Logo
Builders' Plan Gallery  |  Hip Pocket Web Site  |  Contact Forum Admin  |  Contact Global Moderator
June 19, 2019, 08:54:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
 
Home Help Search Login Register
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Fantastik P-30 Build  (Read 6125 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« on: May 19, 2013, 11:27:20 PM »

Surprisingly enough I'm working on striking another one off my 2013 build list! It's not often that things go according to plans...

I've been wanting to build a couple P-30 class planes to enter my club's competitions. This one will be my first P-30. I also have a Square Eagle kit, that will probably be second one.

Fantastik P-30 is an all built-up model designed by Ismail Sarioglu and kitted by Atalar Models in Turkey. Once the kit contents went through Aurora's CAT scan, I was ready to start the build Grin.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Fantastik P-30 Build
Fantastik P-30 Build
Fantastik P-30 Build
Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
jswain
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 146



Ignore
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2013, 11:56:15 PM »

This is great, i mean Fantastic Roll Eyes

It wont take too long to build compared to larger models and all the bits+pieces look to be already at hand.

I saw this model in Mike Woodhouses web site and was interested with this Atalar model kit and the Sweet P30 kits but a bit gunshy to commit to overseas purchase- the great unknown.

let us know how its going or post questions, best wishes!

js
Logged
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2013, 12:23:12 AM »

Thanks for the best wishes JS  Smiley.

The model has quite a few features that are firsts for me. The asymmetrical wing (L/R wingspans), the asymmetrical fin, the auto-rudder mechanism are all new to me...

The wood selection is good with a 7lb/cu.ft average.

The first piece I built was the cute angle gauge which also doubles as a dihedral gauge. I had three of the four wing panels built in a couple hours thanks to good fitting laser cut parts. The stripwood too, is laser cut.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
hastf1b
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 11
Offline Offline

Germany Germany

Posts: 380


Winding my Tilka during the german chamionship `87



Ignore
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2013, 03:22:43 AM »

Hi, atesus. A small note. The pins do not sting through the wood. The illustration shows how to avoid this.
 1. Building board
 2. Leading-or Trealing edge
 3. A piece of Balsastrip
 4. Pins

Heinz
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged

F1B is o.k.
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2013, 08:46:13 AM »

Heinz, thank you for the tip and drawings. I've been pinning only through wider stripwood (like the TE) and have not had any problems with it so far but you're right, better play safe and stop the practice altogether Embarrassed...

As for the pins with the yellow handles, those are 000 steel bug pins with very sharp tips. They don't seem to crush and damage the fibers of the wood like ordinary pins. I find them safe to use particularly for keeping glue joints in place while they dry but still avoid using them on thin stripwood.

--Ates
Logged
Pit
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 127
Offline Offline

Germany Germany

Posts: 5,507


aka staubkorb


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2013, 09:01:47 AM »

I've been see-sawing for some time about getting a few of the ATALAR kits.  A couple of mails to the company showed a willingness to ship, but the cost was quite high - even to Germany.  It's good to hear that Mike W. has taken the bit in the teeth, as the ATALAR stuff appears to be top notch.

Ates, did you get yours thru Mike, or direct?

Heinz:  the "Matty-pins" (named after the guy - lemuel, a member here who "introduced" them - are made with 0.009" or thinner music wire.  They really don't damage the wood, since they are so thin and I've used them too.
Logged

A Dedicated Convert to:
WWWoFF (Wonderfull Wacky World of Free Flight)

Comparing Spammers to a pile of organic waste is an insult to the organic waste!
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2013, 09:14:55 AM »

Hi Pit, the content and the quality of the kit is very good indeed. I got mine direct, actually as direct as it can be (from the workshop of Atalar Model in Istanbul Cheesy).
Logged
Dave Andreski
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 82
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3,052




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 09:47:12 AM »

atesus,
Looks like your P-30 will be very strong structure wise.
Was it designed for the 40g rule or otherwise?
Thanks,
Dave
Logged

Aspire to inspire before you expire.
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2013, 10:00:51 AM »

Hi Dave, that's right, after adding the diagonal members the wing panels stiffened up quite a bit.

