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Author Topic: Winders, winding stooge, torque meters, winding methods  (Read 32568 times)
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Olbill
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« Reply #325 on: December 30, 2016, 01:38:45 PM »

You can buy a FliteTork digital meter from Mike Kirda at propblocks.com (email at propblocks@gmail.com). Many are being used around the country for all classes of indoor models.
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« Reply #326 on: December 30, 2016, 04:40:13 PM »

I have looked at those but it is a out of my budget, right now all of my money is going toward a rubber stripper.
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« Reply #327 on: December 31, 2016, 12:37:41 PM »

Ross,
-As I say in the first paragraph you don't have to read all I have written below but one attached graph will tell you what wire size is needed for what torque and the table will tell you how long the wire must be.  A picture of one of my own torque meters is attached to reply #15 on this thread and costs virtually nothing.  The electronic torque meters are not necessarily better. The twisted wire type with a large dial are often easier to read when winding.
I have drawn up a couple of graphs (attached below) that I hope will be of help to people interested in making torque meters.  First, for those enquiring minds that need to know, I will give some background with a nod towards mathematics – you don’t have to nod back, the graphs work without any mathematical fiddling so if you want you can jump straight to the paragraph headed HOW TO SELECT A TORQUE WIRE.

The torsion formula for round bars looks like this:

T/J = 2f/d = GA/L

It is in three parts separated by equal signs and any two parts can be used together.  T is torque in inch.lb, J is called the polar moment of inertia but is simply calculated from the wire diameter so J=pi.d^4/32, f is the stress in lb/sq.in, d is the wire diameter in inches, G is known as the Modulus of Rigidity, a characteristic of the material, measured in lb/sq.in, A is the amount the bar is twisted in radians, L is the length of the wire in inches.

Dealing first with the material characteristics, I think a maximum stress of 50 tons, 112,000 lb/sq.in is sensible for wires of this type and size and that is what I have used for the graphs. (Note, some torque wire calculators on the Internet do not even consider stress which makes them useless.)  I have used a figure of 11,500,000 lb/sq.in for G, the Modulus of Rigidity, again well established for this type of wire.

I recommend that you use one full turn as the maximum deflexion, this gives the best scale for accurate reading.  This may not be so important for outdoor work where the main consideration is the maximum torque in the motor but for Indoor flying where maximum turns are not always used, where overwinding and backing off to a torque is usual and where it is often useful in testing to know the landing torque then accurate torque figures are good.  Accuracy is good for rubber testing as well.  The graphs are based on one full turn and there is no worry about overstressing the wire because the stress is calculated at one full turn.  (Although not of major importance the fact that one full turn in radians is equal to 2 pi is a convenience!)  Nearly forgot!  The graphs assume one full turn.

To produce the table I took the  2f/d = GA/L  part of the equation, used the figures mentioned above for f and G, did some rearranging and came up with the following interesting equation:
L = 323d  i.e. the working length of the wire should be 323 times the wire diameter in all cases for one full turn.
To produce the graphs (they are both the same, just a different range of sizes) I used the T/J = 2f/d part of the equation and slipped in a 16 to change the in.lb of torque into in.oz.  Rearranging gave the following:
T = 352,000d^3  i.e. the torque at one full turn is 352,000 times the wire diameter cubed. 

HOW TO SELECT A TORQUE WIRE
All you have to do is decide the maximum torque you want to measure, find it on the left hand scale of one of the graphs, run across to the graph line and then down to the wire diameter.  Look on the table and find the necessary active wire length for that diameter.

Addendum
If you really do want to save a little length on the torque meter at the expense of the simplicity of a full scale reading being at max safe torque then you can do it with the graphs, probably as quick as on a special calculator and certainly with more clarity as to what is happening.  An example should make things clear.  Assume you want the meter to handle 3 in.oz  maximum torque.  The graph will suggest 0.021 diameter wire, and the length table will give a wire length of 6.78 inches.  To use a shorter wire choose a larger diameter, say 0.024 diameter, this will take a torque of 4.85 at Full Scale Deflexion at a wire length of 7.75 inches.  Now you only want this new wire to take 3in.oz of torque which is only 62% of the 4.85 in.oz which would occur at the full 360 degree twist.  So the 3 in.oz figure will appear at 62% of 360 which is 223 degrees on the dial and the thick wire will only need to be 62% of the 7.75 inches which is 4.8 inches long.

