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Indoor Free Flight Forum => Scale, Indoor => Topic started by: Russ Lister on March 05, 2013, 06:11:50 PM



Title: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 05, 2013, 06:11:50 PM
I'm a bit reluctant to start build threads for models these days because I have had to put things on the back burner too often.
In an effort to have at least one model ready for the indoor nats, I am concentrating on this one.
I actually started it a year or so ago .... I won the kit at a raffle at the Peterborough Flying Aces a couple of years or so ago.

This was the position I was at a week or so ago:


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 05, 2013, 06:17:47 PM
A couple of days later and I am on the fuselage .... I will be deliberately vague sometimes with respect to modifications I have made!  ::)

You can just make out the Triplane photo on the Shuttleworth Collection calendar .... the Dixie being piloted by that man Andy Sephton on this occasion.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 05, 2013, 06:21:34 PM
Started boxing up the fuselage today ... as I was in the workshop I squared up some timber for jigs including the large internal one shown.
This worked quite well so I will be doing it again where the structure allows.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Don McLellan on March 05, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
Hi Russ,

Very clever and interesting jig for the fuse.  (I'm saving the pic in my 'fixture' file for future reference).

Don


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 05, 2013, 06:46:53 PM
Thanks Don ... forgot to mention that I used the internal block as a template when cutting the cross pieces.
These were cut slightly over length and then sanded flush with the block ... all the pieces nicely the same with little effort.
Only any good for the parallel section of course!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 06, 2013, 09:19:53 AM
Looks good Russ, do you think you might have it flying for the next Bushfields indoor session?

I hopefully should be there, if they let us NMAC loonies back after our first "raid"

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 06, 2013, 04:58:25 PM
I would love to Andrew ... just glad to be back building at the moment.
That's the Saturday this time isn't it? .... there is that new Walsall meeting on the Sunday and I can't afford to do both at the minute so I will have to give it some thought.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 06, 2013, 05:09:11 PM
Looking great Russ! I think Walsall is all day? P'boro is just 10-1pm.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on March 06, 2013, 05:13:01 PM
Russ: If you are entering kit scale, I'll quietly give up now!

Never been to Middle Wallop; I'll look at the distances involved!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 06, 2013, 05:57:33 PM
I will be happy just to get to the indoor nats with something .... you can even reserve last place for me!

Middle Wallop is about 66 miles from where I think you are ....that's going the 'slow' route that I use going to Wallop, Weymouth etc. (my dad did his national service at Bovington and it was the route he took home when on leave)

We'll be stopping in Stockbridge  for at least one night for the Easter meeting. It beats Barkston on a good day for free flight I think. Nice cafe and the museum too.
I think SAM1066 online membership is still free? ... they get some money in by charging for field entry. Even added to the money the base charges, it's still good value.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 06, 2013, 06:04:58 PM
Jon,

Yes, that's the thing ... I think the Walsall meeting will be the stronger draw if I can only pick one  :(
It's still a month away though ... if the weather picks up I might be able to grab some more pennies and go to both! The weather and the recession has hit the craft centre hard, but the signs are good when the sun does actually shine!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: PeeTee on March 06, 2013, 06:28:07 PM
Russ

Great to see that the building juices are flowing again, and there is nothing like posting a few photos to act as incentive ;).

I hope to see you both at MW. I intend to be there on the Monday, and possibly the Sunday if I can get my 36" vintage bungee glider finished.

I like Stockbridge except that it's getting a bit twee now ::) I'll meet you in the White Hart for a pint which is where I normally stop to rehydrate on the way back from MW. I've just realised that 66 miles is shorter than my journey from (Darj)Ealing!

Note that I've asked for good weather as my last three flying days have all been in 20+ mph winds.

Cheers

Peter


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: PeeTee on March 06, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Russ

Great to see that the building juices are flowing again, and there is nothing like posting a few photos to act as incentive ;).

I hope to see you both at MW. I intend to be there on the Monday, and possibly the Sunday if I can get my 36" vintage bungee glider finished.

I like Stockbridge except that it's getting a bit twee now ::) I'll meet you in the White Hart for a pint which is where I normally stop to rehydrate on the way back from MW. I've just realised that 66 miles is shorter than my journey from (Darj)Ealing!

Note that I've asked for good weather as my last three flying days have all been in 20+ mph winds.

Cheers

Peter

ps SAM 1066 membership is still free, and you can access the latest Clarion newsletter via the 1066 website. MoD (the museum) charges £5 for entry to the airfield, and the 1066 supplement is £1 per day. This helps to cover other costs such as the MoD licence fee etc.

pps Hmmm I managed to foul that up then! - my post modification that is - must lay off the cooking sherry ::)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 07, 2013, 04:07:11 AM
Looking forward to it Peter  :) ..... Especially with that weather that you have ordered!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 09, 2013, 03:30:45 PM
A couple of progress shots from last week:

Started framing up the fuselage ... the formers were a little hard to line up, but with a bit of juggling they seem OK. Might just be the way I have attached them?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 09, 2013, 03:32:18 PM
The basic fuselage framing together:


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 09, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
Suffering with a cough and cold this weekend so decided to have a day on the Triplane rather than mess up any paid work!

Finished the fluting on the gun. This was done with a dowel that I had drilled through the centre.
I then used thick thread and a needle to add the flute ... passing the thread through the centre with the needle .... applied glue to the rough line to be taken by the thread .... pulled the thread tight and straight and nudged into position over the glue ... the glue then smoothed carefully along the line.
Paper details, balsa stock and cocktail stick barrel to complete.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 09, 2013, 03:42:09 PM
A couple of coats of sanding sealer to the gun and it was soon ready to paint.

I use 'Citadel' paints for pilots and details ... black base and muddy brown dry brushed to emphasis details.
Might add a third 'highlight' colour?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 09, 2013, 03:44:53 PM
Got to that stage that we all do .... where you start having little mock-ups of the pieces  ::)

Struts are not deviations .... oh no ... certainly not .... completely standard  :P


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: skyraider on March 09, 2013, 05:03:18 PM
Looks Great Russ!  Far better than I could do and even on the old layouts to boot! Great job. Looking forward to seeing the completed tripe.

Skyraider


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 09, 2013, 06:14:57 PM
A craftsman at work is a pleasure to see Russ......

Looking forward to seeing more.

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on March 09, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Russ, that's lovely! You make me ashamed to call myself a modeller...

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 09, 2013, 07:00:24 PM
Thanks  all :)

Dan ... you're joking again! I don't know how you cope looking at Pete Iliffe's models then ... I went to his house last week and got a demo of his latest micro RC model .. a ducted fan Hienkel 163.
The build and finish quality of that model nearly had me crying on the floor and biting my toes! Most of us would be happy to have marked out all the panel lines .... Pete had done all of these in two colours for the shadow and highlight.
The curved sheeting on the body and motor pod looked like precision injection mouldings.
One new development ... he now has a computer and is on the net! I've put this forum in his favourites, but I think it will take him a short while to get up to speed having never touched computers before.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on March 09, 2013, 08:37:16 PM
Hmmm, could there be a link between the glorious standard of his models and the fact that he's not touched computers before?