The model is designed for the 40g rule. The target weight show on the plan is 43g (15g fuse + rudder, 15g wing, 4g stab, 9g nose block and prop). I may end up a bit heavier as I'm planning to use Coverlite to cover the model instead of the included Esaki tissue.

--Ates
Logged
Dave Andreski
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 82
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3,052




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2013, 10:08:44 AM »

Hi Dave, that's right, after adding the diagonal members the wing panels stiffened up quite a bit.

The model is designed for the 40g rule. The target weight show on the plan is 43g (15g fuse + rudder, 15g wing, 4g stab, 9g nose block and prop). I may end up a bit heavier as I'm planning to use Coverlite to cover the model instead of the included Esaki tissue.

--Ates

Thanks Ates.
That's a great looking, very complete kit.
Dave
Logged

Aspire to inspire before you expire.
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 01:21:15 AM »

I hit somewhat of a snag in the wing construction and had do some rework. How many times can I make the same mistake and glue the end ribs at an incorrect angle Angry? I guess it's true when they say "experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"  Grin. In any event the wing is all done now, with the exception of center sheeting. The plans don't call for sheeting but only reinforce the TE with a piece of 1/32" ply and protect it against the rubberbands holding down the wing.

The first picture shows the four wing panels sanded and ready to join. The difference in the spans of the center panels is also visible.

The finished wing weighs 10g. After covering with Coverlite I am expecting to be right at the target weight shown on the plans - 15g. I don't have any other P-30 reference point as this is the first P-30 class model I'm building but the wing feels fairly stiff for its weight compared to other wings I have built.

I should speed up if I am to fly this on June 1st!
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
mkirda
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 15
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 673

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 08:31:45 AM »

I have a Majestyk wing that has a lot less structure that is coming in at 6 grams uncovered.
Just as a comparison.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
Logged

Rewinged
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 19
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 652



Ignore
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 09:38:34 PM »

For another comparison point, my finished wing of 132 square inches is at 15.5 grams, covered with tissue over mylar.  This is probably about 2 grams heavier than I would like.  My last model of the same design had a RTF weight <42g.  I'm afraid this one might be a bit heavier.  My fuse should end up lighter than the last one, so we'll see.

6g uncovered seems crazy light--darn indoor builders!  You may have to ballast it up...

--Bill
Logged

Good air don't care!
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 03:16:53 AM »

Mike, Bill, thank you for the pointers. 6g is very light indeed...

Today, in what would qualify as a marathon building session for me, I built the fuse sides, the stab, and the fin.

I built a simple jig for the fuselage sides with steel rulers and a straight piece of aluminum stick I had. I built the left side first, then marked the pin locations and removed the finished side off the building board. Then I put the longerons for the right side in place and pinned them down at the same locations and built the second side. I'm happy with the resultant matching of the fuse sides. I started putting the two fuse sides together but it got late very quickly and decided to call it a day.

Still holding out hope for Saturday...

--Ates
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 11:25:24 PM »

This must be the fastest build I've ever done. It seems all my builds take at least a couple months, regardless of the complexity of the model. All construction complete, just a few fiddly bits are left to do. Most of those are to be done after covering.

I pleasantly discovered that if I manage to not waste any tissue, I can cover the complete model with one sheet of Coverlite - which is all I have anyway. Unfortunately I only have blue, it won't be ideal for visibility but, oh well...

I have to start thinking about the timer setup. I've never used a viscous timer. I got the unit shown in the picture. I'll experiment tonight to get a feel for the pull needed to reliably achieve timings in 1 to 3 minutes range.

If I can finish covering tonight, maybe -just maybe- I can finish up the fiddly bits tomorrow and go flying on Saturday. Fingers crossed.
 
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
Pit
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 127
Offline Offline

Germany Germany

Posts: 5,507


aka staubkorb


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2013, 07:43:42 AM »

NICE!  Be aware that those timers are affected by variations in the ambient temperature (they "run" faster as the temp goes up).  When you do the initial test runs at home, make a note of the temp and mark the times on the model.  BEFORE flying (at the field), do another test time and adjust to suit.  Needs to be done  more often as the temp goes up (or down) during the day.

