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Author Topic: My first F1D  (Read 4384 times)
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mkirda
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2018, 10:45:43 AM »


I calculated the width required using the old Pi d formula, not forgetting to add my wood thickness to the d. I used what looks to be pretty standard sizes for the wood. The stick used 35 thou C grain and the boom 25 thou C grain. Both bits of wood were low 4lb density.


What units are you using? I can't make these sizes work in either mm or inches.

F1D should be roughly 0.013" for fuse and 0.009" for tailboom.
0.035" is what I use for rolled P-30 fuselages. Smiley

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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Rossclements
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F1D is pretty neat



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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2018, 05:47:22 PM »

.35 mm works out to something like 0.039" and .25mm works out to .0095 or so.
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Skymon
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2018, 03:28:21 AM »

My bad, mixing up units...
I struggle with thou's and bits of inches Smiley

"35 thou" was a complete mess up!  should be 0.35mm or 0.014 of an inch
Same with "25 thou". Should be 0.25mm or 0.010 of an inch.
As Mike says, these are pretty standard sizes for F1D.
I'm certainly not re-inventing the wheel here, if there's a commonality across plans, then that's 'my' choice too.

Motor stick is now completely glued and I am working on the boom.

I had major issues with adding all the parts to the motor stick for my F1R. I got everything on the eventually, but nothing aligns as well as I'd like.
That will be my first area of improvement from my normal process of 'get sucked in to just whacking parts together'.
I am constructing some sort of jig to mark and hold all the sticking out bits to the MS.
Hopefully this will give me better results than last time.

S

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Maxout
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2018, 10:23:15 AM »

F1D should be roughly 0.013" for fuse and 0.009" for tailboom.
0.035" is what I use for rolled P-30 fuselages. Smiley

I moved up to .016" on motorsticks several years ago. This eliminates the need for boron on motorsticks and it eliminates motorstick failures. You can shorten the motorstick up so that spacers are not needed (about 6.75" long) and then use .010" for the stub boom.
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Skymon
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2018, 10:52:28 AM »

Hey, give me chance Smiley

I'm going to go with what's seen as the standard way for my first attempt. Grin
If I don't build to an established baseline I'll never know if I can build ok.

I'm itching to change everything, but I need to know if I can do what I'm told first.

Thanks for the info though, I'm logging it all.

Si
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mkirda
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2018, 12:28:39 PM »

And mine are typically 0.014", roughly 4.2#, wrapped around a 0.266" mandrel.
The mandrel is a commonly available drill rod in the US.

This seems a good compromise to weight and strength, without the crazy amounts of twist I saw earlier that made my models unflyable above 0.35 in-oz of torque.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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Skymon
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2018, 05:21:02 PM »

in-oz... that hurts!
I like my SI units..

Si
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Skymon
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2018, 03:30:24 AM »

The basic sticka dn boom are now complete.
What do I do next?

Add boron, the wingposts, the hook or the bearing?

I am making up another pair of boom and stick now the formers are free.

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: My first F1D
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Skymon
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2018, 03:37:25 AM »

F1D should be roughly 0.013" for fuse and 0.009" for tailboom.
0.035" is what I use for rolled P-30 fuselages. Smiley

I moved up to .016" on motorsticks several years ago. This eliminates the need for boron on motorsticks and it eliminates motorstick failures. You can shorten the motorstick up so that spacers are not needed (about 6.75" long) and then use .010" for the stub boom.

Josh
I had a look at your plans and the prospect of using less boron on a plane is very interesting to me..
On all the plans of yours I have, I can see use of a 9" (230mm) motor stick hook length, have you changed to shorter lengths since then?
Have you got a plan you can share of that design?
I noticed you used a boron outline on your fin too, what's the thinking there?

Best regards
Si

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Skymon
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2018, 06:48:44 AM »

Mr Hebb has reminded me that the boron application needs the mandrel up the middle...
That makes boron application task number 1...

I'm nervous Wink


Si
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Rossclements
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F1D is pretty neat



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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2018, 09:40:38 AM »

Boron is actually very easy to work with. Just use it with a light colored background so you can see it. I'm a big fan of  tensioning the boron when I put it on the motor stick,  seems to keep the boron straighter and makes it less prone to popping up.
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mkirda
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2018, 09:47:10 AM »

I'm nervous Wink


Si

Don't be nervous. Just be careful.

I work with fiberglass all the time. I am far more afraid of hurting myself with it than with boron.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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Skymon
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2018, 03:45:23 PM »

First bit is on!
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Skymon
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2018, 06:54:54 AM »

A busy night last night entering the realm of boron re-enforcement.
A new process and material for me.

I chose a nice piece of wood to use as a base for my work.
The first thing I learnt was not to use tape to hold the rolled stick/mandrel down.
Tape sticks too much to everything and the resultant force was a point load on just one part of the circumference, possibly leaving a flat spot.
I guess I might need to invest in some low tack tape…

I use a bit of Blu Tack instead of tape and it worked for me.
Just resting the stick on a small valley in the blu tack held it firm enough to work on.

I made up a piece of thread with a nut on the end as a tensioning mass.

I then cleaned the boron with a tissue and acetone.

First task is to anchor one end of the boron. I pre-glued the motorstick with a blob of 50/50 cement. Then held the boron in place while I added another blob on top.
When dry I cut the boron to length. It’s a straight forward snap with some wide bladed tweezers.
Next up time to attach the tensioning mass… I found this really tricky to start with.
I ended up by dipping 10mm of the thread in 50/50 cement and letting it dry. This gives a nice rigid bit of thread to align with the boron end. I hung the boron off the edge of the wood, aligned my thread and then applied an acetone soaked brush. The brush stuck to the thread, capillary action sucked it on. When I tried to withdraw it, it pulled the thread with it. I eventually solved it by coming in from the boron side and gently sliding up the boron.

