Hip Pocket Builders' Forum

Control Line Forum => Sport => Topic started by: simpleflyer on November 07, 2008, 12:52:16 AM



Title: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on November 07, 2008, 12:52:16 AM
We began building models at age 11 in 1951. A classmate had introduced us to Comet kits. After building a few, we decided to try to fly them. Our knowledge and skill in the use of rubber and prop carving was very limited, so rubber powered flight did not happen for us at that time. However, we did notice this sketch in picture 2 on one of the Comet plans.

Using a bit of thread we flew a 50 cent Corsair successfully using this method. Another Comet kit flown by swing control was a 25 cent F-86D. The kit’s model plan showed fittings and placement, and the model flew really well. Also we flew some Guillows shelf models via swing control..

In more recent years we have revisited swing control a number of times. We found an excellent article in the July 1944 issue of Model Airplane News by F.L. Hendren describing his experience with swing control. Eyeing our Guillows 600 series Super Cub that is not a very good backyard flyer due to our limited space, we decided to try it as a swing control flyer.

First the wing tip was reinforced and a loop of line attached. The prop and rubber was replaced with a wad of clay shaped into a spinner. Next we got our 2 piece retrieval cane pole from Wal-Mart, and attached an approximate 2 inch loop of soft wire to the tip of the top section, to serve as line guide. Then we robbed a Guillows kit of the bobbin of line that is supplied for tether flying. Made a loop in the end of the line on the bobbin and connected the bobbin loop with the wing tip loop and came up with the rig in picture 2.

Now into the backyard and try this sucker out. We spooled out about 10 feet of line past the tip and began swinging. Ideally, the idea is to turn while swinging the line and flying the airplane. At our age, turning around in a tight circle is not a good idea as we would get dizzy and fall. So we just swing the pole overhead in a circle and face in one direction. This works well for us. On the first flights about 10 to 12 feet of line beyond the tip of the pole was used as it was a bit breezy. In calm conditions greater line lengths could be used. Swinging with one hand allows us to capture a couple pictures( #3 and #4) from inside the flight circle.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: greggles47 on November 07, 2008, 09:59:05 PM
Thanks for sharing that. I love the model, it looks great in flight.

I'm glad to see that people are still reinventing stuff we knew back then.

Regards


Greg


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on November 08, 2008, 01:49:37 AM
Thanks, Greg, for your comment. We are a child of the 40’s and have retained an interest in and a satisfaction with these lost and forgotten arts. Especially in these tumultuous and uncertain times these activities are enjoyable and a great stress reliever and cheap.

Another swing control model that we are currently flying is a modified Guillow’s Cloud Buster. We’ve modified the nose and installed oversized wheels and it flys great.

Al


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: thymekiller on November 08, 2008, 08:30:36 AM
I had seen the picture but until now, never took it serious. [Don't know why not ] Now I have to try it. Its kinda odd. Most of ya'll were better flyers at 12 than I am at 44.

thymekiller


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: 50+AirYears on January 31, 2009, 06:49:40 PM
I used to fly Monogram Speedee built jets using a fishing rod with bait casting reel for whipping. Flew till I was too dizzy to stand. Wanted to try setting up something with regular cl. An old American Modeller had plans for a whip control with 2-line control line. I think even Walker or Stanzel had a kit for this.
I recall a story in an old Air Trails about a group in one of the New England states would do this on windy days with regular cl planes, with up to 60' lines. They could fly almost all day just working the downwind side of the circle.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: applehoney on February 01, 2009, 12:30:00 PM
...on windy days with regular cl planes, with up to 60' lines. They could fly almost all day just working the downwind side of the circle.

I saw this done once in the past, in England. A windy day and a C/L flyer found that after his tank was dry he could carry on doing loops and horizontal 8's etc downwind, even with a dead engine


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on September 15, 2009, 01:30:08 AM
Checking this thread about 'swing control', I see that not much is happening here. So I guess, I,ll post a few more pix of some of our 'swingers'. In this selection are the following:

An Avia C99 modified from an old Guillows plan of a rubber powered profile model of a ME-109. The C99 is of about eleven inches and flys well in calm conditions.

A modified Boom-Boom from a plan of a sheetwood Jetex powered model, from an old Flying Models magazine. The Boom-Boom is less than twelve inches WS and flys well in all weather conditions except rain and storms. We can swing it out on lines exceeding 25 feet. Pretty remarkable for such a tiny model.

A modified Guillows Fly Boy built from a kit. An excellent flyer.

A Modified Guillows Javelin built from a kit. Also an excellent flyer.

A Weiss designed 'minute model' of the P-51. Built from plans. Flys OK, but doesn't like wind. About thirteen inches wingspan.

Finally a Stinson 108, post-WW2 dime model by Comet. Built from plan and has about twelve inch wingspan.

A wide variety of models can be flown via swing control. Easy to build, easy to fly, and fly well.

Al


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on December 13, 2012, 11:12:37 PM
After a long absence, I guess we should up date this thread.  During the past year we've begun to build more profile swing control models.  When we built controline models as a youngster, most of our models were profile models.  These built up quickly, flew well, and were a lot of fun.

Here is a quartet of recent profile 'swingers':  starting top left to right.  (1) Guillows CE-180 modified to a profile fuselage with a Cloudbuster wing and CE 180 kit tail  (2) Guillows Piper Cub modified to profile TG-8 with kit wings and tail.  Bottom left to right.  (3)  Guillows 900 P-51 modified to a profile racer(Anson Johnson) fuselage with kit wings and tail.  (4) Guillows 500 P-40 modified to a profile with kit wings and sheet balsa tail.



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on December 13, 2012, 11:18:04 PM
The CE-180, TG-8, P-51, AND P-40 in flight.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on December 17, 2012, 11:24:36 PM
Today, to celebrate Wright brother's day we flew the profile P-51 and profile Monarch 26.  The Monarch 26 was civilian conversion of the Douglas A-26.  The Monarch 26 is scratch built of all sheet construction with a 16 inch wingspan.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: logair358430 on January 10, 2013, 08:44:04 PM
What I remember is a P-39 looking all balsa airplane with a bell crank as in u/control utilizing two lines to control up and down movement on the elev. It was powered using the swing method. Never tried it but it appears to be a great way to introduce youngsters into the hobby. Logair


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on January 30, 2013, 06:18:06 PM
Thank you, Logair, for your comment.  What you describe sounds like the Jim Walker Whip-Power U-Control.  The late Frank Macy reintroduced these in the mid 1980s.  By 2004 he expanded his whip-control fleet to four aircraft.  Prior to his death, he had nearly doubled his fleet of whip-control models.

http://www.americanjuniorclassics.com/WhipPower/whipower.htm (http://www.americanjuniorclassics.com/WhipPower/whipower.htm)

Black Hawk Models now produces these models.

http://www.blackhawkmodels.com/whip.html (http://www.blackhawkmodels.com/whip.html)

'Logair' has a familiar ring to it, back in the 1960's when we were in the USAF, there was a civilian firm with that name that used to fly into and had facilities at some of the air bases where we were stationed.  Is there a connection?


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: applehoney on January 30, 2013, 07:44:17 PM
>'Logair' has a familiar ring to it, back in the 1960's when we were in the USAF, there was a civilian firm with that name that used to fly into and had facilities at some of the air bases where we were stationed.  Is there a connection?

Loganair  ?

 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on January 31, 2013, 06:23:17 PM
Quote
Loganair  ?

I did a quick 'google search' of 'logair' and came up with this.

http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac3/Non-skeds/Capitol%20Airways%20Logair%20Curtiss%20C-46.html
 (http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac3/Non-skeds/Capitol%20Airways%20Logair%20Curtiss%20C-46.html)

To the best of my recollection the Logair that I saw so many years ago was a C-46.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on February 02, 2013, 11:32:34 PM
Our latest little 'swinger' is this eleven inch wingspan profile model of the Lockheed XP-80, LulluBelle.

We started with a 3-vu drawing by Bjorn Karlstrom.  pic 1

Manipulated it in MS paint and printed it to cardstock and cut it up for parts patterns.  pic2

Used the patterns to make up a 'ZIP' kit of LulluBelle.  pic3

Did some glue work.  pix 4 & 5

And ended up with Lullubelle in profile form.  pic 6


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on February 02, 2013, 11:41:07 PM
Then we took LulluBelle out and allowed her to play in the fresh air and she likes it.  Flys well but is a bit sensitive to gusty air.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on February 16, 2013, 12:12:02 AM
Although the mornings are chilly, later in the day it warms up and the sky remains clear with light breezes.  Great days for flying.  Today we flew a couple of the older 'swingers'.

First a much modified CloudBuster with a FlyBoy wing.  Then our first modified CloudBuster with a new CB wing. 

The second post at the beginning of this thread shows how the first CloudBuster was modified.  It began with a stock kit built CB with the rubber and prop removed.  This was replaced with a trough of 1/16 sheet built onto the nose to hold clay ballast.  And the nose gear was relocated.  Later the wing and tail were changed to a removable mounting system and the landing gear was removed.  The next CloudBuster had a scratch-built glider type stick fuselage.  The 2nd CB wing and tail surfaces were built pretty much according to the kit plan.

Both flew well until running into an occasional gust, then the model departs from a stable flight pattern.  That's when the tether line proves its value,  Usually. the flight can be salvaged and model damage is minimized.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on March 06, 2013, 10:07:13 PM
During the past few weeks we've had a couple of days of frontal passage when the wind would blow several hours during the day approaching speeds of 30 to 40 miles per hour.  This reminded us of a method of flying conventional CL models by means of a modified form of swing control referred to as 'wind flying'.  We had read an article about it in a Air Trails Young Men magazine over 50 years ago.  Attached is a picture and text describing the process.  We've never tried this method, but it seems possible.  Enjoy,


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on March 06, 2013, 10:38:23 PM
We had some degree of success a few years ago flying a control line model by swing control.  Our long time friend and chiild hood CL mentor, Smitty, gave me a Half-A Sig Skyray model in early 2010.  We  were beginning our swing control activities at the time so we tried flying the Skyray as a 'swinger'.  For a test flight, we made a few quick mods.  Bent the LG forward and attached some clay.  Removed the CL leads, bellcrank, and pushrod and glued the horizontal tail into a single piece.  The  first test flights were promising.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on March 06, 2013, 10:54:18 PM
To improve the flight characteristics of the 'swinger', we removed some rear fuselage structure.  Extended and reinforced the nose.  Flight characteristics did in fact improve.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on June 09, 2013, 08:48:57 PM
Many years ago, in 1952, we received a Jim Walker FireBaby powered by a K&B 049 as a Christmas present.  We were 12 years old at the time and the FireBaby was our first Control Line model.  A combination of lack of experience, no mentor, and a less than suitable place to fly resulted in the demise of the FireBaby.

Several years ago we purchased a much used but intact FireBaby from a model vendor at a IPMS show.  We disassembled the model and copied the parts with the intention of scratch building a replica FireBaby and once again try to fly it.

Now that we fly virtually all our models via swing control, we decided to try the FB as a swing control model.  We cleaned up the fuel soaked parts and repaired some cracks in the wooden parts.  A non-running Cox 020 TD was attached for a nose weight, which located the CG in the right place for swing control flight.

As a 'swinger' the FireBaby is an excellent flier.  Providing much of the sensation of a CL model, except that it is much simpler to fly, quieter, and can be flown in our back yard.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on June 14, 2013, 03:37:36 AM
Several years ago, we had the good fortune of finding a couple of Stanzel Flash 500s at our local Wal-Mart. 

One of them was converted to swing control flight.  An easy job, requiring only the removal of the prop and drive cable  w/housing.  Then replacing the removed parts with a bit of weight. 

The Flash 500 is a fine flying and graceful looking little aircraft in flight. 

Pix taken during a back yard flight session a couple days ago :) 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: FLYACE1946 on August 03, 2013, 05:41:50 PM
How much room is required for these to go around and around ?


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on August 05, 2013, 01:14:03 AM
Thank you, FlyAce1946, for your question. 

Our flying area in our backyard is about 40 by 60 feet.  Most of our flying is done in this area.  For all-weather flying a pole+line combination of about 23 feet is used.  This is a 'crash proof' arrangement, if anything happens to cause the model to stop flying or go out of control, the pole is simply raised to a vertical position overhead and the model can't crash.

The determining factor for space requirements is the size of the model and the pole+line length.  For small models and a short line, small models may be flown indoors.

The profile Stinson pictured below has a 8 inch wingspan and is flown on a pole+line of about 7 feet.  The little foldup glider is flown in the living room.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on August 05, 2013, 01:47:52 AM
The total size of the back yard is about 70 by 80 feet.  In calm no wind conditions we can fly models on a pole+line combined length approaching 35 feet.

These pictures were taken last Christmas day when our neighbor was visiting us with her grown children.  The models flown were the profile P-51 and profile CE-180, both of about 24 inches wingspan.  Brandon the eldest son is flying with the pole+line combination of 23 feet.  He had not flown swing control models before.

In the last picture, I am flying the P-51 on a pole+line combination of about 30 feet.  The P51 is in the upper right corner of the pic.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on August 05, 2013, 02:29:15 PM
Quote
The P51 is in the upper right corner of the pic.

Oooops, make that the upper left corner of the pic.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on September 12, 2013, 12:55:04 AM
Recently, we were browsing the Guillows web site and came upon their commercial foam gliders at.

http://guillowgliders.com/foamgliders.htm (http://guillowgliders.com/foamgliders.htm)

A couple of the gliders appeared to be suited for quickie inexpensive 'ZIP" swingers. Namely, the Jet Wing and the Mono Plane.  Good for flying models for beginners.  Affordable and easy to make. 

PDF files of the foam gliders are downloadable from  the Guillow site.  So we downloaded the Jet Wing and the Mono Plane.  Printed them and combined them to a single page.  Modified the Guillows shapes with MS paint and came up with this pattern sheet which can be printed to a letter sized sheet of card stock.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on September 12, 2013, 12:58:24 AM
To build the models, the pattern sheet was printed to card stock.  The shapes were cut from the card stock and traced to scraps of sheet foam obtained from recycled leftover food containers.  The parts are cut out and assembled with white glue.  The Jet Wing consists of four parts.  A hole is cut in the nose to hold weight for balancing.  The trailing edges of the Jet Wing are bent upwards on the dotted lines on the pattern to form elevons.  For test flights one doubler is glued in place and the weights are held in place with a bit of tape until the balance point is determined.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on September 12, 2013, 01:01:49 AM
The completed Jet Wing and some flight pix.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on September 19, 2013, 03:11:21 PM
The cutting patterns and material for the monoplane 'Zip' flyer is shown two posts prior to one.

The first attachment shows the parts needed for the monoplane, six in total.

Next shows the fuselage being glued to a doubler.  The two part fuselage will allow for a removable wing.

Next the two doublers are glued together.  The forward fuselage when slid on to the rear fuse captures the wing in place.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on September 19, 2013, 03:19:18 PM
The monoplane 'Zip' flyer is ready for flying.  The patterns in the first pic are for a future 'Zip' flyer, A profile C-118.

