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Author Topic: Keil Kraft Ace  (Read 1841 times)
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Flyguy
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« on: July 08, 2017, 12:57:35 PM »

I've seen a lot of threads on Keil Kraft kits, and the Ace is mentioned in a few, but I didn't see any on the Ace itself so I thought I'd post a short thread while I build it. Nice kit, went together really fast! Pretty much built straight out of the kit with some minor changes. Looks like a good flyer, good wing area, fuselage is streamlined and even slightly longer than the Lanzo.

You can probably see that I didn't bother to notch the trailing edge for the wing or stab, not a fan of that. I also extended the nose sheeting about 1/2". I changed the wing mount slightly - the V of the wing still fits in a V in the front, nice and streamlined, 5th photo, but I raised the last V to be on top of the crosspiece, to reduce the wing incidence. It just seems too much; if I'm wrong I can just lower down the trailing edge later. I also put two 1/16 x 1/8 strips at the bottom of the first two V's, so that the covering is secure and doesn't get pulled up when I shrink it.

Nose is ready for a gizmo button; last photo shows the separate rudder which is ready to be removed and hinged. Nice relaxing build!
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Keil Kraft Ace
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PeeTee
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2017, 02:33:35 PM »

Very nice too!

It takes me back to the good old days of the 1955's when I built one. I'll watch with interest !

Peter

















i
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Flyguy
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 04:23:40 PM »

Thanks Peter - that's the year I was born by the way! Should be able to get it out flying in a month or two, curious as always to see how it goes, looks like a good flyer to me!
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gossie
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 06:29:57 PM »

KK ACE was the first model I won with in 1953.  I won 5 pounds.  Was a lot for a kid going to school.

I built another one nearly 40 years ago.  Still have it.  Has been flown hundreds of times.  Even won the Victorian Garnham trophy back in 1983 I think it was?Huh?
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Flyguy
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 07:50:12 PM »

Looks nice gossie, especially considering its age, sounds like it was popular in the 50s! These good reports motivate me to get it finished.
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glidermaster
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 10:56:22 PM »

I've built 2; the first then I was a kid in about 1970. It was OK,  but I used the KK plastic prop, which wasn't a bad prop, but was pretty heavy. It had quite the chunk of lead and plasticine in the tail. More recently I built another with a carved balsa prop, and it flies great on 12 strands of 1/8" tan Super Sport. I should try it on 10 strands, for more gentle flights.

John
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gossie
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 12:03:11 AM »

My first one used the KK plastic prop.
 This one I had a 12 in balsa prop. that I won somewhere or other, and used that with SENATOR motors......30 grams X 6 strands of 1/4, or 8 strands of 3/32 or like J.B. 12 strands of 1/8th.

These things are not SENATORS, but they do fly okay, and are great down the park as such.   I have no D/T on it.
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 01:07:08 AM »

On mine which I built about 20 years ago I added an extra piece in the cabin top (a la Korda Wakefield) so I could tissue cover the cabin top, a couple of extra gussets around the nose, plug in undercarriage, balsa prop, 15 gram of rubber (8 strands of 1/8) and it is a lovely flyer. OK its not a Senator but on a calm day a great sight slowly rising in a thermal, I will have to get it down from the loft again!! 
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billdennis747
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 04:35:12 AM »

KK ACE was the first model I won with in 1953.  I won 5 pounds.  Was a lot for a kid going to school.

You won five pounds in 1953? I didn't even see a pound note until 1960!
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 05:17:27 AM »

I imagine you did need to be on the planet to be able to see one Bill. Smiley

It's a nice looking model Larry - a bit like a large KK Elf except for the wing LE sweep. I'm guessing this one with reduced incidence and further aft Cg may not be quite as sedate on the climb.

I'm interested in seeing how it does compare with your opt her models Larry.

John
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billdennis747
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 06:39:23 AM »

I imagine you did need to be on the planet to be able to see one Bill. Smiley
I spent my pound on a Dinky Tank Transporter but you could have bought the entire KK Flying Scale range!
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daveh
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 09:56:47 AM »

I spent my pound on a Dinky Tank Transporter but you could have bought the entire KK Flying Scale range!

