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Author Topic: first indoor - ministick build  (Read 3012 times)
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Skymon
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« on: June 06, 2017, 04:01:53 AM »

In the UK it's chucking it down with rain. So my CLG antics have stopped for a while.
In the relative shelter of my living room I've started a ministick build.
The plane is a plan I found of a Miniquark.
It's full of rather interesting measurements with many decimal places...
I've converted them all to metric and tried to cut some wood to an approximation of the actual sizes.
Progress has been good with a few slip ups on the way.

I've struggled with a few things.
Making the tissue tubes for the wing posts was a nightmare.
I took a number of attempts, but finally got there with something I hope is a tube.

I had an issue with adhesive. I bought some Duco and attempted to thin it down with acetone...
No good, it just ends up as a furry lump.
In the end I sued a wood glue thinned with acetone.
It took ages to dry but hopefully the joints will be strong.

I'm putting this together as a first time build to learn the techniques and processes.
I'm not expecting it to be a lightweight or a great flier, but I hope with everything I learn I can do a better job next time.

If anyone has the time to reply I'd like to pose a few probably straightforward questions...

1 - building board. I used a strip of old 1/4" balsa, but I noticed it wasn't that flat. What do you use as a nice flat building board that you can stick pins in to easily?
2 - Adhesive for indoor specifically. I see talk of the legendary Ambroid and also of Duco that can be thinned with acetone. I tried Duco and it doesn't react well to acetone. What's an easily available UK adhesive?
3 - dimensions for ribs, spars, etc... my pan shows dimensions like 0.035" x 0.045" - which one is which? vertical first or horizontal??

My shopping list for this build has been intriguing my wife...
She's seen guitar strings, dress making pins, nail polish remover, a bag of 'clingfilm' and tiny rubber bands turning up. She's confused.

I would like to thank John at Flitehook for being an awesome supplier !

Happy flying
Si
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first indoor - ministick build
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frash
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 08:21:09 AM »

I did not look back at the plan, but I think that the larger dimension (0.045-in) for the wing spars goes vertical. If I'm wrong, surely someone will respond.

Fred Rash
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Rossclements
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 09:20:36 AM »

I use coroplast for my building board. You can get them from the makers of the signs or just wait until the local elections are done and take some. It works pretty good as long as you don't put a pin in one of the vanes.

Ross
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Skymon
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 08:26:16 AM »

I spent a few more hours on this plane last night.
I'm learning a lot on the way.
Making pigtail motor bearing was very difficult and took a lot of examples to get right.
I've not been that stringent on the building light methodology yet, I've been using CYA glue when I need a quick fix, just to move along with the build.
My tissue wing post tubes were very chunky.
Covering was reasonably painless but I know I went overboard on the spray mount Smiley
Forming wet balsa is another new one on me, that went reasonably well - hot water helps over cold.

The model is just over 0.5g so far, so over the min weight limit already but not too bad for a first go.

I have the tip plates to add now, trying to work out how to do that without sticking the wood to the covering.
I realised I fitted a stab end plate in the middle as a fin, that isn't right, so it'll have to come off and be replaced tonight.

I will be trying to build a propeller tonight, another voyage of discovery.
Looking to do my maiden flight on Thursday of all goes well.
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Re: first indoor - ministick build
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Olbill
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 11:10:41 AM »

I don't understand the Duco problem. I've used it for years and never had anything like that happen.
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ram
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 11:25:57 AM »

I don't understand the Duco problem. I've used it for years and never had anything like that happen.

My guess is the issue is with the quality of the acetone and not the Duco unless there is a different type of Duco sold in Europe.
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Skymon
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 11:43:07 AM »

I used 'nail polish remover' and it's got other stuff in the ingredients.
I have a bottle of 99.9% pure acetone on the way now...
I'll see if that helps.
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2017, 12:03:20 PM »

I'm not sure what's available over there, but I also frequently use lacquer thinner.  It typically contains acetone along with some other solvents that evaporate a little slower.  I occasionally have issues with blushing when using acetone because it evaporates so quickly, and lacquer thinner usually solves the problem.

As for the spars and ribs, almost without exception the larger dimension will be the vertical height on any indoor model. 
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Skymon
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 03:34:11 AM »

I started the prop build last night.
It took me four attempts as the sanding process proved tricky...
I started with 1/32 balsa and cut out the lighter parts from the lightest sheet I had.
Used a spot light to work out where the dark areas were and avoided them.
One blade came out nicely at around 0.2mm and then I proceeded to mash up two more blades when my sanding block caught the root.
On my fourth attempt I was successful and I had a matching blade.
The first came in at 0.05g and the second 0.07g, so I sanded the second blade until it evened up.
It as pretty thin now.

Both blades were soaked in hot water and wrapped around a bottle last night.
Tonight they come off and I start to make up my first prop.

One thing I've learned with this indoor building stuff is that you can't use the traditional puff of air to clear balsa dust form the building board - everything else goes with it!

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Skymon
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 03:35:17 AM »

When building up the prop do I need to add something as a thrust bearing so that the balsa hub doesn't stick on the pigtail bearing?
I have some thin ptfe sheet...
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Olbill
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 07:08:39 AM »

Yes. Teflon works great. I always use 2 washers. Maybe unnecessary but it makes me feel better.
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Skymon
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 06:27:18 PM »

Well she's done!
I learnt that props turn anti clockwise and that nail varnish remover is not the same as pure acetone.
I got my glue thinned although it vaps off very quickly and it leaves a cyanosis type frosting.
I have completed a few laps of the bedroom and I now need to learn how to make it turn tighter.
I also need to learn how to wind and install rubber.
I have no idea what thrust angle i have or what trim is best but it flies!
Si
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Skymon
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2017, 03:32:21 AM »

Some pics of the finished ship
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Re: first indoor - ministick build
Re: first indoor - ministick build
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hastf1b
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 04:45:51 AM »

Mount the stab better for left cirkel.

