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Author Topic: VMC Sopwith Camel General-Purpose Cook-Up In/Outdoor Wa'ever Thread  (Read 7548 times)
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2017, 01:45:47 PM »

Wot?  so not the Messiah after all?
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2017, 02:22:08 PM »

Strangely enough, I caught the end of what seemed to be some kind of tribute evening to the various Python members on the Yesterday channel last night (just before retiring to bed with that 1956 Aeromodeller). It included Cleese introducing an episode of Fawlty Towers. I'm not sure that absolutely all of the Python stuff has stood the test of time, but Basil Fawlty in full unhinged flow will never not be funny!
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2017, 03:37:20 PM »

when I was about 13 a friend's mother and his deeply strait laced older sister took us out to the aero club for a film night to see a wholesome and inspirational movie that they had been told was based on the life of Jesus.  Little did they know.  They were horrified but we couldn't believe our luck!!
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Pete Fardell
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« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2017, 04:15:36 PM »

Just to get back to Camels for a minute- I do actually have a KK Camel kit which I got very cheap in a charity shop a few years ago. It looks to be fairly all there, but I'm not sure if it's complete as the parts have all been cut out and are just loose in the box. The plan is certainly there along with the half wheel cowling and 'smart prop'. If anyone wants it, let me know as I'm never going to build it. The wood is hard and heavy, so I could maybe poach bits when I occasionally need balsa with such characteristics. It seems a bit of a shame though if someone actually wants the whole thing. I don't want anything for it.
There's some yellow and white sheets of tissue in it which look like good stuff, so I may keep those.
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2017, 05:00:34 PM »

I was just noticing that the KK Camel and the Guillow Camel were both released in the late '50s.  I've heard that the Guillow Camel can be made to fly although I find it hard to credit.   18" span and it certainly looks Camelish.  We Yanks were supposed to put the Cox .010 in them.  Of course the 25% Nitro fuel would melt the finish and the plastic cowl too but you did get a lot of noise with the combination.
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« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2017, 02:37:21 AM »

Back around 1964 I did get the Guillow's camel to fly with a Cox .010 on the front. The plastic cowl had to be left off as the prop tips only extended about 1/4" beyond it. It was heavy, having been built from the wood and tissue in the kit and finished with brushed on unthinned Aero Gloss clear followed by white and green and a coat of fuel proofer.
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2017, 10:32:14 AM »

Just noticed that (the VMC version of) the Camel has 3deg incidence on the upper wings and 2deg on the lower ones - I assume to keep the model flying on the lower wings, albeit in something of a descent, until the upper wings recover from any stall condition?  Whereas the full-size would have had equal incidence, I assume.

Just out of idle and purely academic interest, what would be the effect of reversing this difference in incidence on a model, so that the upper wings keep flying after the lower ones have stalled?
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ZK-AUD
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« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2017, 01:52:24 PM »

Jon that's a really big discussion that'll get people going for weeks!  Suffice it to say that there are 2 schools of thought.  Personally I prefer my biplanes set up the other way with the lower wing having a little more than the top assuming positive stagger.  That's what seems to work for me but others will swear by the opposite
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Andrew Darby
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« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2017, 04:09:06 PM »

My belief is that as the top wings begin to stall and loose lift the bottom ones (at a lower incidence) continue to provide lift but further back from the CG than the average when both wings are being effective, therefore pitching the nose down more than otherwise would be the case that the action of the tailplane etc...  I think that this helps pitch stability, although effeciency is reduced as neither wings is ever at its best incidence under normal conditions..I rated the stability over outright performance for these models, so that's the way I went.

Like ZK said, some people go with equal equal and the other extreme but it's just the way I like to go as it seems to work for me.

So I suppose that makes three schools of thought?

Andrew
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2017, 04:35:41 PM »

Yes Andrew, I see the logic of that entirely.  I'd trade a little bit of efficiency for increased stability in a FF model.

The question arose in my mind when I was perusing various drawings of WW1 biplane models (as one does).  I had come across a pre-war plan of an SE5a which seemed otherwise particularly accurate, except that the lower wing had an incidence of 7deg  Shocked  while the top one was 5 deg.  This looked quite wrong and I questioned in my mind how it would work in flight, so I checked the 3-view drawings of the full-size which showed an equal 5deg on both wings.  By Andrew's logic above then, and the ratio of 3:2 used on his Camel, a random SE5a model could better have an incidence of 3deg on the lower wing against 5deg on the upper - or less on both but in the same ratio?  I don't know what the VMC SE5a actually has.
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Andrew Darby
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« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2017, 04:43:58 PM »

They all of three degrees on the only or top wing by default - following the Darby rule of thumb and nothing else...

