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Author Topic: National Tournament  (Read 1432 times)
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Olbill
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« on: May 01, 2018, 08:25:15 PM »

Can anyone verify the description of the flying site for Wright Stuff at the national tournament? (ceiling height, ceiling composition)
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ceandra
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2018, 12:29:34 PM »

Bill:

Frustratingly, they have not announced it. It does appear form floor plans that it might be on teh order of 120' x 200', assuming they do not lower any dividers. However, they have not announced or indicated height. There are precious few photos of the actual venue. One person estimated 20-25'.

Chuck
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flydean1
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2018, 02:12:01 PM »

Where is it located?  Public records may be available.
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ceandra
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2018, 03:01:01 PM »

Moby Aux Gym, Colorado State University, Ft. Collins CO
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Olbill
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2018, 03:32:49 PM »

Bill:

Frustratingly, they have not announced it. It does appear form floor plans that it might be on teh order of 120' x 200', assuming they do not lower any dividers. However, they have not announced or indicated height. There are precious few photos of the actual venue. One person estimated 20-25'.

Chuck

It seems so simple to do the right thing. It might take someone 10 minutes to measure and post all the relevant dimensions.
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ceandra
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2018, 04:18:35 PM »

I thought maybe they did not want to announce until all teams were selected, but that barrier is passed. We have known we are going since February! The rules indicate they must announce the room size before the event, but it does not tell how far before.

They also, as of the weekend, cancelled the Friday test session, because some teams may still be traveling and it would not be fair for some teams to get a practice session and others not. At this point they are not showing any testing in the gym, though there was some discussion it may be open for 1 hour of testing in the morning of the event. That is what they did last year, and with 60 teams in a very small gym, that was a zoo. We opted not.

Two years ago they allowed testing on Friday for half a day. While busy, it sure beat one hour!

Chuck
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ceandra
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 03:57:13 PM »

They have finally released the gym dimensions and a photo at https://coloradoscienceolympiad.org/nationals2018/buildingdimensions.html

The ceiling has nets hanging down that will not be removed, so I think "no touch" will be a must.

They are reporting 28' ceiling, but not clear if this is to nets, girders, lights, or sheet metal.

But, there it is.

Chuck
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calgoddard
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 05:03:45 PM »

Ceandra -

Kudos to you for providing information about the 2018 Nationals flying site for WS.

This gym looks very similar in construction and height to the high school gym where I coached WS for many years.  They both have similar prefabricated steel beams although the Nationals gym is longer and wider.

I am attaching a picture of the gym where I coached WS for many years (both Division B and Division C).

It also had roll-down nets.  We actually found them to be very forgiving.  In the hundreds of flights we conducted if they hit the unfurled part of the nets, the planes would always bounce off and not get stuck.

The height to the bottom of the partially unfurled nets in our gym is approximately 22 feet.   I suspect that you have a similar unobstructed flying height in the 2018 nationals gym.  My guess is that the published 28 foot dimension is the max height to the peak of the roof.

There are two strategies for flying in a venue with the published dimensions of the 2018 Nationals WS venue.  

If you plan to fly no-touch then a relatively far back CG allows a very low decalage to be used that minimizes drag.  However the static margin of this configuration is challenging.  If the model hits the net, it may not recover. If it does, it may lose half or more of its altitude and not climb back up more than a few feet, so the model will land after a short flight with lots of unused turns. If you go with the low decalage strategy a larger turning circle would be safe and would produce a longer flight than a tight turning circle.

Or, your model can have relatively forward CG that requires a higher decalage, that permits the model airplane to recover quickly. This way it can hit the net, climb back up, hit the net again, etc.  The high decalage leads to higher drag, but if you are lucky, the model can fly high and use almost the full height of the gym.  If you go with the high decalage strategy, I would use a tighter turning circle so that you can fly higher between the nets.  This is a risky strategy as there are flouresent light fixtures between the nets just waiting to gobble up an airplane.

Personally, I prefer the low decalage strategy in a gym like the Nationals gym.  I coached my WS teams to use their first official flight as a gauge.  Their models were very long (sometimes as long as 33 - 34 inches, had a relatively far aft CG, and would use the stab for lift, lugging around slightly nose up.  I learned this strategy from the late Cezar Banks, who finished 2nd in the world F1D championships about a half dozen times. He used to design WS kits for A-Z (no longer in business).  

In previous years there was no limit on the length of a WS model and it was easy to build near the generous minimum weight, even with a very long tail boom.  I coached my WS teams to make a first official flight that was a conservative one. This flight might peak 3 - 4 feet or more below the max height, but the model had such low decalage that the flight time was usually very good, often good enough for a medal (top three).  My WS teams would then slightly increase the launch torque on the second official flight to get a few feet higher, and hopefully pull off a longer no touch flight.

If you plan to go with the no-touch strategy, go early to the gym early on the day of the competition and measure the height from the floor to the bottom of the partially unfurled net in the middle of the gym.  Do this with a helium balloon and some mono filament fishing line.  Don't use a laser distance measuring device. There can be too many technical problems accurately measuring the height to the bottom of the "curtain wall" with such a device.