The Tripe's looking great, Russ.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Monz on March 10, 2013, 03:39:21 PM
Stunning Russ, how did you do the cowl?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 10, 2013, 04:02:13 PM
Thanks Monique.
The cowl is made up using the laser cut rings provided. I then fitted a centre spindle so that I could mount it on my lathe ... then it was just sanded.
To be honest I stopped a little short of what it should have been, so I hope I don't ruin it when it returns to the lathe.  :-\


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 12, 2013, 03:58:30 PM
This is one of my problems .... I spend more time with an 'oo' brush than with an airbrush ... so sometimes I do too much freehand dabbling.
I've done a bit of 'Trompe L'Oeil' on the wheels ... creating the effect of spokes just with paint. Happy enough with the result ... and it was quicker without any masking etc. ... but I do want to develop my airbrush skills when I can too.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: PeeTee on March 12, 2013, 04:07:28 PM
Tres bon Russ, it certainly does trick the eye, and is very subtly done. I hope to see the finished model in the flesh (so to speak :o) one of these days. Do you think you might give it a whirl at Port Meadow if the conditions are good this year?

Peter


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 12, 2013, 04:14:01 PM
Weather permitting ... and a couple of other things turning around as I'm hoping ... I will be whirling as much as possible Peter!  :)
I've been saying it for the last few years, but surely we deserve a good flying year this year?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 12, 2013, 04:37:32 PM
Awesome effect on the wheels Russ, looks very realistic.

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 13, 2013, 06:38:12 PM
Lost a day to a problematic job ... will be a 'bones only' display from me at the weekend at best.
What's worse is that the weather looks miserable for the weekend ... I won't travel if any real snow materialises  :(


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 15, 2013, 04:53:16 PM
I thought that the model needed some kind of engine detail ... I wish the kit scale rules were that additional detail should be ignored ... not penalised  :-\
I think the model might 'push itself out' of kit scale in the end .... shame, because the build is not true enough for open scale so this will be another model 'lost in space'.
Cannot complain really though .... I'm just doing what I want to do with the model.

Assuming that the model will need noseweight, I've not attempted to make the engine light.
The hub was turned first out of a resin material used for CNC machined moulds .... be interesting to see how it takes the knocks etc.
I then drilled the holes for the cylinders ... these are keyed in place with cocktail stick dowel as I find it easier to position small holes when drilling.
The cylinders are then centre drilled dowel over the cocktail stick.
Over these are drinking straw 'fins'.
The motor will come out when winding so the heads are short ... I put the whole lot back onto the lathe just to sand a little bit of clearance so it moves in and out of the cowl with no problem.




Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on March 15, 2013, 05:23:54 PM
Russ, this is wasted on Kit Scale!

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 15, 2013, 05:40:01 PM
I suppose the rules do allow for the things that I want to build if you pick a more 'sophisticated' kit? ... ie. one with all the details listed and part of the standard build.
In that respect it becomes more a case of picking the right kit for what you want to do.
The thing that bothers me about it is losing 5 points for each of the deviations (as I read the rules?) ... it gives you 20 shots max before you get a zero score! (or minus?)
As I have said before, I like kit scale but it I just think it needs 'tweaking' a bit. To me 'Kit Scale' should not have to equal 'Simple Scale' ... but at the same time neither should be particularly advantaged or disadvantaged.
The 'hyper-moan' warning light coming on so I'd better stop  ::)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 15, 2013, 05:42:57 PM
Beautiful Russ, but then I expect no less  8)

I have Lathe envy...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 15, 2013, 05:52:22 PM
Thanks Jon .. I've got two lathes! The other one is bigger and was largely unused for about 20 odd years!
I got offered the small blue one cheap (£60 I think) and I thought 'why am I buying this?' ... but I have used it regularly ... defies logic except that buying the smaller one coincided with buying the small chuck shown.
This is much more suited to modelling uses than the traditional woodworking chuck types I have I suppose.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 16, 2013, 07:42:39 AM
What's worse is that the weather looks miserable for the weekend ...

Russ, the forecast now looks as if the weather outside will be almost as good as inside!
http://www.xcweather.co.uk/forecast/impington


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 19, 2013, 06:20:26 PM
A bit more done on the dummy engine ... 'pushrods' in place now.
I've also made the block look a little more like a real Clerget ... but it's only meant to be a representation.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 03:46:06 PM
I picked up a couple of Dave Banks' pilots at the weekend ... both slightly different but hard to judge which would suit the triplane best.

I decided on the one that I have base coated with black paint.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 03:47:56 PM
I also started painting the 'engine' today.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 03:49:26 PM
As you can probably guess ... I do like messing about with the detail parts  ::)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
... and of course I could not resist the usual mock-up.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Monz on March 21, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
That's looking awesome Russ! How much does the pilot weigh?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on March 21, 2013, 04:31:15 PM
I'll get me coat...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 04:34:41 PM
Thanks Monique  :)

Not weighed the pilot but they are expanded polyurethane foam so not much ... you can also hollow them out quite a bit as the exterior 'skin' is quite hard.
Did you have a look at Dave Banks' pilots at Impington on Sunday? He was flying at the other end and on the other side to you. He had quite a stock of pilots with him at his table.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Monz on March 21, 2013, 04:39:08 PM
Oh, no I didn't see him there, or know about him. I shall Google...



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 21, 2013, 04:50:54 PM
Russ, are we going to have to call you Norman Stanley Fletcher after the indoor Nats?

On present evidence I think so!

I've not got round to sorting the Pilot out for my stalled Reggiane, does Dave normally attend the impington meetings?

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 04:56:36 PM
Monique, Andrew,

I think you can still only contact Dave by phone and post?
This link on Mike's site hould still be valid:

Quote
http://www.ffscale.co.uk/page6.htm

Penny not dropped on the 'Porridge' yet!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 04:58:52 PM
Forgot to say .... I have seen Dave at a few events lately but not every time.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 21, 2013, 05:13:01 PM
He got a five year stretch, as might you if you win  ;D


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 21, 2013, 05:22:38 PM
Aaaah! ... I nearly got there.

Nah .... if it's judged to the 'full letter of the law' it could end up as a zero pointer!
I might switch to open, but then it falls down on surfaces, rib spacings etc.etc.  :(
I had told myself to just build it as stock too ... so I've brought it on myself.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on March 22, 2013, 06:43:38 AM
Go for it Russ, remember that the flying marks are worth twice as much as the static, so you are still in with a good chance!

Thanks for use of your Lysander shot for my profile pic, btw

Andy


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 23, 2013, 07:40:35 PM
Thanks Andy ... I think I've got the bit between my teeth enough on this one to finish it.

No problem re. the photos ... glad to be of help.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 28, 2013, 07:51:13 PM
A bit more progress to report:

Added the sheeting to the forward fuselage.
Laid the UC up on a jig ... the holes are not as well aligned as hoped so there is a little twist in the assembly. Shouldn't take much to straighten it up though.
The photo shows the cowl being fixed to the rest of the fuselage ..... had a bit of a 'scare' shortly afterwards!  :o
The cowl angles back into the fuselage at the sides, so when the glue dried I started sanding ... only to realise that the rings towards the rear of the cowl were almost sanded through!
A quick panic later and I glued a 1/32" ring to the inside of the cowl ... hopefully this will stop the cowl disintergrating  :-\


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: skyraider on March 28, 2013, 10:10:43 PM
Looking good, Russ!

