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Author Topic: using a KK Phantom as a trainer  (Read 1322 times)
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Hovis
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« on: September 20, 2011, 11:44:10 AM »

I am building a Keil Kraft Phantom and intend to use it as a trainer for my kids.

For the engine, it's got to be either a 1cc (06) PAW or a 1.5cc (09) PAW diesel - which one is best for the Phantom as a trainer?
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TimWescott
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 12:16:01 PM »

Since I live in the US I'd put a Cox Babe-Bee in it, or a Cox "product" engine with the single-bypass Babe-Bee cylinder.

I'm not sure how a PAW compares to a Cox, but I rather suspect that your PAW 1cc will be too much engine for it as a trainer if you adjust it for full performance.  Put the smaller engine on, and do whatever diesel magic you guys do to get reduced power out of it.  It should be fine.
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PeeTee
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 12:46:38 PM »

 For what it's worth, I remember  (it was a long time ago) my chum and I putting an ED Bee into a Phantom Mite, which is of course smaller than the Phantom, and it wasn't overpowered by a long chalk. Thus I'd be inclined to used the PAW 1.49 as you can always back off the compression for reduced power on the training flights. The 1.49 will also be good for the next stages of training in more capable models - not that the Phantom isn't capable, just look at the speeds the Phantom team racers achieve.

The Peterborough and Barton club websites may have more useful info - 'fraid I don't have a
 www link for Barton, so Google. Here is the P'boro link http://www.peterboroughmfc.org/

Have fun

Peter
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perttime
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 01:08:55 PM »

Barton website:
http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/portal.php

I'm just a lurker on their site ... for asking questions on their forums, you'd have to register.
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DaddyO
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 01:34:16 PM »

Hi Hovis

Nice model, the Phantom. I tried to learn to fly with one, but it didn't last long before repairs were needed. :'(
(I actually 'learned' to fly with an over-propped Warlord, before going back to the Phantom and eventually tried my hand at `Phantom Racing' and even had a float plane version that my Dad built)

Anyway, in answer to the original question I'd use a 1.5cc with a fine pitch prop.  Smiley
The bigger engine means you can use longer lines and the fine pitch prop should help keep the speed down (Try something like a yellow Kavan which will last longer than a stiffer prop such as the current scimitar shaped jobs)

Have fun
Paul

ps
Obvious point, but don't make the tank too big Roll Eyes
pps
make sure the engine is nicely run in and starts easily whichever you choose - nothing worse than flicking a hot, tight engine when you really want to be flying Tongue
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applehoney
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 02:11:32 PM »

The Phantom  .. and I'm thinking of the original open cockpit version, not the later revamped one -   was designed for the Mills 1.3cc so a 1cc PAW would fly it very well, and am sure would be fine for the Mk2 model.    As DaddyO says it would move very well with the 1.5cc and longer lines would be an additional benefit 
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Hovis
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 01:32:49 PM »

Thanks guys.  I'll build it for the PAW 1.5cc. 
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Daithi
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 10:25:57 AM »

I've a funny feeling the Phantom was a 2.5cc ((0.15 cu in) - the Phantom MITE (smaller version) was the 1 cc (or Mills 1.3)

I'd need to dig through my pdf files of old Aeromodellers to check tho
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DaddyO
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 11:32:57 AM »

Some speed hounds have fitted bigger engines so perhaps that's where the idea comes from, but a PAW 1.5 gives more power than the old Mills 1.3 that might have been used back in the day so I wouldn't go any bigger. (Actually having said that I did fit a .15 with a tuned pipe in one to try in Phantom speed) Grin

Paul
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 12:22:17 PM by DaddyO » Logged

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perttime
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 12:32:10 PM »

A have a few Phantom plans on my PC.

Two are for 21" span: one says "designed especially for the Mills 1.3cc diesel", the other: "trainer for motors 1-1.5cc".
16" Phantom Mite plan says "trainer for .5-.8 cc motors"

One of the 21" plans also shows mods for a 3.25cc sparky engine, including a 24" wing.
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TimWescott
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 12:42:53 PM »

I've a funny feeling the Phantom was a 2.5cc ((0.15 cu in) - the Phantom MITE (smaller version) was the 1 cc (or Mills 1.3)
I based my comment on the Phantom Mite, so I'm just wrong.

How big is the Phantom?
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perttime
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »

I just posted my Phantom and Phantom Mite plans in the plans gallery. Should appear there soon.

The Phantom is 21" span.
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Hovis
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 01:28:48 PM »

I'm using the CL2 version of the plans although I think I prefer the total canopy and position of it in the first version. I might see if I can find a plastic bottle that I can cut up for one.

Progress so far is pictured. This set up for a 1.5c PAW. The tailplane is covered with tissue/dope because, after I sanded to profile, it felt so flimsy I thought I might break it! I still need to cut the elevator of course.

I'll need to make a slim tank of some kind to fit behind the engine.  Not exactly what shape/size to use, other than something quite small.

The hardest bit will be the cowling and working out some way of attaching it so it can easily be removed...
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TimWescott
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 01:43:50 PM »

How does the 1cc PAW compare to a Cox reed-valve 049?  I would think that if you didn't build it like a brick, a reasonably powerful glow 049 would pull even a 21" model with reasonable authority.

But, a 1.5cc should definitely do it.

I'm just discovering balloon tanks for glow fuel (use a big party balloon, not inflated but flaccid, to store fuel without any hassle with venting).  It seems to work well.  I don't know how the balloons would stand up to diesel fuel, though.
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PeeTee
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 03:27:57 PM »

From what I've seen on FF duration models a PAW 049 is comparable to a Cox reed valve motor and possibly a Medallion, not a TeeDee though. On that basis I reckon that a PAW 1cc would be more powerful, and it will turn a bigger prop.

As for balloons, diesel fuel does nasty things to some types of rubber, and I'd be inclined to stick with a simple tinplate tank.

The model is coming along nicely though, and I look forward to reading about the rest of the build.

Peter
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Daithi
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 04:35:47 PM »

for comparison - a .049 is about 0.8 cc, a .09 is 1.5 and a .15 is 2.5
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applehoney
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 04:59:52 PM »

Quote
I think I prefer the total canopy and position of it in the first version.

The first version of the Phantom didn't have a canopy but an open cockpit with windscreen. As did the Phantom Mite.
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Hovis
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2011, 12:22:38 PM »

Sheeted the fuselage.  Probably not as easy as carving down a block of wood!

Still need to create a fuel tank for it.  Not sure what shape or how high it should be.

Do I need to get a silencer/mufler for this engine?  It looks like if I add a cowling around it (even if it's still quite low around the exhaust ports), all the gunk will go inside it the model.

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Daithi
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2011, 05:01:23 PM »

A wedge tank is best really. Note the two pipes (Filler and vent). They extend the full depth of the tank with an angled cut (so they don't block) or you can set them a couple of mm up from thje ,etal plate.

The fuel line also runs to the back of the tank.

Make it from sheet brass or tinplate

Any triangular section layout will do really as centrifugal force will push the fuel to the outside (the apex of the triangle)
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Daithi
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2011, 05:02:56 PM »

Whoops - I forgot to mention - I normally had one pipe to the top and the other to the bottom (that guy has both to the top)

The reason is if you fly inverted, the go-juice doesn't all run out Cheesy
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