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Author Topic: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model  (Read 641 times)
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Jez Wilkins
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« on: February 02, 2024, 01:56:56 PM »

Just for you, OZPAF/John. Grin

When the site went down, I was wondering  how I would make you aware of this. Smiley

This is a model for the Barton MFC's "A" Rat Class - rather than a 'Goodyear' model.  The photographs show the current state of the model - up to just before Christmas 2023.  I have done all of my model building for the last thirty years in our lounge, with a building board supported by two 'TV tables'!!  I have a very understanding/long-suffering wife - but even she requires the place to look respectable for the festive season!! Grin

Further progress has also been slowed by building the engine starter stand - pictures of which I have recently posted in the appropriate part of the forum.

There is not much left to do.  Try to achieve the correct CG by engine placement - install engine mounting studs, fit (already completed) bellcrank and pushrod assembly and establish leadout position - to ensure that the model's nose is pointing very slightly out of the circle - and that's about it.  It's going to have a K&B '21' (3.5cc) glow in it.  Barton MFC have their first comp. for "A" Rat in early April.  The hope is to have it tested and competing there - subject to weather and all other things falling into place. Smiley

Cheers

Jez Wilkins       

   
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'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
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Ratz (Bruce)
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2024, 02:31:34 PM »

Fine Craftsmanship there Jez, that you can create fine specimens in the shop that you have...  Cheesy  What performance can you expect? I have a project similar in the same category and class.

"we have been doing, so long with so little, that we now know how to do anything with nothing"
(Famous military quote)
 Grin

Bruce (Ratz)
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OZPAF
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2024, 08:14:17 PM »

Thanks Jezz. It looks very neat and businesslike. I' m

,honoured by your choice of name. Your long experience in building racing , CL models shows. Good luck with it. Cheers John
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Jez Wilkins
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2024, 09:33:19 AM »

Hi Bruce and OZPAF/John.  Thanks very much for the posts and the comments.  I like the quote Bruce. Smiley

OZPAF/John.  Given that you supplied the drawing - the naming of the model really didn't take much thinking about.  Long experience in building racing CL models?  Hmm.  Some experience, in building, maybe - and pinching other builders' good ideas, whenever I come across them.  Grin  Actually even less experience, in racing, when it boils down to it. Roll Eyes

Which leads me on to your 'performance' question, Bruce.  I don't wish this thread to degenerate/drift into a 'tale of woe' about the past successes and future demise of aeromodelling in general - but maybe some context is necessary, in this instance.    

"A" Rat is a Barton MFC 'club' class and (unlike their 'Barton B' and 'Classic 15' classes) has never made it into the British Model Flying Associations [BMFA's] official C/L Rule Books - so it is not flown at our 'Nationals'.  I think that it was probably devised so that people could use the '21'/3.5 cc glow engines that they still had in their drawers from when 'Goodyear' in the U.K. morphed into people using K&B's and OPS' and for which no modern class was currently available (U.K. Goodyear now being 'British Goodyear' and 'Open Goodyear').  In "A" Rat, some have used modified modern 'buggy' engines, though.

The Barton MFC calendar for 2024 lists three "A" Rat contests for this year - 7 April, 14 July and 8 September https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=27386.0.  I think that there were a similar number last year.  I didn't, for various reasons, get to any of them last year and I do remember going to one (not sure when - maybe 2021) where the weather turned out to be so bad that it was unflyable.

The numbers of people competing in U.K. control line team racing are reducing (as opposed to U.K. Aerobatics, where numbers appear to me to be relatively stable and U.K. Vintage Combat - where numbers actually appear to be increasing - albeit not to the extent where are going at it for three days solid at the 'Nationals', in order to get finished in time - as they had to 'back in the day' Grin).

I know that one exponent of "A" Rat, who raced Texas Quickie Rat in the U.S.A. (Jim Holland) very sadly died of a heart attack in December 2021 and another has moved well away from the Barton site and is no longer competing.  The end result of all of this is that there are sometimes not enough teams to run "A" Rat and, although Barton have a policy of never cancelling competitions (you make your own decision as to whether or not to travel) sometimes teams get there and it is unflyable - wind, rain, whatever.  COVID-19, obviously, curtailed all activity, for quite a while.