Skyraider


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Don McLellan on March 28, 2013, 11:41:49 PM
Another fantastic build thread Russ!!  Beautiful model.

Don


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Dave Crompton on March 29, 2013, 07:03:33 AM
Hi Russ,

looking very good indeed. Do you think you will have it finished for Walsall on the 7th??
 
Cheers, Dave. ;D


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 03:17:15 PM
Dave,

Still in the balance if I have overcooked this for kit scale ..... if I keep it as kit scale then there is still an outside chance  :-\


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 03:21:54 PM
Not at my workshop over Easter, so I decided to have a complete 'lash together' of all the bits I've done so far.

I tried a new method for me of doing the cockpit surround .... I've cut it out of mount board used for watercolour paintings.
I've had to soak it with glue to keep it together so sanding is a bit slow .... could look OK with a bit more shaping.

Missing this weekend building probably will put paid to a finish for Walsall next week  :(


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 29, 2013, 03:34:25 PM
For the cockpit surround, consider using fine silicone fuel tubing eg from Mike Woodhouse. Slit it and run it around the cockpit edge.
Bill


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 29, 2013, 03:36:59 PM
PS it's looking really nice, but I still think that peg position could be a killer.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 03:39:35 PM
Thanks Bill ... I have used silicon tube and electrical wire insulation before, but it was a case of wanting to do it there and then so I could progress but having nothing suitable to hand.
I don't know how I manage to combine slow building with impatience!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 03:41:50 PM
PS it's looking really nice, but I still think that peg position could be a killer.

Yes, another constraint of kit scale that I'm not too sure of  :-\


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 29, 2013, 03:51:23 PM
I think I would accept maybe losing a point or two on static in a competition you don't want to win, in return for having a model that flies well. Although if it flies well you might win anyway! This rule needs changing - it's perverse.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 04:24:11 PM
I must admit that just 'giving a good account of myself' comes before the desire to win so even though I don't mind losing points, having to watch the constraints in a class that is intended to avoid them does seem a little odd.
The fact that these constraints create a model that is less likely to make the jump to open scale only compounds this for me. I have had it in my mind to make this model something that can sit between the two classes, to see if kit scale can be used as a stepping stone to open  .... not sure if it can using one model?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 29, 2013, 04:59:12 PM
There is no reason why the triplane could not acquit itself well in open. I fly outdoors but indoor is the same as far as competition goes. If your model flies at all and qualifies, you beat half the entry. If it flies well, you rise to the top five. Then you find yourself alongside Knight, Crossley et al and things get harder. But before you get to that point, flying is everything. Terry Manley once told me that the mistake people make in contests is to try and 'build' a winner, with piles of detail, rather than concentrating on flying performance, and it's true.
A study of the open static scoring system will quickly show that some things - outline shapes, craftsmanship, complexity are important while others - colour accuracy - are not. To make the triplane competitive you would check the outlines, throw a few ribs in, then separate ailerons, elevators etc. And move the peg! But for that reason, you can't do well at both with the same model.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 29, 2013, 05:09:47 PM
Looking very cool Russ!


The fact that these constraints create a model that is less likely to make the jump to open scale only compounds this for me.

I agree. Which is why I'm putting moveable elevators and rudder on my Chippie  8)
I'd much rather that separate control surfaces/trim tabs etc were 'points neutral'. It's true that complexity is added if you NEED them to be competitive a la the open classes but trying to trim a vintage kit model designed for outdoors without trim tabs or moveable surfaces is bonkers. Neither easy for beginners nor does it point you in the direction of the open classes. It's not in the spirit of a beginners class to my mind, more like purism.

Rant over, sorry.... proceed.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Monz on March 29, 2013, 06:18:08 PM
Not to derail Russ' thread any further, but I think everyone is missing the point as pointed out by one of the Impington members during Andy's talk:

Build your models to have fun. Fly your models to have fun. Enter competitions to have fun. That is what it's all about, or supposed to be...

It's the camaraderie of flying together that should be deciding whether or not people enter, not where your motor peg is or if your control surfaces are hinged. If you want to enter KS, but feel your model needs a few tweaks to make it fly better and give you more enjoyment, then do it. Nobody wants to win KS anyway, so essentially there's nothing to lose. Is there?

Open class... Look at the progression this way: You get a simpler, less detailed model to fly well, then you progress to a more complicated, less detailed model to fly well, then you get a simple more detailed model to fly well all the while increasing your building AND flying skill level to where you can get a complicated well detailed model to fly well. But you're not going to get the latter to fly well if you haven't learnt how to get the simple model as described in KS rules to fly well by learning the basics first...

The KS class needs some fine tuning, but it's hardly perverse or purism...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Monz on March 29, 2013, 06:22:36 PM
Russ, great looking tripe.

Do what you want so that when it flies it makes you happy!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 29, 2013, 06:51:12 PM
I don't think trim (acetate) tabs are penalised are they?  - they may see your model stamped upon though  ;D

John, why does your chippie need moveable elevators and rudder?  the tail feathers are made from balsa, a rub and a tweak sees them deflected to trim anyhow?

Neither perverse or purism, just make the choice when you select the kit, or by loosing the points on the tweaks you make, isn't that agonising part of the "fun"?

Back to Russ's build.......it's looking excellent Russ, whatever route you Decide to take.  What is best is seeing your build coming on so nicely so quickly, I've not seen your builds come on this quick since I've been hanging around this forum.. I hope you find the momentum to push on to the finish line.....

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 06:55:22 PM
Thanks Monique.

People have made an effort to create these classes so the last thing I want to do is criticise.
You are never going to please everyone, but sometimes the rules can be nudged about for the better I think.
From a positive view, I like the open scale rules ... basically every thing you put into a model, flying or static, is rewarded. In open you are not bound to follow any instructions, plans, construction methods etc.
The better it is built (albeit in this case against the actual aircraft) and the better the model flies, the better it does.

I suppose things vary with a person's own particular 'mindset' .... mine is that I want to get as close a replica as possible to fly well. As such I would rather start by building something with as much detail etc. as possible and then hopefully get it flying. Building a guaranteed flyer does not do it for me quite so much if too much is sacrificed re. fidelity.

Don't worry about derailing this thread .... I have a history of wandering threads!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 29, 2013, 07:13:26 PM
Thanks Andrew .... it does worry me that I have several models that have stalled at precisely this stage, but I am hoping to be more settled in my building now.

I agree about choice of kit .... there must be a suitable kit for anyone's particular 'poison'? Trouble is, from my own approach, I would not want to buy a sophisticated kit and then finish it with coloured tissue.
I would rather a paint finish just be regarded the same as the dope (technically paint?) used on coloured tissue. That would be my first 'tweak' 
This is the wrangle I am having now with the Sopwith ... 'to paint or not to paint?'


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: skyraider on March 29, 2013, 10:35:26 PM
Russ,
   You can go either way. The real Prototype Sopwith was CDL with burnished metal panels and cowling. But what ever you think is best
will still make for a very nice model. Great job!!

Skyraider


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 30, 2013, 03:49:47 AM
Monique, I never said the KS class was perverse. I think it is pretty well spot on. However, given that the aim of the class is to get these things to fly, and that better propellors are allowed, it would seem a good idea to exempt the moving of the peg from the blanket 'no changes permissible' as well. It doesn't bother me; I would move the peg anyway, but some would be reluctant so to do. My use of the word 'perverse' infers that a specific rule for the peg exists but of course it doesn't, but I am struggling to think of a better word. Anyone can use a wire extension but I'd rather see 'motor peg' added to 'propeller and wheels'.

