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Author Topic: First Attempt at Electric CL  (Read 313 times)
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ScienceGuy
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« on: November 20, 2017, 03:53:17 PM »

I pretty much started with control line as a kid, maybe a couple a simple FF's before that. This past year I decided to try control line again as I use electric for free flight and RC. As I was busy with the other types of models it got rather late in the season but I tried to fly my electric control line yesterday in too much wind.

Pictures and more details in my blog article: http://scienceguyorg.blogspot.com/2017/11/adventures-in-electric-control-line.html

Bill Kuhl
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bgrove
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 06:00:19 PM »

Hi Scienceguy:

I also have tried a electric conversion of a control line plane - a .049 combat kitten (Like the Lil Satan).  I haven't flown it yet.

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=22436.0
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Konrad
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 07:17:39 PM »

I pretty much started with control line as a kid, maybe a couple a simple FF's before that. This past year I decided to try control line again as I use electric for free flight and RC. As I was busy with the other types of models it got rather late in the season but I tried to fly my electric control line yesterday in too much wind.

Pictures and more details in my blog article: http://scienceguyorg.blogspot.com/2017/11/adventures-in-electric-control-line.html

Bill Kuhl

I too made the same mistake thinking I could fly for 2 minutes (got real sick!). I found it best for the old brain to start with 30 second motor runs. I also like to use proven designs when starting a new adventure. http://www.stevensaero.com/Control-Line-Sport-Models/
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 11:02:20 AM »

I just received a couple of free flight gliders from Stevens Aero, really nice looking kits but maybe a little more expensive.

I think I can handle the spinning around if not too fast. There is a ridge I have been doing the dynamic soaring from and I fly to the outside of myself like a control line. Have done over 100 laps that way.

https://youtu.be/SfNPn90B3To

Bill
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Konrad
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 11:44:47 AM »

Sorry you lost me. How does DS relate to CL flying? OK both are circular but that is about all I see. My aim when flying CL it to keep the ship above the horizon Shocked  not so much with DS Roll Eyes .

 I also fly RC Pylon with 6 to 8 second lap times with me inside the course. This had relevance for me when it came to trying CL after being away for 25 to 30 years.
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 11:57:59 AM »

Like with flying pylon one is constantly turning around, in my clip I was turning a little shorter than I did after more experience.

There are people doing the DS with control line planes.

https://youtu.be/xaXXALydd20   Completely inside the circle in this one.

Back to the control line, I should plan to try 52 foot lines instead of 60 feet. I have memories now of flying .15 glow powered plane on too long of lines and having slack. I just thought I would not have to spin so fast on 60 foot lines.

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Konrad
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 12:33:29 PM »

Like with flying pylon one is constantly turning around, in my clip I was turning a little shorter than I did after more experience.

There are people doing the DS with control line planes.

https://youtu.be/xaXXALydd20   Completely inside the circle in this one.

Back to the control line, I should plan to try 52 foot lines instead of 60 feet. I have memories now of flying .15 glow powered plane on too long of lines and having slack. I just thought I would not have to spin so fast on 60 foot lines.

In my case the experience of flying in RC circles gave me no benefit when flying in the CL circle. I was sick at the end of the "short" 2 minute motor run.

DS with CL I'd like to see, heck even try that. I assume the guys are reeling the plane out, like fly fishing. The drag from the lines doesn't  kill the dynamic effect? I

And yes too long a set of line destroys line tension with subsequent loss of control. I found that with longer lines I had to use more tip weight to counter balance the lines. I like to use line rake to adjust line tension.
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 12:40:16 PM »

Maybe I need to spin around for 2 minutes and see what happens. I cannot take the high gravity carnival rides but never had a problem flying control line.  When we were kids we would fly on 15 foot lines in the front yard, but that was 50 years ago. ouch.

I thought maybe having the torque to the outside of the circle with electric would be a big help.  The vertical fin on this plane is not very big either, combat planes have none but fly real fast.

I will get it figured out.

Bill Kuhl
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TimWescott
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 02:46:16 PM »

Check your CG -- that battery pack looks awfully far back.  Control line, for some reason, needs the CG to be much further forward than RC -- for that plane, 15% or 20% of the chord back from the LE is a good starting point.

You may also want to get onto the Hobby King site and get some really cheap motors the same size as yours, and a spare ESC or two (I assume you're using the KR timer, so there's a wide range of ESCs that'll work).  Electric motors are much more prone to bending shafts on impact than slime engines are to break.  Alternately, if you can get a prop saver, use it -- but I've only seen them on motors up to "15" sized (i.e., 300W or so).

Electric control line can be hugely successful.  Electric planes have won in at least two world championships that I am sure of, and I think the total is higher than that.
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 02:52:55 PM »

The CG is rather far forward, the motor must be heavier than I thought which is why battery is so far back.  No doubt a cheaper setup could be found but I went with the entire matched package to start with.
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TimWescott
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 03:06:52 PM »

The CG is rather far forward, the motor must be heavier than I thought which is why battery is so far back.  No doubt a cheaper setup could be found but I went with the entire matched package to start with.

If Eric knew what size plane it was for, then you have a good setup.  And yes, it could have just been wind.

What's the wing area and weight?  If it originally flew on a Fox 35 then with the right power system it may work on 60 foot lines, but with a lighter plane and less power 52 feet should work.  Other than going so fast you end up knee-deep in a post-hole when you're done, there's nothing too wrong about shortening the lines at this point.

