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Author Topic: Went Flyin' (Please, Everyone Post Your Exploits Here)  (Read 74135 times)
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crashcaley
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« on: August 05, 2009, 09:12:00 PM »

Hi Everyone, I thought I'd started a thread like this, but guess it is another topic like maybe the blasphemous R/C thing.

Anyway, I wished to start a new thread in the Outdoor Free Light (Fright) section that relates our enjoyment of flying. I figure that I might as well start it off, as I did manage to get down to Perris, California, and join up with my club, the Southern California Antique Model Airplane Society (SCAMPS).

I was nearly the first there. Forgot that it is getting light later, so I beat the birds and just about everything and one else out to the flying field. I took along two of my models, my NJAPF P-30 and KK Senator.

I flew my NJAPF four times, and each time the duration was between 60 and 70 seconds on 800 winds. Kind of frustrating to get such low times, when it has done 90 seconds before. I first tried my old Sport rubber, and broke the first one at 775 winds. Very strange, as it was a new motor and well lubed. So I broke out another Sport rubber motor and managed 800. I flew my next two flights on Super Sport at the same winds, but had actually less airtime, though only by a few seconds. My opinion of the new batch os Super Sport rubber, though only with the two flights I did, is that it is no better than the old Sport rubber. Maybe I got another bad batch. Be my luck.

I Flew my Senator at 400, 600, 800, 850 and 900 winds also. The 400 was to ensure that it was still behaving itself since Geneseo, which is was. So I went up in 200 increments and got progressively better results. Though, in all the flights, I was experiencing a gentle power stall. I was advised to add 1/32 down thrust to cure the problem. Hopefully the next time I fly, it will be that way. At 900 turns, it did climb out for about 50 feet at about a 45 degree angle, then went into the power stall climbing mode. My last three flights were probably between 90 and 105 seconds, but didn't time them. I think I can get about 100 winds on my motor, before it starts to worry me about breaking. That extra 100 should give me a bit better climb.

Why not time? I did that with my P-30 and it affected how I launched it, and that might have been one reason for the poorer flight times. I finally quit trying to do flying and timing.

I am seriously thinking of recovering my Senator with Coverite Microlite plastic covering. It is both stonger and more durable than the tissue, which incurred another half dozen holes in it. And on top of that, it weights about the same as doped tissue. Just tired of having to patch my Senator after every outting.

Not to forget the others out at the field, there were probably thirty people out ther flying anything from rubber to power. Mr Bagalini of Starlink was there with a friend. Both were testing new models and getting them trimmed. One was a fairly high tech P-30 with carbon fiber spar and a few other parts, and one was a Coupe called a "Candy". There were the standard Gollywocks, and 4 ounce Wakefields and Old Time Stick models. Sorry, but I don't know the names of them.

But, these Guys really can fly them. Some were up in the stratosphere. I made the comment that if they got any higher, they would be a safety of flight issue with the military transport planes that constantly fly over our flying field.

Really had a great time. I'm sorry, but I got so involved with flying, I forgot to take the camera out and snap some piccies. Hopefully I won't forget next time.

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 10:55:21 PM »

I was advised to add 1/32 down thrust to cure the problem. Hopefully the next time I fly, it will be that way.

As a purely personal opinion ... before going to downthrust I prefer to add right thrust to turn a slight power stall into a climbing circle, a 1/64" at a time; however it's difficult to advise such from afar when unable to watch the model. Try one, if no improvement then revert and try the other!

Tissue patching is just regular maintenance. My model have patches upon patches ..... gives them a patina of age and experience Cheesy
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crashcaley
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 11:08:19 PM »

Jim, Using your method, I would have to take my emery board and take a few sanding swipes at a time on the shimming you did on the nose block that helped cure my tight right hand circling.

Guess I didn't mention my last flight pattern. It went up at about a 45 degree angle for a few seconds, then transitioned to that power stall pattern, but kept climbing. The power stall probably occured at about five second intervals. Then the Senator went into the glide mode to the right, but suddenly changed pattern to the left, and then changed again to the right to finish the flight. I am guessing that I was hitting either rising or descending air, that caused the model to change that glide pattern. But the low power phase and glide pattern were wide 150+ foot circles, just what I like to have.