John
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Andrew Darby
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« Reply #328 on: December 31, 2016, 01:12:53 PM »

Very well explained John.

Just jumping in here to add to your explaination with a couple of pieces of advice.  1) The torque equation has extreme sensitivity to wire diameter, due to the diameter to the power of 4th term to derive the polar moment of area.  So you must measure the actual wire diameter as accurately as you can - huge errors in measurment can occur otherwise.  Use a micrometer if you can hold of one.  2) The modulus of rigidity is sometimes called the "shear modulus" which may be helpful when googling for values...  3) All of John's equations will also work with SI units too if you are anywhere other than the states (and maybe are a bit younger  Wink Grin)

Andrew

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« Reply #329 on: December 31, 2016, 01:19:53 PM »


Just jumping in here to add to your explaination with a couple of pieces of advice.  1) The torque equation has extreme sensitivity to wire diameter, due to the diameter to the power of 4th term to derive the polar moment of area.  So you must measure the actual wire diameter as accurately as you can - huge errors in measurment can occur otherwise.  Use a micrometer if you can hold of one.

 Very good advice here as some word sold is actually undersized. I.e. 0.008" may be only 0.0075"

Regards.
Mike Kirda
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« Reply #330 on: December 31, 2016, 01:41:20 PM »

Two points:

1. However you make a meter it is always advisable to calibrate it and use a dial face based on your calibration.

2. Using the largest dial face you can stand and using a wire length that will allow winding more than one full turn can give you a meter that can be used for multiple classes. Even using this plan I had 2 meters before I went to a digital meter. LPP and F1M launch torques can be over 1 in-oz. A6 can be from .1 to .4. EZB can be less than .1.

And a final word - when flying A6 at Kent or any other site where ceiling contact is a real bad idea I've often had to measure my launch torque to 3 decimal places to get to the ceiling and not get hung.
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« Reply #331 on: December 31, 2016, 02:38:08 PM »

Mike Andrew and Bill,
Thank you very much for the additional comments. It was very remiss of me not to mention them.  I think a lot of us are engineers and are so familiar with tolerances and other oddities of life it does not always occur to us to dot the i's and cross the t's, particularly as a reply gets longer and longer. Thanks again.
John
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« Reply #332 on: December 31, 2016, 03:22:05 PM »

The digital torquemeter was invented as a zero cost device (using a $10 scale that all indoor builders already had) for calibrating the homebuilt disc/wire meters. Then it was found that the calibration device, though crudely made, could be used by itself as a meter. The concept was picked up by some real engineers and machinists, whose brains and fabrication skills far exceeded those of the inventor, and now we have the meters that are available for sale.

The original meter, slightly upgraded, is still in use by the inventor. It's pictured on page 2 of this thread, reply 27.

As an aside, have the music wire alloys never changed? Does today's .020 wire have the exact same twist resistance as the .020 wire from 50 years ago when some of these calculations were made? A lot of builders feel that the bending resistance isn't the same.

a.
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« Reply #333 on: December 31, 2016, 03:54:49 PM »

Hi all,
Thanks for all of the useful advice! Aardvark_bill kindly has sent me a torque meter that can go up to 1 oz. inch, this should work well for a-6. I think I will make some other wire meters and then make an electronic meter an see which one I like best.
Hepcat, Thanks for the table. I have never seen the table, thanks!
What torque ranges would mini stick, f1l, f1d, and penny plane use?

Thanks for all of the help!

Ross
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« Reply #334 on: December 31, 2016, 04:08:59 PM »

Hi all,
Thanks for all of the useful advice! Aardvark_bill kindly has sent me a torque meter that can go up to 1 oz. inch, this should work well for a-6. I think I will make some other wire meters and then make an electronic meter an see which one I like best.
Hepcat, Thanks for the table. I have never seen the table, thanks!
What torque ranges would mini stick, f1l, f1d, and penny plane use?

Thanks for all of the help!