The mass is attached. Line up the boron along the length of the stick and then hang the mass on the thread over the edge of the table. This holds it all in place while you glue it all down.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
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Skymon
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2018, 07:24:11 AM »

As I glued the boron to the wood I pressed down on the metal to embed it in the motorstick wood, as advised in some build methods. I was a little heavy handed here and I shattered one end of the boron in to small pieces. These were all contained within the adhesive and it was only apparent when viewed under high magnification that there were breaks. I pulled all of the pieces out of the adhesive with acetone on a brush, they all ended up in my solvent pot. I was using a drill blank to press the boron down, I changed to a wooden dowel after and reduced my pressure… Lesson learnt.

I removed the whole piece of boron as it was now 15mm too short. Taking it off without shattering it in to many pieces was tricky but I managed it.

When the whole piece of boron is stuck from end to end I melted the thread off with some acetone. I then went back and glued the ends again just to make sure they don’t ever poke out.

Then it was on to the boom. Same process here but the boron goes on at 12, 4 and 8 o’clock. I marked the ends and set about sticking it down. I got all three parts done reasonably quickly as I am now an ‘expert’ and already had two pieces completed successfully. Here was another error…

My boom became stuck to the mandrel in a couple of areas. I managed to work it free by gently massaging it and twisting the mandrel slightly but it did open my seam in a couple of small places.
 I now need to go back to the boom and repair, possibly refit the boron again after. Be very careful with wood sticking to the mandrels. It’s happened to me a number of times. If you can work out exactly where the area is you can soak it off, but sometimes it’s just wedged. Keep the mandrel really clean. I have sprayed mine now with mould release just to be sure it doesn’t get stuck again. Keep the mandrel free by moving it a little and often.

Both parts are now finished and curing off. I will build another set up now for spares, hopefully incorporating all the things I learnt above.

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
Re: My first F1D
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mkirda
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« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2018, 11:16:30 AM »

Somewhat convoluted way of doing this.
Guess I need to cover this as part of the F1D vLog...

Mike
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Skymon
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« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2018, 11:27:38 AM »

My posts are convoluted and verbose, I'm not trying to put together an instruction manual.
There are some great ones on the web already. That's where I'm getting my info.
It's more of a conversational journey.
I'll be concentrating on the things I did wrong more than the things that just go to plan.

Hopefully detailing my mistakes will prevent a few others making the same ones.


Si
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mkirda
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« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2018, 11:30:09 AM »

My posts are convoluted and verbose, I'm not trying to put together an instruction manual.
There are some great ones on the web already. That's where I'm getting my info.
It's more of a conversational journey.
I'll be concentrating on the things I did wrong more than the things that just go to plan.

Hopefully detailing my mistakes will prevent a few others making the same ones.


Si

Not intended as a criticism, more a note that there are easier ways to do this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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Skymon
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« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 03:09:21 PM »

It wasn't taken as a criticism.
If you have an easier way then please share ☺
I've got more to do....
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piecost
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« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 03:50:15 PM »

Keep posting gentlemen
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Maxout
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« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 03:55:40 PM »

Josh
I had a look at your plans and the prospect of using less boron on a plane is very interesting to me..
On all the plans of yours I have, I can see use of a 9" (230mm) motor stick hook length, have you changed to shorter lengths since then?
Have you got a plan you can share of that design?
I noticed you used a boron outline on your fin too, what's the thinking there?

I haven't drawn up an F1D since 2015. Have been through three design iterations since then, but none have been good enough, mainly because they're made from recycled parts and my attention has been diverted somewhat. I shortened the motorsticks to get rid of the spacers. I hate spacers.

Boron fins are just a think I like. I don't seem to break them as often. I'm getting away from fins entirely though.
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Skymon
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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2018, 05:35:43 AM »

Fins seem to persist in F1D and F1L where as F1R and F1M they are a rarity.
Interesting how trends develop.

A fin adds weight in order to provide directional stability.
Tip plates do the same and also add weight but they can improve the efficiency of the tips.
Raised stab tips add a little weight but also increase wing area, if not 'projected' area...

Is it worth a thread on those variants generally?
I'd like to hear the thoughts of the proponents of each...

BR
Si
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Skymon
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« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2018, 03:13:45 AM »

Some progress has been made. Motor stick has the metal work attached now.
Only one issue - I attached the rear hook at the end of the stick, not where it should be.
I had to soak it off and refit in the correct place.

I have pontificated about wingposts for a week or two now.
Square, round, rectangular balsa with boron or carbon sanded, or carbon wrapped...
The choice is mind boggling.

The plan I have has 1mm carbon tubes on it.

I'm still pondering.

The suns out and I've a busy weekend ahead so there may not be that much progress.
I will post up pictures of where I am a little later.
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ykleetx
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« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2018, 10:56:36 AM »

Go with a fin. It's much easier to build a good fin and flat stab than a stab with tip plates. Most importantly, you can easily change the fin angle if needed. I use 1-2 degrees.

For wing posts, I suggest wood and boron. square cross section. wing end rounded for the wing tubes. stick end rounded for easier construction.

1mm carbon is not stiff enough if the post is longer than 2".
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jakepF1D
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« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2018, 06:51:44 PM »

I will second what Kang said.  Start with balsa and boron wing posts.  I personally hate them, but they're the best place to start.

Also, don't sweat the small stuff on your first F1D.  The best way to learn how to build an F1D is to fly an F1D you've already built.  You'll learn more about your model in 1 day of flying than you will in 3 months of building.
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