As I have said several times, I would hope people will build what they want, with whatever changes they want. The irony is that shifting the peg forward in that triplane will result in far more flying points than any deduction on static.

Just thought of a better, albeit hyphenated, word. How about counter-productive? So that final sentence would be 'The rule could be adjusted to exempt motor pegs, along with propellers and wheels because at the moment it might be counter-productive to the aims of the class.'

I am looking forward to seeing what actually happens this year. Personally I hope to see a wide variety of models. I will settle for qualifying.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on March 30, 2013, 04:18:38 AM
You know what, after consuming my breakfast egg, I think I will withdraw all my comments on changing the rule to exempt moving motor pegs. The rules really are spot on. All changes will be penalised but some of those changes will be rewarded with flying points. It will all even out - your choice.

I think i could have built a YHWM in the time spent generating all this persiflage.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on March 30, 2013, 04:47:07 AM
Well said Bill! I was about to put my twopenn'erth in on this one on similar lines, but you beat me to it. The point is, where do you draw the line on mods - built-up tails instead of solid ones, adding moveable flying surfaces, changing wing incidence, adding trim tabs, etc, etc. If we go that route, then we'll turn Kit Scale into another Open Class. As Bill so rightly says: "All changes will be penalised but some of those changes will be rewarded with flying points. It will all even out - your choice."

Russ - it seems to me that Kit Scale has achieved it's aim and pointed you in the direction of the Open Classes - simply said, you've outgrown it! Come and have a chat at the Nats and we can talk over your next Open Scale build. :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 30, 2013, 05:47:42 AM
It is a very good point that Bill arrives at in his last post.
I think the line is drawn at the right point Andy as you say .... My only question (at the end of the day it's not really a gripe) is the level of 'punishment' for putting a bit more effort into the build.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 30, 2013, 06:06:12 AM
Russ, if I had your artistic flair and skill (that pilot makes me green with envy for instance) then I'd be entering the open class anyhow.... There I've said it!

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 30, 2013, 07:42:58 AM
I'm sorry if my post last night kicked off the persiflage again. I've long ago stopped worrying about it and I'm just building the model I want to build. [It could have been better chosen for Kit Scale but that's my problem.]

Andrew, yes I could tweak and warp to trim but I just like the precision and reliability of moving a hinged surface or a trim tab.


The point is, where do you draw the line on mods - built-up tails instead of solid ones, adding moveable flying surfaces, changing wing incidence, adding trim tabs, etc, etc. If we go that route, then we'll turn Kit Scale into another Open Class.

Andy, I agree that this is the point especially as the judging is against the plan.

You have to draw the line somewhere but it needs to be drawn with the beginner in mind, that is after all the motivation behind the class. Making built-up tails instead of solid tails, hinging surfaces, even changing peg positions are fairly big mods that maybe a beginner might not wish to tackle. Trim tabs may be unsightly but there are very beginner-ish. What about removeable noseblocks? Covering compound curves in tissue (nose blocks, spats etc) requires more experience than painting them...

A lot of the discussion that the rule has generated seems to be because people are worrying about losing points in static at the expense what they would like to do for the flying. (It was in my case anyway.) I'm now happy to just concentrate on what I need to do to have a nice flying model and try to do a decent job on the finish.

I don't believe trimming indoors without some kind of adjustable surface is very conducive to beginners either. It would be nice if the line was drawn such that there was no conflict between sensible trimming and static penalties. If control surfaces/trim tabs were taken out of the judging entirely then the best flying and best finished model will win. And then you'd have to enter open anyway  ;D



(I'm sorry Russ, this is not the place to make my point  :-[ )

Jon


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 30, 2013, 08:38:58 AM
Nobody has answered the question, does anyone know?  I can't find it in the rules.... Are accetate trim tabs (rather than separate adjustable surfaces) penalised?

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on March 30, 2013, 08:56:06 AM
I can't find it in the rules.... Are accetate trim tabs (rather than separate adjustable surfaces) penalised?

It was in the 2012 rules Judges guide (p93 6.15.6.7 (e)) as an exception to the deduction
"Installation of artificial aids to stability other than manually adjustable trim tabs."

But the Judges guide has been removed for 2013 and it's now not mentioned.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on March 30, 2013, 10:27:48 AM
If you want a definitive answer to any questions on BMFA Rules or their interpretation, then send a formal request to a member of the respective committee. Their contact details are on the website.

Notwithstanding, I'm happy to give an informal, unofficial and non-attritutable interpretation here and I would say that any added trim tab not on the original plan would be penalised by the static judges in Kit Scale. However, Bill's comment is still good and highly applicable in this case:

"The rules really are spot on. All changes will be penalised but some of those changes will be rewarded with flying points. It will all even out - your choice."


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on March 30, 2013, 11:07:49 AM
Ok ta.

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on March 30, 2013, 02:08:25 PM
It is a very good point that Bill arrives at in his last post.
I think the line is drawn at the right point Andy as you say .... My only question (at the end of the day it's not really a gripe) is the level of 'punishment' for putting a bit more effort into the build.

Apols Rus, I missed your question earlier.

Kit Scale was conceived as a beginners class to encourage newcomers to have a go. As a consequence, as well as putting the emphasis on the flight score, it was decided that in static, anything extra that an 'expert' would add would be penalised, thus keeping the build as simple as possible. Whether or not the rules achieve that aim is a subject for debate, but that's the fundamental upon which the rules were built.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 30, 2013, 03:11:24 PM
Fair enough Andy ... to sum my own personal viewpoint up, I am fine with the penalties for 'Flight Enhancing Mods', it's just the penalties for 'Non Flight Enhancing Mods' that are purely in addition to a standard build as prescribed.
But I can certainly live with the current rules ... and if I couldn't, there are always the open classes as you say. 


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 30, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Unexpectedly went into work today after a change of plan .... did some work but did get tempted by the Sopwith again  :)

I had a go at making a prop boss with a method that has been spinning around in my mind for years now (no apologies for the pun  ::) )

I made a quick jig for drilling the holes .... this worked every bit as well as I hoped.
I decided to drill another set of holes ... the inner set to be left as holes ... the outer set to accept the 'bolts'.

The bolt heads use cocktail sticks pushed through the holes. The short end will be sanded to represent the bolt heads .... I'm hoping the other end will part without taking the 'head' with it!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 30, 2013, 03:53:34 PM
The drilling jig I used


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on March 30, 2013, 04:10:52 PM
Russ; lovely!