A couple flight pix of the monoplane.  In the far right of the second pic there is a dove flying in loose formation with the monoplane ;)


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on October 14, 2013, 10:07:02 PM
Our most recent addition to our fleet of swingers is this profile C-118.  First we take a plan by H. A. Thomas of a solid model DC-6 and scan it.  Next we manipulate it in MicroSoft paint to the the primary shapes of the airplane to print it to card stock to get the templates for cutting wood.  The card stock is cut up and the patterns are used to cut out the balsa parts.  Some decorative markings are applied to the balsa parts with a gel pen, and now we have a 'ZIP' kit ready for assembly.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on October 14, 2013, 10:24:41 PM
Assembly starts with attaching the vertical tail to the fuselage and attaching doublers to the fuselage and nacelles.  Wing dihedral is formed and the wing is glued to the fuselage and horizontal is attached.  After the wing joint dries, the nacelles are attached.  A temporary line loop is added to the wing tip and some BBs are added to the nose and the C-118 is ready for flight.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on October 14, 2013, 10:28:19 PM
Some flight pix of the C-118.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sprogs on February 17, 2014, 06:22:58 AM
Hi.
    I'm quite fascinated by the idea of swing control as a way of introducing myself to powered control line flying. At 60 I'm a bit concerned about dizziness so I could see how I coped with that, and it looks as if it's possible to use a cl handle to control the elevator too. Just a couple of questions, when I've built free flight I've always built light, with swing would the weight be such an issue? would a bit more weight even be an asset? Secondly, I have bought a second hand cl plane, if I run the lines through a rod, and keep the u handle would that fly? Do I really need to remove the prop and engine or can I just leave them on to keep the balance? These might seem obvious questions but I really am a complete beginner to c/l so any advice is appreciated.
Cheers
Dave


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: billdennis747 on February 17, 2014, 10:03:53 AM
There was an article on this in Aeromodeller about 1966. He called it whip control and described flying all sorts of machines - Hudson, Boston, Lancaster. I can dig it out next week when I get home if you wish. It was nothing like CL though. He controlled height with speed.
Bill


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Saint Alfonzo on February 17, 2014, 02:09:26 PM
For those of us in England take a look here......... http://www.densmodelsupplies.co.uk/index.php?t=&c=whip_power

These are from BlackHawk models if you are in the USA.. :)


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sprogs on February 17, 2014, 02:19:01 PM
Thanks Bill.
I would be very interested in the article any way.  I'm going to make a profile model just to give it a go, as usual I suspect simple will go out the window and stupid fk10 or bv141 will take over. I'll let you know the results./
cheers
dave


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sprogs on February 17, 2014, 02:28:25 PM
Thanks for the link  Saint Alfonzo, COX ENGINES WITH SILENCERS! and electric c/l! just the ticket. Maybe I'll finally be able to repair the cox motor my dog ate in 1976, the first ic model I'd ever built, (eindekker Fokker) I finally finished it and went off to work, I came home to find 1/ - a guilty puppy, 2/ - two wingtips and 3 - a very chewed engine. I thought I'd lost the engine but it turned up again a few years ago, it's spent the last two years on the front of my flying cap with the prop freewheeling in the wind.
cheers
Dave


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: billdennis747 on February 17, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
PM your address and I will sort it next week
Bill


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sprogs on February 19, 2014, 08:02:04 AM
Have any of you tried flying any of the card scale models from fiddlers Green? I know some people have converted some of them to free flight. I scaled up some of their models a while back and I think it's worth a try. I'm going to make another flying flea scaled up to about 12 or so inch span and give it a go. I'll let you know.
cheers
dave


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on March 14, 2014, 12:22:29 AM
A couple of months ago we participated in a Comet dimer cookup at the Stick and Tissue.  They graciously allowed me to built a modified Phantom Flash for the cookup.  First, we converted the PF plan to a JPG and worked it over in MS paint to get a page with the basic shapes of the Flash.  Then we beefed up the structure and squared off the surface tips to simplify the construction.  The tailboom and flying surfaces were made to be removable for storage and transportation and ease of repair.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on March 14, 2014, 12:46:05 AM
So we ended up with something that resembles a hand launch glider.  Put a bit of a nail into the nose and tossed it a few times in the back yard to ensure a straight and level glide path.  Swing flight performance of this little craft(14 inch wing-span) is very good and it makes a great back yard flyer.

Al


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on July 13, 2014, 05:05:43 PM
The most recent 'swinger' is an old Guillows shelf model of a B-29 modified for swing control.  We built a few of these Guillows shelf models as a youngster and flew them successfully as swingers.  A while back, a modeler friend, Bill Parker, gave us a Guillows shelf model of the B-29.  So we decided to try it again.

During the course of the build, Norma and I took a trip to Louisiana to visit family and friends.  We diverted our journey to make a short visit to the museum at Barksdale AFB in Shreveport.  There we saw the B-29 below on display.

While there, I took the opportunity to visit the Combat Skyspot Memorial also located at the BAFB museum and paid respects to some fallen brave heroes whose story has only come to light in recent years.  More information about these men and their bravery is at:  http://limasite85.us/ (http://limasite85.us/)

Upon returning home construction began on the B-29.  The picture shows most of the parts needed for assembly.



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on July 13, 2014, 05:24:25 PM
Originally, the kits were assembled with a piece of paper cut from the building plan to cover the bottom of the model.  As a kid we built them per the plan, but felt that the paper fuselage bottom could be improved upon.  So this time  the construction was altered to sheet the fuselage bottom form a long box that could be shaped into the cylindrical form of the B-29.

Also the nacelle construction was changed to make the nacelles deeper in height.

A temporary removable horizontal tail was fitted for the shaping process and fitting of tail parts.  Basswood pegs were used for this.

The partially assembled model ready for final shaping.  The challenge was now to reveal the B-29 lurking in  this assemblage of balsa.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on July 13, 2014, 05:43:37 PM
With the help of a razor plane, a sharp knife, and some sandpaper the B-29 was found.  A simple tool consisting of a pointed piece of wire embedded into the end of a wood dowel made useful holder for the nacelles during shaping.

The B-29 was temporarily rigged for test flights.  A few pins were needed for initial test flights which were promising.



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on July 13, 2014, 05:51:32 PM
With proper nose weight and swing line location, the B-29 is a fine flier despite its tiny ten inch wingspan.  It is a bit sensitive to gusty and unstable air as the last picture shows.  For this reason, we fly it on a short line attached to the swing pole.

Thanks again, Bill, for the gift of the kit.

Al


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Graiskye on July 13, 2014, 06:17:49 PM
 Nice to see you still flying you swingers Al. I too am gonna have to give it a try as I have two nephews who are just about the perfect age to start getting into this swing flying. Looks like you have a great time with it.
 Heres to many more great flights, and great models.
-Mike


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on July 14, 2014, 07:29:41 PM
Thank you, Mike, for your kind comment.  I wish a lot of success and enjoyment for you and your nephews if you choose to try swing control.  It is a very affordable way to get into model airplane building and flying.  The choice of models is vast.  Flying can be done almost anywhere.  It is quiet, requires little pre-flight preparation.  With a few weather proofing and structural considerations, the models may be flown in many conditions that would ground many other models.

Yes, I have a great time with these models and am blessed with the opportunity to fly often and whenever the the urge to so comes upon me.

Al


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: deniscullinan on November 17, 2016, 04:15:52 PM
With the help of a razor plane, a sharp knife, and some sandpaper the B-29 was found.  A simple tool consisting of a pointed piece of wire embedded into the end of a wood dowel made useful holder for the nacelles during shaping.

The B-29 was temporarily rigged for test flights.  A few pins were needed for initial test flights which were promising.


It's pretty impressive the way Al can get such a real-looking in-flight picture from a small sheet balsa kit from long ago. Tether flying is a good idea, but too bad our young kids are now wrapped up in those computer games.

-----Denis


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: LOUCRANE on December 09, 2016, 07:17:26 PM
Bump? Nah...

Thoughts about "whip control" models and flying them... They are silent. They are clean (no oily exhaust mess; no expensive fuel.) Their radius is relatively small compared to powered tethered models. GOOD! And they are very gratifying - even FUN!

As an old ad stressed - Balsa flies better... (opinion, and I agree)

Using a short stick to either tie onto at the flier end of the line, or simply to extend your 'reach' and fly a larger radius while still keeping your cookies down. (Longer lap times, less dizziness and stomach rebellion.) To whip, keep the 'stick' aimed ahead of the model as you turn. IOW, tow the model around. The 'whip' also allows a decent measure of actual UP and DOWN control. And, the moves required are intuitive. How's it work?

Say you're using a hardwood 1/4" (~6mm) dowel 3' (~1 meter) long. Either attach the flying line at the tip of the stick, or use an eyelet like a fishing rod tip guide. (useful if you roll up the line between sessions.) You can fly well over a 20' (~6M+) radius! It might take pulling some slack line into the other hand, like building added reach when fly-casting, to launch without assistance.

The trick is to balance the model wa-ay forward. Usually you'll use a wire guide ahead of the wingtip leading edge. Gross description - something that looks like a soap-bubble wand, in miniature.

The SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE:
(A) Pull on your flying string in flight will point at the model's CG (balance point fore and aft,) regardless of aerodynamic shapes. (or it will try to...)
(B) The aerodynamic bits are all aft of the CG and will trail the path the CG takes.
(C) Put the model's tip guide as near the near (inboard) wing tip as possible. The pull on your flying line(s) will help kill any tendency for the model to roll away from level. (Or, at least, from parallel to the flying line.)

Thus- point the stick's tip guide above the model's location as you whip it around. That puts the CG into a rising path. The aerodynamic bits will trail the CG ( just as the cloth of flags and pennants, that cheerleaders wave, trail the path of their flag "mast.")

Control will not be as crisp and positive as with an operating elevator, of course, but it WILL be there. Control Line model fliers often 'whip' their models in the landing glide - after the motor or engine noise stops - to make a smoother landing, or to reach a pit man, or to escape tricks the wind may create. And, that's with steel cable lines 60' (~17M) or more in length and no arm-extension stick.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: LOUCRANE on December 09, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
To Sprogs...

I've been flying control-line for well over 60 years, and I've welcomed many to, or returning to, control-line flight over the past few decades...

I usually suggest that CL flight is a learned reflex, like the skills in riding a bicycle. After a significant time away, when you come back, you can do it, but you WILL notice how shaky you can be, and how much work it is. That fades almost immediately!

Welcome back to "the best of circles!"


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: KDus on March 21, 2017, 05:40:14 PM
This is why I discovered control line as a youth. My grandfather's air scouts manual from the 40's described this thread.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: simpleflyer on March 30, 2017, 11:39:43 PM
Thank you, Dustin, for your comment.  It is interesting to learn that the Air Scouts used the concept of swing control models in their manual.  There was some interest and activity in swing control in the 1940s, but when the more conventional and complex model materials became available after the enc of WW2, swing control has become a scarce art.

Al


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sprogs on April 06, 2017, 03:14:35 PM
Dear Simpleflyer
I am privileged to be trusted to look after my friend Julie's kid Jake who is autistic. He absolutely loves cars, boats and now planes. I would like to build with him a swing control model so that he an his friends can play safely and locally with them. Would you consider publishing, in the plans section or this thread, a clear plan and instructions for a simple sheet swing control plane that we could build together ? I think it would be the start of something wonderful for him.
Liz


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: grey78 on June 14, 2017, 04:39:29 PM
Liz, did you ever try the whip control with your friend's kid?  How did it go?


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sprogs on June 15, 2017, 02:25:09 PM
Hi Grey78
Thank you for asking.
Unfortunately, for some time recently health issues have prevented me from seeing much of Jake, on a couple of occasions I've promised him an outing and not been able to leave the house. He takes these things very personally and I'm hoping to make it up to him.
I decided to keep things simple and I'm putting together an evans volksplane for him. All Flat sheet with a box fuselage, this means his action man can be pilot.
Liz
P.S. He is an absolute natural with my boomerangs, full circle 2nd day out !
P.P.s I'll post photos hopefully around early July.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: LOUCRANE on August 17, 2017, 03:23:58 PM
HI, Liz and all in here. Hope you've had progress!

I still prefer the term "whip control" for this type of flying. A whip is a simple tool, and perfectly illustrates the basic meaning of "tool," an extension of the abilities of the human critter.

In control line flying, a flier often has to stretch the landing glide. He calls his action: "whipping," although it is more like swinging his handle to pull the model, keep its speed so he can reach the point  where he wants it to touch down, (PC clarification: the masculine gender pronoun is used here without sexual significance. It fails to indicate which sex the person is - could be either  (or any one of many others?)   :D


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 19, 2019, 10:20:56 AM
I will definitely have a go at this. I have wanted to build an Avro Lincoln for years, but it would be too complicated for me either as CL or RC with four motors. I would like to go bigger than the usual 12 - 20'', but I don't know what the limits are. So I splashed out on a cheapo 44'' P-38 from AliExpress and a 28'' P-47 from Banggood. Both models come without RC, are foam and should be quite light. Minimum work required to convert.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 21, 2019, 05:06:37 AM
After a few days thinking about it, I decided to start off small before going onto the bigger stuff. More in line with what is shown here. So I ordered the very cute C17 (will remove the awful wheels and bin the RC ) and the Zyo-6 (less than €7!!). All very expendable Chinese cannon fodder and good for basic learning.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 26, 2019, 01:07:56 PM
I haven't received anything yet that I ordered from China, so I picked up a reduced Lidl Glider for €5,95. It spans 860mm and weighs 172g converted. I wanted to get started!!

I flew it today on my 2,96m pole with a 1,89m line. I had taken some thick solder with me in case I had to adjust the CG, which proved a good idea as it was nose heavy. I have now replaced the wrapped round solder with a hidden solution. However, I was disappointed by the way it flew. Like driving a fully laden bus around a ride and handling circuit. I guess the next step is to fly it on longer lines, which I hope to do tomorrow. However I got the feeling that my dream of large models may be beyond the capabilities of Whip Control. Especially if I need someone to launch for me.

If nothing else, it's a data point.  ::)


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: billdennis747 on June 26, 2019, 01:19:02 PM
Did you check out May 1967 Aeromodeller? He uses lines up to 25 feet and models with a loading of 7oz /100sg in. Line attaches 1/4" in front of cg. CG just behind LE and 2 degrees decalage.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 26, 2019, 01:19:52 PM
And then there's plan B. Which is basically doing what everyone else is doing successfully (particularly regarding model size and weight).

I rediscovered my old WLToys F939 Pole Cat - now there's a name for a Whip Control model !! I never liked flying it. It was covered in dust. Out came the motor and RC. It needed a bit of sprucing up, which was done with some artist's acrylic paints which were a reasonable colour match.

Here's the magic - 400mm span and a weight of 29g !! Just have to finish doing the tether on the wing tip tonight.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 26, 2019, 01:41:07 PM
Did you check out May 1967 Aeromodeller? He uses lines up to 25 feet and models with a loading of 7oz /100sg in. Line attaches 1/4" in front of cg. CG just behind LE and 2 degrees decalage.
Yes!!! It came out while I was at University and I remember it well. I have the issue in the cellar somewhere. They were sort of giant Keil Kraft models. The Lancaster was fabulous. Wonderful stuff!!!! It is certainly something I would like to try out, as well as Whip Control with a control line handle and elevator control.

I attached my line 3 degrees behind the CG just like on many CL models. I thought my Lidl Glider was flying somewhat 'tail out' and it definitely has 2 or 3 degrees decalage. The first couple of model are for test purposes and I have absolutely no qualms about hacking them about until I know what works.

I'll definitely build in a second more forward tether point on the Lidl Glider!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 27, 2019, 02:11:35 AM
Here is the modification to both models moving the tether point forward. The CG is on each model as a small black line. On the Lidl Glider the old one is the  forward line (was nose heavy) and the rear one is the new one. As the Lidl Glider has tip dihedral, I decided to move the tether point inboard. If that works out not to be a good idea, I'll move it to the tip again. I also made up a longer line for the Lidl Glider, from pole handle to hook on model 22 feet.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 27, 2019, 02:25:54 AM
I realize now why the tether point has to be ahead of the CG. On a control line model, the engine is on the centre line and the lines are raked back to 'line up' with the bow in the lines caused by drag. A whip model is quite different. As the model is pulled forward by the left tip, it will yaw to the right. If the CG is behind the tether, the model will dynamically yaw left and compensate.

I also wanted to see how the Lidl Glider's 'numbers' stacked up against the 1967 'giant Keil Kraft' whip models. (Need to face the terrors of the cellar and find the article). I was surprised! The 1967 models are given as having a wing loading of 7ozs/100 sq ins. The Lidl Glider after CG mods weighs 179g = 6,31ozs. The wing area is 1096 sq cms = 170 sq ins. So the wing loading is 3,71ozs/100 sq ins. A mere featherweight in comparison with the 1967 models!! So it should fly.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 27, 2019, 03:15:06 AM
Here we have it :

Lots of good data here!! I guess I should try a fuselage attachment point next. He was building models up to 12ozs and apparently taking off from the ground as the models had wheels.



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 27, 2019, 06:41:18 AM
I decided to add the Michael Payne type of fuselage attachment point to both models before the next test flights. I realized how lucky I had been choosing two foam models, as a new attachment is easily done by boring a hole with a screwdriver and reinforcing with surgical plaster!

I checked the decalage on the Lidl Glider. It's 3,5 degrees, so in line with his advice of at least 2 degrees. The Pole Cat has zero, but I can change that later, if needed, by slicing out a wedge from underneath the tailplane. I have done the same on a few indoor profile models to get the CG further forward.