Did it fly as well as the KK range Bill?

Dave
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Flyguy
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 01:57:27 PM »

Thanks for the feedback everybody, it's very helpful!

I've built 2; the first then I was a kid in about 1970. It was OK,  but I used the KK plastic prop, which wasn't a bad prop, but was pretty heavy. It had quite the chunk of lead and plasticine in the tail. More recently I built another with a carved balsa prop, and it flies great on 12 strands of 1/8" tan Super Sport. I should try it on 10 strands, for more gentle flights.

John

Thanks John, so with the balsa prop, you didn't need to add tail weight or did it still need some?

My first one used the KK plastic prop.
 This one I had a 12 in balsa prop. that I won somewhere or other, and used that with SENATOR motors......30 grams X 6 strands of 1/4, or 8 strands of 3/32 or like J.B. 12 strands of 1/8th.

These things are not SENATORS, but they do fly okay, and are great down the park as such.   I have no D/T on it.

I'm making some 12" Senator balsa props to use with it (seems appropriate); I also have some 12" Hurricane props and a generic 12" balsa prop. For my other planes with 12" balsa props, I usually use 12-14 strands of 1/8th (about 24" long), so your 12 strands sounds right - the plan actually calls for 16 of 1/8th (actually 8 strands of 1/4 x 24"), seems overpowered to me!

It's a nice looking model Larry - a bit like a large KK Elf except for the wing LE sweep. I'm guessing this one with reduced incidence and further aft Cg may not be quite as sedate on the climb.

I'm interested in seeing how it does compare with your opt her models Larry.

John
Thanks John, I reduced the incidence as you note in the hopes that I can get the steep climb like my other planes, curious to see what happens, should be a learning experience!

I'm a little worried about smoothly attaching the windshield, so I extended the V in the front slightly (room for the LE of the wing) and then glued a 1/16 x 1/8 strip so that I'll have something nice and flat to glue the windshield to, photos attached.


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DaddyO
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2017, 04:56:34 AM »

I remember one being used to great effect in mini-vintage a few years back.
There were some details in the SAM 35 mag at the time giving set up. I recall that it was set up with a considerable amount of tip wash out and used the banzai climb to great effect since the glide isn't as good as some of the others in the class. I may be mistaken, but think the prop was a bit of a toothpick (ie no great width on the blades) That being the case I'd suggest the blank from the Blackpool Rock might be a better choice for ultimate performance.
All a bit academic if you are just flying for fun (and what flying isn't?)  Grin
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Flyguy
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 02:04:41 PM »

It's fun alright! I also like the 'academic' part that using altimeters brings to the hobby, in that it gives you info about the plane itself, apart from one's ability to pick good air (as needed to win contests!). For example, for each oldtimer, I have records of how high it got, how long the motor run was, and what the climb rate was for different prop and rubber combinations, so after awhile you have fairly detailed info on the performance of different props (and I could never tell that a prop got me up an extra 10 feet simply by watching the flight). I also have records on the sink rate. So, for example, if I know the plane can get up to about 220 feet on a 44 sec motor run and the sink rate is about -2.7 ft/sec (realistic figures), then I know the glide time will be 220/2.7 = 81 secs, and so the flight time in dead air is 44+81 = 125. Kind of cuts through all the BS!

In any case, it makes fun flying more interesting in that you get to know how exactly how each plane performs, I always look forward to getting out there and getting some new data!
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2017, 07:33:46 PM »

Which of the models rules for climb and which for sink rate Larry?

John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 02:00:45 PM »

That's a tough question to answer John for several reasons, like I'm not sure some of the planes are optimally trimmed yet, I'm still experimenting, so I could change my mind later, and I need to get more data! However, for now I can say that the Lanzo cabin and the Sky Gull appear to be top contenders - as it appears now, they consistently get higher altitudes (well over 200 ft) and the sink rates are both very good, maybe around -2.5 ft/sec. I only have a few good data points for each so far, but you can easily max out with these two planes.