Oh, the climb out for the first few seconds was straight ahead, until the torque ran out, and it went into the cruising power mode to the right. Don't know if all this tells you anything. Regardless of the power stall, I was absolutely pleased with how the Senator flew. A bit of tweaking, and I will have to hope it doesn't drift out of sight. Of course, my Senator never even got half the height of some of the models, others were flying today. It was amazing to see tiny specks circling about above.

Caley
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gossie
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 11:46:16 PM »

Sounds like the model was in some lift. Hope you are using the DT?
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applehoney
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2009, 01:33:11 AM »

I would have to take my emery board and take a few sanding swipes at a time on the shimming you did on the nose block that helped cure my tight right hand circling.

Yep, I'd forgotten that we have to take out some right thrust. In that case try a 64' of down to start with and see if that does tend to damp out the power stall.

Main thing .. you're pleased with the model which is what matters the most.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2009, 09:29:57 AM »

Jim, I need to transfer those thrust shims from the nose block to the fuse nose, in order to add a shim for down thrust. I'll use ply to substitute for the balsa you used, and then start adding those suggested 1/64th shims.

Gossie, Some said there was lift, but I never saw a thing, other than the occasional model getting bumped, and then resuming its course. What's a D/T? Grin

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 11:56:26 AM »

I'll use ply to substitute for the balsa you used, and then start adding those suggested 1/64th shims.

Did I use balsa Huh I carry a selection of plywood shims in my flight kit, of varying thicknesses, for this purpose. If so, then replacing it is a good thing as balsa compresses under pressure and so one starts to lose the benefit of the thrust adjustment.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2009, 12:22:18 PM »

Jim, my mistake. I remember that you basically carried strips of ply, and that is what you used. I generally apply the shim to the nose of the airplane, and then add some adjoining it and sand to shape to provide a firm place for the nose block to reside. You shimmed the nose block so much, it is nearly out of the nose opening on one side. When I do the transfer of the wood, that adjoining piece just happens to be the top of the nose where I need to add a tad of downthrust.

Caley
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Maxout
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2009, 12:54:28 PM »

Caley, I'm with you on the plastic covering. Have been trying it lately and have found the puncture resistance to be so much better that there's no comparison. I'd recommend you not go with straight plastic on the fuse--tissue over mylar is the better route, but on the flying surfaces it should be fine. The other benefit is that humidity will have zero effects. If you build a model with a warren girder fuselage, you can get away with the plastic covering there. Remember that plastic doesn't have the torsional rigidity of tissue, so you have to take that into account.

And yes, some of those oldtimers really scream up there. I love OT Wakefields for exactly that reason. Seeing something like that go straight up is really incredible.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2009, 01:03:31 PM »

Joshua, You just answered one of my questions about torsional strength of plastic covering. Guess that's out the door, as I just wished to use it only. This Coverite Microlite is only .6 ounce per sq yard. I've no idea what mylar weighs, and how it would be applied.

I apply my tissue with a glue stick, and then dope it. I usually put four coats of dope on something like a Senator fuse, three on the wing and two on the tail feathers.

Guess I will have to stick with tissue and dope. Still cannot believe that tissue is stronger than the Microlite.

Caley
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applehoney
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2009, 01:18:38 PM »

Tissue isn't stronger - it perforates more easily but it has the great advantage that when shrunk and doped it forms a stressed-skin covering which strengthens the structure considerably. Plastic shrinks but fails in the latter respect so structures have to be built to a different level of basic rigidity.

Though I have never used the technique, and may never do, tissue over mylar seems to be the best of two worlds in that the doped tissue provides the rigidity and the plastic the added skin strength - as well as combating the effects of humidity - and the overall weight does not necessarily suffer much as one needs less dope than on tissue alone.
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DaddyO
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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2009, 04:58:02 PM »

Hi Folks
I remember flying a glider with 'Bunge' (John) Carter a few years ago at Church Fenton. A pretty little airfield in the north of England. Weather was glorious and no impediment to the shape of the airfield (which, being a cross shape means that if the wind blows in a direction that doesn't run down one of the runways you are quickly off the airfield)

I was circle towing and the model was spinning like a top above my head (in good air) Grin
Trouble was that I couldn't get it around and down far enough to unlatch the hook into the zoom launch. A short, loud instruction by my timekeeper that it didn't matter two hoots how the model was released in 'that' sort of lift; so I just yanked the towline as hard as I could and watched the model rocket upwards...

