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Author Topic: Bossy Bird  (Read 3371 times)
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BillB
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2008, 06:13:33 PM »

I like it! I'm glad I was able to inspire you, it's a load of fun isn't it?
Teach it to fly gently. I'm looking forward to the results.

Bill.
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Bill Brown UK - Will be missed by all that knew him.
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 08:14:27 AM »

Hi Modelers,

A photo of Bossy Bird Cunard's nose stab and a comparison photo between the two models.

The canard photo shows a stab bar between the canard wings to keep them in sync. Working on the control arm (just a term) to easily adjust the canard.

The comparison photo between Bossy Bird and BB Canard show the wing, cockpit, and nose differences.

The weather forecasting is for a few nice days this week; might get out for a toss or two.

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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2009, 12:08:48 PM »

Hi BillB et al,

I finally got good weather and took Bossy Bird and Bossy Bird canard out for testing/trimming. The BB flew nice and smooth on a short rubber; I made a longer motor and my sleeve caught the tail boom and broke it. Home for repairs and a huge snowstorm approaching. Tomorrow we are flying indoors and I have it repaired and ready for one more indoor session.

Bossy Bird Cunard was a failure; it kept swapping ends while trying to fly; more nose weight drove it into the ground! Then the front LG came off in the field and I lost it; the canard broke too. Back to the drawing board and repairs. That's modeling, eh?

Outofbalance
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BillB
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2009, 01:40:45 PM »

Canards are a whole different ball game! You need very minor adjustments to get a trim change.

Bill.
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Bill Brown UK - Will be missed by all that knew him.
lemuel
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A peanut a day keeps the doctor at bay..

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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2009, 06:35:48 PM »

do you have any diehedral in the canard? Sometimes adding washout to the tips of the wings helps to keep them behaving. I also found at least 6 degrees of positive incidence on the canard is they way to get them to work. You may already know these points, I just wanted to let you in..

regards
Matthew
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2009, 12:31:10 PM »

Hi Matthew and BillB,

I flew Bossy Bird indoors yesterday. It was diving so I added an 1/8 up elevator to the stab and AWAY SHE FLEW. Great- a nice gentle circles and smooth, so smooth. Going outdoors when the countryside dries out; we had a huge snow and rain - quite sloggy today.

Canard
I've made two canard models, Emma's StarShip which is flying fine after a few pile-ups and Bossy Bird Canard. Matthew, I will add incidence; think that might be the fault. First have to make substantial repairs.

I appreciate the guidance,

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Dimeflyer
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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2009, 08:28:31 PM »

Try Try again till you get it wright Guy - At least it looked good !!!!

George
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2009, 07:08:33 PM »

Hi All,

Bossy Bird flew this morning in dead calm. I flew it once last week with 1/8th" short motor. I used a drag flap to get a nice easy right hand turn. Today, I used 3/16" rubber, about 12" long. I gave it a good wind with a Sundance torque meter. Flew several rounds, each about a minute in heavy air. It sits on its tail and slowly ascends, nice! My kind of flying. Each time it flew right over my head on that circuit. No chasing!

Bill, you've got a great design; how will you make it fit the category? Picture below, I hope.

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BillB
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2009, 04:11:28 AM »

That does look nice, and I'm glad you're pleased with it.
I have been toying with the idea of a twin motor version, but I have a few other things to get out of the way first.

Bill.
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lemuel
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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2009, 09:05:10 AM »

how has the canard gone? I read back through the thread and it said that you needed to do some repairs to it before you flew it?

regards
Matthew
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« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2009, 12:03:05 PM »

Hi BillB and Lemuel,

Bill, I just got my copy of TAILSPIN, a newsletter from the eastern area of the USA. In it is a design of a single rubber motor drive with an elastic thread that drives two propellors. Paul McIlrath of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, did the design; he's worked it with two models, a Wright Flyer and a Flying Pancake; models up to 20 grams. You might think of that drive method with a two prop Bossy Bird; I'm excited already. Paul does not go on line and he is a fantastic designer; lots of rubber powered models to his credit. The drawing is small. Maybe I can enlarge it and get it digitized for email or snail mail a copy. Looks simple but effective- that has McIlrath written all over it! Maybe someone else can email this design to you.

Lemuel, I have repaired the canard Bossy Bird once and again it swapped ends and broke the canard. I am repairing it again and will try less up angle on the canard this time. I don't really know where the CG should be and this is part of the problem, I think. With my Emma's StarShip, I finally worked out the CG and them found the model to dive on launch. There was more lift in the wing than in the canard; I increased the canard area and built a new wing (old one developed a slight warp). Now, I am able to get stable flight and a slight climb- very smooth characteristics! About to try a bigger motor.

(send more ideas) Regards,

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BillB
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2009, 12:44:53 PM »

I'd like to see that idea, it sounds good.

Bill.
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2009, 04:58:20 PM »

OOB
When I saw the early pictures of the BBcanard and your mention that the cg was near the rear undercarriage I thought to my self 'This looks like trouble in store'. The distance between wing and foreplane is too short and the cg is too far back relative to the wing, where it is at present.

Can you fix wing runners along the rear of the top longerons so that the wing is moved back as far as possible. The runners need to be deeper at the rear to keep the wing incidence as small as possible. Doing this should improve the CG position relative to the wing but weight the nose if necessary to, at least, get the cg in front of the wing leading edge. You should then find that you need to increase the foreplane incidence to trim, as Matthew suggests.

John
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« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2009, 12:41:12 AM »

Hi BillB,

I'll take a pic of the drawing and send it here tomorrow.