I also want to try out his advice of 7ozs/100 sq ins loading. It would mean adding 160g to the Lidl Glider  :o  which I have as two 80g fishing weights. Maybe better a bit at a time!! It would also take the model to his maximum 12ozs, so it would provide good data for bigger models.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 28, 2019, 03:45:31 AM
Having read and re-read the 1967 Michael Payne article, I realized that something was very familiar. The tether points shown were exactly the same as I did on my 'Round The Pole' models in the 80's. Attached photos of three of them (but I made a whole lot more). I changed the fuselage tethers on the Lidl Glider and Pole Cat to wire, just like on the RTP models. Hoping to do some test flying today, but at the moment it's very windy.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 28, 2019, 05:48:23 AM
The test fleet has been joined by a Piper Cub. It was an electric free flight model (of toy quality) and was being sold for something like €5 as it was old stock and the battery wouldn't charge. It has been in my cellar since about 2005! The electrics/electronics could not be removed without major surgery, so I left it all in. The CG was OK, so there was really no reason to take it out and replace it by lead. The whole build and conversion took less than 2 hours.

My wife saw the wire tethers I had bent up for the other two models and said 'I have got just the thing for you'. And she did! Wire spikey things with a loop on them for holding wrapped meat together while cooking. Ideal!!

The Cub has a span of 530mm and a weight of 80g. It is still under Michael Payne's ideal 7ozs/100sq ins, coming out at 4,75ozs/100sq ins.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 29, 2019, 08:56:02 AM
The P-38 and the P-47 I ordered from Banggood arrived. I was very disappointed with the quality of the P-38. The foam mouldings are quite crude and very heavy. When I opened the P-47 box I couldn't believe my eyes. Every single foam part was smashed even though the box didn't have a scratch on it. I have had issues before with buying kits from China, but I guess I never learn. Maybe this time  :-[


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 03, 2019, 03:18:53 PM
I finally got the opportunity to do some testing. I just took the Pole Cat and the Piper Cub to keep things simple. I started off flying them on a pole + line length of 22 feet. I found that the Pole Cat flew more solidly on the forward wing tip tether than on the fuselage tether. The Piper Cub only has a fuselage tether and flew like the Pole Cat on that tether. Unfortunately there's no way to do a wing tip tether on the Cub as the wing is quite flimsy.

The next step was to lengthen the line. I went to a pole + line length of 35 feet. I only tried this with the Pole Cat. A friend offered to launch it, but that didn't work at all. I guess there's some technique we don't have yet. So I started out with the line short and let it slip out. Not perfect but it worked!! The Pole Cat looked fabulous flying on 35 feet. It felt very light when flying - it only weighs about 1oz - so I will try some ballasting and think about a better way of letting out the line.

In any case, a good step forward.  

PS - The Chinese C-17 (above) came and is absolutely fabulous! Superb quality and it will definitely make a good Whip Control model.  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 04, 2019, 01:14:42 AM
I woke up this morning with this design for the pole in my head. It's basically a 2:1 pulley system and I think it's better than having a fishing reel. It allows the model to be started without touching the ground and the line will extend to give a pole + line length of 35 feet. Just have to built it now.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 04, 2019, 09:56:01 AM
 I picked up a brand new 4,5 metre fishing rod from a flea market today for €8 !! I can start modifying.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 08, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Here is the finished extending line pole. I added a second guide ferrule at the handle end. Seemed like a good idea. I also incorporated a swivel at the top, although it's probably not necessary.
I'm very pleased with the result. I just have to test it now when the gale force winds relent.

It was a 4,5 metre fishing rod pole. I removed the top two sections which means that the pole is quite rigid as the top 'whippy' bits are no longer there.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 08, 2019, 11:30:10 AM
No chance of flying due to the wind, so I modified the C-17 to Whip Control. Roughly the same size and weight as my excellently flying Pole Cat, so I'm confident it will fly well too.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 10, 2019, 12:50:40 PM
The new extending line pole had a few issues. The line tended to tangle and the models were very hard to fly on the 3x pole length. I think the next step is to abandon the pulley concept and go for 2x pole length as a start, maybe with the line running up the middle of the pole.

I am now also convinced that the tip mounted tether on the model is the better solution.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 10, 2019, 08:57:08 PM
Interesting. I was looking at your C-17 and my impression is that the attachment point needs to be further forward - particularly for long lines. The line will angle back from the tip of the rod to the CG of the model at an angle depending on the line length and the weight of the model. It's the exact opposite of the line rake required for control line models as with whip control the power is coming from the whip and in control line from the model.

A small bracket extending from the wing parallel to the fuse with  few holes in would help to get the model flying smoothly.

Happy flying.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 12, 2019, 05:19:27 AM
Hi John

Thanks for your input and I completely agree with you. So pleased there is actually someone reading this stuff!! I have 3 new models (small Chinese foamies) and had already done the same as you mention. I tried just the fuselage tether as it was recommended in the Michael Payne article a few posts back, but it didn't work well for me.

Attached photos of the X-18, X-22 (each €8 on Ebay) and the Eagle (just over €6 from Banggood). The two jets fly fabulously well and I will now paint them in camouflage schemes with acrylic paint.

If anyone should try the X-18 or X-22, remove the rubber nose, use a Phillips screwdriver to make a hole about 20cms long rearwards into the fuselage and push in a carbon tube. Replace the rubber nose. I presume the models are so cheap as the nose will break off on the first flight. With the carbon tube they're bomb proof.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 12, 2019, 05:31:07 AM
Here is the new, much simplified extending line pole. As one line is inside the pole, the chance of tangles will hopefully be reduced.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 12, 2019, 09:13:24 PM
I have a part finished F16 in Balsa that I had intended to fly with 2 lines to a bell crank on the model. I'm still slowly pondering how to achieve it simply. These models were common in the early 50's and I have heard of them being flown on lines up to 25-30' or more. However these controlled versions needed both hands to fly and possibly someone else to launch the model.

Good luck with you experiments.

Is "Simple Flyer" still around? He was an interesting fellow and I enjoyed his posts.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: PB_guy on July 13, 2019, 01:03:47 AM
I'm sorry to say that SimpleFlyer (Albert Locker) passed away last year. See: https://www.stickandtissue.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1532979682 (https://www.stickandtissue.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1532979682)
ian


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 13, 2019, 09:19:56 AM
I have a part finished F16 in Balsa that I had intended to fly with 2 lines to a bell crank on the model. I'm still slowly pondering how to achieve it simply. These models were common in the early 50's and I have heard of them being flown on lines up to 25-30' or more. However these controlled versions needed both hands to fly and possibly someone else to launch the model.
I am obviously also slowly working towards elevator control. There are snippets of (old) information on the net on how to do it. I have attached (again) a photo of Jim Walker and a profile Bell X1 plan. However, I expect there will be a learning curve just like I'm experiencing with the single line stuff at the moment.  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 14, 2019, 04:39:25 AM
I'm sorry to hear that Ian. His gentleness came through in his posts.

sx Here is another plan from 1979 - A F15 eagle. I'm trying to come up with a simple means of operating with only one hand required.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Russ Lister on July 14, 2019, 05:18:07 AM
Sorry to hear about SimpleFlyer.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 15, 2019, 05:16:27 AM
I mentioned I was going to paint my X-18 and X-22 in camouflage with acrylic paint. I started in on the X-18 and, er, the paint attacked the foam surface. I thought that the models were the more sensitive styrofoam not EPP, but didn't realize that acrylic would attack it. Should have used poster paints, which I think are water based. I have binned the model and ordered a replacement. No great loss for €8.

The F15 Eagle article was new to me. Thanks!!

Regarding one handed operation of the elevator. Don't shoot me for this, but...……

I fly my electric control line models with a Car Tx controlling the throttle. Much better (and cheaper!!) than fancy vintage 3-line handles and bellcranks. So I guess it would be very easy to fit an small indoor Rx and micro servo in the plane and operate the elevator 'in the other hand' off a Car Pistol Grip Tx throttle lever. Cheap as chips from Hobby King & Co.

I did not personally know Simple Flyer, but it's always sad to hear that creative modellers have passed on.  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 15, 2019, 06:20:47 AM
Two little ones, just for fun. A Zyo-6 from Banggood and a Guillow's Rockstar from Ebay. I covered the Rockstar's wings with 1/32'' balsa instead of the transparent mylar foil provided.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 17, 2019, 12:57:52 AM
The replacement X-18 came. When I started to take the tether off the one I had tried to paint, I found that the paint peeled off like a sticker and underneath the model was perfect. What I thought was paint attack on the model, was paint attack of the second colour on the first!! After a couple of hours of patient peeling, I now have a second X-18. I also have a second X-22. I had bought it as a chuck glider for the grandchildren about 5 years ago, had totally forgotten about it, and rediscovered it in the cellar. I will use the second models for ballasting trials.  

I want to start going a bit bigger with the models. Not as much as the Lidl glider until I get that one sorted. I discovered the Revell Space Glider. I thought it was expensive at almost €19, but it is a great lump of a thing. Well worth the money. Although the span is only 525mm, it is 570mm long and weighs an impressive 97g.

I also got the Alpha Jet from Banggood as it was on offer at around €13. Not as hefty as the Space Glider, but good looking and bigger than the X-18 & X-22 at 470mm/67g. I will push in carbon tube reinforcements from the nose on both of them.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 20, 2019, 01:24:11 AM
Poor weather all day yesterday, so I converted the Space Glider and the Alpha Jet. I am really impressed by these models. They are the sort of size I would like to scratch build. I also ordered a Guillow's Sky Raider foamy. It's ugly, but has a span of 610mm (ca 24ins) which is just where I would like to be. 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 20, 2019, 08:02:49 AM
Test flights with my son in the park this morning. The simplified extending line rod is better, but it's still an issue with the length of line left at the handle end before paying out. Too easy to get tangles or have the line wrapped around your feet. Needs improving.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 21, 2019, 04:35:29 AM
I have added 30g of ballast to one of the X-22's. The unmodified one is now 46g and the ballasted one 77g. It's so easy with these foam models!! This will increase the flying speed by 30%. A good starting point and great to have the constant baseline of an unmodified model.
With the new pole yesterday, we were flying at a radius of 31 feet.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 21, 2019, 06:41:11 PM
31' is pretty good SX.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 23, 2019, 05:14:19 AM
Thanks. We are trying to move from the 'toy' category to 'serious kit' !! Looks pretty impressive at that radius.

I am also trying to do something about line tangles, snagging and getting caught around my feet. I have replaced the fishing line with what I would call 'Carpet Thread'. I found it at a flea market. The small guide tube (shown earlier) has been replaced with a thick washer which has well rounded edges. It's obvious that tight engineering tolerances are not the way to go.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 03, 2019, 01:54:11 PM
Finally got some decent weather. We are still on the learning curve. Today we flew the ballasted X-22 vs the standard one, the Lidl Glider, the Alpha Jet and the Space Glider. Lessons learned today :

The ballasted X-22 is better on long lines than the standard one.

The Alpha Jet flies well, but needs ballasting to improve penetration into the wind. I have added 40g at the CG.

On long lines, the big Lidl Glider flies well. Just needed a small CG correction.

Couldn't get the Space Glider to fly satisfactorily. Need to do some investigation to find out why.

The button thread is much better then fishing line.

The method of reeling out line is still not staisfactory, but definitely works better with thread than with fishing line. Still working on a solution.

The small meat skewers used as line guides are unsatisfactory. There is a small gap where the loop is formed and the line often comes out of the loop at the tip. I have wrapped them with thread where the gap is and coated it with white glue to solve this problem.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 04, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
I wonder if very thin Spectra type lines would work? These are sold as high strength fishing lines. They are very thin and would give less drag on the longer lengths. Also just as an idea - instead of paying the line out how about using a small rubber assisted launcher with the model at it's flying radius? These are used to launch small Electric Ducted Fan RC models and are foot controlled via a string from the pilot to a trigger.

Happy experimenting
John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 05, 2019, 08:41:53 AM
I wonder if very thin Spectra type lines would work? These are sold as high strength fishing lines. They are very thin and would give less drag on the longer lengths. Also just as an idea - instead of paying the line out how about using a small rubber assisted launcher with the model at it's flying radius? These are used to launch small Electric Ducted Fan RC models and are foot controlled via a string from the pilot to a trigger.

Happy experimenting
John
Thanks John!!

The big issue we have with fishing line is that it just loves to tangle. I have no experience with Spectra, I would like to see some first to check if it's  propensity to tangle is less than normal fishing line.

I have rebuilt my rod with the pulley system from fishing line to thread and we will check that out. I eliminated the top swivel which was only another source of line twisting with no advantages. I also ordered a cheap Chinese fishing reel to see if I can do anything with it. I have a third rod for it that I bought for little money at a local flea market. They are easy to come by!!

I have been doing some maths, particularly with regard to moving on to elevator control. I am now convinced I don't need a launcher - mechanical or human!!

Here goes :

I can hold my hand 7ft 6ins above the ground. If I use a light 12 ft pole, that takes the tip to around 19ft. Double that, less a bit so that the model doesn't touch the ground, is around 37ft. That's more than I need!!

I am also convinced that a line extension system for 2 lines (Elevator) wouldn't work. With a control line handle in my other hand I even gain about another 3 feet or so.  

That's what I intend to try out when I get that far.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 05, 2019, 12:20:51 PM
OK I found the error!!

Radius when the pole is horizontal =

12 feet (Pole)  + ca 2 feet (Arm) + 18 feet (Line) = 32 feet

Add 3 feet if a control line handle is used = 35 feet

Still OK!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 06, 2019, 01:19:07 AM
I found this superb looking pole on Ebay last night. 3m long (10 feet), basically a single length parallel tube with end caps. Brilliant, and under €10 new!! So I ordered it. The description curiously stated that it was suitable for 'Fried Fish'.

It will allow me to split the 'fleet' into two groups. This pole will be for the small, unballasted models (X-18, X-22, Pole Cat, Zyo-6, Guillows Rockstar...) and will just have a simple eye attachment at the end with no line length adjustment. The length of the line will be such that when the pole is held vertically with my arm also vertical, the model will be just off the ground. So it will be roughly a 10 foot pole with 16 feet of thread. Flying radius about 28 feet including arm length, if that's not too much for the smaller models.  

The bigger, heavier models will be for a pole with line length adjustment, whatever the final solution will be. Still working on that. Yesterday the Chinese fishing reel arrived and looks promising.
 
Note to John : Using a fishing reel will allow me to try out Spectra. Could be better than thread with a reel.

Then on to elevator control!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: oldgit on August 06, 2019, 04:53:40 AM
Please be aware that Spectra is what is called Braided line. It is supple and can when fishing tangle very badly. It also can cause very bad cuts to your fingers. I would be more inclined to use fluorocarbon line instead. In the thicker diameters it is very stiff. when used as rig hook links it is there because it does not tangle.

Roger


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 06, 2019, 05:49:16 AM
Thanks Roger. I checked eBay and it's not expensive. Any recommendations on thickness?


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 06, 2019, 08:19:19 AM
The cheap Chinese reel came and it looks incredibly promising. It's just a tad over 2 ins in diameter. I have limited the line length to give the 31 feet that I know works with the heavier models. I have loosened off the brake so that it turns freely in both directions and I can rub my finger either on the reel or the thread to slow down the letting out.

Looking forward to trying it out!!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 06, 2019, 08:41:22 PM
That should work well with a single line!

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 07, 2019, 02:56:59 AM
That should work well with a single line!

John

Thanks John. I think so too!!!

With this kind of reel you have to choose either left handed or right handed. I chose left handed as I am right handed (!) and prefer to hold the pole in that hand!

Here's a couple more photos :


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 07, 2019, 03:28:47 AM
I need some HELP, please !!!

I have been looking at ways to improve the setup for small, light models where the rod does not have a reel. I am rather baffled by what I read on the internet. Here in Germany there is :

First Photo : A 'Stipprute' which is telescopic, has a simple attachment ring at the tip and no guide rings. The sections are usually 115 cm long and the rods can be bought from 3m - 12m typically. The nearest English translation I have found is 'Telescopic Rod without rings'.

Second and Third Photo : A 'Kopfrute' which is similar, but has a rubber cord through the middle and the line comes out of the tip.
The nearest English translation I have found is 'Telescopic Rod without rings with the line guided through the centre of the rod'. Hmmm…...