All that to state that the only times that I have for mine and other "A" Rat racers stem from a meeting at Barton on Sunday 7 October 2018 - screenshot attached.

My "A" Rat model was an 'A-RAT 135'  - which somebody told me was designed by (the well known, in the U.K.) Dave Clarkson - but I don't know if this is correct - and there is no attribution (or source, for that matter) on the copy that I have.  The attached picture was taken on the day - and the outboard wing shows evidence of a previous break. Broken again on the day - and now repaired again.  So, now a bit heavier than when it started. Roll Eyes

Ed Needham (who raced back in the days of OPS and K&B U.K. Goodyear) told me that the K&B was faster than the OPS.  'OZPAF' has a smaller wing area than the 'A-RAT 135'  design (105 square inches vs 135 square inches)  - should be quicker?

Attached are some other "A" Rat model pictures from 7 October 2018.  I regret that I cannot attribute the models to teams, though.

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins

 
            

        

  
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
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Jez Wilkins
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2024, 10:13:38 AM »

Hi  again all.

All of the above 'guff' - and it don't make much sense without the rules for the "A" Rat class, does it?  Roll Eyes

At Barton, all lines and leadouts must be of 'traditional carbon steel' - no stainless steel allowed.

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins

Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
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OZPAF
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2024, 11:00:20 PM »

No stainless lines Jezz? Do they have a bad reputation? I guess steel stranded lines are out - too much drag?

I also noticed that it looked like you had 2 horns on the elevator. I'm guessing that the one on the engine side is for the fuel cutoff while the other is the normal elevator horn?

Also it looks like you have a sheet steel bellcrank support - supported off the fuse instead of the wing?

Interesting little details.

Hope you get to maiden it soon - the wing looks very nice.

John
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Jez Wilkins
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2024, 10:12:14 PM »

Hi OZPAF/John.

Thanks very much for the further post and interest.

Regarding the "no stainless lines and leadouts" this is certainly a Barton MFC rule for all control line team racing models.  I don't fly aerobatic C/L models - so am unsure as to whether this rule applies to these, also.

Please see the attached 'screenshot' - taken from 'Google Maps'.  The red arrow is the access to the Barton MFC site - it is through a 'crash gate' of the 'Manchester Barton Aerodrome' (which I am told is the original Manchester Airport).  The Barton MFC's site is outlined in red.  The area outlined in blue is a Police Helicopter compound and that in black is an Air Ambulance Compound.  At one time, they flew combat in the 'mown' area, to the left of the access - but no longer allowed - for quite some years.  One of the grass circles had a line length/height restriction - possibly might not even be used any more.  At one stage, all models in flight had to fly level/land when the police helicopter was taking off/landing - but I'm not sure that this is the case any more.  I do know that club officials are required by the aerodrome authorities to attend the regular (quarterly?) 'health and safety' (probably the incorrect term) meetings that all other Aerodrome (full-size) users have to go to.  So, it's probably fair to state that the Barton MFC's use of the site is closely regulated.

I have been told (I've never looked that closely) that stainless wire has a central strand (or 'core') with other strands wound (spiralled?) around it.  As I understand it, the logic is that the central core could be damaged by a pull test - but the damage not be apparent until 'full down' is applied, to shut off the motor for a pit stop, when all the force (again maybe not the correct term) is momentarily applied to the 'down' line, causing it to fail.  The model is then only tethered by the 'up' line, which could also then fail - resulting in a flyaway (of whatever stability and duration).

Some may argue that the above is nonsense.  It really doesn't matter, either way.  It's a Barton MFC rule.  Their club, their rules - no comply - no fly.  Simples!! Smiley

The easiest 'traditional carbon steel' lines to find, in the U.K. at least, are those supplied by Progress Aero Works [PAW] - not least because Tony (and Chris) Eifflaender are Club members and Tony usually has some lines and other bits with him at competitions. Grin  I have attached a couple of 'screenshots' from his website - the first gives some details of the specifications (and prices) and the second - some (different) prices.  Not listed on the website - but there is also 18 thou. line in 40 metre(?) lengths.  It is three stranded - I don't know, off-hand, where one would get solid lines in the U.K..  I've never had a set - but I seem to recall reading that they can be problematic in the wet - binding - treating with 'Windex' to reduce this problem?

