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Author Topic: Thermal Piglet has got me stalled! (pun intended)  (Read 3034 times)
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Black Arrow
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« on: March 16, 2008, 08:16:08 PM »

I tried building some HL FF gliders some years back. I started out with a small beginners model known as the Pup Chuck with an 11 1/2" span. I built two. They both flew well, to me at least, but of course one was a little better than the other. I threw and threw. I tweaked and threw some more. Learned how to launch them and get a nice transition. Never managed to catch any lift but the 15 to 18 second flights were pretty to watch.

I went to spectate at a contest and asked a guy who was flying HL FF gliders for some help. I showed him my planes and he said they were very nicely built but the main problem was that they were too small to get any real launch height and I should try something larger. Armed with this advice I bought the next kit in the series called the "Would Chuck". This is a polyhedral design of about 14" span. I had more trouble getting the Would Chuck trimmed than the first planes. It seemed to want to barrel roll at the top of any launch that had some power and height. I did, however, kind of learn how to deal with it's idiosyncracies and managed to get a flight of 47 seconds.

Well along came the Thermal Piglet. Now THIS was a BIG CONTEST glider! Man, it even had a DT device! I was sure things would get lots better when I got theThermal Piglet built. You all know what comes next, right? Right! I threw my arm nearly off my shoulder. Never did get a really nice flight out that bugger. Seems like I have a choice with that plane. 1: I can get a lot (way more than my other planes) of launch height and then watch it pitch over and lawn dart itself every single time. Or 2: I can launch more toward the level of the horizon and get a nice, low, relatively smooth but short flight.

A 20 year younger friend was watching me beat my brains out with the Piglet at lunch time one day. He wanted to try it. I said: Sure. Here's how it's usually done. Darned if he wasn't getting at least 10 -15 foot higher launches than me after only about half a dozen tries! He actually got that thing to "go over the hump" and transition into a nice glide pattern with a little altitude. Something I had never really been able to do with it. As he watched it begin to drift down wind, he said something like "Oh @#$%!" and began to run after it. It probably only went 150 yards but it was the best flight ever from that plane. I had half a notion to give it to him on the spot but I guess I must like frustration because I decided that I would rather prove to myself that I could conquer that demon.

I still have the Thermal Piglet. I just went and looked at it. I think it was grinning at me from the dark recesses of it's specially constructed cardboard storage box down there in the basement. It knows what I am thinking. It knows it's going to have at least one more chance to destroy my shoulder and send me off to get some anti inflamatories from the pharmacist. I could swear I heard a tiny little chuckle come from somewhere in the basement just as the flick of the light switch plunged it into blackness.

Question: Is there such a thing as having enough arm to launch a glider to a decent altitude but not quite enough to get it "over the hump" (a term I may or may not have invented) so that it levels out and makes a transition to glide mode? Anyone?

Dan G are you out there? LOL!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 10:00:21 PM by Black Arrow » Logged

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Kev
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 12:55:37 PM »

when I get home this evening - I will have a look as have the plans you refer to. Will be able to advise better when I have seen them and get you over this problem area.

Kev
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 02:56:42 PM »

The extra throw and height comes from a few sources my friend. The first is to have the model aerodynamically smooth as you can. Remember, I build on glass to prevent any thing indenting the wing or any other part of it. I apply two coats of sanding sealer, allowed to dry and then rubbed to a smoother finish and then all again before I then use Tuff Kote gloss finish on all the flying surfaces. This gives a solid, waterproof small increase in weight but rock solid structure. Trust me - this stuff is good.

To aid this smoothness, I even cut the nose and lay in the ballast (lead) so its in line with the whole fuz. Its not sticking out anywhere and I even then round off the edges to ensure that its does not affect the flow of air. I no longer use a full 1/4 inch wedge under the wing either tapering. I used a 1/16 ply that I mark up and cut into the wing again to keep things smooth as a finger tab.

All that done, once the model is trimmed, its a case of leaving the ship alone and taking time to practice throwing. I used a wall at a local school where on an evening / weekend I would take a tennis ball and I would aim at one specific brick about 45 degrees upwards from where I was stood. I would throw and throw and then start to move back. Naturally the angle lessens as you do, but the ball must go into that same place.
 
