Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
July 17, 2018, 07:14:00 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Sikorsky S-16 on skis  (Read 1462 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« on: April 08, 2018, 07:05:14 PM »

I'm considering this as my next open scale build, for indoor rubber. Probably go for one on skis to keep weight low (and to avoid having to make 4 spoked wheels!)
I rather like the floatplane version too, but despite the attached three-view I've found precisely zero photos of it with floats. Various pics with wheels and skis though, and there are a few nice drawings and a couple of flying model plans about as well. For online photos/drawings this is about the best of the webpages I've found so far...
http://xn--80aafy5bs.xn--p1ai/aviamuseum/aviatsiya/russkij-imperatorskij-voenno-vozdushnyj-flot/istrebiteli/istrebitel-s-16/

I've also ordered a used copy of the Flying Machine Press book on the aircraft by Vadim Mikheyev.

I'm thinking big, not very detailed, and lightly constructed so that I can maybe join the large, slow and floaty club!
All thoughts welcome!
(I won't be starting for a while as I still plan to do a nice relaxing Dumas Eindecker kit build first.)
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Logged
g_kandylakis
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 31
Offline Offline

Greece Greece

Posts: 403




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 12:38:09 AM »

Hi Pete,

Do not know if you are aware, Radek Gregovsky has made  plan of it, long time ago. The land version, which can be useful as a basis For anymodification.

George
Logged

scale free flight & micro RC
Graham Banham
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 18
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 567




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 02:44:56 AM »


Pete,

Ask and ye shall receive.......scans, copies?

 Grin

Graham
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 03:32:14 AM »

Thank you both, very much! Don't scan or copy me anything yet, but I didn't know about the Radek Gregovsky plan and Small Flying Aeroplanes booklet. I should soon have the other book in Graham's first pic though.
I think this aircraft is undermodelled given its simple but appealing lines and quite generous dihedral. Maybe the wheels put people off.
Logged
Graham Banham
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 18
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 567




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 12:09:01 PM »

Pete,

I may be stating the obvious, but you do know the Small Flying Aeroplanes pack IS the Radek Gregovsky plan?
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 12:11:50 PM »

Yes, I gathered that it was probably one and the same, but thanks for confirming it. I may have to buy it. I've already got the SFA Tabloid booklet and it's a lovely thing.
Logged
Graham Banham
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 18
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 567




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 12:13:44 PM »

Thought so!  Smiley
Logged
g_kandylakis
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 31
Offline Offline

Greece Greece

Posts: 403




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 01:27:49 PM »

I may have to buy it

Buy it... I first saw a model built after this plan in Interscale 1999 in Prostejov. If memory serves me correctly, it was CO2 powered and flew beautifully. And Radek makes great plans and models anyway, so that should give you a very good starting point.

I do have a photograph somewhere back home and the results, I do not remember the builder's name.

A quick internet search did bring up this video by Ivan Hornicek (S4žb in HPA) but no footage of the Sikorsky. Plenty of other interesting models and modellers too, from some 20 years back, many familiar english faces too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmaZ6sUOi-E

Something to relax you before the Nats  Grin

George
Logged

scale free flight & micro RC
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 09:09:10 AM »

Buy it... I first saw a model built after this plan in Interscale 1999 in Prostejov. If memory serves me correctly, it was CO2 powered and flew beautifully. And Radek makes great plans and models anyway, so that should give you a very good starting point.

Thanks George. I very much would like to buy it, rather than just rely on Graham's kind offer of scans, but the question is where and how? If anyone has got a copy of the Gregovsky SFA Sikorsky S-16 pack that they'd like to sell, please do PM me!

(And thanks for that vintage Interscale video link! Some very youthful and nimble movers in the air race at the end there. Rather like yesterday in fact.)
Logged
Graham Banham
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 18
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 567




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 09:23:42 AM »

Pete,

I’ve got two copies but check your email: Radek is selling them.