I've found the PAW 'Staystrate' lines to be really good - you need to be a bit more careful, in use, with them than with stainless lines - they are a bit more 'springy'/less flexible and much less tolerant of 'kinks' - but otherwise no issues.

Yup, two horns - and you are correct as to the function of each of the two.  The wing is set low in the fuselage - too low to site the bellcrank under the wing, on the outboard side of the fuselage.  No space on the outboard upper side of the wing. The elevator could be on the outboard side, only - but then how do you get the pushrod (neatly and easily) from the inboard, to the outboard, side of the fuselage?  Just simplest/easiest to have the installation that you see.

The 'L' shaped bellcrank support is one of my 'stolen' ideas. Grin Credit needs to go to a gentleman who posts under the name of 'Sibbsie ' on the Barton MFC's 'Forum' website.  The attached 'screenshot' is of his 'Texas Quickie Rat' model, Enya 40 (Model 6002?) powered - constructed from oak boards that had originally formed part of the flooring in his house!! Shocked  He used to take a lot of 'ribbing' from people about that, when he competed with it. Grin

Regarding the mounting of the support - yes, on the fuselage - epoxied (and screwed) to a 'hard point' (small piece of beech engine bearer) let into the balsa fuselage before the 1/32" ply doubler sides and balsa cheek pod are fitted.  The final  attached 'screenshot' shows this, and the further two 'hard points' for the fuel tank fixing screws (the fuel shut-off is soldered to the bottom of the tank, rather than requiring a separate screw fixing).

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins     

       

                   
Attached files Thumbnail(s):
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
Re: 'OZPAF' - Barton Model Flying Club "A" Rat Team Racing Model
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OZPAF
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2024, 06:09:10 AM »

Thanks for all that info Jezz. I also periodically look at the Barton website as it almost appears to be the mouthpiece of competition CL in the UK and also has a lot of input from OZ and NZ!

I flew CL - 1cc (Bee) and 2.5cc, sports models on 3 strand steel wire at the time produced locally by a company called Aeroflyte. A bit more CL flying still remains on my " to do" list - down a fair way at the moment though.

Cheers
John
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Jez Wilkins
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2024, 08:19:55 AM »

Hi again OZPAF/John.

You are most welcome. Smiley

The Barton website is a good one for CL content - as you state.  However, there don't seem to be that many of the 'hardcore' U.K. CL competitors (both team race and combat) posting there anymore.  Maybe they have gone to specialist groups on Facebook?  I wouldn't know - I don't do Facebook - although I have thought about doing so, from time to time.  I just always seem to reach the conclusion that the disadvantages of doing so outweigh the advantages.

I seems to me that a lot of aeromodellers started with CL and FF and then diversified into RC when they got a bit more money in their pockets.  Some - like me - have never diversified!! Grin

My "to do" list just gets longer, as I add things to the bottom of it, much quicker than I take things off of the top of it!! Roll Eyes

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins     
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billdennis747
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2024, 08:28:53 AM »

My "to do" list just gets longer, as I add things to the bottom of it, much quicker than I take things off of the top of it!! Roll Eyes    
Tell me about it!
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Jez Wilkins
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2024, 08:10:13 PM »

Hi Bill

I think that most, if not all, aeromodellers are like this, aren't they?

Cheers,

Jez Wilkins
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OZPAF
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2024, 04:00:32 AM »

Quote
My "to do" list just gets longer, as I add things to the bottom of it, much quicker than I take things off of the top of it!! Roll Eyes

Quote
Hi Bill
I think that most, if not all, aeromodellers are like this, aren't they?

Yes that's for sure. However with interests spread over RC, FF and CL - I will just have to work harder  Smiley  famous last words!

John
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