Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
November 19, 2017, 05:24:27 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Glue  (Read 1149 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
The Wuffler
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 14

Topic starter


Ignore
« on: September 11, 2017, 03:24:00 PM »

Sorry if this is a novice question but I`ve recently restarted hacking gluing balsa together and am not having much success.

I make my living working with wood and so, have big bottles of Titebond Original knocking about the place but having tried it on balsa (applied in small doses with a cocktail stick), the joints seem to come apart too easily (usually when sanding leading and trailing edges).

Would I be right in thinking that if I thin it a little, it will penetrate better or is Titebond hopeless for model building?

Cheers,
Pete.
Logged
flydean1
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 413



Ignore
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2017, 05:26:18 PM »

Titebond is considered one of the finest possible balsa model glues.  Yes, it needs to be thinned, at least 25%, but some recommend more.  Try a few sample joints at different dilutions and see for yourself what works best for you.

I used 25% on my peanuts for joints, and thinned 50% for attaching tissue.  Lately glue sticks have become more fashionable for attaching tissue.
Logged
MKelly
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 27
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 463




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2017, 05:46:22 PM »

I've used Titebond II for my last 6 balsa models and love it.  I use it undiluted from a kid-size Elmer's glue bottle, and use a bamboo skewer to spread the glue when necessary and to remove any squeeze-out.
Logged
PB_guy
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 7
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 383


Just a kid at heart.



Ignore
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2017, 08:20:59 PM »

double-gluing end grain can help. Let the glue soak into the end grain, then re-apply glue and join.
ian
Logged
Jack Plane
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 15
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 710




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2017, 01:31:15 AM »

Given the minute quantities of glue needed for balsa model-making, a single 112g bottle of Aliphatic resin will last you for years and is used neat. It dries quicker than PVA and is easier to sand:  https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/gb/rc-modelling/64-aliphatic-resin-112g-5060243900074.html

I decant mine into little plastic bottles (wot my vape liquid comes in) then squeeze just what I need each time into used bottle tops (wot my beer comes in) and apply using a straightened out paper-clip.

By the way, a much less risky way of sanding delicate sub-assemblies like peanut wings, where any snagging or flex could weaken joints, is to make a 'grippy' base from a sheet of 400grit wet&dry glued to an MDF base of the same size, then make a smaller sanding stick about 35x200mm from 6mm MDF with 400 on one face and 600 on the other (trim the edges flush so they're really crisp and round the corners slightly to prevent snagging).  Hold the wings down lightly with the edge to be sanded overhanging the grippy-base slightly and delicately work the sanding-stick up and down

For sanding smaller components, Boots do cheap packs of disposable girlie nail-files (the files not the women!), rough on one side smoother on the other.

Jon

PS - What Peanut are you doing?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 02:48:10 AM by Jack Plane » Logged
lincoln
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 28
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,613



Ignore
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2017, 01:52:06 AM »

Sorry if this is a novice question but I`ve recently restarted hacking gluing balsa together and am not having much success.

I make my living working with wood and so, have big bottles of Titebond Original knocking about the place but having tried it on balsa (applied in small doses with a cocktail stick), the joints seem to come apart too easily (usually when sanding leading and trailing edges).

Would I be right in thinking that if I thin it a little, it will penetrate better or is Titebond hopeless for model building?

Cheers,
Pete.

Could your glue be getting old? It does go bad eventually, faster if abused. If your glue hasn't gone bad, I guess a little thinning might help, but isn't the stuff fairly thin when it's new? If you're working from a glob of glue that's in the open, replenish often.

Anyway, usually it's very good for gluing balsa.
Logged
Hepcat
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 207
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,678



Ignore
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2017, 07:29:37 AM »

It may seem strange  but I have found that balsa cement is very good for joining balsa wood.  It can be thinned with Acetone, which is cheap and readily available, to whatever viscosity suits your preference and the job to be done.  It also has the great advantage that the joint can be undone if necessary by the application of acetone.
John
 
Logged
billdennis747
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 36
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2,721



Ignore
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2017, 08:46:51 AM »

What brand, John? I have always used Humbrol but recently it has changed and is no longer sticky or gluey. Bits fall off. I asked them why and they didn´t respond (at least they didn´t say it´s the same as it ever was, as with their magical non-drying red enamel.) I´ve gone over to Uhu Hart after being initially prejudiced when sold Uhu Por in error.
Bill
Logged
DavidJP
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2,084




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2017, 09:25:52 AM »

I have used this one - which is probably ready thinned white or aliphatic glue and it seems to stick quite well and quickly - like a few minutes sufficiently to be handled sensibly but longer obviously for a good joint. Overall though quicker than white of aliphatic glues.  However I found it has a a bit of a rubbery texture on any exposed surfacerosnd the joint.  Not sure I would buy anymore because as has been said the white/aliphatic glues available work well.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Glue
Logged
F F modeller
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 51
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2,998


Russ Lister



Ignore
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2017, 10:08:46 AM »

Not a fan of that glue David ... as you say, it has a rubbery finish and is hard to sand.