Ross


F1D and F1L use similar rubber sizes and torque ranges to a max of around .5 in-oz on F1D.
Depends a lot on the loop length. F1L might be slightly less, .4 or so.

LPP can be over 1 in-oz. I've gone that high before.

Mini stick uses very thin rubber, so the max torque might be .1-.2.

Check out one of Fred Rash's rubber spreadsheets.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

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« Reply #335 on: December 31, 2016, 05:01:58 PM »

As John mentioned above, currently G for music wire (ASTM A228 specifications) is given as 11.5 Mpsi.  But this value is for the wire just after the final cold draw for size.  If the wire is cold worked any more, even by coiling it, the value for G decreases.  The dislocations caused by the cold working (other than by pure tension drawing), allow the grains to slide more easily past each other.  This lowers the shear modulus, G.  For the music wire I use, after breaking in the torque meter (by twisting back and forth to +-80% full torque - about 100 times), the value of G I measure is 10.3-10.5 Mpsi.  In further use, after about a year or so, my wire torque meters need to be redialed as the G decreases to about 10 Mpsi.  In my experience, this value stay constant (at least until the wire breaks).  This lessening of G occurs in all the music wire I use: Precision Brand, K&S, and guitar strings.

I initially dial my wire based torque meters using a G of 10.3 Mpsi.  After six months to a year, I need to recalibrate, print out a new dial face, and redial for a finally time.  I also calculate my own initial wire lengths (5.15" of 0.0.015" wire for a 1.0 oz-in meter and 5.20" of 0.016" wire for a 1.4 oz-in meter using a G of 10.3 Mpsi). 

I suggest erring on the short side for the wire length.  If redialing is hard, the torque twist coefficient can be lowered for a built wire torque meter by slightly sanding a portion of the wire to reduce the diameter (I have used a small piece of wet/dry carborundum paper stuck on a toothpick to get into the tube of the meter).  Be careful as just one swipe or two will make a noticeable change in the twist coefficient.

Jeff Hood once had a utilities website that would calculate wire lengths and produce dial face image files.  Unfortunately, that site no longer exists.  Jeff started a new website but as yet, only the wire length calculator works.  However, Jeff's calculator uses a G of 12 Mpsi.  One can still use Jeff's output by multiplying the output length by 10.3/12 (or whatever G one wants to use instead of 10.3).  Jeff's current wire length calculator is at:

http://indoor-utils.jhood.com.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/#/tmeter

LP
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Andrew Darby
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« Reply #336 on: December 31, 2016, 06:03:44 PM »

As far as I know the value of G doesn't change with cold work, I was always taught that it rather more depends on the alloy and doesn't really change to the extent you are saying.  You can alter sorts of things by working a material, hardness, tensile strength, ductility etc but the significant manipulation of the shear or Young's modulus is not possible.  The Young's modulus (stiffness) always stays in a pretty tight range for a particular alloy, for instance all aluminium alloys pretty much stay in the range of 68-70 Gpa, and steels 200-210 Gpa...  brass alloys tend to wander more due to a much larger range of the percentage of the alloying materials (copper and zinc) that re used for various grades...

However I repeat this is what I was taught, other opinions and facts welcome  Grin Grin

Andrew
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« Reply #337 on: December 31, 2016, 07:30:08 PM »

I can make a dial face for anyone that needs one. All I need are the diameter of the face and the torque at 360 degrees rotation.
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« Reply #338 on: December 31, 2016, 11:11:13 PM »

Here are some samples from a pdf converted to jpeg.
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« Reply #339 on: December 31, 2016, 11:18:10 PM »

I don't recommend making a dial face based on a calculated value for the torque at 360 degrees. I would strongly suggest measuring to get that value. That removes all the guesswork about wire torsional strength and also for any inaccuracies in building the meter.
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« Reply #340 on: January 01, 2017, 10:53:11 PM »

Here is a 3D printed digital one I am making from the files created and posted on Facebook by Dmytro Silin. I have been using torsion wire meters for ~30 years now. The first ones were ones I made, but these four which I typically use were made by Tim Goldstein some years ago. Each one has a different wire size for a different torque range. I have never calibrated these and see no real reason to have them precisely calibrated as all that matters to me is the relative torque from flight to flight using the same meter. The torque values printed on the dial are calculated on the measured wire diameter and length of the wire. Its close enough for me. But like Bill said, a printed dial based on a measured/calibrated number would be more accurate.