If it was calm, I would take a hlg, put on a five second dt and then pick a spot in the sky, a cloud, anything and that model had to be going that way when she dt'd. It took a lot of practice. However, the muscle develops memory and when it comes to the airfield, then start by warming up again. Stretching is great, get a tennis ball and start throwing it (I used to do this with a co flyer across a runway) and we would do this for about 20 minutes before starting to get higher and higher. Once then done, the hlgs came out. Its all down to constant practice. Remember though, that in ff - hlg is the one class that causes more damage to the body than any other discipline. Its non forgiving and if you want to know how I know - Dislocated shoulder - minimum of twice per season, torn ligaments, rotator cuff now pretty much destroyed, torn abdominal muscles, vomiting from exertion, torn muscle fibres in the forearms and biceps - these were all regular things for me. I gave it everything.

Practice makes it come - trust me. I had a throw over the first few feet of in excess of 120mph - also clocked at Ontario Science Museum consistently over a 100. It all came with practice (and a little body building!)

Kev
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Black Arrow
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 11:48:15 PM »

Well Kev, you've impressed the heck outta me! My gliders exhibit a nice finish. Used Deft clear wood finish and water sanded them. They feel soft and silky but I don't think they are anywhere near up to your standards.I could certainly do a good bit more to clean them up aerodynamically too but right now I'm sure learning to throw and trim better are more important.

After reading your post I doubt I will ever enjoy HLG on anything more than a casual basis. At age 62 I'm just not ready for dislocated shoulders, torn muscles and further damage to my already injured rotator cuff (cycling accident). However, I certainly do appreciate your sharing of so much hard gained knowledge and information. Not sure I truly understand the nuances of trim but I'm going to try and follow your directives. In fact, I've printed out your post and put it in the box with my gliders.

Even though I am not a competitor I think I enjoy watching a good flight as much as anybody, especially when it's one of my planes that I happen to be watching! I just love it when they're floating along in a nice circle and don't seem to be coming down at all. Every time I exceed a previous best time ti's quite a good feeling and if I ever get two minutes I'll probably jump for joy and have a beer to celebrate it.

You have been generous. Thank you!
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2008, 08:30:57 AM »


After reading your post I doubt I will ever enjoy HLG on anything more than a casual basis. At age 62 I'm just not ready for dislocated shoulders, torn muscles and further damage to my already injured rotator cuff (cycling accident).

Try TLG. Quite honestly, the models very forgiving, and there's little danger of injury. For me, a handlaunch session with a TLG is just good exercise. As others have said, it involves pretty much the same muscles as are used in a golf swing. The only trick is to take care that you don't trip. Been there, done that...
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Dan G.
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 01:06:22 PM »

A little qualification is in order here, which has to do with both the style of my flying and my choice of plane. I do set myself a little apart from other flyers around me. Their planes tend to a little smaller and they fly tighter, thermal-hugging patterns ... and they win more than I do. All these differences are because I am flying an indoor glider outdoors and I haven't changed the trim very much from indoors.

The plane (Supersweep 22)has a higher aspect ratio (span/mean chord) and less dihedral than is typical for outdoors. And the latest indoor records are with planes which have these features extended even more. I make them very light at 26 grams. My personal prejudice plays here -- I fly more for fun and rarely in competition. I like the way these planes look, especially when flying. I like those more graceful, open patterns, the slightly wandering (deviates with slightest provocation), wide circles, the no-fuss launch almost straight up to the belly flop. But my ships do fall out of thermals because of this open pattern and lack of dihedral, while others' keep bouncing in tight little circles.

I don't use a dethermalizer with hlg. (not for lack of consideration). I don't like the fuss involved either in the construction, but especially in the flying -- it ruins the rhythm. I want to be able to run up to the model -- pluck it out of the sky if I can manage to -- run back up-wind and throw ... non-stop, effectively. On my neatest, short sessions, the plane won't have a chance to touch the ground. I don't often fly in boomy conditions (often accompanied by some wind), but if it is calm. except for thermals, I will fly planes I don't mind losing so much, or trim a touch nose down and fly the spiral edge so it won't hold a thermal -- any upset and the plane spirals, sometimes to the ground, sometimes not. This is a hairy trim and I don't usually persist too long and am grateful to return to a more relaxed and forgiving trim and fly later.