You really want the 5 year ban, don't you...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 30, 2013, 04:25:24 PM
I'd be happy just to see it flying Dan  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on March 30, 2013, 05:28:01 PM
Looking forward to seeing it finished on the 21st!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on March 30, 2013, 05:34:49 PM
OK ... I'll admit that I just read that as in the 21st! ... it will be finished this century .... before the 21st April I am hoping.
This one must fly before the day!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 02, 2013, 05:01:33 PM
The cowl seems OK with the extra 1/32" balsa added ... you can see this on the inside of the cowl in this shot .... and if you look closely you can see where it nearly went through at about the '2 o'clock' position!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: wordguy on April 03, 2013, 09:49:57 AM
I drew myself some plans for a P-nut tripe, but after looking at all those ribs, shelved them.  This build is making me rethink that hasty decision.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 03, 2013, 03:25:11 PM
I must admit that with me being a bit rusty, the wing ribs were a little hard to handle .... not really too much of a size drop to peanut though.
Look forward to seeing any progress if you do decide to go ahead  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 03, 2013, 04:20:15 PM
The cockpit surround made from mount board has not turned out too bad ....will probably have to go over it again a bit when the fuselage is covered.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 05, 2013, 04:06:37 PM
A quick trial of the 'specially coloured tissue' on the tailplane and then straight onto one of the more critical parts .... the cowl.

The messy look on the sheeting is 'specially coloured adhesive primer'  ::)  ;)

The camera flash possibly gives a more critical eye than when seen in normal light, but still happy enough with it.

I mentioned p*int earlier ... but I think I got away with it ....


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on April 05, 2013, 04:15:35 PM
Ahhh, I'm telling teacher ;D


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on April 05, 2013, 04:58:17 PM
I´d like to know more about the coaming method as I´ve no idea what it involves. In truth I think it looks very effective but seems to be at a larger scale. Is this a function of the technique?
Incidentally, when I was doing my diesel triplane I was surprised to find that the struts on the full size were only 7/8" thick!
Bill


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 05, 2013, 07:27:41 PM
Andrew .... the reply below didn't post earlier as I thought it had!
The whole 'examining board' are here! .... it's a bit like showing a ref photos of a foul you have committed.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 05, 2013, 07:37:20 PM
Bill,
The kit is only 'semi-scale' if rib spacings etc. are taken into account .... I've gone for 'effect' rather than 'fidelity'.
As I mentioned before, it was something I had to hand and fancied trying. It is basically just thick high quality cardboard ... once I got it down to a certain size it started de-laminating so I had to keep flooding it with glue or sanding sealer to hold it together. It was proving tricky to sand the 'P' section I was shooting at, so after a point I just tried to achieve the effect with paint (the dark line and the suggestion of the fixings). Happy enough with the result for a 15" model.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on April 06, 2013, 02:11:17 AM
Russ, I wasn´t criticising your coaming; I just wanted to find out the technique and what its limitations were as to size.
Not sure I would describe the model as semi scale though. If that gun falls off anywhere near me, it´s gone!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 06, 2013, 04:47:42 AM
No problem Bill .... without wanting to whittle on again, I think the rules are 'getting to me'!
I am building the kit as I want to build it and to a large degree how it is instructed to be built. As I progress I am beginning to feel the 'weight' of my actions .... I almost feel as though I am creating some kind of 'Pariah'. Most detailing has been done freehand and by eye more than measurement because it is a mostly fruitless exercise with regards to kit scale. I think that might sound like I'm moaning again!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 06, 2013, 02:56:19 PM
This is going to look really good. I still need to put coaming around my tripe's cockpit. I've got a bit of brown insulation ready, but it is surprisingly heavy! It's interesting to see different materials being tried to good effect.
Plus I still need to spawn a pilot...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 06, 2013, 03:45:24 PM
A few years ago I built a pistachio Umbrellaplane and needed a lightweight coaming for the cockpit. In the end, I selected some light 1/32 balsa, cut a circle to the size of the outer edge of the coaming using a compass cutter with a new blade, formed the edge of the disc of balsa to the shape of the edge of the coaming, cut the inner edge of the coaming with the compass cutter, glued it in place around the cockpit- it fit nicely around the cockpit as the circle could be coaxed into an ellipse - then I finished the inside of the coaming after the glue was dry. The result was quite effective. If I find a picture of the model, I'll post it.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 06, 2013, 03:58:55 PM
Fat Dragon,
I was wondering today if you have flown your triplane yet? ... you must have heard the cogs whirring!



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 06, 2013, 03:59:51 PM
Andy,

I think I can picture what you are saying ... would be good to see a photo if you have one.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 06, 2013, 04:14:45 PM
Plenty of tissue going on now ... another couple of days and I might have been ready for tomorrow's event  :-\ (without markings)

Starting to look a proper 'little brown job' as they say in birdwatching circles.
As you can see by the offcuts, I am covering the model with coloured tissue ..... thing is that I have stained it myself with paint.
I won't be trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, so it will be up to the judges if this is deemed a painted finish. Just trying to keep in the spirit of the rules AND give a more scale-like finish than the weak khaki colour of the 'raw' tissue.

A few 'dips and wrinkles' ... and I hadn't noticed just how many little holes there were in the tissue ... but it is passable for me.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 06, 2013, 04:30:39 PM
Had a look at my (electronic) archive and found the attached of the Umbrellaplane. Unfortunately it doesn't show the coaming and the model, being unsuccessful, met it's demise many moons ago.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 06, 2013, 04:36:27 PM
My tripe has felt the air beneath its wheels, but it was literally a powered 'hop'. I haven't managed to get into the sports hall for a decent session yet. Time is running out, so I shall be desperately seeking an opportunity to fly next week.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 06, 2013, 04:53:50 PM
FD,
Getting chance to fly is the big thing .... today was the first good day in a while for flying outside, but I didn't get chance with anything.

Quote
found the attached of the Umbrellaplane

Not seen that one before .... must have been a while back. Interesting aircraft!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 08, 2013, 04:24:14 PM
Not far off moving onto the wing covering now ... though I have got to re-cover the tail fin after causing a tear.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: rgroener on April 09, 2013, 01:28:23 AM
Holy Moly, thats a great looking plane. Cant wait to see it finished.

Roman


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: GAJouette on April 09, 2013, 06:57:40 PM
  Russ,
Outstanding project to date my friend. I'm looking forward to following this thread.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 10, 2013, 05:17:31 AM
Thanks  :)

A bit more progress yesterday ... started covering the wings


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: DaddyO on April 10, 2013, 05:29:58 AM
The last coming I did for a similar sized model I used a strip of blue foam sanded to section and painted thickly with acrylics. I'll see if I can find a photo. . .
Paul


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 10, 2013, 12:37:43 PM
Pine for the struts? Nice


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 10, 2013, 02:25:18 PM
Pine for the struts? Nice

Not quite  ;) Remember, walls have ears!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 11, 2013, 07:47:58 PM
A quick rough assembly trial before I cover the top and bottom wing .... I wanted to see how difficult it could prove to align everything.

Things won't sit quite how they should but it was close(ish) and for the most part didn't need tape to keep things about right.
I can't see too many problems so I'll carry on covering.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 11, 2013, 07:54:36 PM
Paul,
 
Sorry, missed your post ... foam would probably have been better, but I'm trying to be 'foam free' on this one.
I don't know whether it's the problems I had with my all foam Fiat pistachio that has temporarily put me off foam!