Don
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« Reply #341 on: January 19, 2017, 06:55:54 PM »

Here are some samples from a pdf converted to jpeg.

I guess I should point out that there's no charge for making a dial face. Probably won't matter since no one has ever asked for one.
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« Reply #342 on: January 21, 2018, 07:21:04 AM »

Her is my winder/torque meter in one.
Sorry this is for out door
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« Reply #343 on: October 11, 2018, 08:51:53 AM »

Being brand new in this hobby, and on a fixed income, I need to be creative sometimes when it comes to gathering up all the non-flying stuff required to get these models in the air. I built Paul Bradley's winding stooge and re-purposed a couple of shop tools rather than buying new ones.

But I needed a winder. I don't plan to fly big high power endurance models so I didn't need something like the $99.50 Sidewinder or, heaven forbid, the $400 F1G!!  Talk about sticker shock!! But at the same time I wasn't thrilled with spending $20-$30 for a plastic winder with nylon gears. So I started looking at winders made from hand drills.  I had one from my Dad, but unfortunately I believe it was looks when some low-life's stole a tool bag out of my truck.  Went on Amazon and started looking and eventually settled on one from China for $25. Cast frame, double pinion gears decent fit and finish.
I could have spent less but I do want it to last, and of course I could have spent a lot more, but it's gonna be a uni-task tool so I didn't need to waste money on it.

When it arrived, I checked it out, seemed to work okay. It has a slight hitch in its giddy-up at one spot on the main gear, possibly a slight deformation of the teeth in that area but not enough to be an issue. I then drilled a hole in the shaft, bent the hook out of .090" steel wire, inserted it through the hole, then applied about a dozen wraps of .030" copper wire which I then soldered to the shaft to lock the hook in place.

Tah-Dah! I now have a winder! The ratio is 4.25:1 which while not spectacular is decent. I was planning to mount a counter to it, but when I got out the counter it clicked twice and broke. Rats.
At some point I will get another and mount it but for now I think I can remember that 100 cranks will give me 425 winds.
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« Reply #344 on: October 11, 2018, 12:23:09 PM »

Dan -

I am impressed by your diligence and ingenuity.

I have a couple of comments about your winder that might prove helpful.

It is hard to tell the size of your winder, but it looks big enough to wind a 16 x 1/8-inch rubber motor like one would use in a Gollywock.  When you wind, you will need to step out and stretch the rubber motor.  So you need a D-shaped handle to securely hold the winder as the pulling force will be substantial.  See the attached picture of my Merrill winder which has this type of handle.

Also, the .090-inch hook is a little too robust.  I don't think it will fit through the hole in a medium size Crockett hook. You will need to use a Crockett hook or a similar hook on the front end of a multi-strand rubber motor in order to be able to remove the rubber motor from the winder and connect it to the prop shaft hook. I would go with a .062-inch music wire hook on your winder.  

Build a torque meter using the plan from Herb Kothe.  It will cost less than $5 in parts.  Wind to torque.

Use a blast tube.  This has been covered elsewhere, probably in my thread about building the Korda C Tractor under the Old Time Rubber topic.

BTW, I bought my used Merrill winder for $35 a few years ago.  I think it has about the same ratio as your winder. It came with a mechanical counter already installed. The counter is the little black box. I later added the cylindrical torque meter mounted on the end of my Merrill winder.  It was purchased for about $100 from Volare products. The Kothe torque meter is a separate tool that will work fine, but its use involves added steps in the winding process.
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« Reply #345 on: October 11, 2018, 01:43:41 PM »

Torque meters are the cat's meow with rubber winding.  I've been wanting to build a Kothe style meter for my smaller models, but I can only get wire in metric sizes.  All the info I've found relates to imperial.

Cal...
I plan on ordering one of George's meters for Christmas if the shipping and/or the Customs fees don't go thru the roof.  Have you given yours a wring-out and how do you like it?