Does anyone know any better English translations? On the 'Kopfrute', what is the function of the rubber cord? Is it just easier storage? Or limit the jerk when the fish bites? This is a fascinating looking device!!

I have ordered a new 3 metre pole described as a 'Stipprute', so I presume it will have the simple attachment ring (which is fine).  In any case, either of these devices would be a big improvement over the bamboo canes that Pole Flyers were using in the 1940's.

PS - It should be obvious that my knowledge of fishing and fishing rods is ZERO!!




 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 07, 2019, 03:48:09 AM
By the way……..

What the heck is the English translation of 'Stonfo' which every good 'Stipprute' needs!! Is it 'Tip Adapter' ???

My first French flea market rod had no rings and one of these (which I cut off). So I guess I had unknowingly bought a Stipprute with Stonfo!!

Zut alors!!

No, I'm not particularly interested in the French translation of Stipprute with Stonfo!!  :D



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: oldgit on August 07, 2019, 07:48:57 AM
It's not the thickness that counts, it the breaking strain. the last thing you want is a plane catapulted off when the line breaks.
I would test the breaking strain of the tread and buy flourocarbon rig line with a breaking strain at least equal to your test.

rig material is very stiff this is one example https://www.amazon.co.uk/Korda-Fluorocarbon-11-3kg-0-55mm-kboom55/dp/B01N5EYG59/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Korda+Boom+Fluorocarbon&qid=1565172773&s=gateway&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Korda-Fluorocarbon-11-3kg-0-55mm-kboom55/dp/B01N5EYG59/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Korda+Boom+Fluorocarbon&qid=1565172773&s=gateway&sr=8-1)
main line is more supple just googling fluorocarbon will give you lots to choose from. these tend to come on much larger spools.

the Stipprute photo shows a telescopic Roach Pole. these can be used to catch Carp (the name roach shows what they were originally designed to catch). the problem with this is they are very strong and can break the line. A way round the problem is to elasticate(add a rubber shock absorber) the line. this method is typically used with Kopfrute (second and third photo) style roach pole where the sections are either put in or put over joints.

the Kopfrute style roach pole can come with a selection of interchangable top 3 sections ready made up for you with different power elastic preloaded.
if buying the pole without the conversion you have to cut the top wire ring off and then glue the new hollow tip piece on the end. once set you tie the quick change line holder to one end of the rubber and tread the rest into the pole and secure it with the bung at the tension you require.
when you hook a fish this rubber extends out of the new top eye and cushions the power of the fish so that the line does not break .


as you might be able to guess my other hobby is fishing.

pic of self with a mirror Carp

Roger 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 07, 2019, 01:37:37 PM
Roger

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me so precisely!! I read on a German website that the elastic shock cord was an English invention. Yeaahhh!! But, obviously, it has no place in Whip Control.

The simple 3-segment 3 metre Roach Pole/Stipprute came today and it has a small ring on the tip. I lashed on a swivel. Beautiful quality for under €10 and just the simple solution I need for small, light models. I chose the line length so that the model would not touch the ground with the arm and pole held vertically (no helper needed to launch). From the bottom of the pole to the end of the line it turned out at about 26 feet. That'll do.

I have some weight lifting weights to hold down parts being glued etc, so I used them for an improvised thread strength test. The thread held at 8.5 Kg, but broke at 10 Kg. The force to lift the thread against the weights was waaaaaay above the pull on the line when flying. The heaviest model I am flying at the moment is under 200g. What G-force should I take, 3 at the most including a safety factor. So that's still under 1 Kg !! I'll check out the Amazon site. Thanks for the recommendation!!

That's a wonderful Carp you have there!!   


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 14, 2019, 01:32:40 PM
I tried out the last two rods shown and it was the breakthrough I was hoping for. Great stuff, everything worked brilliantly!!

As there is little detailed information around, here is what is working for me :

Fixed Length Pole and Thread.
3-section composite, no rings :

Pole length : 9ft 1ins
Thread length : 15ft 0ins
Total length : 24ft 1ins

Model tested : X-22 foamie. Unballasted. 310mm span / 46g weight

There is a swivel about 4ins away from the thread tether hook on the pole. If you get giddy, you can stand still and keep whipping the model.

Pole with Thread on mini Chinese Fishing Reel.
6-section composite. Was 7-section, but I removed the very thin top section. Number of rings reduced to 3.

Pole length : 10ft 6ins
Thread length beyond tip of pole with reel fully wound out : 20ft 9ins
Total length : 31ft 3ins

Model tested : Alpha Jet. Ballasted. 470mm span / 67g weight

I am sure there is a lot of stretch in these numbers, but this is what is currently working well. Both of these poles work without the need of anyone helping!

I am now moving on to a two line system with a model that has Elevator Control. I have started to build the model. More info to come as it becomes available.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 14, 2019, 04:00:45 PM
Sorry. The ballasted Alpha Jet weighs 130g. I basically doubled its weight from 67g.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 15, 2019, 03:04:25 AM
Good news SX. How much slack or bow do you notice in the lines?

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 15, 2019, 03:20:02 AM
I hope to fly again tomorrow. If I can photograph it, I will. In any case I'll take note and let you know.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 15, 2019, 03:29:35 AM
Thanks SX.
John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 16, 2019, 02:27:03 AM
Here's a bit of self motivation……… the current progress on my Elevator Control model.

I chose the Brewster Bermuda for the following reasons :

- Long nose

- Mid wing so that the bellcrank is underneath the wing, not on top (ugly!!)

- Deep fuselage for strength

- It's not a Spitfire, P-51, Me 109, Corsair...……..

I am using some incredibly heavy balsa from my scrap box. It's a good way to get rid of it. I usually build very light indoor RC models.

The span is 18 ins.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 16, 2019, 03:54:03 PM
Good news SX. How much slack or bow do you notice in the lines?

John
Pretty rotten photos, but it's hard flying and taking a photo at the same time!!

The X-22 was the unballasted one flying on the fixed length pole. The pole still has the flexible tip (the bend is clearly visible), but the line has hardly any bow to it.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 16, 2019, 03:55:50 PM
The Alpha Jet is ballasted and flying on the pole with the mini reel. As the top segment was removed, the bend in the rod is significantly less than in the fixed length rod. The line also has hardly any bow to it.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 16, 2019, 04:17:12 PM
I took a photo of the test fleet before starting. The black Revell Space Glider has proved impossible to trim, suffered damage as a result and will be disposed of.

The tiny Guillows Rockstar and the Zyro-6 are only suitable for indoors and I will not be building models this small again.

The Eagle is a good flyer, but I will have to fit a carbon rod reinforcement after he broke his beak in a landing!

The white Guillows Sky Raider shows promise, but would benefit from ballasting as it is very light. I intend to paint is as one of those Geman paper project jet bombers from the end of the war.

The absolute stars are the grey foamie X-18's and X-22's which fly really well in both ballasted and unballasted version. At only €8 they are a perfect starting point for anyone wanting to build a Whip Control model. Just don't forget the reinforcing carbon rod inserted through the nose.

The Lidl Glider, C-17 Transport, Pole Cat and Alpha Jet all fly well.

The yellow Piper Cub bobbles about in the wind as it only has a fuselage tether. I'll probably add a tip guide, but it may break the fragile wings.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 17, 2019, 05:36:43 AM
Thanks for the photos SX. I have a cheap rod and reel for a F16 (balsa profile) that I was going to fly with elevator control with dual lines. The top ring on the rod will need to be divided to keep the lines separate.

You have stirred my interest again - I may even get to finish the beast.

Cheers
John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 17, 2019, 12:39:10 PM
Thanks for the photos SX. I have a cheap rod and reel for a F16 (balsa profile) that I was going to fly with elevator control with dual lines. The top ring on the rod will need to be divided to keep the lines separate.

You have stirred my interest again - I may even get to finish the beast.

Cheers
John
Good to hear!!!

I think that usually both lines are routed through the same ring, but there's no reason why you shouldn't try try splitting them. I have no practical experience (yet).

When I get the Bermuda finished, I will fly it first on a single line to get the CG in the right place before trying to fly it on elevator. Maybe attach temporary lines to the bellcrank which are tied together beyond the line guide and then attach these to the single line? I need to try out various possibilities on the workbench.

I have also just invested in a brand new 6 metre carbon rod without rings. I had some Pay Pal credit, so the decision was easy. Only €24,99 as there are irregularities in the paint scheme (and I don't care a bit!!). Being carbon, at 360g it is as light as my shorter fibreglass rods. I want to find the biggest radius I can fly at with a fixed length line rod. As it is in sections, I can easily remove segments if I have gone too far -  which is probably the case. 

Re single line models. I have been trimming them using lead weights. I am now getting down to fine tuning and find that adjustable elevators are very useful. The elevators on my Pole Cat can be adjusted and it was much easier than using tiny bits of lead. In the future I will build all single line models with adjustable elevators (basically tin plate hinges or the like). Maybe upgrade a few of the old ones too.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 18, 2019, 06:16:57 AM
Outerzone has just published a profile F-105 Thunderchief that looks ideal for Whip Control!!

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11448


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 19, 2019, 02:07:24 PM
Here are the learnings from today's flying :

I realized that the Revell Space Glider could not be trimmed as the effective tailplane area on the V-tail was tiny. So I added a tailplane. I didn't spend time making it look pretty, I just wanted the results first. The flight was brilliant - very stable. Then it did its usual trick of landing right wing low and tore off the outer portion of the RH wing. Again. It's definitely going in the bin now.

Despite early promise, I had big problems with the metal Chinese mini reel. The thread kept slipping off down the side of the reel and jamming up. I had brought a rod with me I had temporarily converted to pole flying with a spinning reel. It worked brilliantly!! The reel is a bit large in size. I think there are smaller ones on the market.

THE SENSATION :  Just before leaving for the field, the 6 metre ringless carbon rod I had ordered, arrived. At the field I put on 6 metres of thread and a hook and attached it to my indestructable Lidl Glider (AUW just over 200 grams). It worked!! Needs a bit of technique (like starting with the hand half way up the rod), but it definitely works. We're up to a 40 feet radius now!!

Chris P

 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 19, 2019, 08:57:45 PM
40' - that's getting impressive!. My first CL model only flew on 35' (from memory) with it's 1cc ED Bee motor.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 23, 2019, 01:59:53 AM
I splashed out not too much money on a mini spinning reel from Amazon. It's just amazing how inexpensive these are when you see the quality. The temporary setup I used to try out a spinning reel looked and felt like it was suitable for catching Jaws. I'm now trying to lighten things up - both for the fixed line length pole and the variable line length pole. I used the first ringless pole I bought at a French flea market and had already used to tried out a couple of not too successful line lengthening ideas.

The pole with the standard size reel weighs 730g and this one 235g. A big improvement. I have a total length from handle to hook of 31 feet and I'm looking forward to trying it out. The reel would probably take a little more line, but not much.

PS - The reel is not just lashed on with the electrical tape, that's there just to cover things up a bit!

Chris P  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 23, 2019, 02:26:26 AM
A bit of self motivation here. This is what I am aiming for - a 30 ins span Avro Lincoln, my favourite aircraft.

I am working on the plan, basing the construction on the Towner control line Lancaster. I printed out the plan from Outerzone at 50% for guidance.

A way down the road yet, but I'll get it done. Attached is a picture of Lincoln RA711 which was on the fire dump at RAF Lindholme in the early 60's and became 'our' Lincoln (showing one of my friends in the cockpit). Amazing how lax security was in those days. At the weekend the airfield was almost deserted.

Now back to working on the Brewster Bermuda.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 27, 2019, 03:00:50 AM
A big Thank You to Ellen for taking these photos!!

Trying out the new mini spinning reel. It worked pretty well. I had one line tangle at the reel, but as the reel can be taken off, the tangle can easily be fixed. I think the tangle happened when reeling in. Just have to make sure that the model always acts as drag on the line, I think.

Chris P

PS - The first two photos were taken during letting out the line and not at full line length!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on August 31, 2019, 02:50:13 AM
It seems to be flying quite well Chris. The last pic is a nice shot.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 04, 2019, 08:58:47 AM
To my surprise, another couple of long forgotten models sufaced in the cellar. Both circa 2005, I think, still in their original boxes and unflown

The LeO 451 scale French bomber was from 'Air Ace'. It had two geared motors. I pulled the pinions off the motors and let the props freewheel on the gearbox shafts. I converted it to Whip Control and flew it for the first time today in a sports hall. It flew well!! The freewheeling props made a sort of growling noise, which was super.

I also flew the tiny Guillows Rockstar and Zyo-6 in the hall. They flew well, much better than when I tried to fly them outside.

I also discovered a Silverlit Boeing 737. I removed the motors and fan blades and will finish the conversion to Whip Control when I have a few minutes. It's quite a big, chunky model which should fly well.

The Revell Aqua Color paints that I ordered finally arrived. I am going to paint the Guillows Sky Raider foam glider with them to look like a late WWII German paper project jet.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 07, 2019, 02:27:49 PM
Here are photos of the Guillows Sky Raider turned into a ficticious German WWII jet bomber. I could have spent a lot more time on detailing, but there are other projects in the queue.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 08, 2019, 04:03:08 AM
Here's the conversion of the Silverlit Boeing 737. It only took about 20 minutes. The former battery compartment will be perfect for ballasting the model.

Span 510mm, Weight 97g without any ballast.

I'm hoping to fly the FGJ (Fictitious German Jet) and the 737 indoors in our sports hall on Wednesday.

I think that if anyone wanted to try out Whip Control for themselves, a foam model of around 350 - 500mm span would be a low effort way to start and gain some experience.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 10, 2019, 07:50:55 AM
I was able to get back to working on my Brewster Bermuda - my first model with elevator control. Tail surfaces done and panel lines inked in.

The next step is to fit the bellcrank etc and set up a fishing pole for elevator control.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 11, 2019, 06:37:56 AM
Flew the Boeing and the Fake German Jet in our hall this morning. The Boeing 737 flies perfectly. The FGJ flies strongly right wing low. Curious, as it flew well be before I painted it. I think the reason could be that I flew it before outdoors on longer lines.
I also took my unballasted X-18. This really is a fabulous model. Ballasted for outdoors, unballasted for indoors. If you're thinking of trying this out, this model is perfect!! But please don't forget to reinforce the nose (see above).

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on September 12, 2019, 07:26:50 AM
You're doing well Chris. How do you intend to handle the 2 lines at the rod?

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 14, 2019, 07:16:06 AM
Thank you for the encouragement John!!

I am going to use my first telescopic rod which has just one ring at the tip. I have a 1/2A plastic control line handle from the 'Cox era'. Both lines (thread) from the handle up through the single ring to the plane. I intend to do a two ring tip guide just forward of the wing LE like in the photo. Lightweight Laystrate lines to a bellcrank located well forward on the wing.

Might find some time tomorrow to start the additions to the model.

'Historic data' below.

Obviously a fixed line length, not extendable!

Chris P 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 15, 2019, 11:36:33 AM
Here's one just to keep the motivation going after a pleasant Sunday afternoon's modelling :

- Bellcrank Mount made and installed

- Bellcrank and Tip Guide designed and made. I had some Paxolin and Aluminium Bellcranks from the 60's, but they weren't the right size.

- Tip Guide installed.

Now on to : Leadouts, Push Rod and Elevator Horn.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on September 15, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
Hi sx976,   Thanks for the pics.  I especially like your flying pic #3 in Reply #131 above  8)   :o   .   Keep 'em flyin' !!

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 15, 2019, 01:30:57 PM
Thanks Richard!

I pulled these 'historic photos' off   http://www.americanjuniorclassics.com/WhipPower/whipower.htm

To be clear, they're not me!! I've scoured the internet to try and get some hints on how to do Whip Control. I'm trying to log my experiences here, good and bad, as there's not much hard data out there. Also we now have the advantage of things like carbon fibre poles, small low cost fishing reels and some excellent foam models.

Chris P 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on September 15, 2019, 06:52:35 PM
You are well on the way there Chris! I remember seeing those sites some time back and what always struck me as a little strange was that they held the handle in their left hands and the rod or whip in the other. I've always felt that I would prefer to do it the other way around - ie handle in the right hand for better control.