I use Gorilla 'white' glue (not that stuff they do that expands!)
In the UK, Wilkinsons stock it at a good price last time I looked.
It's very similar to Titebond 'original'
Logged
vintagemike
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 63



Ignore
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2017, 12:29:53 PM »

There was a rumour going around at the time of its introduction that super phatic was a garcinogen (is that the right word) don't know how true that is (was) but I don't use it because it dries VERY rubbery, I tend to use the white Aliphatic sold by the Balsa cabin under the C I S brand (Couldridge Industrial Supplies) with the brown label. Dries hard, sands well, very strong, can be thinned with water for tissue application.
Logged
lincoln
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 28
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1,613



Ignore
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 05:14:13 PM »

It may seem strange  but I have found that balsa cement is very good for joining balsa wood.  It can be thinned with Acetone, which is cheap and readily available, to whatever viscosity suits your preference and the job to be done.  It also has the great advantage that the joint can be undone if necessary by the application of acetone.
John
 
That's good too. I've built a number of models with it. Usually Ambroid or Duco, though I remember Testor's being ok. I don't know if you have those over there. But in my experience, there's nothing wrong with Titebond and similar yellow carpenter's glues. (Aliphatic?) For that matter, I've had success with Elmers and the like. I've heard it said that Ambroid doesn't interfere with sanding the way other glues do. Or at least that it interferes less. Not sure how well it works joining heavier woods, though. I don't know if it's as strong as Titebond for butt joints. I've seen a balsa wing that had the right and left halves butt glued together with Titebond. It eventually broke, but not at the glue line. The builder was an excellent craftsman, so any gaps were probably miniscule. He said he double glued it. That is, put on a bit of glue, which I think was thinned, wait a few minutes, add more glue and join. I doubt this would work with denser wood or Ambroid.
Logged
The Wuffler
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 14

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2017, 04:42:13 AM »

Thanks for all all the advice.
Using what I have to hand, I think I`ll try double gluing with slightly thinned Titebond and see how I get on.....
At last, I`ve found a plan online for the first peanut kit that I ever managed to make fly (many years ago) which I plan to start building tonight - the Andrew Moorhouse Comper Swift.
Logged
Tapio Linkosalo
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 27
Offline Offline

Finland Finland

Posts: 1,089



Ignore
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2017, 04:46:56 AM »

My vote to balsa glue, too. I use Uhu Hart, thinned 2 parts of glue to 1 part of acetone, and applied from a nose bottle. The thinned glue is quite runny, but as it has plenty of solvent in can be rather deliberately applied, and still does not add much weight. I use the same glue from indoor duration (F1D) to Peanut, and even on some larger balsa building.
Logged
DavidJP
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2,084




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2017, 07:04:26 AM »

At last, I`ve found a plan online for the first peanut kit that I ever managed to make fly (many years ago) which I plan to start building tonight - the Andrew Moorhouse Comper Swift.

I think from what have seen that is a good one but Andrew (who is still active by the way  but does not use a computer) was very meticulous with his designs.  He gave me the plan a while ago and i did ask about "no dihedral" - he is a little shy about it but I think showed it on the plan to make it a little more "Flight friendly".  Choice is yours then - I believe Graham Banham has done one without.

Having enlarged Andrews plan of the Scram to 48ins (half size original) and find that flies superbly I am minded one day to enlarge his Comper Swift plan to say 26ins span.........

Balsa cement - another example surely of how some the old traditions work very well still - been around since God was a boy and still used by so many old hands!  And Tapios' comments are a very good reference for this stuff.

I don't know anything about the phatic glue being carcinogenic but as I said doubt will buy anymore. Also have been exposed to so many things that have subsequently been shown as  carcinogenic that I feel it may be a bit late, given my advanced years.  The only merit is that it "grabs" quickly,  but outweighed by the latex finish. 
Logged
Hepcat
Platinum Member
******

Kudos: 207
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1,678



Ignore
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2017, 08:08:44 AM »

Mainly a response to #7.
Bill,
I used 'Ambroid' for years when it was readilly available. I have used 'Duco' which John Hook says is similar and I don't argue with that. Ihave also use 'Uhu' recently because it is readily available from the hobby section of my local Garden Centre, again it works fine.  I am amazed that this search for a 'silver bullet' to join two pieces of balsa wood together goes on and on.  I suppose I first used balsa cement in the 1930s when kits had tiny glass phials with a bit of cement inside.  It worked well then and it still does. The fact that it blends so well with acetone give it a usefulness that the alternatives can't match.

I know that I sound like an old man who will not move with the times.  That is true as far as the fact that I do think balsa cement is the best thing for joining balsa.  What may surprise you is that quite often recently I have marvelled at the achievements in adhesives. This is not just how strong some of them are but how well the stickiness is controlled.
John.
 