I hadn't examined my hlg career in such a succinct manner (cause and effect) before, but I see now how it has tracked and why -- my choice of flying style, planes, and perhaps why I've never thrown my arm-out with airplanes (as opposed to balls and stones).

I guess I would like to say that there are different ways of approaching things, depending on what you can get out of it. Were I purposely flying to win, I would have smaller, more tightly coupled aircraft, with a more horizontal and violent throw. But almost all my flying is done for fun and exhibition (spectators really motivate me like nothing else), and I only fly in favourable conditions, in a park whose thermals tend to be gentle, often releasing the aircraft at its periphery -- very convenient. But on my second to last outing last year, I got a twelve-minute flight, and I'd have caught it, had it not landed on a road with traffic. And I bet, as a lone flyer, I couldn't have more fun and exercise.

So Black Arrow, you do have to like throwing and be able to throw -- hard to have one without the other. But if something isn't working for you, try a different approach ... evolve your own purpose, method, and passion -- there are a few different ways with a few different rewards -- some should serve you best.

Dan G.
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Black Arrow
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2008, 07:07:02 PM »

Thanks, Dan G. I'm pretty sure I get the drift of what you're saying. AT 62 with 5 bypasses on my heart a lot of my priorities have changed. I'm just looking to have some fun with my little planes. Competition or being the best at something just aren't in my horizons. I'm pretty sure I'll keep on throwin' just need to learn more about trimming and maybe lower my expectations a bit. I'm still havin' fun!

Bruce
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2008, 10:16:00 PM »

Hay guys,

Why not jump over and try Tip Launched Gliders or Discus Launched gliders as it is called. Check out the subject. Its just the answer for old arms. I watched old RC fliers launch about 15 flights a day for two days and without anyone complaining about a tired arm. Check it out on this forum.

Alan Mkitarian
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Dan G.
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2008, 10:44:04 PM »

Hi Black Arrow,

Sigh ... last night I submitted a rather long posting which didn’t register, so I shall try to reproduce it here. It would have been entered as Reply #4

I do most of the things that Kev does to his planes, just a little less perfectly. My nose weight (1/16’) thick is glued to the side of the nose and faired with epoxy, and I don’t always fill the grain, I do finish with gloss urethane and my finger guard is also 1/16’ ply. But having a less than clean plane costs seconds – it doesn’t mean the plane won’t fly or perform. I still fly old and damaged planes.

When I first started, I tried many designs and plans, and some of them flew pretty weird – none of them flew very well. I do think that size has to do with my success because nothing would perform until my wings reached 20” in span. I had settled on and built a few “La Milla”s (20 x 3 ½”, parallel chord wing). But, when I saw a Sweepette for the first time, I thought that was the plane for me – that 4’’ root chord really does complete a good hlg wing – and I’ve never faltered since. Within a few years, I went to a modified Sweepette called the “Superseep 22”. After a couple of small modifications, I have never been able to figure out how to further improve it. I have made about one hundred of these, and lost about two-thirds of those.

I have made a few other designs during this period, but none approached satisfactory performance.

I too am sixty-two years old, but I have never hurt my arm throwing an hlg – stones and balls, another matter. I think that the grip and throw required just doesn’t allow a full shoulder and arm throw, especially the final snap at the end, which does pull your arm out of its socket. Probably more importantly, I fly a steep launch so the normal wind-up and entire-body-into-it never takes place.

Throwing is mysterious. I believe in individual, born-with-it-ability. My hunch is that throwing can’t likely be taught if there is no innate ability – refined and honed, yes, but even then, only so much. I have practiced and tried over and over, and often, the harder I try or train, the worse I throw. Sometimes I throw best when I’ve been away a little. Sometimes I throw best when I don’t try too hard. My strength always does wane and the heights diminish, as the session wears on.

And I too have had a young swimmer pick up my glider, and with a quick snap had it so high it was astonishing. I have seen slight people whip one of these up with little effort, and large men who could hardly boost it up at all. It is not a question of strength but of coordination – which is why it is so hard to teach and to train. When you think of the very intricate progression of muscle pulls, through four articulations, in such delicate order that we will perhaps never be able to describe medically the difference between a winner and a dud, and this happens explosively.

