appearance (despite maybe taking a slight hit for a sprayed finish), as well as flying marginally but consistently better.

I wonder whether, for KS at least, the spirit of the thing is sometimes confused with the exacting demands of the Open classes?
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RalphS
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2017, 07:23:37 AM »

Thanks all for nice comments.

I have done articles for various magazines previously and they take me ages to do but I will bear it in mind. Bill kindly signed off my coloured 3 view - but I have found some errors that need putting right.

The kit scale scrutiny is a bit OTT in my opinion anyway.  The KK Arrow reg no was completely spurious as it was a reg allotted for use in Australia but never used.  As far as I am concerned Scale comps are just a bit of fun and to see my Auster do several laps of the Walsall hall about 6" below the beams was a delight (I backed off a few more turns on the 2nd and 3rd flights to keep it lower)

Re Mike's question about size of cut letters - On the Avis the fuselage reg letters are 12mm high.  The craft cutter used can be adjusted for depth of cut and cutting speed so I suspect that smaller items could be cut.  The Craft Cutter thread in the "Workshop" section gives hints and tips from tross, pedwards and Don McLellan who started the craft cutter idea on here. Using my technique the lettering looks very good to the naked eye but when magnified it shows signs of "chipping" around the edges.  Perhaps different paint system or cut first then airbrush the colour could improve that. 
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abl
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 09:54:01 AM »

Have just seen this thread; beautiful model! You must be very pleased with it.

A.

BTW, as far as the Auster is concerned, can't you just write down the story of lunch-time flying in the full size Auster, declare whatever colour it was and sign it as a colour declaration? I don't see how that's different to any other written colour declaration - but then, I'm not a judge...
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