Feeling smug I wound the line in and with one eye on the model tried to spot John with the other eye... where on earth was he... Undecided

Seeing my attempted Marty Feldman impersonation he took pity and suggested I look down - he was laying on the runway watching the now rapidly climbing model through his bins Cheesy

Laying down alongside I quickly picked up the model in the binoculars and we had a fun time chatting about everything and nothing as we watched the glider climb higher and higher. As the tail popped for the DT the model started to spin faster and oh so slowly wound its way back earthwards. Eventually, after 6 or 7 minutes I got up and walked about 15 paces to catch the model before it hit the runway Grin Grin

I can't remember how I fared in the contest; John may well have won. That flight, however is etched in my memory and makes me smile thinking about it. My aeroplane. That I built. Riding natures invisible current skywards, then returning back to me sated for the moment awaiting the next flight.
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crashcaley
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2009, 05:03:03 PM »

DaddyO, That's quite a story. A towline that was up there 7 minutes huh? That's something. I can't even fly my R/C models that long. Grin

Caley
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2009, 12:23:52 AM »

Hi Caley,

OK, offer the following:

My SIG yellow Monocoupe was a candidate for the 'Old Mexican Hat Dance'. I could get it to ‘fly’, but that really depended on your definition of ‘fly’.

Decided to pull it apart about a month ago, and reconstruct, recover and give it one last chance before the 'dance'. When disassembled, I discovered/remembered some wedges added under the wings which gave it way too ‘up’ incidence. (Hold the music). Also it gave me a chance to reconstruct the tail assembly: three of the four fuse longerons had been broken in ‘flight’. These were fixed many times, but the fix was suspect. (Hold the hats).

Removed the wedges, fixed the fuse at the tail, recovered and reassembled. Also moved the rear peg up a couple of bays.
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2009, 12:32:25 AM »

Also changed the nose block from a square tube held by a thin member (3/16" thick) in the cowl (sorry no pic) to Duco Guru's 'cork in a bottle' nose block. I noticed that the square tube would rotate up during the motor run, eliminating the down thrust I had initially set in the nose. (Note that the square tube was a good fit in the nose block, but still tended to rotate up).
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Don McLellan
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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2009, 12:40:30 AM »

A 15 second 'training flight' on about 400 winds. Still need a little more down thrust or nose weight.

Note that the wing is thin (something like 8% or 9% - OK very thin for me but as per the SIG plan). Also, don't really want to use more than 400 winds or so because my wife isn't so good at climbing trees any more.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Don49Mc#play/all/uploads-all/0/CEatxFz0eEE
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crashcaley
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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2009, 01:07:55 AM »

Don, You had me rollin' in the aisles with that comment about wife not so good at climbing trees anymore. Grin I don't know a whole lot about flight trimming, but was it power stalling a tad? Other than that, nice pattern and nice flight. I'd be tickled to get that long a flight on a scale jobbie. And, I must say, that is a nice lookin' model.

Caley
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crashcaley
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2009, 01:25:05 AM »

I Googled for mylar/tissue covering and came up with this link: http://www.gryffinaero.com/models/ffpages/tips/mylartissue.html#weight

Sounds pretty simple, and I may try it. Just have to figure out where to purchase the correct mylar used in covering models, and will have to purchase some adhesive also.

Caley
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DaddyO
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2009, 04:12:00 AM »

Hi Caley

Gald you enjoyed the tale - plenty more available (aren't there always) Cheesy

If you decide to try tissue/mylar I'll scan the articles from Aeromuddler that set me off...