Andrew
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« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2017, 08:14:36 AM »

Got to the first interesting bit - how to adapt the nose area for a Gasparin CO2 motor, and which one?

I'm hoping the smaller G-43, weighing in at 7g, has enough poke to get the Camel off the ground and airborne for a reliable minimum of 15 or so secs point-scoring flights... the objective being not coming last in Indoor Kit Scale! Shocked

The motor would be mounted inverted, with a bit of down and right thrust, a few mm forward of F3 on some sort of additional bulkhead.  Its casing then just fits through the lasered square hole (for the removable rubber-powered nose-block, which itself can be made as per plan with dummy cylinders but with a different method of locating it in place).  But tweaking the 'throttle' setting (by rotating the cylinder minute fractions and re-locking it down at the base-collar) would necessitate removing the prop each time to get the nose-block off, which would be quite tedious!  The alternative is to semi-permanently fix the top half of the nose-block in place and have a removable bottom half held on with a couple of micro-magnets.

If the G-43 proves too weedy for the job, then Plan B is to retro-fit a G-63.  This is about 50% bigger in size and weight, as well as capacity, so would need to be mounted further back on a bulkhead directly in line with F3 - see third photo below - but I'm wary of adding weight and bulk if I can help it.

Talking of weight... this is robustly-designed kit, with a good difference in weight and stiffness between the hard and soft laser-cut sheets.  Flying surfaces have all already been glued up with nowt sanded off beforehand (I was eager to crack on), but I think I can legitimately get away with some obsessive-compulsive sanding of sub-assemblies before covering.  Grin

Jon

PS In addition to colour-coding parts on the drawing photocopies so I can see the wood for the trees (a personal failing not a criticism), the last piccie below shows my cunning end-grain colouring technique for not mixing up the supply of hard and soft 1/16th stringers!
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« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2017, 09:27:25 AM »


> ...but I think I can legitimately get away with some obsessive-compulsive sanding
> of sub-assemblies before covering.  Smiley

I think you might have to have a clinical diagnosis of OCD in order for that to have any chance of carrying any weight with the judges. Personally, I was just going to claim that I "got a bit carried away" and make a plea for leniency as it's a first offence...  Smiley

Andy
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« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2017, 03:51:11 PM »

... the objective being not coming last in Indoor Kit Scale! Shocked
I knew there was a good reason I only build for fun.

Quote from: Jack Plane
PS In addition to colour-coding parts on the drawing photocopies so I can see the wood for the trees (a personal failing not a criticism), the last piccie below shows my cunning end-grain colouring technique for not mixing up the supply of hard and soft 1/16th stringers!
Or you could just put them in separate envelopes labelled "hard" and "soft"?  The envelopes being totally reusable1 for the next umpteen builds. Wink

In other news from the manufacturing behemoth that is Lurker Industries; work on the replacement noseblock continues but slowly.  Lots and lots of careful and slow sanding to shape for the laminations.  Nearly there with four main discs.  Have the rough blanks for the engine centre.  Am starting to cast covetous eyes over the adverts for laser and craft cutters.

1 - I'm not tight with my cash, merely careful.
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« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2017, 04:55:00 PM »

Jack,
        I think you will be better off with the GM63 for the size of model. It will allow a lower throttle setting and the weight will not be an issue with the Camel as they normally need nose weight even with CO2. I have a 20" McHard Hurricane with a Telco and that just balances out with the tank behind the motor. When it was rubber powered it required about 10 gm of nose weight.  ZK-AUD has a fair amount of nose weight in his KK Camel and about 4 deg of downthrust.
Ricky
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« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2017, 01:39:56 AM »

Thanks for the heads-up Ricky.  Lower throttle good, working nose-weight also good.

Dan Mellor used the 63 in his VMC Tiger Moth 18".  He said the 43 might just be feasible depending on model weight, but I'll keep it mint for a lighter model and go with the 63 in the Camel.

Cheers

Jon

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« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2017, 03:13:58 AM »

Jack,
        I have converted an Aerographics Moth Minor (24") to CO2 with a good Telco that is in the finishing stages and looks to be a good fit. with room for an upright tank. Experience with the Comper's suggests the tank works better when near vertical. Also make sure there is access to the motor for oiling, I have been caught out on a couple of models over that. I look forward to seeing your Camel. Any preferences for colour schemes?
Ricky   
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Jack Plane
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« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2017, 06:29:19 AM »

Ricky, you're right, I should get myself a couple of working Telcos, just right for this size of model.  Any idea what they weigh?