Graham
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 09:42:37 AM »

Perfect! Thanks Graham!
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2018, 09:29:35 AM »

Spent a bit of time gathering stuff for this. Many thanks, Graham, for what you sent and all your help. My Vadim Mikheyhev book is now here, and I've hopefully ordered the beautiful 1/20 scale plan from Radek Gregovsy. I intend to blow it up to 1/12 scale which will give me a model of  27.5 inches (or 700mm) span.

The Radek Gregovsky model plan, and the excellent drawings and colour scheme, all show an S-16 with top wing ailerons only and lower wings of constant chord. Technically it's an S-16ser according to my new book. This is the one I want to do, preferably on skis. So far so good.

HOWEVER... a lot of the available photos show the S-16 variant with coupled ailerons and a correspondingly different bottom wing. I don't really want to do this one as it's more complicated and doesn't correspond to the Gregovsky plan or the lovely drawings.
The difficulty is that apart from some close-ups, these are the only photographs I've found of the S-16ser (ie without bottom wing ailerons). Only one of these 4 pics shows the aircraft on skis and I hesitate to use that as my subject example because a wing tip is cut off in the shot, which is a no-no for the scale documentation of your chosen example, so I believe. The one standing on its nose is a possibility; no skis, but with covered wheels might still be tempting except that I won't be able to show any wing markings for that one (although at least it might work as a half decent side view). The second  side view photo has the rudder cropped from shot and would need me to make 4 spoked wheels. It's not so much that I really mind making them, but skis would be fun, and lighter. And finally there's the rather dark front view shot, which again is useful as an evidence photo but not too brilliant as my subject example.
So, have I got enough? And if not, where to go from here? I've just about exhausted the Google images options I think.

(As usual, there are plenty of plastic kit versions, computer sim versions and fine colour profiles of the plane as I want to build it. Very nice to see, but a bit chocolate-teapottish for my immediate purposes.)

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:39:56 AM by Pete Fardell » Logged
Mefot
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 226




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 10:36:28 AM »

I would be tempted to fire off a few e-mails to Russian aviation museums. I'm sure they must have something in their archives....
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 10:47:30 AM »

Thanks Mefot- that's a good idea. I have got that pic you attach; it shows the underside roundels well but unfortunately it's another variant again, as evidenced by the built up turtle deck. I have got one more genuine S-16ser on skis photo  though, which is from my new Mikheyhev book. A useful shot this one, but still too cropped to satisfy the static judges' initial requirements.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Logged
LASTWOODSMAN
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 19
Offline Offline

Canada Canada

Posts: 439


REAL PLANES HAD ROUND ENGINES AND TWO WINGS



Ignore
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2018, 11:42:21 AM »

Hi Pete.  I am really following your Sikorsky S-16 on skis build.  Thanks for all those great pictures and history you guys!   Shocked  They really put one into the mood of the build !!   Cool

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard
Logged

OH, I HAVE SLIPPED THE SURLY BONDS OF EARTH ... UP, UP THE LONG DELIRIOUS BURNING BLUE ... SUNWARD I'VE CLIMBED AND JOINED THE TUMBLING MIRTH OF SUN-SPLIT CLOUDS ...
Graham Banham
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 18
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 567




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2018, 12:34:29 PM »

Pete,

This is the problem we discussed via email. There are very few shots of the complete aircraft, and it appears none are consistent. In reality, the photos don’t show spectacular detail, and whilst the rules state three photos of the complete aircraft type as a minimum, only one has to be of the actual subject aircraft modelled.

You may have to bite the bullet and select an aircraft at a period in its existence where it doesn’t have all the features that appeal to you most, but you can tie photo to three view to colour refs. The latter will probably best be where a photo shows the russian pennant/ triangular fuselage markings, as these are the most distinctive:  there are other partial shots of aircraft showing the more generic markings such as wing roundels.

Bill: you’re an expert in aircraft of this period: how do you go about resolving problems like this? (Build something else may not be the best response).
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2018, 01:53:56 PM »

Thanks, Graham. Yes, you were right about the shortage of non-cropped, consistent photos. Even the ones on Radek's booklet don't appear to match his plan. "Build something else" would be a  perfectly valid response from Bill, but unless it's a completely hopeless case, I'm more interested in just minimising the static mark hit. Ideally I want to end up with something which flies beautifully and scores over a thousand on static. That will probably be good enough to be occasionally competitive (e.g. when the big guns are absent!) and, more importantly, consistently fun to fly in comps.