Fat Dragon,

The struts are cedar ... probably cost me some more points hence the previous comment  ::) 


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: GAJouette on April 11, 2013, 08:33:55 PM
   Russ,
Excellent progress my friend,she's shaping up to be a real beauty. Have you decided on her marking yet?
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 12, 2013, 03:20:29 AM
Struts look good in 'real' wood. What's a few points matter versus being happy/ satisfied/ proud of your model. Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on April 12, 2013, 05:56:45 AM
Russ,

That isn't Cedar!  it looks like very dense balsa to me! are you sure? ;)

Keep going mate, she looks fantastic! ;D

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 12, 2013, 03:22:20 PM
Thanks all  :)

Gregory,
I think this latest progress photo might answer your question .... It's the Shuttleworth Collection's 'Dixie II'

I have used white decal paper ... got on with it better than last time I tried.
Not perfect by any means ... but time is running out so everything will have to be used at the 'first shot' now.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: dmar836 on April 12, 2013, 04:24:34 PM
Killer build.  Nice work!

Dave


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on April 12, 2013, 04:33:00 PM
Looking great Russ!  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 12, 2013, 04:48:52 PM
Thanks ..... starting to get an idea how much it will weigh.
I'm hoping for something around 33g to 36g ... but how much noseweight will be needed I don't know.....

I'm sticking with the rearward motor peg ... I've actually not had that good results with models that I have moved the peg forward.
My Oo La La particularly just does not fly the same ... could be just it's age though?
Another consideration with this is that moving the motor peg forward results in a peg that is about three times longer ... just viewing the peg in isolation, this means the peg itself would have a greater moment in the forward position.
Couple this with an inevitably more bunched motor and I'm not sure if it's worth doing sometimes .... or should I say, not quite the advantage one might expect?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: GAJouette on April 12, 2013, 05:29:40 PM
  Russ,
Ah Dixie II, great choice my friend. Seeing the brown color my first thought was Brown Bread which was one of the Prototypes after arriving in France. Keep up the excellent work.
Regards,
Gregory Jouette


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on April 12, 2013, 07:57:14 PM
It looks great, Russ. I really like that mellow brown finish.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 13, 2013, 07:15:31 AM
I normally figure on a flying weight of three times the bare airframe before covering. Do you have a value for the bare weight, Russ, it would be interesting to see if my theory works on other people's models.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 13, 2013, 04:48:07 PM
Andy,

I have been weighing at random moments throughout the build ... usually I only scrawl the figures down on wood or paper lying about.
I'll see if I can find a list that makes sense! (you can see the odd scribble in this photo)

I seem to remember each wing panel of the six being about 0.9g uncovered and 1.4g covered.
The last complete (bar prop) weight was up to about 26g ... but that was partially covered.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 13, 2013, 04:49:34 PM
..... the last photo shows the roundel just after applying - so it's still fairly wrinkly.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 13, 2013, 05:47:47 PM
Cutting it fine, Russ! That's usually my forte...

Cheers,

Dan.

P.S Looking awesome, though...!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 13, 2013, 05:58:31 PM
Dan,

I honestly think this is most ahead of the game I have ever been! I think I was assembling my Pensuti triplane after midnight on the morning of the Nats  :-[
I also got my Reg 2000 at Impington towards the end of March 2008 and had it ready for the April 2008 Nats .... my quickest scale build ever I think (without sounding like a plug, it was a great kit to build though).

That said .... I do want to see this in the air in some way before the day .... hopefully not on the end of my boot though!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 13, 2013, 06:19:11 PM
What with new jobs/housemove etc. I've only just got it together enough to renew NMAC/BMFA membership and send my Nats entry off. Hope it all gets sorted in time. If not, at least I've escaped the miniscule possibility of the 5 year ban...

Cheers and see you next weekend,

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 13, 2013, 06:24:03 PM
Looking forward to it  :) ... surprised you have had time at all with all that going on.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 16, 2013, 03:57:50 PM
Beginning to feel as though I am getting there ... I think it's a subconcious deliberate move to leave the top wing uncovered, so that I do not get tempted to start throwing it around until the rest is finished  ::)

The edges on the decals I made started to break away in places ... but that's how they are stopping for the weekend.
I left the blue a little lighter than 'indigo' in case the dark background had an affect .... it means the tail markings are slightly lighter as a result, but not too offensive in the flesh!
 


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: GAJouette on April 16, 2013, 04:11:18 PM
  Russ,
Outstanding Tripe my friend. Reading through your thread I can see I've got have one of these beauties. Thanks again for this thread.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on April 16, 2013, 04:31:05 PM
Lurvely Russ.....


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: wordguy on April 16, 2013, 04:47:24 PM
Smiled - no, I laughed out loud - when I saw your "prop nuts."  Lily gilding?  HECK NO!  Charming...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 16, 2013, 04:49:40 PM
Gilding still to be applied!  ;)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: wordguy on April 16, 2013, 05:13:50 PM
Yes...  Couldn't help but notice the lack of brass "scuff guards" on the prop tips (to say nothing of the nails that hold the guards to the prop...).  And by the way, though it was tough to see in the photo, may I assume that the prop nuts are safety-wired?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 16, 2013, 05:17:23 PM
On a more serious note Wordguy ... the prop boss was an exercise in something that I had wanted to try for a long while.
I've just realised that I did post a photo of the jig earlier in the thread, so I will not repeat ... but it was the jig I was trying.
I was going to 'fill in behind' but it is not intended as a scale prop (not a requirement for the class it is to fly in, but would have been for the open class I was still contemplating)..... but the boss was intended for one.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 16, 2013, 05:20:34 PM
Posted at the same time ..... yes, the scale prop I was thinking of was going to have it all. This one might still have the safety wiring.
I appreciate the humour, but I can only answer honestly that it was indeed my intention!  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: wordguy on April 16, 2013, 05:26:06 PM
If I had a hat, I'd tip it respectfully.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 16, 2013, 05:44:14 PM
Why, thank you Sir .... maybe not the scuff guard nails then ::)
I was thinking of 'elevating' this model to Open Scale .... to reach anywhere near the standard of a model Sopwith Triplane that Divs masters produces I would be looking at the following.

'Lift here' and arrows to fuselage.
Circular Sopwith logos to struts.
'Palmer Aero Cord' applied to the tyres.
All strut 'brackets'.
Cockpit detail.
Scale rib spacing and riblets.
Full paint finish in a more scale-like finish.
Scale prop  ::)
All strut 'brackets'.
Rigging.
Stitching.
Separate control surfaces.
etc. etc.

This is just a 'stand-off' scale model by comparison and I have treated it as such .... but I do intend to do a 'fully gilded' model one day.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on April 17, 2013, 02:43:02 AM
Russ
If that model were to be entered in Open scale, I think you could be surprised at how high up it could finish  -certainly relative to Div's SE. but it would need two things. Firstly, more important than anything else on your list, and easiest to fix, is to look carefully at the outlines, especially wingtips, tail shape. Just look at the K factors for the outlines. Even more important is to trim the model well, for a wide circle and straight take off. That would take you straight into the top five where you will be facing Crossley et al.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on April 17, 2013, 03:39:30 AM
This may be a daft question, but can you enter the same model for both Kit Scale and Open?

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on April 17, 2013, 04:57:18 AM
Not a daft question - yes. But of course the documentation requirements are totally different


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 17, 2013, 12:35:36 PM
I agree with both Bill's recent comments - esp look closely at the rules and see where the marks are concentrated, then concentrate your own efforts in that area.

Back in the 1980s I twice entered a model in multiple events, mainly to see if it was possible. My original Peanut Lacey had a nose block that could be changed for a CO2 pod, so I entered it in Peanut and Open Rubber at the 1987 Scale Indoor Nats and Peanut, Open Rubber and CO2/Electric at the BMFA Scale Indoor meeting of November 1987. My ABC Robin had a similar system and was entered in CO2/Electric and Open Rubber in the 1988 Scale Indoor Nats.