Re colour scheme, I've got some sheets of domestic brown and sandy-tan tissue for the undersides, so that's the basic scheme sorted as I prefer the brown to the green in the kit.  Some Camels had the green-brown PC10 (in whatever hue!) right forward to the cowling, others (like ZK-AUD's subject) had bare metal cowlings etc and some had varnished wood areas around the cockpit area, and it seems that some were really quite colourful!

I'm waiting for my copy of the Datafile to arrive in the post before making a final decision.  Half the fun for me - without going down the spray painting route - is to work out what can be done with coloured tissue and a few daubs of brushed-on acrylic without over-egging the pudding!  Grin
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2017, 09:41:05 PM »

Half the fun for me - without going down the spray painting route - is to work out what can be done with coloured tissue and a few daubs of brushed-on acrylic without over-egging the pudding!  Grin
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« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2017, 10:41:45 PM »

Started on the replacement nose block today.  No dowel for the cylinders.  Oh... bother!  Never mind I do have some 1/2" block.  Herewith fresh from The Lurker Industries Dowel, Rod and Wire Manufactory some freshly made dowel.  That's not interesting,  but I thought (hoped?) the manufacturing process might be.  

It's not a novel technique.  Jewellers have been making gold and other wire for centuries using the same basic idea, push or pull a softer material through a cutting face made of a harder material, I just hadn't thought of applying it to balsa.  Leaving aside thinking time and time spent rummaging for an appropriate cutting face (that's a posh way of saying "the bottom of a soup tin") and preparing it; it only took quarter or hour or so to get from block to dowel.  It's an awful lot quicker and more accurate than trying to sand it to shape.

You do need to cut the block to just over-size and carefully trim back the "shoulders" that form as you go. Just take it steady and it's a piece of cake.


On my Camel I cheated and pasted on a really good picture of a Clerget that I found on line somewhere - it actually looks really good from a foot away.  Another good lurk for the Lurker is the bendy bits from plastic straws.  There are some good pictures on my Peanut Sommer Monoplane thread.  I used the smaller diameter for Peanut but the bigger ones are right for the Camel...  http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=20734.0


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« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2017, 03:13:00 AM »

Quote from: ZK-AUD
On my Camel I cheated and pasted on a really good picture of a Clerget that I found on line somewhere...
The thought did cross my mind, but that wouldn't be cricket and my penance1 for being a thoughtless clot is to do it the hard way. Smiley  The bendy straws though? That it is a stroke of genius. Thanks for that. Duly filed away for future use. And the aeroplane the motor is fitted to is very, very pretty.

1 - About 7 hours in to my "penance" and I have NB1-4 (plan refs) shaped and sanded to size, the dowel - unthreaded - and the engine centre blanks glued together and very roughly shaped.  The Lurker Industries main manufactory is now closed for the Autumn Fair Fortnight and work won't resume until the plant reopens so I can't see me getting the Camel airborne again this year.  

Domestic quote of the week last night - I'll leave you to imagine the exasperated tone,  "Oh do buy a laser cutter. I don't want balsa dust all over my sink."  Permission duly noted and filed away. Smiley

Wandering slightly OT but sticking with the theme of rotary engines.  I was looking at the Airfix 1/72 Glos. Gladiator in mid 1930s 73 Squadron colours sitting on my desk and it struck me that that it'd nice to have a flying version. And now that VMC have a source of good silver tissue....  Paging Mr. Darby. Paging Mr. Darby.   Would Mr. Darby please take a call on the white courtesy telephone.
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« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2017, 07:20:17 AM »

Domestic quote of the week last night - I'll leave you to imagine the exasperated tone,  "Oh do buy a laser cutter. I don't want balsa dust all over my sink."  Permission duly noted and filed away. Smiley

Very impressed with this. I've been trying to think of a way of getting Mrs B to even mention a laser cutter, but it's not the sort of thing that comes up in casual conversation and I have to be extremely careful when showing pictures from magazines because she has very sensitive antennae if she thinks she's being steered...

Andy
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« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2017, 08:50:02 AM »




Mark, I'm still trying to decode that picture!  Any background info?
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Mark Braunlich
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« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2017, 09:07:46 AM »

Jack,
I'm off to Muncie for some weekend model flying.  I will be back on Monday and will try to dig out some info on the Ruston Proctor Camel.
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« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2017, 10:30:23 AM »

Peter Rake did an electric RC Camel in that scheme. Plan and article is in Flying Scale Models July 2008. Not sure how much it tells you about the colours though. I might have that issue in my pile somewhere so will check later.
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