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Author Topic: Show us your P-30's  (Read 55327 times)
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Yak 52
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« Reply #700 on: July 29, 2013, 05:28:13 AM »

Ah Tracfoil - should have looked there first  Embarrassed
Excellent, thanks Tapio.
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #701 on: July 30, 2013, 03:53:30 AM »

Actually looking at my files and drawings, the 'foil seems to be MID-109; I'll look for the coordinates and ask mr. Midic if I can post them here....

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« Reply #702 on: July 30, 2013, 07:48:29 AM »

attached is my P30...benedek 6356b3 airfoil
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craig h
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« Reply #703 on: July 30, 2013, 08:59:56 AM »

 Nice build Isismk2..hope we get to see some flights of it or a report how it flew..

Thank you for sharing..I also use the benedek airfoils..
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #704 on: August 06, 2013, 03:48:21 PM »

Finished the new LDA model, and made first test flight on Saturday. Best climbs were 56 meters and sinking speed 56cm/s, but the climb was fast (only 35 seconds), so the model may still be somewhat under-elevated, and I will also need to try some turbulator on top of the airfoil. For reference, my conventional model climbs 50 meters, and the very best climbs have been 55 meters, taking up to 50 seconds (on 6 strands of 3mm/ 1/8" rubber).
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OZPAF
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« Reply #705 on: August 06, 2013, 07:13:25 PM »

Very intersting Tapio.
How does the sinking speed of this LDA version compare with the other version of your P30?
John
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #706 on: August 07, 2013, 12:52:59 AM »

On this first outing it was sinking slightly faster, at 56 cm/s, as the old ones have been typically 46 to 50 cm/s. But if it was under-elevated (which I suspect as it did not make a single stall, while a friend flew his conventional model trimmed for calm and was stalling occasionally) it might be about the same. My previous attempts to design a wing for minimum sink have failed; I think the freewheeling prop equals out all designs, therefore I'd expect to get the same sinking speed also from this model.

The climb time was also short, 35 secs compared to 45 of a conventional model (on 6 strands). This also suggest under-elevation, and adding decalage might produce also more altitude.
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #707 on: August 08, 2013, 04:55:42 PM »

I had another session with the new model, and it turned out that the first one was indeed quite under-elevated. I had to add decalage many times until I eventually got the model to stall, then backed off a little. A log of the final flight is attached, had to DT at 90 secs due to a small field (but calm, around sunset, so not much thermal activity). Interestingly, the sinking speed was not that much affected, got to 52cm/s now, still a bit faster than with conventional model (but I need to fly the two back to back to eliminate the effect of weather). However, compared to the previous session I now got 10 meters more height, going to 66 meters at best.

From the previous session I had added a tape-zig-zag -turbulator to the wing (at 50 to 60% chord), but I'm not sure of that made much difference, or if it was just the added decalage that affected.

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« Reply #708 on: August 08, 2013, 07:56:31 PM »

Thanks very interesting Tapio. i'm looking forard to a comaoprison with the other model in the same conditions and the performance without turbulators would be interesting.
John
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #709 on: August 09, 2013, 02:10:07 AM »

A couple more pictures:
-Wing has zigzag-turbulator of thin tape
-In the pylon there is room for timer, battery, servo, tracker and the chinese altitude logger
-3 levers for VIT, AR and DT
-VIT have of carbon sheet (home-laminated) with nylon adjustment screws
-AR is adjusted between nylon bolt and nut (bottom of the rudder rests against the bolt head or nut)
-Finally a comparison between my old conventional model and the new one (different years, sites etc.) Looks like the new model initially climbs some 7 meters / 20 feet higher in burst, and then gains another 3 meters / 10 feet during the rest of the climb.

I'll try to do head-to-head with the old model the next time the air is calm enough (would like to see the difference in sinking speed, if there is any). However, tests without the turbulator will have to wait until I build another wing with that airfoil, I do not think that the tape comes easily off the mylar.... and it seems to work ok, I do not think that it harms the glide any, and climb seems ok also.
 
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Re: Show us your P-30's
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Hepcat
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« Reply #710 on: August 09, 2013, 12:35:14 PM »

Tapio,

I am not a P30 fan because I refuse to build aeroplanes to rules that say I must buy the propeller!  However I cannot resist saying how much I like your latest one – a very attractive machine.

Whilst writing I would also like to say a little more.  You give a lot of thought to aeromodelling matters, rubber testing, model design, VP propellers and much more such that if I see the name Tapio Linkosalo at the top of a contribution I know it will be worth a read because you openly give to the rest of us the results of all the hard work that you obviously put in.

Tapio, a big ‘Thank You’
John
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« Reply #711 on: August 09, 2013, 07:46:46 PM »

Thanks again Tapio for all that info - I also agree with John - your posts are always worth reading.
Its a very interesting way to go with a P30 and it seems to have a good still air performance.
Your timer/servo system looks neat.
Happy flying
John
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Tapio Linkosalo
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« Reply #712 on: August 13, 2013, 03:32:40 AM »

Actually looking at my files and drawings, the 'foil seems to be MID-109; I'll look for the coordinates and ask mr. Midic if I can post them here....