It is possible, but I'd never do it again! The problem is that the model spends twice (or three times) as much time on the judges tables which leaves little time available for trimming and/or flying in the competitions, especially when it has to fly in several! It was a nightmare constantly retrieving and giving models back to the judges, carefully checking the flying control positions and praying that the trim was OK before each launch.

Separate models for separate comps is what I recommend!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: billdennis747 on April 17, 2013, 01:38:22 PM
Yes Andy, but seeing a Lacey fly four times, three times was a treat I shall treasure always!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 17, 2013, 01:45:28 PM
Ah, thanks Bill....you know I only did it for you!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 17, 2013, 04:49:01 PM
Another trial fit with most things covered now and the majority of markings done.
Alignment is not too bad, but will need a bit of alteration. I'll probably make up an alignment jig if I have time.

Never been a big fan of decals, but was impressed as ever with Mike Stuart's models at Walsall. He has used white decal paper for a lot of the markings.
Still not a big fan of 'homemade' decals, but feel I have climbed the learning curve a bit with them this time .... an even bigger fan of Mike Stuart now though for the job that he makes with them!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Dave Crompton on April 18, 2013, 09:32:29 AM
Hi Russ,
looking very, very nice indeed!! Looking forward to seeing it at close quarters on Sunday.
Dave.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 18, 2013, 06:41:36 PM
Cheers Dave .... I'm happy with the earlier bits, but as usual time is catching up with me and some of the later work could be better.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: PeeTee on April 19, 2013, 08:48:35 AM
Russ

It looks great, and I'm sure you'll finish it 'just in time' :D Best of luck on Sunday, and I look forward to seeing you at the other Nats.

Peter


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 03:54:31 PM
Thanks Peter ... nearly there!
As usual, something got me ... I ran out of the spray acrylic varnish I was using to seal the decals with just the upper roundels to do  :(
Hopefully I can get them sealed up and applied tomorrow.

Pretty well just the UC to finish now, but temptation got a hold of me and within minutes of having the wings all glued up I marched off to a 'secluded' part of the country estate I work on.
The strong winds have now dropped, but it was still a bit breezy so I tried to find a sheltered spot just for what would normally be the 'mattress glide'!
Expecting the worst as you do, I was delighted to see a nice slow glide straight off the board ... even with a freewheeling prop!

I still did a 'proper' photo session just in case I don't get chance again.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 03:59:32 PM
The UC is still just tacked together, but won't take much more time I hope.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on April 19, 2013, 04:00:50 PM
Wow she's lovely Russ! Kudos given  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 04:06:34 PM
Cheers Jon.

As you can see in this photo, the model is still basically finished in coloured tissue .... not the usual Esaki I would normally use either.
The tissue is not pulled that taut .... I think my workplace is dryer than my modelling workshop, but I'm not taking the chance of it 'pringling' once in the hall (as has happened with a couple of duration models there)

The wing alignment is better than when first laid up ... but I would concede that it's not still 100%


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on April 19, 2013, 04:21:19 PM
Delightful Russ, 'Nuff said!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on April 19, 2013, 05:29:03 PM
Russ, that's lovely!  The list of potentially banned guys just got longer.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
I think that list is about 25 strong this year Pete?! ... I can honestly say that I will be very happy if I get it flying well ... the position can take care of itself.



I used cedar for the struts as mentioned. I've worked with cedar a lot lately making a few bee hives etc. When breaking up the scraps I noticed that thin strips were quite flexible and could almost be bent double before snapping sometimes.
The first trial I did was using a more red part of the red cedar ... the ones here are from lighter stuff that later I found to be a little more brittle  :-\ Still less tendency to snap than balsa though I think ... be interesting to see how they do hold up


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Monz on April 19, 2013, 05:57:51 PM
Really gorgeous Russ!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 06:08:08 PM
Tonight's Teaser!

The model had a pretty good glide straight off the board without any rubber on board. I didn't try putting in the rubber to see how much nose weight I would need to add to get the CG back in the right place.

The rubber motor that comes with the kit weighs 3.5g

The length of 'motor stick' in front of the desired CG is 35mm
The length of 'motor stick' behind the desired CG is 170mm!

How much weight to be added at 50mm in front of the desired CG to compensate for the addition of the motor?
Be interesting to see if I ... or anyone else who cares to have a look .... have got it estimated right.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 19, 2013, 06:11:04 PM
Sorry Russ; I've just finished my 4th bottle of cider and advanced maths is beyond me for the evening. I'd guess at "a bit"...!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 06:14:27 PM
Excused!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on April 19, 2013, 06:22:40 PM
4.7g? If I've understood the question correctly...


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 06:25:36 PM
Exactly the same as I got Jon  :)
I did actually enjoy applied maths at school though.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 19, 2013, 06:33:42 PM
I might go for a slightly lighter motor then ... but worst case it looks like it will be 33.4 + 4.7 ie. 38.1 g
A bit over the 36g I was hoping for but not too bad. There's about 75 sq. in. of 'exposed' wing area.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: ironmike on April 19, 2013, 07:23:30 PM
Great looker Russ. One of my favorite WW1 subjects.
Quote
I also enjoyed the "moments" exersize
Concur with 4.68 g


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on April 19, 2013, 08:03:36 PM
I did actually enjoy applied maths at school though.
I might have enjoyed it too, if only the maths in question were being applied to problems like how much nose weight to put on a Sopwith Triplane!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 20, 2013, 05:24:36 AM
Hi Russ - where does your Tripe balance?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Phugoid on April 21, 2013, 03:28:16 PM
Russ your special prize was deserved, and alongside Pete Fardell's got the best Oooh and ahhh of the day, and by far you got the loudest cheer from the the spectators and competitors alike...

Cheers mate.

Andrew


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 21, 2013, 03:43:50 PM
Great model, Russ! You certainly deserved the prize for sheer persistence in getting it trimmed. That last flight got one of the biggest rounds of applause of the day.

Good day for us all!

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 21, 2013, 04:44:35 PM
Well done Russ!
Rich


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 21, 2013, 05:21:32 PM
Thanks to Jon and yourself for your help - I don't think I would have patched the model up if it hadn't been for your help.
That rearward motor peg did give the problems Bill predicted. The peg position might stay the same but I have a GM63 or electric motor that might find it's way into the model!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on April 21, 2013, 05:25:18 PM
It was such a shame that you bust the motor, it was going very nicely just before that. Glad you got it settled down in time for a decent qualifying flight today.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 21, 2013, 06:21:14 PM
Well done today Russ. The dogged persistence you showed in getting your model flying for that last official scoring flight produced well deserved applause and the special prize. I have to say that it epitomised what Scale Indoor Modelling is all about! Thank You!

Andy


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 21, 2013, 07:07:17 PM
Thanks Andy .... I would recommend that prospective entrants learn from this, that it is perhaps wise to a little more prepared!
I was going to excuse myself with the disruption and damage caused by the motor break I had, but then I thought about the blast tube still sitting in the car .... preparation is key!