Hi Hepcat,

Thanks for the tips. All good stuff. Got the canard repaired tonight and will install the new LG tomorrow and experiment with your tips. Thanks.

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JetPlaneFlyer
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« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2009, 07:51:05 AM »

OOB,
One other point on the canard..
The foreplane on a canard airplane has to operate at a higher lift coefficient than the main wing for the plane to be stable. This is hard to achieve if you have a flat plate foreplane and a 'lifting' (cambered) airfoil on the wing. Using a flat plate airfoil on the forplane will result in needing to have a very positive incidence angle to achieve high enough lift coefficient. This puts the forplane very close to stall even in normel level flight which will make the model hard or impossible to trim.

If you look at full size canard planes the foreplane always has a 'liftier' (i.e. more cambered) airfoil that the wing and this should be done on models too. If the wing uses a flat bottom 'lifting' airfoil then the foreplane should at least use the same airfoil, or better yet use an undercambered airfoil on the forplane.

Good luck
Steve
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« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2009, 11:14:39 AM »

I remember seeing Doug Joyce's F1C canard model about 10 years ago. He had run into the issue that Steve describes with the foreplane needing to operate at a higher lift coefficient than the main wing. His solution was clever. He "hinged" the airfoil at the leading edge, effectively increasing the flap angle of the bottom surface, while maintaining the upper surface curvature so that premature separation did not occur at glide Cl. This created an unusual airfoil, with a very thick, fat trailing edge. An interesting solution that made me think it might have other applications for low Reynolds number airfoils.

As Steve says, I think some extra camber in the foreplane is a good idea.

Tony
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« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2009, 03:49:14 PM »

Hi JPF,

Thanks for the tips. Your explanation makes sense to me and may be the reason I've had two very poor performance outings. I think one cloudy factor is that the wing is swept and I'm not sure where the CG SHOULD find neutrality, then the factors you mention come into play with even greater importance. This is my favorite part of scratch modeling, getting everything to work in unity.

The canard is flat PLATE; maybe a narrow trailing edge hanging flap to achieve testing under camber. That helped a lot on my Emma's StarShip!

Gluing the nose gear today so maybe, weather permitting, a flight tomorrow in the early AM for tests.

Thanks,

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« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2009, 04:08:37 PM »

Coaxial drive by Paul McIlrath

Hi BillB et al,

Hopefully I've attached a not to scale drawing of PM's design of a coaxial drive for small rubber models. This picture shows an arrangement for a single motor hook in the 1/8th rubber range and idlers and pulleys that give rotation. Pretty clever. The thread is elastic thread pulled pretty tight. PM says he used this on models to about 20g, 16 inch WS, light operations. The drawing shows a two prop operation on a single shaft with a tube for the other prop. If the props are outboard, loops of elastic thread lead out to two more pulleys with props attached. PM does not do online.

I saw this design the Tailspin newsletter recently.

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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2009, 04:04:02 PM »

Bossy Bird Canard

Hi Gentlemen,

I installed some refinements to this model (thanks again for the ideas); I moved the wing as far back as I could without the prop nipping the TE of the wing. I installed a box for the wing to sit on without changing the angle of incidence. I fixed the canard, and installed a new nose gear. I left the canard airfoil flat but this will change; I'm going to build a new one, unswept and with an airfoil (with under camber).

I took three models to the field this A.M. Bossy Bird Canard (BBC-ha) did NOT swap ends! It was probably too blustery but she actually made some diving glides. I reset the canard a number of times but the wind was a problem. To my north is a row of houses and the breeze was tumbling over them, a big down draft. I tried five or six flights; finally on a calm moment, I got a descent glide on low power. On that flight, I lost the nose gear again (!), and broke the canard! The weeds are about three feet high and the tiny tendrils get wrapped around the prop shaft; takes forever to make a delicate removal. So, I came home.

I'm calling it a success; thanks guys. More later with a photo or two and a new canard.

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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2009, 08:51:33 PM »

BB Canard Photos

Hi All,

Here are three photos of the wing shifted as far back as I could get it. It's gliding now, a big improvement. Now to build a new canard. Thanks for your ideas and help.

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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2009, 09:40:59 AM »

Hi Bill et al,

Flew Bossy Bird outdoors over the weekend. We had showers passing through but most went north- lucky. Otherwise it was quiet and when the clouds parted, the football field warmed and the models really did some unexpected things.

I have a small, right drag flap on my Bossy's wing. I went back to 1/8th rubber and put maybe half turns in a new motor. I tossed as the sun came back out and got a nice 1:30 flight. Near the end she was bouncing a bit. On the next flight a few more turns and I tossed in heat, a nice lazy right turn- the power came off but she stayed up- nice lazy right turns. Then maybe a thermal broke loose, she turned LEFT into a grove of trees at about two minutes- 30 feet up- skinny trees you can't climb.

My friend as a 40 foot collapsible pole and I got her down with some damage. She'll fly again soon. Thanks Bill- what a great design.

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BillB
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2009, 12:12:09 PM »

My pleasure OOB, and yours too by the sound of it!
Ain't it great when it happens like that?

Bill.
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« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2009, 10:46:59 PM »

With the Canadian winter approaching (very fast),I am wandering if I could get a copy of your Bossy Bird plan,because we are going to have 6 months of building time.

Thanks

Jasa
sarangoj@hotmail.com

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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2009, 12:05:02 AM »

What do you mean six months? Canada has 4 seasons:  Almost winter, winter, still winter and road repair.
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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2009, 10:22:00 PM »

The plan has arrived,and today the temp.went up to 24 C;tomorrow I will check the plans and I will began to work.

jasa
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