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Author Topic: Minislick -Build-  (Read 8871 times)
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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2010, 08:27:42 AM »

Wing posts and tissue tubes.

Wing posts are not the place to try and save weight on an indoor model. I have a plank of straight grained 3/32" wood I save just for this purpose. It's about 12# density and strips easily due to the straight grain. First I stripped off an .035" piece with my Tyson stripper and then stripped that one to about .065". The dimensions are not critical since they will be used as the mandrel for making the tissue tubes.

First we need to cut an .030" x .040" notch for the LE & TE wing glue joint. For a secure joint, you want as many surfaces of the post touching as many surfaces on the wing, in this case 3 including the rib. You would prefer the high part of the notch not poking into the covering. A test fit never hurts.
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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2010, 08:30:31 AM »

Now for the tissue tubes. You need two thin strips of tissue and a little Duco.

I first tack a piece of tissue to the wing post and let it dry a bit. Then coat the entire piece of tissue with a thin layer of Duco and begin wrapping. I wait a few seconds for the Duco to flash off before removing the tissue tube. If you wait too long you will be starting again as the tissue will become a permanent part of the post. This is a good time to attach the LE tube to the fuselage. Don't loose the second one.

Those with a keen eye will notice I sanded away some of the motorstick behind the rear of the pigtail bearing. You cannot have enough room for rubber when you're putting a 15" loop in less than a 5" space.
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 08:48:14 AM by Alan Cohen » Logged

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Alan Cohen
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2010, 08:44:10 AM »

Now comes attaching the posts to the wing. I still have my original wing post jig from my very first Hobby Shopper EZB. It has been modified to accommodate ministick wingtips. I through away all those nasty red-headed pins years ago, but still have these two for this jig. I have no idea why?

You want the LE post to be 90ยบ in both planes. This jig really helps. If you want to see how it's built, refer to the article at http://www.indoorduration.com. Then go to Articles/Hobby Shopper Construction Guide. In my opinion, this article is a labor of love and by far the greatest gift to this part of the hobby.

Anyway, a picture tells 1000 words. This is how to wing posts are installed.

The rear wing post is installed at a slight angle which, when inserted into the tissue tube, will create some washin on the left wing panel. I want about 1/16 of an inch at the left dihedral rib. The final adjustment always seems to have to be made with the wing mounted on the plane, but skewing the rear post helps get things started. I'm hoping one day I'll get lucky and have a "Fonzie in the mirror" moment.
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2010, 09:11:34 AM by Alan Cohen » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2010, 01:13:39 PM »

One of the most interesting things about this build is that there is very close to nothing in Alan's techniques that are like mine. It's amazing how many different ways intelligent people can come up with to have the same or similar end result. And of course the value is that when you're watching someone else use totally different techniques there will also be those moments where you say "That's neat ! I never thought of doing it that way."
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2010, 03:03:28 PM »

Glad you're enjoying the build Bill. I posted this build to show others that have not ventured into the indoor duration arena that there really is no mystery to it. I never thought that other indoor builders would find it the least bit interesting. I assumed everyone did things the right way my way Wink

For me it's less a virtue of intelligence as it is laziness. You know what they say, if you what to find the easiest way to do something, ask the laziest person.

Here's my high-tech stab alignment jig. A tiny amount of starboard tilt and an eyeball for squareness.
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2010, 08:55:28 PM »

I threw an old prop on to see what it looks like in the air. It needs a tad more washin on the left wing to level the flight a bit more, but otherwise it looks great. Here's a video of its maiden voyage... you might have to wait a few minutes to get it in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJmnkC1tTtQ

As I feared, after adjusting the incidence to where it needs to be to get a nice floaty flight profile, it looks like there is several degrees of decalage once again. You'll see on the video just how fast it snaps back after bumping something. Oh well. I'll try it again after I weight it with the new prop and see how much ballast it needs and where I could put it.
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2010, 09:18:33 PM »

From the side view it looks to have a lot of declage (wing LE is very high) so the CG is likely too far forward. Can you make a lighter prop? Or heavier stab or boom? Or just add some ballast to the rear.

Sure flies nice though!

Tony
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2010, 09:39:12 PM »

CG is 1/8" behind the rear wing post without rubber. With rubber probably right at the rear post. You can see in the pic that it's still tail heavy when trying to balance on the rear post. This prop is 94mg bringing the whole thing to 410. The new one will be 70mg leaving 40 for ballast.
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2010, 10:09:24 PM »

Just fly the way Romash does at Kent - put a Lakehurst wind on it and let it bang the ceiling. Then you'll be happy with the quick recovery! (or you'll get hung like most everybody else does who tries this idea)
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2010, 10:31:01 PM »

I wish I had Rob's good fortune. Me, well mine found the ceiling fan on its very first flight! That's all you need to know about my luck in this hobby.
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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2010, 10:38:53 PM »

Your Minislick build became into a great tutorial Alan. Thanks for sharing your techniques, pics and videos included!

Bravo!

Julio
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2010, 12:51:52 AM »

I wish I had Rob's good fortune. Me, well mine found the ceiling fan on its very first flight! That's all you need to know about my luck in this hobby.