Briefly- I get my Mylar from FF Supplies, use lightweight Jap on most FF stuff and use thinned contact adhesive to stick the mylar to the airframe. (Thinned with cellulose). This has always worked for me and I have models covered in this way now 10 years old. You'll still get the odd puncture, but usually the covering just dents and a little heat will sort it out good as new Wink
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crashcaley
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2009, 09:14:56 AM »

DaddyO, Thanks so much for you kind offer. I Googled last night and found this www.gryffinaero.com/models/ffpages/tips/mylartissue.html that talks about mylar/tissue covering. I'm looking into the proper weight that would be best for my Senator and of course, in the future, a Gollywock and other more powerful, larger models.

Caley

Aren't I just a glutton for punishment Grin
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hermit
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 09:23:01 AM »

You're getting close Don! I suspect a bit more down thrust as well. How does it glide without power? Still wish mine looked that good.

Doug
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DaddyO
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 09:49:58 AM »

That's ideal Caley Smiley

I use 5 micron thick mylar under lt. weight jap for everything up to and including my Challenger (3ozs rubber 54" span) and vintage wakes

The only occasions I have used the thicker mylar is for tails and fins that have no tissue on them (eg F1A's)

I'll occassionally use heavyweight jap/modelspan type tissue on inner panels of gliders (new and old) to stiffen the structure and help prevent wing flutter on launch.
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 10:04:07 AM »

This is the first time I've read this post and Daddyo's story about his glider reminded me about the longest flight I've every had and still was able to retreive the plane. It was at the 2009 U.S. Nat's a week ago. Some of you may have read my other posts about my electric duration planes. Will this is about the B Electric Maverick version that I flew in F1Q competition. The flight times where set at a 10 second motor run and a 2:30 minute max. flight time. It was reduced from 3:00 minutes due to the wind and size of field. On the first couple of rounds I had some issues with a battery and a short fuse and didn't max but I finally got my act together and maxed the rest of the rounds to win the competition. The memorable flight came in the 6th round! I launched into a boomer, in the 10 second motor run the plane was already almost out of site!!!! The plane never looked down from there, I hurredly jumped on my chase bike and took off on the chase. At 3 minutes the DT went off and all I could see was a dark red speck. The plane continued to fly like nothing had happened! Shocked Finally ever so slowly I could tell that it was slowly loosing altitude and 4:30 minutes after it DT'd I was in a 7 foot high corn field retreiving it!!@#$%& I estimated that it was approx 1 1/2 miles away when it hit the ground. This was the highest flight I've ever flown and still retreived the Plane!! A pic. of the plane is attached.

Scott
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applehoney
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 12:09:45 PM »

the longest flight I've every had and still was able to retrieve the plane

Hmm.. I had an A/1 glider go OOS upwards on a calm hot day in England in the 60's .. later, others drew my attention to it descending back onto the field .. must have been well over over a half hour. Also a 30+ minute P30 flight at Borden in the 80's which didn't go very high but just stayed there.

Luckiest - my 'Walkin Shoes 2' on first flights at Geneseo some years ago .. hot, slight breeze. Timer quit, model left field crossing the road and out over the woods into far distance, was almost OOS when the breeze reversed and brught it back over the field once again ... where the timer finally resumed operation and dropped the model close to the car. Time .. some 21 minutes. Timer .. changed. Following year replacement timer failed, model heard in air on tracker for well over 90 minutes, recovered several days later from a tree miles from G-town. Sure hoping things go better next weekend and/or at GGG
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crashcaley
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 01:50:19 PM »

You Guys definitely have has some long frights. I dread the day my airplane decides to become a speck, as I don't have the greatest eyesight, and will more than likely lose it. It's nice to hear yours either landed back on the flying field, or were found eventually.

Jim, Do hope the weather cooperates for you, and that you train your airplanes to launch from one spot, and land on the same one. I like the way you got my Senator trimmed into big circles on both the power portion and glide portion, and the fact that you must have talked to it, as it has behaved and landed only a hundred feet or so from launch point. Well, it did misbehave once, ending up in a thorny bush. That's where most of my holes came from. But I flew it with the holes anyway, and it did just fine.

Keep the stories coming, as I am enjoying them completely. Sure others are also.

Caley
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