It looks like you were an active control line flyer at one point. I flew sports models for a couple of years.

happy flying.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 17, 2019, 03:47:54 AM
I have been wondering too about which hand to use to hold what. I guess it will come naturally without thinking when I try it out. My son is left handed, so I'm interested to see what he does!

I have built 4 electric CL models over the past few years and still have 4 or 5 glow powered models. I have also been building a Ron Moulton Voetsak powered by an O&R 60 petrol engine on and off for the last year, but have found it hard to keep motivated. Not like me at all.

I belong to a very good club with a fantastic flying field and have flown CL there, but I feel a bit awkward basically blocking the field for myself when people want to fly RC. Especially with the time it takes to reel out and reel in the lines etc.

This was one reason I decided to try whip control. I have flown a lot in the local park and had no complaints. I have also flown on the large grass car park area at our club when people have been flying RC on the field. Also no issues. And recently I have been flying the smaller models in our indoor flying sports hall.

Finally, I love scale models and whip control gives me an easy way to do an Avro Lincoln and Shackleton, which I have wanted to do for years. That's why I started with the easy models to gain experience and find out what works before tackling ancient 4-engined bombers!! One of the best learnings in this respect was to definitely fit freewheeling props. The French LeO 451 makes a fabulous growling sound when flying.

As a side note : the RAAF had the fabulous long nose Lincoln MR Mk 31 in shiny natural metal. Unfortunately I never got to see one.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 17, 2019, 11:47:47 AM
Well the Bermuda's just about done and I'm happy with the result. As everything came out of the scrap box, it cost me absolutely nothing!!

All that is left to do now, is to ballast the nose to get the CG in the right place. I'm using car wheel balancing weights that I got from Amazon. They are good value and perfect for the job. I chose the iron ones rather than the lead ones as they are thinner (and cheaper).
  
I'll do the usual drawing exercise to find the Mean Aerodynamic Chord and set the CG at 15% to start with. The model weighs 98g at the moment, I'll publish the final weight when I get it done.

I took extra care to make the leadouts exactly the same length. I will use a single line pole with the hook through both leadouts to immobilise the elevator and do the basic flight trimming before I move on to two lines with a control handle.

After that it's either move on to something aerobatic with elevator control, or kick off my scale Avro Lincoln project. Off to Crete soon for a couple of weeks R&R. Good Greek wine, sunshine and relaxation should help with the decision making process.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on September 18, 2019, 05:10:12 AM
Looks neat and tidy Chris. It should go well. Don't overdo the relaxing! :)

Have fun.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 18, 2019, 06:39:31 AM
Last night I started putting on lead weights to get the CG to 15% MAC. After 50g I gave up with the CG at more like 20%.

This morning I took the Bermuda with me to the sports hall. Nobody else there, just me! Cool.

The first flight showed the model to be very nose heavy and right wing low. I removed the 5g weight on the RH wing tip, which made next to no difference. I then started to remove the nose weights piece by piece and reached the point where from the original 50g, only 20g was left. Now the model was flying nicely and climbing gently when whipping harder. Interestingly it was now no longer flying right wing low.

The tyre weights have an adhesive rubber backing. I coat the surface of the model under the weights with epoxy. The advantage of leaving on the rubber backing is that it can be peeled off from the model if you remove a weight.

When I got home I checked where the new CG was located. I could hardly believe that it was at 64% MAC!! I had moved the CG back a whopping 39mm. I have no idea why it wants to fly with such a rearward CG, but if that what it takes, so be it.

I then started playing with the leadout exit holes on the tip guide figuring that if the CG had moved rearwards then the leadouts should exit more rearwards. All was going well until I moved the leadouts to the rearmost holes. When whipping hard the model dived quite violently and whacked into the ground. Fortunately no damage at all.

I finished up with the arrangement shown in the photo. It means that the leadout run to the tip guide is now quite straight rather than angled forward. The lesson learned here is that it is well worth the extra 2 minutes drilling a row of holes in the tip guide. And also, of course, it is well worth trimming the model first on a single line.

Hoping to get some flights with 2 lines and a handle before the holiday. We'll see.

Chris P

Model now weighs 114g. Span 464mm.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 19, 2019, 07:13:34 AM
On this YouTube Video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o36mzKH4WVs

there is the only example of a 'bespoke' pole for whip control models with elevator control that I have ever come across. Appears to be single handed operation too!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 19, 2019, 04:48:41 PM
Here's a screenshot of it. Not 100% sure yet how it works. My assumption at the moment is that only the down line moves and is attached to the hole in the arm on the left. The metal fitting on the right is the up and down stop. The notch next to it is for the forefinger. The up line is stationary and is fixed to the ring that is visible on the left side of the handle.

Any better ideas??

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 20, 2019, 01:23:14 AM
At the very least I got my explanation back to front. The finger notch (if that's what it is) must be on the up line. The down line ought to be fixed so that the centrifugal force provides the opposite force to the finger.

The video seems to show the top part of the lever angled fully forward ('up' if the finger notch is underneath?) and I can't see the pilot doing anything with the lever. Whether the model is climbing and diving due to elevator control or just whipping, no idea.

And I just can't understand how the pole can be held such that the finger is able to operate the lever.

This one's a mystery to me!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: PB_guy on September 20, 2019, 02:48:59 AM
It seems to me that if you had a spring or an elastic attached to hold tension, you would just adjust your finger pressure for up/down control.
ian


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: billdennis747 on September 20, 2019, 03:22:17 AM
As a side note : the RAAF had the fabulous long nose Lincoln MR Mk 31 in shiny natural metal. Unfortunately I never got to see one.
This one? At 40 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV_HcHIP5gE


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 22, 2019, 04:31:29 AM
It seems to me that if you had a spring or an elastic attached to hold tension, you would just adjust your finger pressure for up/down control.
ian

When I tried out the idea with a couple of rulers, I couldn't find a way to hold the pole and operate the lever at the same time.

I think the deisgn harks back to the earliest Jim Walker design (attachment) which is shown as two handed. I think my assumption that the design was single handed, based solely on the finger notch (?) in the lever, was incorrect.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 22, 2019, 04:39:33 AM
As a side note : the RAAF had the fabulous long nose Lincoln MR Mk 31 in shiny natural metal. Unfortunately I never got to see one.
This one? At 40 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV_HcHIP5gE
No that's a Lincoln Mk 30. The Mk 31 had a 6ft 6ins 'plug' added in front of the cockpit. Evidently it was extremely hard to land at night due to the obscuration caused by the longer nose.

Chris P  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on September 22, 2019, 02:18:29 PM
Had a wonderful Sunday afternoon at the club field. My wife had prepared a picnic and I took most of the Whip Control fleet. Lovely weather too.

I flew the 'Fake German Jet' and it flew much better on long lines than in the hall. Not so right wing low either, but I will try it again with 10g on the port wing.

The ballasted models fly better outdoors than in the hall, and vice versa. As flying in the hall will be more of a temporary thing for me, I think I will start ballasting some of the unballasted models. 20g, 30g or so to start.

The 'main event' was the first flight of the Bermuda with elevator control. Again I was shown that this business is not as easy as it looks. The model was incredibly sensitive on the handle. The throws were not excessive either - maybe +/- 30 degrees. In fact, the model was unflyable. I have a feeling it is more to do with the centre of gravity than the elevator throws. The next time I will start putting nose weight back on.

I broke the solid tip section of the long carbon rod. I was pulling the model on the ground at right angles to the rod and it snapped. My fault I guess.

I did some flying with the green mini spinning reel. Brilliant!! If you reel in the line while letting the model drag on the ground, there are are no problems with the line coming off the reel and jamming.

KBO as Winston Churchill used to write on his letters!!

Chris P      


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on February 05, 2020, 07:23:37 AM
Due to the cold and windy winter weather, it's not been possible to find out how to get the 2 line Brewster Bermuda flying properly. I always thought there was a better way, so I built a single line P-47 with elevator control. The P-47 was a reasonably low cost Chinese foam model kit. 27'' span and flying weight 12ozs or so. I repainted it in RAF markings.

The elevator is controlled by a pistol grip (car) transmitter with a receiver, battery and servo in the model. I also removed the magnets from an old Speed 400 motor and use it as a high quality bearing unit for a free-wheeling prop. This works superbly!!

I have only flown the model for a minute or two in an unpainted state on a ghastly day to confirm the CG (avoids hacking the model after it's painted).

Just waiting now for the weather to improve and, in particular, the sodden ground to dry out.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on February 05, 2020, 10:15:12 PM
Chris that looks interesting - single line control line with RC elevator ( and throttle control). I remember a English modeller using RC for elevator control on a 60 powered model. The modified control line handle had a pot sensing the line position (up/down) relative to the handle and this was fed as a RC signal to the model. He said it worked well and the model was quite fast on the single line.

Good to see you back in action.

happy flying.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on February 06, 2020, 08:55:50 AM
Thanks John!.

I'm planning to fly my Whip Control models at the Old Warden 'Mayfly' model meet (Shuttleworth Collection UK) the weekend of May 9th & 10th. We will be driving over to England especially for it. The event is sort of themed on the past, nostalgic side of aeromodelling, so these models should fit in well. We will also be taking our 2 week annual vacation in June in northern France where the Kite Festival takes place at Bray Dunes on the beach. I will be taking the models and declaring them as kites!! Fortunately two of my models are French, the LeO 451 and the Alpha Jet!!

The next model is underway. It's a FW 190 from the same series as the P-47. I intend to paint it in the colour scheme of a FW 190 captured by the RAF. Basically the same scheme as the P-47, but with a yellow underside.

I think that sometime I will have to try out retracts.

Onwards and upwards!!

Chris P  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on February 06, 2020, 08:51:08 PM
Sounds like a fun event. Old Warden has a magic appeal! I'll be getting in as much RC glider flying as I can(F5J) and also some FF. I hope to go to a major model event in July - FF, Cl and RC.

Have fun
John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on February 07, 2020, 02:57:07 AM
The magic that is Old Warden !!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on February 08, 2020, 05:39:59 AM
What year was that Chris?

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on February 09, 2020, 02:32:02 AM
2016. I also flew in the Ebenezer competition. That's my Electric FF Hawker Hector at the back on the right.

We usually make the effort. We missed last year as my son's girlfriend had her 50th birthday that weekend. The 'zero' birthdays are a big thing in Germany.

It's a longish journey, but Old Warden is well worth it. 600 kms to Dunkirk and over on the ferry to Dover. Then up to a motel near Old Warden. We used to stay in Baldock but this year we're trying Letchworth.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on February 09, 2020, 08:04:11 PM
They would be a good crowd from what I have read. I guess you lost to Dastardly in the centre of the front row. Chris writes here on HPA as Squirrelnet.

I have visited Germany a couple of times - 1987 with a Australian World Champs F3B team. It was in Achmer, but my friend and I had a 3 months holiday and also went through England, Scotland and Ireland.

Cheers
John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on February 28, 2020, 02:28:37 AM
The re-painting of the FW 190 to the captured RAF colour scheme was put on the back burner for 2 weeks due to a vacation to get away from the awful weather. I'm basically showing a progress shot to give myself a bit of motivation as it seems to take ages to do this kind of stuff. My latest technique is to 'paint' the model in a few coats of PVA glue to seal the surface, and then use paints from the Tamiya XF acrylic series. They seem to be easier to use than other brands, but are harder to track down here in Germany.

I intend to fit RC Elevator on this one as well.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on February 28, 2020, 02:37:14 AM
As is often the case, I have sidetracked myself again. From the back of the cellar, 3 HQ Airgliders resurfaced. I had bought them some years back, but was extremely disappointed with the way they flew. As they are very 'kite-like', the idea is to convert them to Whip Control and fly them at the Kite Festival we visit in Northern France in June. The conversion should be very easy.

Tomorrow my flying buddy Harald & I are driving down to the model flea market at Lampertheim (in the direction of Mannheim). We go every year and for me it always symbolizes the start of the model flying season. There are a lot of dealers there too selling new stuff, so I might find something interesting (i.e. more sidetracks).

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on February 29, 2020, 07:59:14 PM
The FW is coming on well Chris. Do the coats of PVA add much weight and how much do you thin it for painting?

Colourful little distractions!

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on March 05, 2020, 06:22:17 AM
I've not weighed the model before and after PVA coating because all my models are ballasted anyway. So sorry, I can't say except that you can tell that the model has become heavier.

I've had a slight issue regarding the PVA coating on the FW190 (which is coming along fine and will soon be finished). I realized I had unintentionally switched to regular PVA rather than the water resistant version and the water based acrylic paint has a tendency to cause the PVA skin to 'pick up' if you brush too hard. On previous models I used water resistant Titebond II without any problems. There are styrofoam safe primers for acrylic on the market, but PVA is much cheaper.

I take the top off the glue bottle and squirt a dollop into a margarine container. Then just a little water - maybe 10% at the most. It's not critical. I use a 'disposable' 25mm foam brush (which, of course, I wash out and keep!).

I test glided the HQ Airgliders in our sports hall (the weather's still unpleasant) and adjusted the trim where necessary. It's hard to add a tether point due to the kite-like construction, so I have gone for triangulated strings leading to an attachment ring. The blue & yellow model which had a propeller is currently getting a glider nose full of lead. I'll post some photos when they are done.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on March 11, 2020, 09:05:02 AM
I took the 3 HQ Airgliders to our indoor flying this morning to trim them out on the line. My triangulated strings didn't work at all, with all 3 models flying with the model crabbing outboard and right wing low. After lots of experimenting with the tether on just one model, I used the solution for the other two. The models now fly superbly. Much slower than my other ones and very majestic. Attached photos of the modification of the rubber powered one to a glider. 

The FW 190 with RC Elevator is finished and I am very happy with it. Photos to follow when the skies clear up a bit and the wind subsides.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on March 15, 2020, 07:15:43 AM
Here are some photos of the finished FW 190. Painted as a captured aircraft of RAF 1426 Flight (the so-called Rafwaffe!).

I am currently building another kit which surfaced in the cellar after 7 years (!) - a cartoon scale Dornier Delphin II flying boat made of very resilent EPP. I will use it as a Knock-About model at Old Warden for anyone who wants to try Whip Control. No RC Elevator. Should be finished in a couple of days.

Chris P



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on March 15, 2020, 10:41:07 PM
That's a very nice paint job Chris - particularly over foam. How well does the paint hang on? It would make a very nice RC model as well.
Hope it flies as well as it looks.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on March 16, 2020, 05:45:06 AM
Thank you! The model came painted in German camouflage, so it was basically 'primed'. The painting with white glue gives a good base, so the new paint job is fine.


The model is, of course, intended for RC. One of the fun bits is getting rid of the depressions for the aileron servos and horns! It is much smaller internally than the P-47, but I guess that was also the case with the real aircraft.

This is the first time I have been totally prepared on time for Old Warden, so my concern now is that it will be cancelled due to Coronavirus. Isn't that always the way?! I was also supposed to be flying to Wisconsin in April to see my daughter, but that looks very shaky too.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on March 16, 2020, 08:50:09 PM
Well hopefully you have a bit of luck there but I'm afraid I would not be holding my breath my breath.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on March 18, 2020, 06:33:30 AM
This is the Cartoon Scale Dornier Delphin II. I bought it at a modelling show 7 years ago, but it wandered to the back of the cellar. I paid only €29 for the kit which was on sale from what I would call a 'cottage industry manufacturer'. The model has a span of 790mm and a flying weight of 286g of which 80g are for balancing. I took the magnets out of an old outrunner for the freewheeling prop and used them to attach the bottom of the fuselage! Waste not, want not!

No RC as it's intended as a knock-about model. I added a clevis adjustment to the elevator for easy trimming. Unfortunately I can't go up to our modelling field to try it out as it's off limits due to the Corona virus. Still, if I do get confined indoors, I have a cellar full of unmade kits to keep me occupied!

Take care everyone.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on March 18, 2020, 07:44:12 PM
Very colourful Chris. A shame about access to the flying field but safe is best. Best of health to you and your family as well Chris.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on April 08, 2020, 02:49:48 AM
This was my first 'Corona Lockdown' project. It's a P-40 white foam model from 'Flyfly' at AliExpress. Span 550mm, finished weight 166g with 15g ballast to correct the CG. The kit was missing the tail surfaces. AliExpress refunded my money, but I didn't have the heart to bin it, so I made new ones from balsa.

Spinning prop, but no RC for the elevator. Painted in RAF 112 Squadron markings. I found the Shark Mouth picture on the web and printed it out with Powerpoint.