One more try. The airfoil is Mid-309, and with permission from mr. Slobodan Midic himself, here are the coordinates. The airfoil is less-cambered that those used in F1A, but this seems ok in P-30. The back of the airfoil is somewhat thickened (on top) so that it accommodates the 0.5mm thick trailing edge.


Quote
MID 309
     1.000000   0.00000
     0.993509    0.001112
     0.980064    0.003343
     0.964374    0.005795
     0.948224    0.008153
     0.931962    0.010379
     0.915665    0.012480
     0.899354    0.014481
     0.883033    0.016401
     0.866707    0.018265
     0.850382    0.020093
     0.834059    0.021907
     0.817742    0.023718
     0.801429    0.025535
     0.785131    0.027369
     0.768848    0.029228
     0.752571    0.031127
     0.736308    0.033033
     0.720049    0.034906
     0.703794    0.036748
     0.687554    0.038552
     0.671317    0.040314
     0.655084    0.042033
     0.638860    0.043704
     0.622633    0.045326
     0.606413    0.046898
     0.590203    0.048414
     0.573993    0.049870
     0.557787    0.051266
     0.541586    0.052597
     0.525380    0.053864
     0.509179    0.055065
     0.492987    0.056196
     0.476795    0.057253
     0.460613    0.058236
     0.444438    0.059137
     0.428264    0.059956
     0.412100    0.060690
     0.395946    0.061333
     0.379800    0.061882
     0.363672    0.062333
     0.347558    0.062676
     0.331460    0.062909
     0.315385    0.063024
     0.299328    0.063014
     0.283303    0.062874
     0.267309    0.062589
     0.251343    0.062153
     0.235429    0.061556
     0.219558    0.060781
     0.203748    0.059819
     0.188002    0.058645
     0.172325    0.057254
     0.156781    0.055620
     0.141371    0.053707
     0.126143    0.051493
     0.111115    0.048933
     0.096316    0.045989
     0.081761    0.042620
     0.067548    0.038816
     0.053882    0.034564
     0.040991    0.029841
     0.029350    0.024785
     0.019792    0.019814
     0.012806    0.015437
     0.008071    0.011899
     0.004894    0.008980
     0.002735    0.006459
     0.001282    0.004229
     0.000390    0.002213
     0.000016    0.000381
     0.000171   -0.001348
     0.000995   -0.002972
     0.002553   -0.004356
     0.004811   -0.005520
     0.007895   -0.006626
     0.012209   -0.007765
     0.018535   -0.008937
     0.027898   -0.010111
     0.040436   -0.011134
     0.054842   -0.011868
     0.070019   -0.012297
     0.085585   -0.012492
     0.101330   -0.012501
     0.117185   -0.012353
     0.133123   -0.012064
     0.149177   -0.011658
     0.165361   -0.011183
     0.181589   -0.010670
     0.197825   -0.010115
     0.214077   -0.009524
     0.230337   -0.008898
     0.246610   -0.008238
     0.262896   -0.007549
     0.279193   -0.006833
     0.295513   -0.006096
     0.311846   -0.005345
     0.328192   -0.004582
     0.344562   -0.003813
     0.360948   -0.003048
     0.377341   -0.002290
     0.393730   -0.001545
     0.410111   -0.000816
     0.426484   -0.000107
     0.442848    0.000581
     0.459207    0.001243
     0.475561    0.001880
     0.491907    0.002488
     0.508250    0.003066
     0.524588    0.003612
     0.540920    0.004124
     0.557250    0.004601
     0.573575    0.005041
     0.589895    0.005444
     0.606213    0.005806
     0.622527    0.006128
     0.638837    0.006408
     0.655144    0.006645
     0.671449    0.006837
     0.687750    0.006983
     0.704049    0.007083
     0.720345    0.007136
     0.736638    0.007141
     0.752928    0.007097
     0.769217    0.007009
     0.785503    0.006878
     0.801787    0.006700
     0.818069    0.006476
     0.834349    0.006201
     0.850627    0.005878
     0.866903    0.005501
     0.883177    0.005069
     0.899448    0.004579
     0.915715    0.004030
     0.931975    0.003415
     0.948218    0.002730
     0.964386    0.001977
     0.980072    0.001168
     0.993474    0.000408
     1.000000    0.00000
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Yak 52
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« Reply #713 on: August 13, 2013, 04:09:01 AM »

Excellent, thanks Tapio. And Mr Midic...
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« Reply #714 on: August 13, 2013, 04:15:40 PM »

I need a little help here with the coordinates.  I see only two columns of numbers which denote the upper and lower surfaces of the airfoil.  Where are the points along the chord that these two sets of numbers refer to?  Or is this one of those things that "everyone" knows. Wink
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« Reply #715 on: August 13, 2013, 04:42:52 PM »

This is the format that you can use in Xfoil/XFLR5/Profili as a '.dat' file.