And now, I am losing coordination. I just have not weakened enough to explain the loss in my launch heights. I do exercise, hard, but whereas I can climb harder trees, it has never done my throwing any good. Haven’t you ever wondered why winners are always young, even when the achievement doesn’t require unusual strength? Think of curling or golf. I used to be a good snooker player. Around my mid to late thirties, I began to falter. I left the game for a while and devoted more time to modelling. Then I tried to stage a come-back – how pathetic. I was shocked at my inability. I trained for six months (and nearly went broke) but nothing helped. I was over the hill. It is a question of coordination – not strength.

Undeniably however, success with these planes is still very launch-dependent – a little bit off and the plane recovers poorly, so getting those launching angles (climb and bank) is critical. I have written a trim schedule in another thread earlier, but if you would like, Black Arrow, I’ll happily supply another or a more detailed explanation.

Dan G.
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 12:29:17 PM »

I have enjoyed Dan G.'s comments and observations on this subject, very interesting.

I too am getting older (53) and have always been big and quite physically strong (football, wrestling, weight lifting and the like) but I have never been able to through a baseball very well nor a HLG and not for a lack of trying or lack of muscle. I simply couldn't get the muscles and limbs working together (the right kind of coordination).

If you haven't already considered, you might consider catapult launching the thing. My interest in these size gliders has been rekindled since I started launching them that way (and my arm and shoulders thank me)

cheers, Graham in Ottawa<
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Dan G.
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 07:08:17 PM »

Hi Black Arrow,

I think Graham's right -- catapult is the way to go fer old fellas.

I'm gonna stick it out for now with the old arm because I've still got some to go, but I don't think it's gonna be for long.

If I'm guessing right, I'll bet it's easier to launch the right bank and angle with a catapult, too.

Dan G.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2008, 10:19:24 PM »


I think Graham's right -- catapult is the way to go fer old fellas.

I'm gonna stick it out for now with the old arm because I've still got some to go, but I don't think it's gonna be for long.

Guys, I'm going to say this again: go try TLG. It is the answer to what you're looking for. I've been to two contests now where these things were being flown, and they make traditional HLG's look like child's play. They render javelin launch totally and completely obsolete. There's no way you can get a javelin glider as high as a TLG will go, and the TLG is bigger and has a lower wingloading to boot. Except for postals, I don't even waste my time with javelin gliders anymore. There are too many things I need my right arm for, including holding the yoke when flight instructing, and the possibility of ruining that arm later in life just because of some stupid attraction to old-style gliders is just plain dumb. Like I said, TLG transforms glider flying from self-destruction to good exercise. There are plenty of good kits out there, so go try one. It's really worth the trouble, and they are easy to get into the air.

If someone doesn't want to build from a kit, contact me for info on this model; it's a greatly scaled up Perryman Whistler with a few changes (narrowed wing, etc) and it is incredibly stable. Even with my weak, uncoordinated launches, it gets at least as high as any HLG I've ever built, and it's has a zillion repairs from when I was learning the structural side of things. A new one would probably launch significantly higher and certainly glide much better.

And here's a video of the only TLG you'll ever see flying left/left:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8387428286910458793
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Re: Thermal Piglet has got me stalled! (pun intended)
Re: Thermal Piglet has got me stalled! (pun intended)
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Dan G.
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 02:28:56 AM »

Hi Maxout,

I don't doubt you for a second. My current two objections -- besides the fact that I haven't built anything I didn't need for teaching for several years -- are that I'm an old dog and very fond of the old game, and my park wouldn't contain a larger plane.

I would gladly try throwing one for the experience, and I imagine that at some point, I will build one.

Furthermore, I would advise any interested person to try a tip-launched glider. I do believe in their capability and their ease to altitude. I'm with you in spirit, Maxout.

Dan G.
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2008, 07:07:06 PM »

I had a Thermal Piglet that never flew worth a darn, too. I could never get it to climb in a sustained bank, then transition. My theory is that there is too much dihedral, thus causing it to right itself too quickly. When I added a washin wedge, the plane would simply do a 360 roll.