The underside of the wing, unfortunately, had a total of 9 holes for servos, cables etc which required filling with balsa. It was a bit of a nightmare sanding the blocks without roughing up the EPP surface. The previous models were made of Styrofoam, but this one is EPP. I knew I had a tin of Multiplex EPP primer I had bought years ago. Amazingly I found it still in its original packing. When I opened the tin, it was compeletelly empty as the contents had evaporated! I checked on the web and found that nitro dope thinners worked just as well to 'degrease' the surface, and a check showed that it does.

I sprayed the model with a water based acrylic primer, which gave an excellent base for the paint. Unfortunately I later discovered that the most gentle of masking tape would remove the paint under it. This was fixed to by spraying the model in a water base clear matt acrylic.

Flying at our field is still banned due to the virus lockdown, so I will have to wait before I can fly it.

Chris P

PS : The pilot is the same one as in my P-47 and FW 190. He is affectionately known as 'Winkle' after Eric 'Winkle' Brown. Eric Brown flew a total of almost 500 aircraft, including the test flights of captured enemy aircraft. He definitely flew a P-40, P-47 and FW 190, so this is my very small way of honouring this amazing man.
 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on April 08, 2020, 04:47:03 AM
You make painting foam look easy Chris. Thanks for all that info.

When you need to sand next to an area that you wish to leave undamaged - one approach is to mask off the area with masking tape and run the sanding block only on the masking tape. I also generally have a layer of masking tape on the block where it will be running on the adjacent structure.

I use this when repairing dings in my Catapult launch glider wings. The oversized balsa section is quickly sanded down to match the adjacent wing easily using this approach.

I'm also a fan of Eric Winkle brown - possibly the greatest Test pilot of the 20th century.

July is the earliest optimistic chance to fly here Chris and I'm not holding my breath.

Take care.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on April 08, 2020, 05:25:59 AM
Thanks John!!

This is what I have finished up using. For foam I find Tamiya Acrylic Matt easier to use than Revell or Humbrol. The primer from Rayher and matt varnish from Marabu are of superb quality, but probably only easily sourced in Europe. I am always frustrated when our American colleagues enthuse over Krylon, which is unavailable here. The yellow paper masking tape from AliExpress also gets a big thumbs up. It made masking of the canopy framing very easy.

If you check the 3rd photo above, you will see the copious amount of masking tape I used to protect the foam! I still had a couple of small roughed up areas though. I rubbed in 5 Minute epoxy thinly and lightly sanded as a repair.

Old Warden Mayfly 2020 has been cancelled. Unfortunate, but understandable. I should currently be in Wisconsin visiting my daughter, but that was cancelled too. We are hoping that our 2 weeks in June in France will still happen. Fingers crossed.

Take care and stay healthy

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on April 09, 2020, 09:06:53 PM
Thanks for that Chris. That info has been filed.

That was a bit dumb of me - I missed all the tape in your photo! I use a lot of masking tape - normal and low tac varieties - every thing from holding sandpaper on blocks, masking for sanding (even for paint  :)) to retaining the wing tips on a Inside F5J glider!(low tac for that). A very understated tool in modelling!

Cheers and take care.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on April 11, 2020, 07:03:14 AM
I think I need a bit of a rest from the foam flyers. My son is a huge fan of team racing. In his teens we used to drive up to Bochum to watch the supermen of team racing such as the Metkemeijer brothers. Great memories!! I'm tempted to do a Whip Control Team Racer for him. I'm rather taken by the F2C class and have downloaded this plan. A search this morning revealed enough balsa available to build it 'for free'. There isn't enough room to fit a 'vandalised' Speed 400 for the freewheeling prop, so I sketched out a design for a 3mm shaft within a brass tube using flanged ball bearings and a spinner prop nut. It looks pretty good! I'm unsure about the CG (and therefore the tether point), so it would mean a simple 'scale' chuck glider to establish it.

Chris P  



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on April 11, 2020, 09:27:40 AM
That's not a bad idea Chris!

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 08, 2020, 03:08:13 AM
Here are a couple of progress pictures of the F2C whip model basically for mid-project motivation. Our flying field is closed for flying (due to the virus), but not closed as such. So I spent a happy hour up there sanding the wing in glorious sunshine. Nobody will complain about balsa dust on the grass! I hope to get up there today to sand the fuselage blocks.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 10, 2020, 01:19:07 AM
After the second sanding session at the flying field, the model is really taking shape. I'm very pleased with the results so far.

Next steps fitting the undercarriage and tether hook

My daughter owns a 'Cricut' machine. She thinks it's possible to do the red letters with black shading as shown on the F2C plan. That would be cool!  

Chris P

PS re the use of Tamiya paint : I have just done a Pinewood Derby car for my grandson. He wanted it in Army camouflage! I discovered that a tiny splash of water in the paint makes it even easier to use.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 10, 2020, 08:53:11 PM
That's looking pretty neat Chris. It would look something with the original colours and lettering. Perhaps it's too good for a Swing model. :)

Stay safe - have fun.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 12, 2020, 02:17:12 AM
Yes, I'm going to do it very similar to the original. Red fuselage and wing tips, clear doped wing and the red letters with shadowing if my daughter can make them on her Cricut.

My son asked if it was possible to put a motor in it!! Too good for whip control, he said.

I realized that the bearing tube for the prop I had designed was nothing other than a shaft and tube assembly for a model boat!! So I have ordered one.

Next job, the cowl.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 14, 2020, 01:38:45 AM
This is the new idea for a spinning prop using a model boat propshaft as a bearing. I am very pleased with the result.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 16, 2020, 03:14:38 AM
Yippeeee!!! The field is open to flying again so we took a picnic, the 3 HQ Airgliders and the Dornier Delphin.

The HQ Airgliders had been trimmed in our sports hall, so there were no big surprises. Maybe a touch too 'floaty' for outdoors. I will do some ballasting experiments the next time.

The Dornier Delphin was tail heavy. I had set the CG at 30%, but that was too far rearwards. I taped on 35g of solder until it flew properly. When I got home I replaced it with lead weights inset into the underside of the float.

I learned an important lesson with this model. In the original 1967 article, Michael Payne stated that the limit for comfortable flying was 12ozs (340g). The Delphin weighs 325g and I can confirm that it's definitely getting close to the limit of comfortable flying. If you look at the photo of Jonathan flying it, it's plain to see that he is putting real effort into flying it. I have one heavier model, the P-47, which weighs 348g and hasn't flown yet. The lesson learned is that using up a couple of larger kits that have been slumbering in the cellar for Whip Control will no longer happen.

Chris P   


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 16, 2020, 04:34:02 AM
Nice photos Chris. The HQ Airgliders look very sharp against the blue sky! That is an interesting point re the weight Chris - I would have thought that drag would have been more of a limiting factor.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 16, 2020, 07:59:27 AM
Nice photos Chris. The HQ Airgliders look very sharp against the blue sky! That is an interesting point re the weight Chris - I would have thought that drag would have been more of a limiting factor.

John

An excellent point, particularly considering the Dornier Delphin's lack of aerodynamic refinement. The spinning prop is surely not helping either. I intend to do some test flights and put some rough design goals together. About the sweetest flying model is my Alpha Jet - good aerodynamics with a flying weight of 140g including 40g ballast. Maybe the future is profile models or jets? Or profile jets!  

Chris P

PS : I have decided to test fly the Delphin without the spinning prop. It's only held on with a rubber ring prop saver. If there is a significant improvement, I'll abandon the idea of a spinning prop on the F2C model - which I was going to fit this afternoon!!!  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 18, 2020, 05:02:24 AM
Re aerodynamic drag. I flew the Delphin yesterday with and without the prop. The reduction in effort without the prop was significant. I also took my most aerodynamic models - the F-18, F-22 and Polecat. These are small models weighing 79g, 83g and 53g respectively. I had no problem flying all three on 34 feet pole + line lengths and they would have easily flown on longer lines. Concrete proof of what we expected.

I also test flew the P-40 and F2C. Both models fly outboard wing low (a lot). Huge amounts of lead on the inboard wing are needed to correct this, which is obviously not a viable solution. I have the same problem on my Fake German Jet and the Brewster Bermuda profile. The only significant difference I can see is that models exhibiting this phenomenon all have zero-zero incidence. (The F2C just has a flat wing with no elevator cut out yet). So last night I converted the Bermuda to single line flying. I weighted it to get the CG at 25% MAC and will used the pushrod to trim up elevator and see if it then flies level. Most curious.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 18, 2020, 05:23:07 AM
Quote
also test flew the P-40 and F2C. Both models fly outboard wing low (a lot).

Do you think this may be a case of the line attachment on the model not being far enough forward( extended line of action going behind CG)? If it is a bit too far back then the model will tend to yaw outwards excessively and this may reduce the lift on the outside wing.

Dihedral or sweep on the wings would also make this effect worse.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: JugheadP47 on May 18, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
I just came upon this thread.  The first plane I ever flew was a whip plane.  I had gotten two of them by sending four box tops from Cheerios cereal. They were printed on heavy construction paper.  I cut out the pattern with a razor blade, and there were fold lines, and tabs to tape it together.  This was fifty to sixty years ago, so the memory is fuzzy.  I remember there were several options.  The two I got were the Me109, and Gruman Hellcat.  I think.  One may have been a P40. They were incredibly fun.  I still like Cheerios.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 19, 2020, 04:36:34 AM
Quote
also test flew the P-40 and F2C. Both models fly outboard wing low (a lot).

Do you think this may be a case of the line attachment on the model not being far enough forward( extended line of action going behind CG)? If it is a bit too far back then the model will tend to yaw outwards excessively and this may reduce the lift on the outside wing.

Dihedral or sweep on the wings would also make this effect worse.

John


Again great input from you!! I have been setting up the fuselage tether and tip guide at 1cm in front of the CG. The CG starts off at 30% MAC and then I trim with weight to get good performance. With the HQ Airgliders, due to the structure, the tether is about 3cms in front of the CG and they all fly fine. However I am a bit suspicious of using this setup for other models as they fly very slowly with little line tension.

I should be able to fly the Bermuda this afternoon and see the effect of higher pitch stability. The fuselage tether and wing tip guide are 1cm in front of the 25% MAC line, which is where the model balances. I want to try one idea at a time and the second one on my list was also tether position. The Bermuda has been sacrificed to these tests and I have no issues with doing whatever hacking of the model is necessary to get it to fly properly. Work on other models has been temporarily suspended!

Chris P

   


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 19, 2020, 04:49:09 AM
I just came upon this thread.  The first plane I ever flew was a whip plane.  I had gotten two of them by sending four box tops from Cheerios cereal. They were printed on heavy construction paper.  I cut out the pattern with a razor blade, and there were fold lines, and tabs to tape it together.  This was fifty to sixty years ago, so the memory is fuzzy.  I remember there were several options.  The two I got were the Me109, and Gruman Hellcat.  I think.  One may have been a P40. They were incredibly fun.  I still like Cheerios.

Nice story!!

I googled Cheerios and found this plane which came printed on the box. You didn't have to send away for it. We were satisfied with much less in those days!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 19, 2020, 02:01:19 PM
Just came back from the flying field. The Bermuda is now flying perfectly. I had dialled in 3mm up to compensate for the 25% CG and this proved just right. In fact the model flew a touch left wing low, which I think was due to the addition of the tether guide on the LH wing. I didn't have any lead weights with me, so I taped on a small key. This levelled things up beautifully.

I could only bend the fuselage tether forward about 6 or 7mm to see if there was any significant change to the yaw, but I couldn't detect any. I might add another tether that's maybe 2cm further forward to see what happens.

Good progress!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: JugheadP47 on May 19, 2020, 06:39:03 PM

Nice story!!

I googled Cheerios and found this plane which came printed on the box. You didn't have to send away for it. We were satisfied with much less in those days!!

Chris P

A little like that, but the ones I got, probably prior to 1965, had full fuselage, not profile. The wings had camber.  Don't remember if there were ribs or a spar.  I have searched for them, but never found them.  Maybe I'll try again.

Cheerios are a popular breakfast cereal here.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 19, 2020, 08:32:44 PM
It's interesting to me to see how much is actually involved in fully understanding what appears to be a simple form of flying. it is the icing on the cake of model flying for me. So good luck with your experiments.

Fascinating bit of history Jughead - an era when kids could still get excited over simple forms of entertainment.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 20, 2020, 01:08:07 PM
It's interesting to me to see how much is actually involved in fully understanding what appears to be a simple form of flying.

That's exactly how I feel too!! I did get a BSc degree in Aeronautical Engineering a million years ago and, as you say, it's interesting understanding a form of flying which is not relevant to full size aircraft.

The poor old Bermuda was looking very scruffy with 60g of iron on the nose. So after helping me to find the solution for the outboard wing low syndrom, I cheered it up by boxing in the weights with scrap balsa and covered the whole lot with 0.4mm ply. I think it's a good solution for profile models.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 20, 2020, 01:13:07 PM


A little like that, but the ones I got, probably prior to 1965, had full fuselage, not profile. The wings had camber.  Don't remember if there were ribs or a spar.  I have searched for them, but never found them.  Maybe I'll try again.

[/quote]

If you do track down these models, please post details here!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 20, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
Quote
I did get a BSc degree in Aeronautical Engineering a million years ago
Interesting Chris! Around the same millennium or perhaps earlier I started a course in BscAero Eng as well. My dream was to be a Aero Engineer. I didn't apply myself - too immature and ended up as an air conditioning design draughtsman instead.

I have had a insatiable interest in Aerodynamics since and studying it in any form is one of my main interests. thus my interest here on HPA in Free Flight trimming, design in general and the peculiarities of CL models.

CL has it's own unique features I feel, in it's form of "automatic pilot" operating through the lines applying the necessary elevator input to return the model to it's trimmed height. Also i recently found a reason why of all the model classes - the CG needs to be so far in front of the MAC, as this acts as  negative feedback to the "autopilot" effect.

There is far more to CL and it's cousin Whip Control, than meets the eye!

Cheers,

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 21, 2020, 04:53:25 AM
I loved the structure side and this got me into the automobile industry at the time when crash testing started in earnest and mass savings became important.

Here's another datapoint. I checked the revised CG on my Dornier Delphin and it is at 25% MAC. It also has a healthy amount of negative setting on the tailplane. As this model flies very well, I will use this setup going forward. My first two questions on Whip Control were 'where's the CG' and 'where is the tether located'. I'm finally getting nearer an answer!!

If you're interested on how I determine the MAC on my models, there's a little article I wrote on Outerzone.co.uk under Viewpoint.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: JugheadP47 on May 21, 2020, 09:13:12 PM
Quote
I did get a BSc degree in Aeronautical Engineering a million years ago
Interesting Chris! Around the same millennium or perhaps earlier I started a course in BscAero Eng as well. My dream was to be a Aero Engineer. I didn't apply myself - too immature and ended up as an air conditioning design draughtsman instead.
I loved the structure side and this got me into the automobile industry at the time when crash testing started in earnest and mass savings became important.
I spent fifteen years as a machinist before getting my BSME.  Often wish I had stayed on the shop floor. My career focused on CAD work. Now interviewing for a drafting job. 2/3 the pay at my last aerospace job, and hopefully less than 2/3 the stress.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 22, 2020, 01:43:56 AM
Quote
I did get a BSc degree in Aeronautical Engineering a million years ago
Interesting Chris! Around the same millennium or perhaps earlier I started a course in BscAero Eng as well. My dream was to be a Aero Engineer. I didn't apply myself - too immature and ended up as an air conditioning design draughtsman instead.
I loved the structure side and this got me into the automobile industry at the time when crash testing started in earnest and mass savings became important.
I spent fifteen years as a machinist before getting my BSME.  Often wish I had stayed on the shop floor. My career focused on CAD work. Now interviewing for a drafting job. 2/3 the pay at my last aerospace job, and hopefully less than 2/3 the stress.

Before I retired I finished up as a Project Manager running two car programs. One was in South Korea and the other one was in Detroit. The Koreans wanted to have phone conferences at 6:00 in the morning my time, and the Americans at midnight. I know what stress is !!! 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 22, 2020, 02:10:46 AM
Flight testing again yesterday. The Bermuda now flies superbly and joined the 34 club (flying on 34 feet pole + line). I must make up a longer line for the reel as there is much more potential there. It looks a bit naff flying without a prop, so I'm thinking about replacing it by an early post war straight wing jet such as a Grumman Panther. As the Bermuda is finally flying well, I may replace the bellcrank at a later date and try flying it again on two lines with a handle.