Pete
Logged

A Dedicated Convert to:
WWWoFF (Wonderfull Wacky World of Free Flight)

Comparing Spammers to a pile of organic waste is an insult to the organic waste!
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2013, 03:14:10 PM »

Thanks for the heads up Pete. Saturday is supposed to go from 61F early in the morning to 97F in the afternoon (16C to 36C!). I will remember to check the timings every hour or so...
Logged
PeeTee
Titanium Member
*******

Kudos: 48
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 2,235



Ignore
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2013, 03:39:51 PM »

Ates

Nicely built model - I trust it's now covered!

Pete makes a good point, but rather than check every hour or so, I would recommend you check just before you make each flight - check the timer, wind and then fly. That way you know there has been no significant change.

Good luck in the comp.

Cheers

peter
Logged
OZPAF
Palladium Member
********

Kudos: 177
Offline Offline

Australia Australia

Posts: 4,887



Ignore
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2013, 07:28:40 PM »

That was fast Atesus - nicely done. Good luck in your comp. Be selective with thetherrmals Grin - only good enough for the time. This will OOS easily.

John
Logged
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2013, 04:27:51 AM »

Within the last couple days I used all my hobby time towards finishing up the model and couldn't update the thread. I was done around 2AM on Saturday Cool. The Coverlite tissue turned out to add more weight than what I had accounted for, the model came in at 50g (except rubber). The timer gave me a lot of trouble to set up but I finally got it working somewhat reliably with 1.5-2 min max capability. At Waegell we fly 90 sec maxes so it's OK.

A couple hours of sleep and I was off to the Waegell field in Rancho Cordova. It was predicted to be a very hot day and sure it was from the get go. I had 1 hour to setup and to work on trimming the new model before the P-30 mass launch. Things looked pretty good from the beginning so trimming consisted of finding the right position for the wing saddle and fiddle with the auto-rudder which gave me some inconsistent results early on so I disabled it for the rest of the day. The thrustline and the incidence angles are fixed in the design, and they looked spot-on.

I missed the mass launch due to timer problems. In the competition rounds I got 3 maxes and was placed 1st. In all three instances the model DT'ed. I'm a happy man Grin.

On a side note, the smaller red model (Comet Cloudbuster) also got the first place in the small rubber category after a hard fought competition between me and myself Grin.

Here are a few pictures from the day and a video of a trim flight. Enjoy!

http://youtu.be/W49b0gQqwgE

--Ates
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2013, 05:35:55 PM »

Oops, I posted the same picture twice in the previous post Embarrassed.

I used a button type viscous timer in the model - the only one I had on hand was a bare button unit with no spool, no spring etc. I found a nice spring in a box of small FF accessories which I had purchased at a swap meet last year. I made the spool out of 5/32" OD aluminum tube (1/8" ID). The spring I had was too weak for this spool so I upped the spool diameter using a piece of 3/16 OD aluminum tube which I inserted on top of the 5/32" piece. I cut a small retainer piece out of 1/32" ply and CA'ed it on the top. Things looked very promising on the test setup with one turn of the shaft giving about a minute, fairly constant within the most useful range of 1 min to 3 min.

When I went onto installing the setup on the model however, things got complicated. I read somewhere that I would definitely need a force multiplier to hold the stab down as the spring's pull by itself could not possibly overcome the elastics pulling the stab up. What do you know! The same box of FF bits'n pieces contained one of those force multiplier arms too Cheesy. I added two steel wire turnarounds to the setup to accommodate the force multiplier and quickly found out that the once smooth working timer would not move at all anymore Angry. It needed way more pull to operate due to the friction on the turnarounds. I tried lubricating the turnarounds with dry teflon lubricant which didn't seem to help. After much experimenting I discovered that if I pulled the spring really far (the photo shows the spring in this unhappy state) I got the timer to operate in the narrow range of 90sec-120sec. Since we were going to fly 90 sec maxes, I thought that would be OK to get me through the day.