Pete
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« Reply #346 on: October 11, 2018, 02:25:33 PM »

Pit -

I think the plan for the Kothe torque meter has a formula for figuring out the length of the music wire segment to use. Therefore precision in the diameter of the wire is not critical.  For indoor models, I believe a 6-inch segment of .020" music wire would work nicely.  There are many ways to calibrate a homemade torque meter.

The Volare torque meter is an example of excellent engineering and fine craftsmanship.  It is very reasonably priced.  I have used my Morrill winder equipped with a Volare torque meter regularly over the past few years and it performs very nicely.

I would prefer that the Volare torque meter have a finer resolution.  For example, 2 on the meter is about 20 inch-ounces of torque. I rarely need to wind past 30-inch ounces of torque.  I don't fly Wakefields.  The meter goes from 0 to 10.  However, there are clearly readable line markings on the indicator drum between the digits.  My recollection is that they are in tenths.
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« Reply #347 on: October 11, 2018, 03:30:22 PM »

Just what I found in my pc, a pdf from Ken Rice. The formula can be used to determine the deflection from any diameter and lenght of wire.

Calibrating a Torque Meter by Ken Rice
From: "Batsheet" via: Okie Free Flight Flyers
Most of the torque meter construction articles that I've seen call for calibrating the finished instrument by comparing it to a known-accurate torque meter, or by using a system of measured weights and moment arms. Neither of these is easy to do with any precision. Fortunately, there is a standard engineering formula for calculating the angular deflection of a solid shaft that works nicely for determining the dial marking instead. The simple formula is:
a = (C * T * L) / (D^4 * G)
The formula shows how many degrees that a shaft will twist, given the diameter and length of the shaft, and the amount of twisting force. The parameters for this formula are described below in both US and standard units (standard in parentheses):
a = angle of pointer deflection in degrees (degrees)
C = constant: 36.5 (584)
T = torque in inch-ounces (newton-millimeters)
L = length of the music wire torsional element in inches (millimeters)
D = diameter of the music wire torsional element in inches (millimeters)
G = torsional Modulus of Elasticity for music wire in lb/sq in (newton/sq mm)
Wire Size   G
less than .032 (.81)   12,000,000 (82 740)
.011-.062 (.84-1.6)   11,850,000 (81 700)
.063-.125 (1.6-3.2)   11,750,000 (81 010)
.126-.250 (3.2-6.4)   11,600,000 (79 980)


hope that helps, Pit

Urs
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« Reply #348 on: October 11, 2018, 05:37:22 PM »

Thanks guys!
Urs... now that I see that article I remember saving it (Duh!).  It didn't make the migration to the new confuser which is why I couldn't "find" it.

Pete
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« Reply #349 on: October 11, 2018, 10:10:05 PM »

Dan -

I am impressed by your diligence and ingenuity.

I have a couple of comments about your winder that might prove helpful.

It is hard to tell the size of your winder, but it looks big enough to wind a 16 x 1/8-inch rubber motor like one would use in a Gollywock.  When you wind, you will need to step out and stretch the rubber motor.  So you need a D-shaped handle to securely hold the winder as the pulling force will be substantial.  See the attached picture of my Merrill winder which has this type of handle.

Also, the .090-inch hook is a little too robust.  I don't think it will fit through the hole in a medium size Crockett hook. You will need to use a Crockett hook or a similar hook on the front end of a multi-strand rubber motor in order to be able to remove the rubber motor from the winder and connect it to the prop shaft hook. I would go with a .062-inch music wire hook on your winder.  

Build a torque meter using the plan from Herb Kothe.  It will cost less than $5 in parts.  Wind to torque.

I took your advice and made a new hook out of .060 music wire. I have heard of the Crockett hook, might have even seen a picture of one, but clueless as to how they are used!
Remember, the Beaver is likely the largest model I will fly, so I don't expect to be trying to wind any throw you over the pickup truck strength motors.  I am planning to do something to increase my grip on the winder, just not sure what yet.  The handle is plastic and appears to be somehow welded/riveted to the frame.

I've been having a lot of fun building, guess it's time to start learning about motors, torque, and that sort of thing. I won't be competing, just flying for fun. Scale is my thing, and it's pretty much non-existent around here.
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