The Lidl Glider and Delphin both flew very well, but yawing to the right. After a year flying these darned things you start to notice the smaller details. I guess what has happened is that I have moved the CG forward on both of them and it has finished up about where the tether point is. I got up early this morning (lots of practice at that from running a Korean car program from Germany!!) and moved the fuselage and wing tip loops forward on both of them by 2cms. Relatively easy on these foamies. I think that the generic 1cm between CG and tether is too small for larger models and I also have the gut feeling that too small a distance is worse than one too large. 

The next step will be to test fly the P-47 and FW 190. As both have RC elevator, it will be easy to add noseweight and dial in up elevator trim if necessary. However I dread the thought of having to move the tether points on these painted models. The same goes for the P-40, which definitely has the OWL syndrom (one wing low), where I will most probably have to cut in elevators. Again, moving the tether points would probably mean much paint retouching.

The thought of moving tether points on the F2C is even worse!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 22, 2020, 05:20:37 AM
Quote
Insert Quote Flight testing again yesterday. The Bermuda now flies superbly and joined the 34 club (flying on 34 feet pole + line).

34' - that's good going Chris. I have an old 1cc Bee diesel powered semi scale profile Camel that flies on 35' from memory.

If the 2 line system can be made to work on that model without too much hassle - then it would be neat. Maybe groupers on the line would help keep the drag down - but that would make it hard to reel the lines in/out.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 22, 2020, 05:24:50 AM
Well good luck with that JH. I was "retired" in 2008 and don't particularly miss it apart from the money :)

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 23, 2020, 08:15:01 AM
I found this Grumman Panther plan from the Spanish magazine Lupin on Pinterest. I printed it out scaled up just a bit to 18ins span, and it looks like a really sensible whip control model. Straight wings and a nice long nose. I would give it some down incidence on the tailplane and balance it at 25% MAC. I'll put it on the 'Maybe' List.

Chris P

Hey - I just made Silver Member. Yipppeeeee!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 23, 2020, 09:16:16 AM
Another model surfaced from the back of the cellar when I was down there looking for something else. I had completely forgotten about it. Some 15 years ago I wanted to build a 'Catapult Solid' as per Aeromodeller January 1954. I chose the crescent wing Arado 234 V16, but got bored with the build after a couple of evenings. I found the model well protected in a plastic bag with the plans. A tiny thing, only 28cms in span. The wing was on the fuselage, but the engines and tail had not been fitted. Perfect!! I fitted the tailpane at negative incidence, then the fin and decided not to fit the engines at all. A few hours work and I had a single wing tether fitted and 5g in the nose to get the CG at 25% MAC.

I will see what it does the next time I go flying. If it's OK, I'll dope and paint it.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 23, 2020, 09:25:55 PM
I agree that the Panther looks a good candidate Chris. Their suggested line attach point seems way out to me - too far back. The foam model was a lucky find.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 24, 2020, 02:52:38 AM
I agree that the Panther looks a good candidate Chris. Their suggested line attach point seems way out to me - too far back. The foam model was a lucky find.

John
If you mean the Arado, it's lovingly carved balsa!! Solid model aeromodelling WW2 style!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on May 24, 2020, 03:36:38 AM
Whoops! I guess i should have actually read the post completely instead of half guessing. Solid carving is a bit of an art form and it looks accurate. It should work well.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 10, 2020, 11:38:20 AM
I'm coming to the conclusion that using a wing tip guide does more harm than good. It's obvious that it is causing yaw to the outside of the flight path.

I flew some selected models in our hall this morning and attached the line only to the fuselage hook. The models flew well. The Piper Cub, with dihedral, flew perfectly. The Polecat flew slightly right wing low, but as it still has its ailerons from its RC days, I was able to counter this with the tiniest amount of left aileron. A week ago I flew my Lidl Glider and Delphin, which both have tip guides, and solved the yaw by generous amount of left rudder. But it doesn't look too good and I don't think it's addressing the cause.

The smallest HQ Airglider has a tether point more forward than usual, and also flies well. My Arado, with a tether inboard of the tip does not suffer from outward yaw. A whole bunch of new data!!

So I have ordered a couple of EPP models of 60cms span which will serve as test beds. I will install different tether points and evaluate them. The idea is to set up the CG so they glide reasonably and then just play with the tether points, leaving the CG where it is.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 11, 2020, 05:13:00 AM
With tether points and CG's running through my mind, I woke up with the blindingly obvious idea of re-checking the 1967 Michael Payne article. Unfortunately he uses the root chord as a reference, not the Mean Aerodynamic Chord, but as the drawing showed a Spitfire I could work it back from there.

I printed out a Spitfire wing and balanced it over an edge to find the MAC. Using the hopefully reasonably accurate drawing in the article (but probaly not!!), I established the CG at 12% MAC and the tether at 1.9% MAC. When I started building these models, I was putting the CG at 30% and over time it moved to 25%. I will certainly try out something in the 12% regime on my test models.

I also checked out his incidence angles. He mentioned 'at least 2 degrees longitudinal dihedral'. The drawing shows about 4 degrees, but he may have slightly exaggerated it to make it clearer.

So I think the tactic will be to get the CG to 12%, trim the glide with the elevator and test from there.

Chris P  


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on June 11, 2020, 08:46:27 PM
I'm not so sure I would use that much decalage Chris.That will make the model very speed sensitive in in my opinion and experience with CLG's and small high powered FF rubber models. I think I would err on the side of low decalage - 1.5deg or less, if using fixed surfaces.

As for the CG - I would then set it for a flat glide.

The line attachment is something I personally would still like to see on a wing tip lead out guide sufficently far forward to give an angle of around 8 deg to a spanwise line drawn through the CG and actually passing through the CG.

Cheers,

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 12, 2020, 02:25:27 AM
I will carefully document (and publish) the results from the test models!! 

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on June 12, 2020, 02:28:39 AM
Thanks  looking forward to your results Chris.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 15, 2020, 01:34:27 AM
My first questions when I started this were 'Where is the CG' and 'Where is the tether'? So I thought that it would help if I provide details as I get the models sorted out.

This is the brilliantly flying FMS 467mm Alpha Jet from Banggood (and others). It is ballasted up to 140g in the fuselage for outdoor flying. The CG is 78mm back from the root with the fuselage tether 21mm forward of that. The CG is at 14% MAC which is starting to look like a good place for swept wing aircraft. The tip guide lines up with the fuselage tether in plan view and must be cranked down in side view so that it is the same height as the fuselage tether. The model costs about €15.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 15, 2020, 04:53:41 AM
I thought the profile Brewster Bermuda would be easy, but it wasn't. I built it as a 2-line model with a bellcrank and it wouldn't fly at all. I converted it to a single line and it still wouldn't fly. The main issue was the outboard wing which hung down at about 45 degrees. I tried large amounts of weight on the inboard wing which hardly helped at all. I then moved the CG to 25% MAC and the tether point to match. Fortunately I could use the adjustable elevator to trim it, which got it flying without the wing hanging. It needed a lot of nose weight and as a result it flies a bit like a brick on a string.

The photo shows that I try to get the fuselage tether about where the height of the CG is located (to avoid a rolling moment).

I think that the two main negatives with this model were :

- Nose too short requiring a lot of weight (poor choice of subject)

- Wing/Tail set up at Zero Zero.

If I'm super critical, it flies the tiniest amount outboard wing low. Experience with other models showed I can trim this out easily with a touch up inboard aileron.  

465mm Span 157g 6mm fuselage, 5mm surfaces, 0,6mm ply reinforcements

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Glidiator on June 16, 2020, 09:19:52 AM
Hi
Saw this thread on HPA today and was reminded of my whip control Thunderjet I made a few years back. Made of foam covered with craft paper that makes it very strong and rigid. I will have to dig out the plans from my hard disk. The model is safely stored away. Will have to reduce the file size of the photos but have some youtube videos of it flying.
Is it flying / gliding or just a brick at end of the string?
 Tried putting a bell crank for elevator control but somehow did not pursue that project. Must revive it.
Where can I get plans for other whip control models. This one I happened to come across while searching the net.

Some videos of my whip control in flight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjg2j8pon84

In slow motion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDgLvOKfadQ

Anant


 


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 17, 2020, 07:03:48 AM
Today was the big breakthrough!! The Felix IQ60 arrived and I converted to Whip Control using all I thought would work better. And it did!

CG at 15% MAC (same as 15% Root Chord of 100mm)

Outboard guide not at the tip (to reduce the yaw moment, actually just outboard of the dihedral break to line up horizontally with the fuselage tether)

Fuselage tether 20mm in front of the CG (5mm in front of the LE) and about at the vertical CG

Outbard guide length to give 3 degree forward sweep of the line (thanks John!)

The roll angle matches the line angle i.e. down when it is high and up when it is low. No noticeable outward yaw.

So satisfied!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 17, 2020, 07:18:43 AM
Hi
Saw this thread on HPA today and was reminded of my whip control Thunderjet I made a few years back. Made of foam covered with craft paper that makes it very strong and rigid. I will have to dig out the plans from my hard disk. The model is safely stored away. Will have to reduce the file size of the photos but have some youtube videos of it flying.
Is it flying / gliding or just a brick at end of the string?
 Tried putting a bell crank for elevator control but somehow did not pursue that project. Must revive it.
Where can I get plans for other whip control models. This one I happened to come across while searching the net.

Some videos of my whip control in flight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjg2j8pon84

In slow motion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDgLvOKfadQ

Anant


 
Hi Anant

That's great!! It would fly well on longer lines with a fishing reel.

There really aren't too many plans out there. I put a couple on this site and one of the best is the Grumman Panther from Lupin. If you Google 'catapult gliders', there are plans of some nice early long nose straight wing US jets that can be adapted :  T-33, F-94 Starfire, Mac Donnell FH-1, FH-2 Banshee….. Otherwise it's easy to scale up a 3-view to around 450 - 500mm span and build a profile model with a 6mm fuselage and 5mm wings. Just choose a subject with a long nose!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 17, 2020, 07:37:38 AM
I found this unlikely looking 9'' span design on Outerzone/RC Library in Jr American Modeler 1973 05. I was fascinated by the fact that it can apparently fly loops, inverted, figure 8's and all on one line !! I built one yesterday in less than 90 minutes and flew it in our hall this morning. It lets you know when the CG is too far aft as it becomes absolutely unflyable. Moving the coiled solder just enough forward to get it stable indicates that aerobatics may really be possible !! Unfortunately it was not possible to do loops in our hall, but I will try soon outside.
It flies nose yawed out and right wing low, not unexpected when looking at the design.

We shall see!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 17, 2020, 08:25:03 AM
Anant

To save you googling I have found these in my files. They would all work well as Whip Control models.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Glidiator on June 17, 2020, 09:03:09 AM
sx976

Thanks for the plans.
Will get down to making a fleet of whip / swing control models.

Can they be made with thick card.

I have in the recesses of my hard disk something called the Ringmaster which I found on the net when searching for whip control card paper model plans. will dig it out and post for reference.
Anant


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 17, 2020, 09:19:50 AM
sx976

Thanks for the plans.
Will get down to making a fleet of whip / swing control models.

Can they be made with thick card.

I have in the recesses of my hard disk something called the Ringmaster which I found on the net when searching for whip control card paper model plans. will dig it out and post for reference.
Anant
I have no experience with card. I like balsa or EPP foam and don't like Styrofoam as it breaks/dents too easily. I think you would be better off with balsa as it is stiffer. I even go as far as ordering quarter grain balsa as it doesn't warp. But if card is what you want to try, go for it and let us know the results!!

wp.scn.ru is a great website for finding colour schemes of scale models.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Glidiator on June 17, 2020, 10:35:21 AM
Hi,

Managed to find the card Ring Master Whip control airplane template

Dont remember where I found this on the net.

Check it out.
Anant


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Glidiator on June 17, 2020, 11:09:56 AM
This is the construction exploded view.
Anant


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 17, 2020, 11:12:08 AM
Yes, I've seen this one before. I don't think it is a good subject for Whip Control as the nose is very short (less than the root chord). If you log into Pinterest and enter 'cutout card airplanes', you will find a large amount of card models. The other alternative would be to use plain card and paint it. For the F-94 you could spray it in grey primer, do panel lines with a  fine felt tip pen and the colour bands with poster paints. The US Navy jets are simply dark blue. Your F-84 had good proportions with the long nose!

Chris P  

Also 'Paper Model Airplanes'


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 18, 2020, 04:34:51 AM
Anant

It occurred to me that Depron model plans could serve as a good starter for a carboard Whip Control model. After all, cardboard and Depron are both flat!

If you punch in 'Depron' under 'Search' on hippocketaeronautics you will find many plans. If you are looking for something that has a full fuselage rather than profile, the Blue Angel Baby (scaled down) looks fit for purpose.

F-18 plan attached as a thought starter.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 19, 2020, 04:39:24 AM
As I now have a better idea on how to set up Whip Control models, I have bought a second Guillows Sky Raider to try the new ideas on a swept wing model.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Glidiator on June 23, 2020, 04:25:23 AM
Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response. Will try out your suggestions.
Depron is very easy to sand and cut etc.
Anant


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 24, 2020, 07:23:40 AM
Hi,
Sorry for the delayed response. Will try out your suggestions.
Depron is very easy to sand and cut etc.
Anant

You're very welcome!! Depron is a much better material than cardboard and Uhu Por is definitely the best glue to use with Depron. I have built about 20 own design small RC models out of Depron for our sports hall.

Best of luck and please let us know how your new projects work out!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: Glidiator on June 24, 2020, 08:30:53 AM
Yes depron is a good material. I stay on the coast and now the monsoon season has begun. Rains now for at least 3/4 months. Humidity goes up to 85/90%. Cardboard or paper absorbs lot of moisture and warps or looses stiffness. Depron does not have those problems - practically water/moisture proof.
UHU por is available through Amazon but pretty expensive and no locally made alternative is suitable. Next option is PVA glue but that takes a long time to dry.
Anyway now is construction season as outdoor flying is restricted due to rain and wet grounds.
Anant


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 24, 2020, 09:30:08 AM
I have had no success trying to glue Depron with PVA. PVA needs to soak into the grain, and Depron doesn't have a grain. I have also ordered highly expensive glues from Amazon like Titebond II and Gorilla glue for other projects. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet!! I order Uhu Por on Ebay from England. 4 packs for around €15. Don't know if they ship to India. I live in Germany and it's a German product and it's still cheaper from England!  

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 24, 2020, 09:49:23 AM
I flew the new Guillow’s Sky Raider in our sports hall this morning. I was expecting to have to adjust the trim by cutting in elevators, but it flew perfectly. I had applied the same criteria as I used for the Felix IQ 60 and wanted to see if a swept wing model reacted differently. There was no difference. The new Sky Raider with a CG balance weight up front is at 51g under half the weight of the old one (ballasted) and flies slowly and majestically in our hall. It would definitely need ballasting for outdoors flying, but I intend to fly it only in the sports hall.

The model comes out of the bag with the tailplane set at a healthy negative angle. This proved exactly right for Whip Control!

This is the setup I used :

Fuselage tether 43mm behind the LE at the root.
CG 62mm behind the LE at the root. Corresponds to 15% at MAC.
Outer guide 97mm in from the tip. Front edge of the wire loop 39mm in front of the LE which gives a forward line sweep of 3 degrees. Loop bent upwards ca 22mm to line up horizontally with the fuselage tether.

I have now been trying out 0.3mm Spider Wire for a couple of weeks and I like it. I changed from monofilament to thread, which was an improvement, but Spider Wire is definitely better.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 24, 2020, 10:05:56 AM
Here's an F-15 for Depron :


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on June 24, 2020, 07:46:03 PM
It's good to see the setup working well on the Skyraider, Chris.

It sounds as though the CG position would work well as a CL model with that CG and 2 line control to a tail/elevator set at zero degrees.

I agree re your comments on UHU Por for Depron - it is the best glue to use. Also Depron is becoming hard to obtain in some sizes and there are alternatives such as Graupner Veroboard or aerofoam.