Comet pepper is also looking good, but I've only gotten to fly it a few times (too many planes). Hurricane with new motor really blasted up there (250 ft), but the sink rate is a little higher, maybe around -2.8, as expected, since it's heavier and the wing loading is higher than the others. Pacific Ace has a nice glide, but I can just get it up to 200 ft.; I think maybe I could get higher performance with a wood prop (bigger and lighter weight). Black Bullet has good climb (over 200 ft) but the sink rate appears to be a little higher.

Time-wise, from my experience, I think its safe to say that the Pacific Ace, Comet Pepper, Hurricane, and Black Bullet can consistently do 2 minutes in dead air, Lanzo and the Sky Gull can do 2 1/2 - 3 mins in dead air. I'm sure the pros could do even better with these planes!

Forgot to mention - in fairness to the planes, I'm only referring to the rubber RC versions, which have about 8-10 grams added equipment weight, not FF versions.
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2017, 08:34:28 PM »

Thanks for that Larry. It seems to confirm that you trim your models well. Anything over 2 mins in still air is pretty good to my eyes.

cheers
John
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Flyguy
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2017, 09:52:38 PM »

Thanks John, it's all about the trimming, I like that challenge! One really has to have everything just about perfect to hit that 2 min minimum (thermal-free), takes me awhile to get the plane to that point.

I've always thought that the decision to make 2 minutes a max (sorry, I don't know the history of that, but it would be interesting) seems to be a decision made by expert modelers with lots of flying experience - they knew that getting to 1 1/2 minutes was really good but that getting to 2 min really required some expertise.
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 04:34:24 AM »

From the view point of my limited experience in this area - trimming for the burst while still retaining a good glide would be the ultimate test.

The skill required to achieve this with contest dictated limits on the motor weight and model minimum weight, makes the challenge worth while in my eyes and I'm a RC glider flyer predominately Smiley Also a fan of PGI/TOP trimming and hope to put it to the test one day.

John.

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Flyguy
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2017, 01:15:25 PM »

Thanks John, that reminds me to read the NFFS digest on PGI trimming, now that I have some time off, though my top priority is to get out flying again!

Ready to start covering the Ace, photos below. Made the usual plug-in landing gear; since this is a Nostalgia design I used streamlined wheels. The equipment is in the bottom, with a lid held on in the same way that I did it for the Sky Gull. I like that because you can check the battery without removing the wing, plus I think it's better because it gives a lower CG. I also put on a tail skid so that the balsa doesn't get sanded down by the concrete. The servo will be mounted on the side as I've done the last few planes. I also added in some 1/16" x 3/32" diagonal braces on the fuselage just to be sure it doesn't twist at all. I started covering the fuselage, still have to finish sanding the wing/stab and we'll get those going. I also have almost finished a 12" KK Competitor prop, doping on glass cloth now. Should be able to get it out flying soon!
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Flyguy
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2017, 01:41:42 PM »

Got the fuselage covered, polyspan lite, three coats of 50% thinned nitrate. Next I'm covering the rudder/stab with 1/4 mil mylar and attaching to the fuselage, then painting that assembly. Nice relaxing build!
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2017, 09:20:15 AM »

Your projects are always fascinating and the level of craftsmanship is unsurpassed.  I built an all sheet KK Sportster last fall and it reminded me that things aren't always as simple as they appear! I know you built a number of other vintage designs, mainly of US origin, so can I predict you will now be working your way through the Keil Kraft, Frog and Veron lines as well?
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Flyguy
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2017, 03:16:28 PM »

Thanks! Who knows what's next, that's part of the fun, I often change my mind at the last minute before starting. I have the kit for the KK competitor and have been having fun looking at the various kits at VMC; the Ace kit was nice, went together well and I like the design, hoping to get it out to the field in the next few weeks. I've even been working a little on a scale model, though I'm not a scale builder!
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2017, 03:50:58 PM »

Fly guy, I like your builds and your brickwall...I had a similar place in Wilmington DE. By any chance did I see you in this months Model Aviation? IMHO its a useless rag, but I skim it in the men's room, to help things out  Roll Eyes I seem to recall the background buildings in your videos! I just got a Pepper plan off Applehoney, and as soo as I clear the debris off the work top I want to do it.
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