The numbers in the left column are chordwise decimals counting down from the upper surface trailing edge (1.00000) to the LE (0.00000) and then along the lower surface back to the TE again. The numbers in the right column are the airfoil thicknesses - positive numbers are above the mean chord line and negative numbers below it.

There is a visual explanation here:
http://tracfoil.com/tracfoil/en/airfoilsE.html
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« Reply #716 on: August 18, 2013, 03:37:50 PM »

Just finished two new Saturnos, a V3 and a V4. Traditional stick & tissue, Gizmo Geezer front end and viscous timer.

Saturno V3, 37 g, Esaki paper less fuse that is Litex:
http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-f-VZ5G2FMRc/UhEZH6wYvuI/AAAAAAAAA4U/XHYwOpXwHck/w950-h577-no/satv3_11.jpg

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QenyDhayBnw/UhEZF-PN6ZI/AAAAAAAAA4M/2kykWnjmy38/w917-h551-no/satv3_12.jpg

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S4AEHE_q59o/UhEZJGNdRiI/AAAAAAAAA4c/yZq0SPntuDg/w1043-h402-no/satv3_13.jpg
Show us your P-30's
Show us your P-30's
Show us your P-30's
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« Reply #717 on: August 18, 2013, 03:40:06 PM »

Saturno V4, all Esaki paper, 35 g less rubber:

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aw6IYD8u9DI/UhEZ4aG6lUI/AAAAAAAAA5w/xkaZvN3fFp8/w1003-h577-no/satv4_22.jpg

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZDU3zO6aAeY/UhEZ3Mc7JUI/AAAAAAAAA5o/KRZtvqusK1g/w868-h577-no/satv4_21.jpg

http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LMf6CZQqAN0/UhEZzcTQOaI/AAAAAAAAA5g/oCjj7hfG0Co/w1044-h407-no/satv4_23.jpg
Show us your P-30's
Show us your P-30's
Show us your P-30's
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« Reply #718 on: August 18, 2013, 03:49:17 PM »

Nice pair, Beto.     Hope to have mine back in the air this weekend to try out the 3/32" motor you recommended.
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« Reply #719 on: August 31, 2013, 03:53:34 AM »

Another trim session in calm summer evening. I first reduced decalage slightly (1/2 turn of M2 bolt = 0.2mm unter tailplane) and the model veered strongly to left. Interesting coupling of pitch and roll! Sorted that out with some added right thrust, changed a fresh motor would to max torque, and made a new record to 69 meters. Another flight with same settings was only 62 meters, on same motor. But the difference was not just motor fatique, as there was considerable difference also in sinking speed. The first was sinking 36cm/s, and the latter 63cm/s. I think there was some boyancy on the first flight, as I feel that it would not be possible to make a P-30 sink less than 45 cm/s without some lift present. Anyway, 69 meters is my best so far, and now the model trim is quite as I want to to be, rudder is slightly offset to left for climb, compensated by right thrust, and this produces vertical initial climb that veers slightly to the right as speed declines; then a tight spiral safely upwards.
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« Reply #720 on: August 31, 2013, 04:03:02 AM »

Tapio,
you mentioned that the altimeter you used is the one from HK.  Is that the Eagle Tree used in the "stand-alone" configuration?  Would the extra drag/weight (tho minimal) have any effect on the flight, or was the unit mounted in the pylon?

Pete
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« Reply #721 on: August 31, 2013, 05:50:45 AM »

No! Not the huge Eagle Tree logger, but the HobbyKing copy/licence version of the Flight Dream Altimeter, http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__22630__Hobbyking_Altimeter.html . The flying part weights 1.3 grams and indeed fits in the pylon. It taps power from the timer battery, so no extra battery is needed. In my previous/conventional model I have taped the logger on top of the fuselage, behind the pylon, and I think there the logger did not affect performance at all either. Actually in the message #709 there is a picture inside the pylon. Towards the left end is battery on top of radio beacon, and quite in the middle of the pylon the logger.
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« Reply #722 on: August 31, 2013, 04:52:25 PM »

The Eagle Tree altimeter is only 4 grams, including the readout.  It can be used as a stand-alone unit OR in conjunction with the v4 logger.  Same resolution as the HK one but with the readout and without the temp and time graphing.  Costs only a few dollars more but less than the list direct from E-T.

It is also listed on HK (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7837__Altitude_MicroSensor_standalone_or_e_logger_V4.html).  The negative of the H-K for me is the requirement to download to a confuser.
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« Reply #723 on: August 31, 2013, 05:03:10 PM »

Fly Dream make a Bluetooth adapter for the HK altimeter that allows your to download the data to an Android phone or tablet device. That's what I plan to try next myself. Don't feel like lugging a laptop or netbook to the field either Pete!

http://www.fd-rc.com/Showcpzs.asp?id=917

See the attached photos for the arrangement of the two devices and the plotting on an Android phone.

Tmat
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« Reply #724 on: August 31, 2013, 05:17:46 PM »

For the contest geeks, the temp/time graphing is a good thing to have, and the gizmo IS physically smaller than the Eagle T.  The extra cost of the interface (GREAT addition) might be a big minus point.  Is it also in the HK lineup?
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