Logged
DHnut
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 4
Offline Offline

New Zealand New Zealand

Posts: 380



Ignore
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2017, 07:28:47 PM »

David,
          I must finish the Moorhouse Comper, it is covered and ready to finish with a weight of just over 6 gm at the moment. The major item required is a prop that needs to be finished. I have also built a 26" version that is CO2 powered with a GM120. This is the first one I built and flew at the Britiah Nationals. Weight was about 90 gms and it was nose heavy with a dummy engine but flies well. If you need to be fussy tail outlines are not quite right and the fuel tank area is also simplified.
I have also built two of his 24" Scram's for Telcos, one of which has been lost in big thermal.  
I met Andrew at this years Nationals and had a chat with him after a gap of 50 odd years! He has not changed.    
 Ricky

Logged
F4FGuy
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 4
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 29



Ignore
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 02:11:39 AM »

DHNut,and others who may be interested;
Adhesives are IMHO all good for balsa. That said, some are more "good" than others. the aliphatics are strong and easy to use but, unless application is very carefully controlled, can add a lot of weight. They also can cause swelling and subsequent distortion in the structure. CYA (ZAP)  is fast very strong, and difficult to control, and, relatively, extremely heavy. Epoxies Have no place in a balsa structure unless molded fibers are involved. The winner, in every way is cellulose or butyrate, aromatic solvent based glue. Duco is my favorite,followed closely by Ambroid.I've not tried any of the European brands, but I'd expect them to be the same.  The reasons are many, but primary is weight of the finished joint.  Next is extreme ease of control in application and the ease of double gluing. Strength is not a consideration with any of the adhesives, since any of them will develop the full strength of the wood in a properly made joint. Contrary to popular opinion, extreme penetration of the joint is not necessary. A few thou is enough. The fit is many times more important. Gaps of more than a few thou simply fill up with glue as extra weight. Ideally, the only reason for glue is to increase the fibers molecular attraction on one side to the fibers on the other. Of course it seldom works exactly like that but, that's the theory. all of this is really a long winded way of saying DUCO is best! One more thing, double gluing is not to get more glue in the joint, it's to ensure the surfaces are completely covered, with no gaps. It's best done by applying adhesive, then wiping the joint almost dry to remove excess glue. Allow to dry to the touch then add final coat of glue and join parts tightly.

Ron Burn F4FGuy
Logged
weetle
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 162


Forgets to take pictures frequently



Ignore
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 01:12:22 PM »

I use Titebond II thinned down, and Sig Bond thinned down.
Logged
Don McLellan
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 47
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 2,195




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2017, 07:52:56 PM »

Agree with Ron Burn!! 

Any models I've built with Duco or Ambroid have had lighter and stronger joints, resulting in usually a lighter model.  Plus, I can spray tissue with water and not worry about aliphatic glues semi coming apart.  Thinned Duco or Ambroid also sands a world easier than the (gummy) aliphatic glues I've tried. 

As mentioned elsewhere, I've convinced one of the last brick and mortar hobby shops in my area to bring in Duco, and any time I visit, I always buy at least two or three tubes.  Great Stuff!!
Logged
fred
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 265



Ignore
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2017, 08:58:41 PM »

Semi agree.
 Although..Ambroid as sold today ...IF you can find it...
 is similar to the Ambroid of 40 yrs ago only in it's packaging.
 Similar tube, Very dissimilar contents.
I still have One carefully hoarded 40 yr old tube, Used to use Ambroid to bond Metal fuel tanks to wooden structure in Stunt Ships..  incredibly solidly (chisel  was needed to remove/salvage the things)
 A couple from 20 yrs ago  Those  are barely able to secure a tin fuel tank, the one from 5 or 6 years ago. I won't trust with Balsa.
There was a reformulation ~20 yrs ago and the quality dropped significantly.
 Then it was reformulated .. yet again.. it's now only a reminder of what it used to be.
 Watered Titebond  dispensed out of a ~1 oz plastic bottle with a tiny metal tube spout, simply works / holds better in MY experiences.
Logged
F4FGuy
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 4
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 29



Ignore
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 07:24:38 PM »

Fred,

I would agree that today's Ambroid is not the same formulation. The question, however, wasn't about bond strength, it was re balsa bonding. As I said above any of the adhesives mentioned so far will develop better tensile strength than any useable weight balsa. Therefore weight of the cured joint and ease of use are the  pertinent factors. Ambroid and Duco meet these requirements better than any of the others. I, personally, would never trust any adhesive to bond a tank or any other functioning metal part to one of my stunters, which represent 200 - 400 hrs. off work.

Ron Burn  (F4FGuy)
Logged
modler
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 3
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 138


FAC member



Ignore
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 08:50:00 PM »

The SIG-MENT glue I use is the same as the old Ambroid. My tubes are about 25 years old so it may have been re-formulated also.

http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGSM001.html

Bill G.
Logged

Old model building joke: "Build two identical sides!!!"
The Wuffler
Bronze Member
***

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 14

Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2017, 08:41:12 AM »

Thankyou all for the tips......The Comper is coming along nicely and I thinned Titebond to around 70:30.....Much better  Smiley

I`ve used UHU glue stik for the tissue and that seems to work nicely with the added advantage that it`s easy to remove wrinkly Esaki with a good splash of water.....I have much to re-learn!
Logged
Jack Plane
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 15
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 710




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2017, 03:04:18 PM »

Well done Pete.  Do show us some pics when you're ready  Smiley

Jon
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!