Heinz
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Re: first indoor - ministick build
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Skymon
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 07:56:22 AM »

that's a severe boom offset!
OK, I'll give it a go.
I wonder about making a prop where I can vary the pitch - with tissue sockets.
I have no idea what pitch my prop is...

I have a long way to go
Smiley

Have a super weekend
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hastf1b
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2017, 08:49:51 AM »

The drawing should be just an example, but the left circle should be.
Propshaft with tissue sockets can be made.

In the beginning, it is always good to build by a plan.

Have a look at here for the prop pitch: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjouZagi_PTAhWEeSYKHYYGAo8QFgg8MAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rcgroups.com%2Fforums%2Fshowatt.php%3Fattachmentid%3D2890778&usg=AFQjCNEsm_-38uC76es0ctLz18NOUQoDjQ&sig2=kyGxZxKxHujrWKpZ2gWGBA


Heinz
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 09:11:50 AM by hastf1b » Logged

F1B is o.k.
Rossclements
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2017, 10:31:47 AM »

Or here http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=21539.0
You can also use left thrust help turn the plane.
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Hepcat
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2017, 07:49:53 PM »

Skymon,
Making tissue tubes can be frustrating at times but you get better at the right amount of cement to use after a while.  For a long time I kept a piece of 16swg wire clean and polished with a bit of brass tube sliding on it to help push the paper tube off. Later I learnt to rollthe tissue with about 1/4 " of tissue overhanging the end of the wire.  As soon as possible after rolling I pinch the overhanging tissue between thumb and finger and pull it off the wire.  I then try to drop it on the bench without further touching to let it dry off. Cut to length later with a very sharp blade (as from a disposable razor.

Recently I did a propeller for an indoor model (but not as light as a ministick) and wanted to be able to vary the blade angle.  The first picture below shews the hub. Two pieces of 1.32" ply 1"x0.125". The prop shaft with some balsa as thick as the wire are stuck to one piece of ply and then the other side stuck in place. In the next picture two strips of printer paper are stuck on one side of the hub. The prop blade has a 1/16" dia. spar sanded down from a cocktail stick. This is held on the edge of the hub and the end of the paper strip is pulled over the spar and glued to the other side of the hub.  Make sure the blade can rotate and later glue a couple of wraps of tissue over the paper.

John
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Re: first indoor - ministick build
Re: first indoor - ministick build
Re: first indoor - ministick build
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Skymon
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 03:29:24 AM »

I completed a new plane over the weekend, a K777.
Here's a short youtube of it flying around my bedroom with 200 turns on some short rubber.
I'm probably going to start another design tonight.
https://youtu.be/HCqB8nHMrWY

Having a lot of fun learning these new building techniques.
Not sure that I'm creating top end example, but they fly and I now know a lot more about these lightweights than I did before.

Si
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hastf1b
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 03:44:13 AM »

Very nice, congratulations. Smiley

Heinz
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Skymon
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 09:59:54 AM »

That's the Quark in the video not the K777...
I have yet to film the K777 as it's not quite as well trimmed.
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fitnezz
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 04:49:43 PM »

Dont hesitate to give 2000+ turns in your bedroom in place of 200 Wink Here ie my RIP K777 floating and bumping around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3F2EZ3wCps
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FF - flying first! - building second?
Skymon
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2017, 04:37:59 AM »

that's super! I love the colours Smiley
I weighed all of the parts for both planes last night and they are quite similar in weight.
0.78 for the Quark and 0.73 for the K777.

My motor stick for the Quark weighs as much as the minimum weight for this class Smiley

I'm likely to build another this week, possibly the 'record' plan.
And I'm quite tempted to build another Quark and try to get the weight down.

My props seem to be about twice the weight they could be at 0.2g
I guess I need to sand just a little more...

I got the quark to complete five circuits of the room last night, took about 30 seconds.
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fitnezz
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2017, 01:58:10 PM »

Don't get obsessed with cutting down weight too much;) I was making this mistake in place of focusing on what is really important in the beginning of my journey. My 0.8g mini with bamboo LE/TE/winglets (on stab and prop) and foam prop blades was giving over 3 minutes constantly in my tiny area.  Important thing when flying in a bedroom and small area. Prop P/D should be very low as for minis. around 1.4 for my area or lower. Forget about 1.8 or something. My good minis were using 7" props, others 6" or 6.5" 0.2g prop is really ok. Also lots of washout on the right and washin on the left. Bit of boom left offset, small stab slant. A touch of left and down thrust. And you get your mini flying for minutes in your living room. Good luck!
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Skymon
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2017, 02:58:08 AM »

I'd like to aim for reducing weight for a challenge and to gain a greater insight in to the indoor building techniques.
It's quite a dramatic change to see a plane float about when my experience up to now has been pinging catapult gliders at 100MPH+.
I've cut up a drinks can last night to see if I can make a thrust bearing out of it.
I'm also going to try a mini with a curved wing and stab outline, just because it'll look nice.
I think, as you say, props are right at the core of good performance when you have such a tiny wing.
I will be building up a prop construction jig and I fancy a go at one with tissue tubes at the root so I can fiddle with pitch.

I think the thrust bearing interface could also do with some improvements as I fell there is a lot of friction there when under tension.

It's all very interesting and great fun and I appreciate the help and guidance from this forum.

Si
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