Do NOT practice in the chaos before the official flights begin on the morning of the competition.  There is too much chance of breaking your airplanes or getting them stuck so that they cannot be retrieved.

Flying at 6:00 a.m. at 62 degrees F.  will not tell you how high your model will climb, for example, when launched at 0.4 inch-ounces of torque later in the day when there are a hundred people in the gym and it is 76 degrees F. - trust me on this point.  Besides variations in air temperature, variations in humidity and barometric pressure also affect the flight time of an indoor duration stick model like a WS airplane.  In addition, the ability of the rubber motor to store and yield energy depends on the ambient temperature at which it is wound and unwound.

I recommend using a flaring prop in such a low ceiling height like the WS flying site for the 2018 Nationals. As Olbill has explained, it is much easier to use a flexible prop spar than to sand the blades of an Ikara prop to the thickness required to flare sufficiently.

Good luck to your WS team at Nationals.  And thanks for giving so much of your time to our youth.
 
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Re: National Tournament
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ceandra
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2018, 09:30:26 PM »

Cal:

Thanks for your input.

I think it appears to be 28' to the lights. If that is the case, its worth flying within one basketball court to get the full height.

We made 5 new flaring props today, using various containers (bucket props), and a few non-thin containers were used to form balsa bucket props. 3 hour test session tomorrow, we'll see how they work! Have had continuous progress, and last week's prop was really good, so built upon that direction today. Getting good control of first lap, rise about 2-3 feet every lap including first at torque to 0.4. Sunday is last build session for Heli, more rotors and a modified fuselage. I'm exhausted, and wife is tired of balsa in the kitchen!

Tall flying space slightly better than Wisconsin, which had the baskets tilted inward and up.

Chuck
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Olbill
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2018, 11:02:51 AM »

Elevation at CSU is about 5000'. Be prepared for higher RPMs and probably more launch torque.
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bjt4888
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2018, 11:27:16 AM »

Chuck,

Amazing amount of testing accomplished by you and your team this year. Here’s hoping for a great result at Nationals.

I know the feeling about the challenges of the season. Chinook Helis are quite a bit More work than coax. I’m sitting here rying to get up the energy to tie a few motors to attend the Pontiac Michigan “Spring Fling”indoor contest tomorrow, but I can barely drag myself down to the workshop. Long season and very rewarding working with the students.

Hope your last test test and build sessios go great this weekend.

Brian T
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jdpsloflyer
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 10:50:33 AM »

They have finally released the gym dimensions and a photo at https://coloradoscienceolympiad.org/nationals2018/buildingdimensions.html

The ceiling has nets hanging down that will not be removed, so I think "no touch" will be a must.

They are reporting 28' ceiling, but not clear if this is to nets, girders, lights, or sheet metal.

But, there it is.

Chuck

I went over to the Aux Gym at CSU last week to measure heights and widths with my laser tool.  These distances are what I considered safe dimensions with no touch flights.  The gym is 142 ft long and 69 ft wide consisting of 3 basketball courts side by side.  The gym can be divided into three courts using partitions.

One court has a hanging net above it, the others have lights, beams and AC.

Measurements for heights:

dividers (retracted), 21 ft.
Lights,  25 ft
AC 27.3 ft.

I did not measure beam or ceiling heights since obstacles would hinder flights higher than the lights.  If a flight were lucky, it could avoid the lights and get a 27 ft no hit in.

I am going to coach my team for 25 ft to be on the safe side.

The picture of the gym provided shows the three courts with dividers retracted.  Our SO coordinator said they were going to try getting 10 teams per hour during competition.  Either that means partitioning the courts off,  or using the ends of the gym.  I would not like to fly where the net is suspended. (about 24-25 ft.) where a hang up is risky.  The other two courts which are side by side are only limited by the lights and are of sufficient width.  Of course, some drift is possible into another teams space.

Jerry
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ceandra
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 02:49:14 PM »

They did 10 teams per time slot in a single court last year, so should not be a traffic issue with more space. Thanks for the measurements to the lights.

Chuck
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jdpsloflyer
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2018, 10:47:44 AM »

Pictures showing the gym.
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jdpsloflyer
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »

I live in Fort Collins, Colorado where CSU is located.
Been here for 60 yrs, married to a 4th generation native.

If you want information or to meet, I am retired with plenty of time.

Message me, or call, 970-988-5018.
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ceandra
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 06:06:08 PM »

In addition to our rented gym, we have been practicing with my R/C club twice a month (Albuquerque R/C Club). They fly vapors, quads, etc, indoor R/C. A lot are old indoor FF men. They have been very kind to the kids. Whenever they see the kids winding, one of them will shout out and everybody lands to make way!