John.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 01, 2020, 06:42:26 AM
Flew in our hall this morning. I wanted to try out the third test model, a 600mm EPP SBach. I had cut in a little more negative incidence for the tailplane and used exactly the same setup as the first two test models. The model flew perfectly without the need of any adjustment at all. I think I have finally cracked the setup for Whip Control !

I wanted to keep the Guillow's Sky Raider light, so I just glued on some Cold War style RAF roundels (Valiant, Victor, Vulcan) and a bit of black paint to represent a cockpit. It'll do. I'll do a black cockpit on the SBach too now that I know it flies.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 02, 2020, 01:32:05 AM
Neat Chris. I checked out the angle between the tether point and the CG at the wing root on CAD and came up with 8 deg which was where I was expecting it to be.

Have fun.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 02, 2020, 08:07:31 AM
Hi John

I always file my data sheets, so it was easy to check. I had set it up as 3 degrees forward sweep from the front of the outer guide loop to the centre of the fuselage tether loop.  I had not calculated  the angle from the front of the outer guide loop to the CG at the wing root as you show. You were very close, it is 8.6 degrees! If you took it to the CG at the fuselage centre line, it would be 7 degrees.

Chris P

PS - I have discovered the down side of Whip Control - Tennis Elbow!!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 02, 2020, 07:28:25 PM
Quote
PS - I have discovered the down side of Whip Control - Tennis Elbow!!!
  That's annoying and I don't think it will ever be a paying proposition like professional tennis :)

Actually i think that the heavier models may give you a easier time- after getting them up to speed their momentum will carry them for a couple of laps perhaps.

happy whipping.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 03, 2020, 05:33:01 AM
I was originally using our fabulous Sports Hall just for testing, but I'm finding flying light, slow models there very enjoyable. I think whatever the next project is, will be optimised for indoor flying.

Chris P



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 07, 2020, 12:34:32 PM
Re : Reply #213 Whippersnapper

I managed to get up to the flying field today to do some RC flying. I took along the Whippersnapper I had made. It was a bit too windy for my liking, but I flew it anyway. In a few words :

Yes, it will fly loops !!

Yes, it will fly inverted !!

Yes, it will fly bunts !!

Yes, it will fly eights !!

Who would have thought that !! All a bit untidy, but for something that crude I'm totally impressed!!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 09, 2020, 02:30:00 AM
One of my club colleagues wants to have a go at Whip Control, so I decided to knock up a model for him to get started. I bought five 48cm foam gliders from AliExpress for under €10. This would also be a great way for someone to build a very inexpensive model just to try it out.

I added 20g under the cockpit so that the model balances 15mm from the leading edge at the root. The fuselage tether point is exactly at the leading edge. The tether has a 90 degree bend and is fitted into a horizontal cut in the fuselage. The wing guide is 130mm out from the root and the front edge of the loop is 15 mm from the leading edge to give 3 degrees forward line sweep.

The tailplane is fitted into the top slot. A little down elevator was found to be necessary during flight trials and was cut in with an Xacto knife and fixed with CA glue. The huge amount of longitudinal dihedral to allow the forward CG means that it is a very stable flyer.

The model weighs 70g, so can be flown indoors and outdoors in not too windy weather.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 09, 2020, 08:19:00 PM
Loops and bunts - that is pretty good going Chris. I guess that was on around 30' of line?

Re the foam model - original design by Multiplex. They are pretty good FF gliders as well but also make very interesting small RC models. I had one with 3 channel control and a folding prop. Ailerons,elevator and motor with a folding prop.

I hope your friend enjoys the whip version!

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 10, 2020, 01:18:42 AM
Loops and bunts - that is pretty good going Chris. I guess that was on around 30' of line?

Re the foam model - original design by Multiplex. They are pretty good FF gliders as well but also make very interesting small RC models. I had one with 3 channel control and a folding prop. Ailerons,elevator and motor with a folding prop.

I hope your friend enjoys the whip version!

John

I only had my small indoor pole with me, so the Whippersnapper was flying on a pole + line length of 23 feet. I hope to get some RC flying in this weekend, if the weather behaves, and will try the model on longer lines.

I also spent an hour converting the Brewster Bermuda back to 2 lines with elevator. Will try that out too.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 13, 2020, 12:35:55 PM
I was able to try the Brewster Bermuda with two lines. Rubbish!! Even though it flew acceptably well on one line, it was back to the old problem of the outboard wing low and the model yawed outboard.

I just can't add any more weight to move the CG forward, so I will have to build something new. Very frustrating.

I'm adding the photo again which is still haunting me !!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 14, 2020, 01:51:46 AM
This is the only plan for a 2-line model that I have ever found showing the CG, bellcrank and line positions. According to the article it will do wingovers and loops. That's a good starting place!

The choice of an F-15 gives a very long nose moment arm so that huge amounts of lead are not needed. The wing & tail are set at zero/zero, so I assume it flies in level flight with a healthy amount of up elevator. In fact there is a very large degree of elevator movement shown.

I get the CG at 3.7% MAC and the pivot at 18.2%. It's interesting that the bellcrank pivot is behind the CG like on a normal control line model. On the Bermuda I had it the other way around (CG aft of pivot) as on a single line whip control model. Maybe that was the fatal flaw. 

If possible I may use one of my 48cm foam gliders to try a setup something like this before embarking on a new scratch build.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 15, 2020, 08:47:12 AM
I spent a few hours yesterday converting one of the 48cm foam gliders to 2-line control using the setup criteria from the F-15. No trouble was taken to make it look pretty.

Well, it flies! It responds to elevator control OK. It's quite sluggish on up elevator and more lively on down. This was in our hall and I now need to fly it outdoors.

Quite a breakthrough and a step in the right direction.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 15, 2020, 09:05:16 PM
That's good progress Chris.

One question answered another raises it's hand  :) - that of the sluggish response to up elevator.

Hope it works ok outside.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 18, 2020, 01:23:34 AM
We're supposed to have good weather tomorrow, so we'll be taking a picnic up to the flying field. I want to investigate the 'single line aerobatic concept' a bit further. Last night I built a second Whippersnapper, this one enlarged by a third. The original plan is based on 3'' wide balsa, so scaling it up by a third meant it was a no brainer to build from German 100mm (4'') wide material. I cut the pieces out on my Proxxon circular saw in a few minutes and had the thing done in just over an hour including glue drying time.

Flying my two line model has definitely contributed to what I think is tennis elbow. I have been using  relatively heavy fibreglass rod and having to hold it in one hand with the control line handle in the other has strained my ancient joints. If I get the two line model flying halfway decent, I will splash out on a lighter carbon pole.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 19, 2020, 01:27:12 PM
The Whippersnapper is HUGE fun to fly. The enlarged version even more so. If there are enough bits in my scrap box, I'll build a twice sized one. Loops, eights, inverted flight are all possible at breathtaking speed. The twin boom design is great, as wrapped around solder can be easily moved to trim the model. And it bounces away from crashes without damage.

I tried looping one of my 48cm foam gliders ballasted for outdoor flight. That worked as well!

I also flew the 48cm foam glider converted to two lines. It also loops, but it's all a bit clumsy as the pole is heavy and you have a pole in one hand and a control line handle in the other. Needs a lot more practice, and maybe a lighter pole.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: JEM on July 20, 2020, 02:52:28 AM
Chris, I just came across this video. Thought you might be interested.

https://www.facebook.com/ljubetic/videos/10158805749102112

Cheers,
John.


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 21, 2020, 01:21:24 AM
Amazing! Lots of skill there.

What do you think is the secret to the aerobatic qualities of your Whippersnapper Chris?

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 22, 2020, 07:11:05 AM
Amazing! Lots of skill there.

What do you think is the secret to the aerobatic qualities of your Whippersnapper Chris?

John
Fabulous video!!  He's a real showman.

I really don't know what the secret of the Whippersnapper is. Maybe it's a brick on a string, or flying like a streamer on the end of a pole ?? One of the nice things about the design is being able to easily slide the solder nose weight back and forth to get the right balance. When flying loops, I find it better the lead the model by half a circle, rather than being in synchronization with it.

I built the third one. Flies nicely in the hall, but I need to get it outside. The three sizes are #1 Original span 9'', #2 Enlarged to span 12'', #3 Enlarged to span 18''

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 23, 2020, 01:26:16 AM
I found some details of the Jim Walker P39. Particularly interesting was the model span - 19'' and its weight - 2 1/2 ozs = 71g. My largest Whippersnapper is 18'' span, weighs 57g and is aerobatic on one line. So it would be an excellent starting point for a two line model. With the modifications for two line control it would probably be dead nuts on the 71g.

I was also interested by Jim Walker's bellcrank design which has a degree of self-neutralising with the pivot point not inline with the leadouts. I would copy that.

I have ordered a light carbon pole. It only cost a tad over €10 from AliExpress. I now think that the Jim Walker models were flown on fairly short lines. My current two line fibreglass pole weighs 333g, the new carbon pole only 118g.

I probably have just enough wood in the scrap box to build a new model.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 24, 2020, 07:45:03 PM
That was an interesting discovery Chris. That bell crank design could help considerably but on the couple of plans I have seen - only conventional bell cranks have been shown. Jim Walker was certainly innovative - also a salesman. The P39 is supposedly a trainer and yet on the box he reckons it will do 90mph :)

John



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 28, 2020, 07:19:00 AM
I have had a few other things to do, so I have only just got around to starting the Whippersnapper two line conversion I did the elevator this morning using wire in tube, piano hinge style. I haven't yet 100% decided how to do the bellcrank and tip guide. The design of the Whippersnapper is perfect in case I have to move the bellcrank!

I'm coverting the larger of the 3 models rather than building a new one.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on July 29, 2020, 07:01:35 AM
I want to use the same line spacings as Jim Walker. I noticed that one piece of balsa in the photo apparently came from the wing (19'' span), so I used that to scale the ply handle and bellcrank. I will have to scratch build the unusual wishbone bellcrank, but I have a control line handle that has exactly the same 109mm line spacing as the plywood one in the kit.

Chris P

I flew my four HQ Airgliders in our hall this morning. They fly beautifully!!


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on July 29, 2020, 07:43:01 PM
The results should be interesting Chris.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on August 02, 2020, 02:23:53 AM
I think so too!

Well, this is what it looks like. I was fortunately able to find my fretsaw to cut out the wishbone bellcrank. Haven't used it in years! I tried to locate the bellcrank and lead out guides similar to the P39 model. I was hoping to get close to 71g (2 1/2 ozs) and was delighted that it weighed in at 70g.

I would normally hide the bellcrank under the wing, but as it is something unusual, I put it on top.

I have rounded off the RH tip on all three Whippersnappers as this is the first point of impact when 'landing'. Otherwise the models have suffered little damage.

Just have to decide if I fly it on my heavy fibreglass pole, or wait until the carbon one arrives.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 26, 2021, 05:43:29 AM
Flying activity has been drastically reduced due to Covid restrictions. I have been able to do a limited amount of flying and, to my disappointment, discovered that my P-40, FW-190 and P-47 all flew poorly. These were built before I generated the latest set of guidelines. I have modified the FW-190 and P-40 and both now fly perfectly. The P-47 needs more repair work than the other two and is still in the workshop. I am passing on the setup in case anyone is using my data for their own models.

The first 2 photos show the old setup with RC elevator. I removed the RC as it was of little use and moved the tethers and CG :

CG at 15% MAC. This required 35g of lead as far foward as possible.

The fuselage tether was moved to 20mm in front of the CG. The vertical height is on a horizontal line drawn from the tip guide.

The wing guide was removed from the tip to roughly 75% of the wing length from the root and 3 degrees forward of the fuselage tether.

Removing the RC left me with a handy adjustable elevator which is set with a locking device to about 3mm up.

The poorly flying (extreme outboard wing low) RC version weighed 262g, the new version without the RC 280g. The increase in weight is due to the lead being heavier than the RC.

My only remaining concern with the model is that the propeller included in the kit is plastic and I may have to replace it with something more robust. As an interim measure I have shortened the line so that with the pole raised, the model does not touch the ground.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 26, 2021, 05:57:17 AM
As the FW-190 flew well, I modified the P-40 in exactly the same way. The P-40 did not have an RC elevator, so I separated the elevator from the tailplane and hinged it with doubled over lithoplate that I happened to have. I just bend the elevator to adjust it.

Due to the added lead, the P-40 now weighs 189g instead of the original 166g. It flies very nicely.

The P-40 also has a plastic prop which may need replacing.

The first photo is the old setup, the second photo the new.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 27, 2021, 06:35:20 AM
About a year ago I built up an EPP 600mm span Sbach kit from Causemann Modellbau. It only cost around €30. It has proved to be a great flyer and is pretty much indestructible. I regretted not fitting a spinning prop and canopy. I couldn’t modify the model I had, so I bought a second kit. I used a model boat shaft as a bearing for the prop and fitted a nylon prop which won’t break too easily.
The fuselage is milled EPP and as a result a bit fuzzy in finish, so I don’t intend to try and paint it. It will just remain a rough and tumble model. (To get rid of the worst fuzz I used Scotch Brite Pads).
The old model with the painted canopy weighed 131g, and because the propshaft is well forward, it basically replaced lead in the old model. So the new one weighs a respectable 135g.
I didn't fit a hinged elevator. If trim adjustments are necessary, I can slit the tailplane and CA glue the setting in place. I have exactly the same setup as the original model, which didn't need any trimming, so I don't expect any significant issues.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on May 31, 2021, 03:37:51 AM
The new Sbach flies great and looks good with the prop spinning. No trimming necessary, but I did mount the tailplane on both models at -3 degrees incidence, which is need as compensation for the very far forward CG. I feel confident now on how to set up these models.

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: OZPAF on June 01, 2021, 02:23:52 AM
It looks neat Chris. Hmm! - it almost seems to be begging for a electric motor  :) A new ballpark altogether.

John


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 01, 2021, 06:36:36 AM
It looks neat Chris. Hmm! - it almost seems to be begging for a electric motor  :) A new ballpark altogether.

John

Thanks John. It is, of course, a shockflyer kit. So adding a motor would be full circle!

https://shop-rc.causemann.de/Sbach-300-60cm-Spannweite-EPP-Parkflyer-Shockflyer

Chris P



Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 03, 2021, 02:00:30 AM
A year ago I test flew the P-47. The model dived into the ground and ripped the outboard wing off as well as damaging the wing tips. I discovered that the wing was hollow and lacked little strength. I felt like binning it on the spot, put I put it in my cellar instead. A couple of weeks ago I decided to see if I could repair it. After all I could always bin it if the repair looked hopeless.
I removed the RC for the elevator control as I don't think it will add anything to the flying enjoyment. I inserted some square carbon tubes into the wing to reinforce it (passing through the fuselage) and glued it back on. Surprisingly the filler sanded down nicely. I think that was because I had coated the fuselage in diluted PVA glue before painting it, so I wasn't digging into the foam.
I relocated the fuselage and wing tether. In order to get the CG in the right place (15% MAC), I had to cram 70g of weight into the nose. I thought it wise to see if it even flew before starting with the cosmetic damage and repainting. I also left off the prop.
The model now weighed 321g. Hefty! I checked back with the original Michael Payne article and he stated the 'limit for comfortable flying' as 12 ozs = 340g. I was a bit worried as I think his models were quite a bit bigger than my P-47.
I flew the model on my outdoor pole & line. At the beginning it was flying a little outboard wing low, but as I increased flying speed the wing popped up level and it flew beautifully (very fast). The P-40 and FW-190 also have this pop up behaviour. However - the pull on the line was very strong and keeping the model flying was more like a workout than aeromodelling. I was actually concerned that the line could break! It tumbled a bit when it landed, but nothing broke. I think I will continue with making it look presentable again. However, I don't think this is way I should be building the models.
I feel that the biggest lesson learned is 'nose length'. A long nose Focke Wulf 190D would be a better choice which would avoid adding large amounts of lead. I have an unbuilt Hurricane from the same series, but now I don't intend to build it for whip control as the nose is very short.

Lessons learned!

Chris P


Title: Re: Swing Control
Post by: sx976 on June 03, 2021, 02:09:43 AM
I have also abandoned the F2C style team racer I was building. Shame, it is really beautiful! The nose is ridiculously short and, being a flying wing, needs the CG even further forward. I did a careful test flight, but it looks like it would need a house brick to get the CG in the right place.

The same lesson learned - Again!

Chris P