During the day as the temperature increased to 100Fs (~38C) the longest duration I could get out of the timer got dangerously close to the 90sec max time. I resorted to cooling down the timer with an ice cube prior to my last flights Cheesy and got done with my official flights with no unpleasant surprises.

At the field, a club member showed me a trick which would have probably negated my need for a force multiplier which was the major source for my troubles. He installed a wooden peg midway through the stab line and after pulling the stab down in flight position, he looped the stab line around the peg to increase the friction on the rear section of the line, then hooked the line on the timer arm. This way the stab can be kept in place by a lower pulling force on the timer side. After having gotten a better feel as to the kind of forces needed to make the operate the system, I believe I should be able to use a direct setup (stab line directly routed to the timer arm) without turnarounds or force multiplier arm - possibly with a longer and slightly stronger spring. I'll also add the peg on the stab line for added safety.
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Logged
jswain
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 146



Ignore
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2013, 01:31:07 AM »

I am glad all went well.

regarding the timer, i did this for two p30's and latest tlg -

I took an alan cohn  hobbyspecialites.com spring, his medium size viscous timer, ground the plastic teeth *only* off the timer with Dremel tool(left with bare round [email protected] 3/16 OD), inserted a 1/4" OD x 1/4 long aluminum sleeve over the round hub - trimming as needed to get snug fit but not so loose as to touch backplate, drilled a micro-hole through plastic hub and aluminum sleeve for timer loop wire (aka modeling pin), secured with dab of 5 min epoxy.

The spring has to be stretched 3.5" to make the 2 minute timer run and get 100% successful release. Aluminum hub OD provides extra leverage on viscous timer hub so about 1/2 turn = full 2 minutes. The arm noticably moves during the run making me confident of good active timer run start before lauching (seeing is believing...). Finally aluminum hub keeps timer string loop away from timer backplate housing to prevent binding and keep loop from rolling over the outside of hub thus reducing spring tension. I gave up on rubber band type tensioners due to inconsistant time or losing all tension preventing the loop release :'(

Total cost much less than Ikara timer or others i have seen for sale *and* 100% solid performance

best wishes and good time, john s

ps - make sure the timer arm end is smooth and snag free
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
Re: Fantastik P-30 Build
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 01:59:54 AM by jswain » Logged
jswain
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 146



Ignore
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 01:55:56 AM »

Here are a few pictures from the day and a video of a trim flight. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/W49b0gQqwgE
--Ates

thanks for sharing the youtube video, I wish my trim flights went as good as this.

js
Logged
atesus
Gold Member
*****

Kudos: 21
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 662


Topic starter


Ignore
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2013, 02:09:36 AM »

Thank you for the information John. I see what you mean by "grinding the plastic teeth" now that I see the photo. The button timer I purchased had no gear on it, it was just like the one on the left on your photo, so I wasn't sure. I had no experience whatsoever with these viscous timers. For some reason I was under the impression that I had to run it for a few turns. The fact that you can get repeatable performance at 1/2 turn=2 min is good information. Do you directly run the stab line to the timer in your P-30s (with the spring inserted somewhere in between) or do you use a force multiplier?

Best,

--Ates

Logged
jswain
Silver Member
****

Kudos: 5
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 146



Ignore
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 03:20:22 AM »

Hi Ates.
on the p30's i do use the force multiplyer or 'mouse-trap' set up. Like yours, the timer line has trapped one of the forcemultiplyer arms and when the string is released it in turn release the DT arm.

The catapult and tiplaunch gliders have DT lines that directly release the tail boom (swings up thus stopping forward/normal flight) but the load on the DT line is reduced in a way like the the peg your flying friend showed you.

Please take a look at Clints web site and this weblink to his Boomer P30 kit description of his dt moustrap setup, it is similiar to what you already have done http://www.cbmodeldesigns.com/plans/boomer-mkii-pop-up-wing-01.pdf.  This pdf shows a dual DT - for pop up wing and pop up stab.

Fyi - Clint's newest P30 kit 'Monarch' flys really well and has every bit or piece needed to build and fly (well, no Cya glue...) - all parts/plans/instructions/covering/timer/trimming hints/gizmo-geezer prop+prophub assy/etc...

take care, js
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!