Further, the old men have been inspired by the kids. Last night they converted the third Tuesday in odd months to "Rubber Only". Last night we had about 5 men flying, several with new planes. Nothing special, but inspired by SO kids! They still landed their stuff when the kids were ready to fly. So many came over to look at our torque meter (digital scale and bearing block), winder with pedometer counter, lubes, flaring props, and of course our plane.

Looking forward to trying something of my own once SO is over. Perhaps a Gowen LPP or some sort.

One guy last night, Stu, gave me 4 sheets of 1/32" contest grade, 2 C-grain and 2 A-grain.

So, the SO impact goes both ways. I have excited kids and excited old men!

Heading to Ft. Collins tomorrow. Our WS and Heli are working well, kids hoping to medal in both. We'll surprise some top teams, I hope!

All a result of this forum group saving my bacon 2 years ago when I knew NOTHING about indoor!

Thanks Guys!
Chuck
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Olbill
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 09:46:55 AM »

Good work Chuck. I think you're inspiring more people than you realize.

And good luck at the Nats!
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ceandra
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 11:56:38 PM »

Well, it's over, we done good.

Albuquerque Area Home Schoolers are national champs in C division helicopter, and second in Wright Stuff. WS decided by tenths of a second, Tower Heights won. I was impressed by their kids decision making in adjusting rubber after first flight. My kids showed their experience, over 350 flights in ws, and hundreds in heli, when they needed to make decisions and adjustments on the fly. Very proud.

Thanks again to all on this forum, your help has been heeded.

Now I need some sleep!

Chuck


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Olbill
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2018, 12:40:35 AM »

Well done!!!

Can you share the flight times?
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Little-Acorn
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 01:45:52 AM »

Excellent, Chuck. Good job!

Can you let us know the details of their flights? Videos?
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ceandra
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2018, 02:16:41 AM »

I believe some of my parents will get me videos. I had a camera in my pocket all day, but nervous wreck, never used it!

WS we planned a no-touch, but launched a bit high, and lightly touched a light. Fell about 2 feet and continued on, so not bad. Otherwise a nice flight. 43.5cm rubber, Gowen style prop with 1/32" wood blades formed on a cereal bowl (conical), 1.25" chord. About 2500 winds, and unwind to 0.25 launch torque.

Second flight they went to 42.5cm rubber for a bit more altitude, to "beat up the lights". There was flying room above the lights, thought we would either hit them or get lucky and get through. We hit, it redirected and later hit B'ball posts. Was worth a try. Tower Heights did similar, but got through and made a lap or so above the lights before getting knocked down.

Heli, we did a test flight on heli #2 at 2:30 into prep to get the bonus. 40 (x10) turns on each side, while Brianna wound the real rubber. Heli 1 was definitely our best, giving 3:15 in the hotel room with 8 foot ceiling, but it struggled with one rotor more thrust than other. Knowing some key schools had flown poorly, we backed off to 0.5 and 0.6 on the launch torque to try to adapt to the rotor issue, but it still turned too much and hit the wall. The kids immediately went to get heli #2, since they knew if flew straight. This one, on same rubber, was 2:59 in the hotel. They kept the torque reasonable (0.6 on both) to be safe, and it flew straight. We flew on 0.065g/in rubber, 36cm loops.

Big issue I saw was that schools that typically flew 3+ minutes were clustered around 2:40. Since we fly at altitude (Abq), when we saw 3+ online, we fought hard to keep up, and did so. So we apparently were already out-performing due to altitude. Either that or they did no adjust rubber or pitch to match altitude.

In the last 2 weeks we had extended our motor sticks on heli by 3.5" to 13.5", because we were building at 2.8g. We observed that we were invariably coming down with a full row of knots in the rubber. On a test stand we found the thrust dropped sharply at this point, but less so with longer motor stick. We made a few other adjustments to our design, and were able to build the longer heli at 2.85g. First try was a disaster, our MS wood, 1/8" square sticks, was pithy and failed in air. They rebuilt twice in the last week after we finally did a LOT of wood cutting and testing to find stiff (buckling) but light sticks. Out of 30 sticks cut from 8 sheets we found 3 usable.

The kids were persistent, and insisted on keeping going when we were all tired, and it paid off.

They actually got to the point they could build a fully rigged heli fuselage in about 1:15, and a pair of rotors in about 1:30 or 1:45. We built 10 rotor sets (plus some un-numbered singles for the test stand) and 6 fuselages.

Chuck
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bjt4888
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 10:12:11 AM »

Chuck,

Very happy for your teams. Outstanding effort and results!

Brian T.
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SyLa-20871
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2018, 07:44:23 AM »

Congratulations Chuck!

Get some much needed sleep........next week it is time to start thinking about the 2018-2019 season.  Cheesy

All the best,
Lee
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ceandra
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 09:06:35 AM »

Why wait to next week?

Chuck
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SyLa-20871
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 11:54:01 AM »

You are killing me Chuck!  I was wiped out for a week after States.  Hopefully we will get to go to States again next year.  It was a lot of fun. :-)

Best,
Lee
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