One thing I'm looking forward to is building a simple fuselage shape again. The nose is not as short as many rotary scouts so I reckon it could all be kept light. Or light by my own standards anyway!
Logged
SP250
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 4
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 318



Ignore
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2018, 05:34:05 PM »

Pete

Sunday's Nats had a number of the regulars & "big guns" absent and as has already been observed - a nicely built kit scale model with corrected outlines and a little extra detail & with a consistant flight pattern would have been on the podium in either of the open classes.
Get a good flight in and you have beaten 50% of the open entries - never mind if your model is a few marks down on static.

John M
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 05:02:08 PM »

I would be tempted to fire off a few e-mails to Russian aviation museums. I'm sure they must have something in their archives....

This was a good idea, except that I can't actually find any Russian aviation museums that are running and  easily contactable. Anyone?

Also there is, or was, a Sikorsky museum in Connecticut US, but I can't really work out how to contact them either.
Logged
Mefot
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 2
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 226




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2018, 05:08:18 PM »

http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/Contact_Us.phpSmiley
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2018, 06:22:50 PM »

Thank you. Not sure why I failed to find that page!
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 05:10:13 AM »

Leading on from discussions elsewhere, I'm still considering whether this is at all viable as an Open Rubber subject within BMFA rules.  The problem is the limited photo evidence. If I use the Radek Gregovsky plan (which is for a Sikorsky S-16ser) here is what I have unless something better turns up.
Pics 1,2 and 3 are what I'd have to submit with the three view drawing. Pic 1 would be my subject example, so I'm forgoing the skis. Pic 3 is the best I have in terms of a top view. As you can see, it's not really a top view at all and one wingtip is cropped out of shot.
Pics 4, 5 and 6 are, I think,  the only others I have of the right version of the aircraft. (Photo 6 shows the whole aircraft, but unfortunately there is a little bit of damage if you look closely.)

So, would this photo evidence be so poor as to be laughed off the judging table, meaning that I could not get an even half decent static mark? It's the missing wingtip in pic 3 which is worrying me most as that might give me an instant penalty before they even start finding all my mistakes.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Logged
THB
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 14
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 537


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 06:44:48 AM »

Reminds me a bit of Farman David...
http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft31628.htm
Logged

Tim
Graham Banham
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 18
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 567




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2018, 03:06:24 PM »

Pete,

Identify pic 1 to the judges as your subject aircraft, lose pic 6 of the wrecked one, add in the whole shots of the complete aircraft type on pages 1 and 2 of the book, throw the lot and three view at the judges, and see you with Sikorsky at Nijmegen. Ok?!  Grin

Remember its a minimum of three photos of the aircraft type, with one of the actual aircraft modelled. Agreed there are differences in the versions, but these aren’t to the extent of the two being in effect completely different aircraft with the same name, as in for example a Mk1 and Mk24 Spitfire.
Logged
Pete Fardell
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 81
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 4,207


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2018, 04:33:33 PM »

Thanks, Graham. I'm hoping to fly the Callair at Nijmegen, but a Sikorsky for Walsall 2019... maybe!
...add in the whole shots of the complete aircraft type on pages 1 and 2 of the book...
Remember its a minimum of three photos of the aircraft type, with one of the actual aircraft modelled. Agreed there are differences in the versions...
It's the bottom wing ailerons on those photos which bother me, and the fact that my version is described as an S-16ser, rather than just an S-16.
Word for word, the relevant rule says that I must provide, "at least three different photographs or printed reproductions of a full size aircraft which must be the same type and mark number as the actual subject aircraft being modelled." (my italics) Hmmmm...
Incidentally, I found the attached pic today just when I thought I'd exhausted the Google possibilities. It's a worse picture than the similar one I showed in my last post, and is still losing the wingtip, but obviously taken at the same time. Maybe there are others somewhere!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Sikorsky S-16 on skis
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!