(Says the guy who flies on lines that are absurdly long per common wisdom -- before I turned it into a Carrier plane, I flew my Ringmaster on 60' lines with an OS 20FP, and did pretty well the few times that I flew it in AMA pattern competition).
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 03:15:55 PM »

The plans called for .15 to .25 glow engine, I think it is around 30" span.

I remember when I was a kid building a profile P40 with one of those shaking Cox .15 reed valve engines, might have been the Sportsman. First plane with steel lines and they were too long but it is a good thing there was plenty of slack or I would have hit a tree. Shortened the lines to like 40 feet which might have been too much.

At least with this airplane I painted it with fuelproof dope so I could convert it to glow power if I need to.

The power package did seem to pull it pretty well.

 
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TimWescott
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 07:41:25 PM »

I'm guessing 52 foot-ish.  Maybe 48.  Try it when it's calm -- if you have reasonable line tension in the level, then try a smooth climb & dive that just kisses the 45 degree line.  If that works (and you're feeling confident in your piloting) try 60, then 80, then a wingover.  If it'll do all that, then you're probably OK.

If you have a flying buddy, have them look at the wing angle when you're flying level -- the airplane should be an extension of the lines.  If the outboard tip is up, then the thing will come in with the wind, and when you pull positive G's.  You should also carefully inspect for warps -- usually I'd give you a tedious explanation on how to do it at this point, but you fly free-flight.

Folks have learned a lot about leadout location since that plane was designed; the wide spacing and far-back location won't be doing you any favors -- you'll just need to overcome that with faster speed, which will be fine for sport flying and learning (or re-learning) the basics.
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 09:20:32 AM »

Tim, Thank you so much for such extensive recommendations. This is the approach I want to take, move slowly ahead checking it out in a systematic manner.

I want to give glow powered CL a try too.

Bill Kuhl

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TimWescott
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 01:57:31 PM »

Tim, Thank you so much for such extensive recommendations. This is the approach I want to take, move slowly ahead checking it out in a systematic manner.

I want to give glow powered CL a try too.

If you just want to learn, and aren't fixated on reliving your youth or using up kits in the attic or whatnot, then this page is best.  It's focused on competition stunt (because -- what other event matters?), but the skills you learn apply to just about anything.

Just do what he says, except I would recommend adjustable leadouts (but then, I also second Brett's recommendation to put them where they belong and leave them there -- flapless planes are far less sensitive to leadout location than flapped ones).

The Very Best Engine Ever for that airframe is the OS 20FP with ABN.  AFAIK the 20FP with an iron piston will work, there's a lot of good 25LA engines out there, or just about any bushed, Schnuerle-ported "sport" engine (a 20 or 25 ball-bearing engines with more aggressive timing will have too much power, at the wrong engine speeds, and be too heavy).  Nothing's in production except for one or two from Enya, but there's a lot of 20FP and 25LA engines on eBay.  CL venturis are easy to come by, or you can just wire the carb open to the right degree.

I think that airframe would be fine with electric, too, although I've not heard of people flying them that way.
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 02:12:30 PM »

I have a Ringmaster Jr kit that I was going to build but decided I would build that later based on what I learn with the Prop Buster.

I have a couple of Veco .19 RC engines, the newer one has a factory muffler, would they be too heavy?

 
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Konrad
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 02:19:58 PM »

...
Folks have learned a lot about leadout location since that plane was designed; the wide spacing and far-back location won't be doing you any favors -- you'll just need to overcome that with faster speed, which will be fine for sport flying and learning (or re-learning) the basics.
So true. If going down this road "Control Line". look at adding adjustable lead outs.

And if looking to convert the old tried and true ships look here, Brodak has much of the work figured out.
http://brodak.com/electric-accessories-1/conversion-kits.html
http://brodak.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=hubin+timer&x=-484&y=-178
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TimWescott
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 03:38:17 PM »

I have a Ringmaster Jr kit that I was going to build but decided I would build that later based on what I learn with the Prop Buster.

I have a couple of Veco .19 RC engines, the newer one has a factory muffler, would they be too heavy?

At least one Veco 19 is reputed to be almost as good as the 20FP, by the 20FP's main proponent (Brett Buck -- if, in your travels, you hear of the "BBTU" for the 20FP that's the "Brett Buck Tune Up", and it means "leave the damned thing alone and put an APC 9x4 on it").  Otherwise, I'm not such an expert on that one.  I wouldn't hesitate to put one on a Skyray and give it a whirl, though.
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ScienceGuy
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2017, 10:30:18 AM »

I had success flying my electric control line yesterday and I did make up some lines 52 feet long. There was still some wind but the tension remained good. I just flew it level, next flight I will try climbs and dives. Two minutes seems plenty long when you are spinning around.

The plane really was not completely ready to fly and I took the quick and dirty method to get it flying. I do not make a practice of that. Wrote about it in more detail in another blog post.

[url][http://scienceguyorg.blogspot.com/2017/11/successful-control-line-flight.html/url]

Bill Kuhl

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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2017, 11:25:42 AM »

Knowing how to do lazy eights has saved me many times.  If you start to get dizzy just stand in place and do lazy eights for a few times.  The only thing that I have to fly CL wise is combat wings.  The last time I flew one I ended up in the dirt behind me and had no idea how I got there! That was when I realized that I could not fly for several years and get away with it.
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