Not that I'm an expert with HLG's, but I never had the same kind of problems with other HLGs. I had a 6 min (thermal assisted) flight with a Mini Flash:

http://www.faimodelsupply.com/fai7-camp.htm
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2008, 09:51:51 AM »

I thought I was unique in having problems with Piglets. I've had a couple, and now just keep one to play around with. Teaches one to deal with frustration. But, one man's meat is another man's poison. I have usually had my best flights with the Flash design, since I built my first one from the original article in the Flying Models magazine. Built many, had many OOS with them, except at contests. Kind of gave up on them about 4 years ago, because they build a bit on the heavy side, and a day's flying left me sore for a couple days after. Then I had a small stroke in 2005, and as part of the recovery process, I started working out in my company's fitness center. I have flown a couple contests this year, and have had no soreness in the 64 year old arm and shoulder, even flying a Graupner Slipper, which is similar in weight to the Flash.
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2008, 11:27:42 AM »

I just rechecked, and the plane I had issues with was the Middle Piglet. Again, I think it is due to excessive dihedral. But, the plan specifically says that it has a lot of dihedral, but that it needs it.
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2008, 11:33:45 AM »

Mulligan,

 Can you get a video of that critter? I can't understand why it's being such a pain for you. Two panel gliders can be a little touchy, but shouldn't be that much so. Dihedral normally makes them easier to fly, not harder.
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 11:51:48 AM »

I think the best flight I ever had with them (yep, the Middle Piglet, Thermal Piglet without the DT, I got them to go straight out in a 1/2 loop,with a half-roll out on top. About 1 launch in 50. I've flown a few designs had worse results, but a lot more I had better results with.
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 12:15:10 PM »

Hi Maxout if you still have the information on that TLG I would appreciate receiving it. I would like to try a TLG as I have some experience with Cat and HL Gliders for fun only not competitive. I have thought of buying a kit but still haven't brought myself to dispose of the cash on it just yet.

Steve
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2008, 09:37:08 PM »

I'm sure glad to hear that others haven't had the best of results with their Thermal Piglets either. I liked the one about teaching one to deal with frustration! Having read these responses I can now throw the damned thing away without any remorse and go onto something else! Thanks guys!

On second thought, maybe I'll save the wood. It is pretty light and resonably strong. LOL!
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Mr._Mulligan
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2008, 10:55:30 PM »

Mulligan,

 Can you get a video of that critter? I can't understand why it's being such a pain for you. Two panel gliders can be a little touchy, but shouldn't be that much so. Dihedral normally makes them easier to fly, not harder.

The plane no longer exists. After a few crashes and fuselage repairs later, it eventually went to the local park in the sky...
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2018, 01:45:04 PM »

I realize that I am replying to a ten year old series of posts.

The Thermal piglet went through a series of minor design changes over a 12 year period.

The three.main things that came out of the testing were the following.

1.)  Increase the dihedral to where it is now.

2.)  Remove sweep back.  (There was a small amount.)

3.)   Decrease rudder area.  A strip about .1/8" wide was removed from the front of the rudder.

Make sure your fuselage is straight and the flying surfaces are warp free.

Now for the issues.

1.)  The model does not want to pull out at the top. If the model is climbing well, the angular difference between the wing and stab should be OK.  Test this by adding up elevator to the right side of the.stab. This will stay put if you installed the enclosed wires. If this cures the problem, then you are all set. If the model tends to chase its tail and not get as high, the first thing to try.is bending the left side of the stab downwards.   This is called the Conover twist.

2.)   The model goes left at the top.  Too much left rudder and .possibly a lack of incidence.

3.)   The model does not circle in the glide ?   Make sure you have the correct amount of left stab tilt and a bit of clay on the left wingtip.

The Piglet series:  The first Thermal Piglet was built in 1979.  kits appeared in 1980.

The .Tiny Piglet was built in the spring of 1980 and kitted later that year. The .size was .75% of the Thermal Piglet.  The fuselage was .1/8" Spruce,  Wing 3/16" balsa. and Tail feathers of 1/16" .balsa.  .When 1/20" balsa became available to me, that was used for the tail feathers.

The Middle Piglet .875 the size of the Thermal Piglet.  Fuselage 1/4" balsa.  Tail .feathers 1/20" and the wing  1/4".  This model was easier to build lightly.  In my opinion it is the best of the bunch.

I hope this .helps somebody

Lee Campbell
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2018, 09:41:02 PM »

The information is always timely.(pun intended)
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