Last year I hung my F1L on a record attempt, ballooned it off, and then it hung again on one of the lights before I could catch it. Scratch #1 F1L! The backup ship wouldn't cut it in a desperation last flight. I'm planning on bringing 3 trimmed models this year to try again.
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2010, 10:02:57 AM »

I know this was treated on a different thread, and to my mind no firm conclusion was drawn, but I still can't understand why you people build more and more fragile props and then add nosewieght. Isn't it more sensible to make the prop a bit more robust? Or move the wing back a tenth or two?

And don't tell me about gyroscopic forces building from a prop that weighs nothing and is turning maybe 100 RPM. If such forces existed, they'd only work to the betterment of the flight pattern (but they don't exist).

Got my rubber cutter. I love it, but can't get the Ron White line about the sunglasses and the 27 inch color TV out of my head.

Art.
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2010, 10:18:11 AM »

The issue on this model is that the CG is too far forward resulting in excess incidence to achieve a good flight profile. The light prop in this case is to move the CG rearward. Ballast will be added to the tail, not the nose.

It is possible my insistence on getting the model to fly "on the step" might be misplaced. Normally, to achieve best flight times on indoor models you adjust the incidence so the model cruises just below the point where it begins to stall and 'porpoise'. This slows the prop down and achieves a very floaty flight pattern. It also results in a very aggressive climb on ministicks. Great for Lakehurst, not Kent. Maybe we try for a little less incidence. It might hurt the cruise and/or descent, but also might help keep it out of the ceiling lights.
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2010, 03:40:18 PM »

I still can't understand why you people build more and more fragile props and then add noseweight. Isn't it more sensible to make the prop a bit more robust?

I'm not sure who you are referring to as "you people". In most cases involving indoor duration models the entire model including the prop is built to be as strong as possible and still be at or under the minimum weight. Building an overly fragile prop and then adding noseweight would be ridiculous. OTOH reducing the prop weight in order to redistribute the weight (as Alan has done) or strengthen some other part of the model is perfectly valid.
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2010, 06:24:01 PM »

"You People"... I think I first heard the phrase used by Rush Limbaugh; I don't exactly remember the context but if Rush used it it can only be a Good Thing. It's been more recently used around here by a CFII to refer to those of us who've shown no interest in flying IFR.

I use it, in this case, to mean super experts for whom I have huge respect, and on whose every word I hang.

a.
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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2010, 10:13:18 AM »

You indoor fliers amaze me how you can build these models and make them fly so well! I being an outdoor rubber model flyer has always wanted to try indoor flying. I assume on your video Alan that you had used a torque meter to wind...I wished you could show the whole process of getting your bird prepared to fly in steps.

For me that would be most interesting...seeing your stooge so I would know what was needed...your torque meter and how to load the motor onto your model. I would think most new comers would also benefit from the details of preparing the model.

Thank you for the fine thread and I hope to see more...

Thank You Alan.... Craig h
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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2010, 12:19:16 PM »

I'll second Craig's request. I think I know what's involved, but I'd like to see how Alan does it too. Grin

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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2010, 12:32:43 PM »

Here's my winding setup. I'll start a new topic to explain further so Alan can describe his methods here.
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« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2010, 01:08:56 PM »

I've seen a lot of indoor winding stooges and I don't think I've ever seen two alike. I use the Cezar Banks torque meter made from the same ole plans that have been kicking around forever. http://gallery.scioly.org/details.php?image_id=2019 This one is set up for EZB and ministick with a max torque of .2"oz. Tim Goldstein has a wire calculator on his indoorduration.com site under Utilities for calculating how thick and how long a piece of MW should be. He also has a dial generator there for printing the face.

My set up is in the first pic. I made a foot and a wire stop for my Wilder Winder. The stooge is just two pieces of aluminum c-channel c-clamped to the table with a foot receptacle on the end fashioned from misc aluminum angle and flat stock.

My motor handling methods are a bit unorthodox. I'll make a video later and post it.
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« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2010, 01:19:18 PM »

You indoor fliers amaze me how you can build these models and make them fly so well! I being an outdoor rubber model flyer has always wanted to try indoor flying. I assume on your video Alan that you had used a torque meter to wind... I wished you could show the whole process of getting your bird prepared to fly in steps.

Actually, for that video, and anytime I'm just trim/fun flying, I put one end of the motor on the winder, the other in my mouth, but don't tell anybody.
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« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2010, 12:28:58 AM »

Alan,

What is the wire contraption mounted on the bottom of the brass main tube on the outside? Is it some way to release the tension on the meter after winding? The drawing you linked to for Banks' torque meter design is a bit too small to zoom in and see clearly.

Tony
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« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2010, 12:40:57 AM »

Yes, there is a wheel collar on the front of the dial which acts like a knob/handle and another one at the rear of the torque wire with a small machine screw inserted. When the release wire is "in" it engages the machine screw, stops the torque wire from turning and displays the torque reading. When you pull it out it spins freely allowing a quick unwind of the motor.
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2010, 12:50:35 AM »

That's interesting. Can you tell me how or why/when this feature would be used?

Tony
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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2010, 06:16:47 AM »

Hum... when someone comes up and asks you "how/why/when this feature would be used" while you're winding and you lose count and need to start over would be one situation. Achieving 15 minutes with a ministick involves over 4000 turns. Easy to lose count.

Also, the stooge is a good place to break in a motor. Winding to 80-90% max torque and letting the motor sit for 5 minutes and then rewinding is a good practice.

The alternative to the release mechanism is letting your winder unwind. But that's just extra wear and tear that's not necessary.
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