I thought it was as good an event as it can be today .... a big thanks to all involved in the organisation and running of the event.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Ian Melville on April 22, 2013, 01:51:01 AM
Russ
If that model were to be entered in Open scale, I think you could be surprised at how high up it could finish  -certainly relative to Div's SE. but it would need two things. Firstly, more important than anything else on your list, and easiest to fix, is to look carefully at the outlines, especially wingtips, tail shape. Just look at the K factors for the outlines. Even more important is to trim the model well, for a wide circle and straight take off. That would take you straight into the top five where you will be facing Crossley et al.


I Noticed that Div and Richard were absent this year, hope all is well in their camp.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: dmar836 on April 22, 2013, 10:12:26 AM
Now wait. Was there not a video camera in the whole lot.
He rest of us want to see this!
Dave


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 22, 2013, 11:24:58 AM
Dave,

Not sure if anyone got a video of the last flight? ... that was still a hand launch, but the only one where the model is beginning to behave a little better.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 22, 2013, 12:31:30 PM
After a period of eight years of entering the Nats off and on, I feel as though my 'apprenticeship of pain' is about served!
I've always took the perhaps more foolhardy route of picking trickier subjects for a couple of reasons.

The first and main reason is that I am attracted to subjects that you would rush out of your house to view if they flew overhead .... in my case that does cover a lot of aircraft, but you know what I mean.

Secondly, I am a great admirer of those that have the 'bottle' to take on the more difficult and intricate subjects and perform in front of people at events like the Nats .... ultimately this is what I would like to do once my 'bottle' has been built up!
You have only got to watch Peter Smart with his Lancaster, or George with his museum piece DH9, etc. to know what I mean.
Don't get me wrong, I admire anyone just for turning up and entering.
I think it's taken this much time for me even contemplate the open classes because I was uneasy about performing directly in front of a crowd.
Kit Scale has raised it's profile that much now that the difference is now small?
It was great to see Dan for winning kit scale with a more challenging subject.

Watching Graham with his Fairchild and I have started to question my perception of 'challenging' however!
To get a flight score of over 1800 is a challenge ..... full stop!

Hoping to enter in anything and everything I can next year .... and perhaps try to think of points as the challenge more than the aircraft type?


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Graham Banham on April 22, 2013, 01:23:57 PM
Go for it Russ, and everyone else contemplating the Open classes too!

My observations at a superbly organised and attended Nats is that from a flying performance perspective alone, kit scale is in many cases at least on a par with open.

The perceived kit scale to open 'gap' doesn't actually exist: every model trims with the same techniques, and the only differing factor between the two is really the time and detail required. I mention this because looking at the kit scale entries at the weekend (the triplanes and Dan's SE5 spring to mind, although there were many more), even this 'gap' has never been narrower.

The jump to open really now is as Neil Armstrong said: 'one small step'

Fingers crossed for a 2 dayer next year.

  


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 22, 2013, 02:00:58 PM
It was the first time I went for the Saturday evening at this year's event Graham ... really enjoyed the opportunity.
It wouldn't be too be to big a leap to go for the two days if available.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 23, 2013, 07:36:37 PM
Now that the dust has settled, I have to say that I was actually quite pleased with the Triplane at the weekend.
After the motor break on the Saturday night, I all but gave up ... the rear of the fuselage looked quite damaged for a start and the cowl bulkhead had been smashed.
I was still repairing the model at 2 in the morning, with just the half hour trimming session to look forward to.
I added a bit more downthrust and took off a bit of noseweight in case I had overcooked the downthrust, or hoped that it didn't need so much.
I had been warned by Paul Briggs that it might need a lot of downthrust ... needless to say he was right.
Earlier trimming flights were made ROG .. but with the model stalling once up.
The model had a nice glide without the rubber motor, as I mentioned previously. The weight then was 33.5g
I added the 3.5g motor and the 4.5g noseweight we all predicted. Weight now up to 41.5g.
As I said, the model would ROG then.
I measured the model when I got home .... 52g ! It would not ROG at this weight .... and a stronger motor would just have meant more and more nose weight.
I knew I had to stick with a hand launch just to get something in the bag at least.
On reflection, the motor peg position was every bit as horrific as Bill predicted. I might move the peg forward first and try it, but I am really tempted to put my GM63 in it
If I can get the trimmed weight back to 45g I think it will be a different beast .... looking at Pete's video, the initial climb away before the stall looks really nice. I love to see it carry on climbing!
 
 


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 27, 2013, 04:29:13 PM
Exactly a week already since I broke the motor on the Saturday night trimming session ..... and tonight the wind has dropped.
The first time I have been 'up the green' at the end of the road to fly for ages! It has perhaps a smaller distance fence to fence than the Nottingham hall.
I wound the motor up and trotted off up the road with my lad ... who was going to try and video the triplane in the dark!
It set off well, but a slight breeze set it stalling slightly again .... might need yet more noseweight.
The first circuit also tightens so that I find myself near the centre of the flying circle after half a circuit .... a bit more right thrust might cure that?
Delighted to see it flying like that ... it's earned it's ticket to Old Warden now. Just hope we get some calm weather!

I will post the video if it's worth watching .... quite dark as you might expect .... in the dark!

Tempted to get my Zep Lindau covered just in white to try at Old Warden too .... the Fw190 might be too much to ask, but the big 'catch-up' has begun!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 27, 2013, 04:36:38 PM
Yeah! How can something so trivial in the grand scheme of things be so satisfying and so much sheer fun?! That's why we do it, I suppose...

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 27, 2013, 04:37:43 PM
Yeah ... and no dog cr*p on my shoes either  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 27, 2013, 04:45:41 PM
Bonus! Way back when, I built a Moorhouse Puffin which ended up in a fresh, liquid cowpat at the end of it's one and only flight. Cleaning it would have been more trouble than just building a new one.

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 27, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
Nice!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 27, 2013, 04:52:11 PM
No it wasn't! It was all I could do to break the poor Telco out without throwing up...

Hope you're not eating!

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Ian Melville on April 27, 2013, 08:15:12 PM
Bonus! Way back when, I built a Moorhouse Puffin which ended up in a fresh, liquid cowpat at the end of it's one and only flight. Cleaning it would have been more trouble than just building a new one.

Dan.
I had a Mercury Swan hit a cow up the a***. Before we rescued it the herd had managed a few licks of the fresh dope. Not a pretty sight so we cremated what would still burn. The Swan, not the cow!!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on April 28, 2013, 05:18:08 AM
Cow pats can be very interesting. I once dissected one with my son and discovered all sorts of interesting wildlife.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 28, 2013, 01:08:20 PM
That's this thread turned to c......  ::)

Only myself to blame!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: danmellor on April 28, 2013, 01:12:52 PM
Sorry Russ!

I'm highly skilled in the art of lowering the tone of absolutely anything... It's a rare talent and I make full use of it wherever possible.

Dan.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 28, 2013, 01:15:47 PM
No problem really Dan ... just having fun with the 'wordplay'  ::)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 28, 2013, 02:00:11 PM
Salvaged a few seconds of yesterday's 'night flying'  ::)
Not touched the trim since the last flight at Nottingham, so was quite pleased that it flew in the slight breeze ... though it did get a bit 'swoopy' still

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1im5fonkSI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1im5fonkSI)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on April 28, 2013, 02:08:00 PM
Do you have any problem with UFO reports in your part of the world Rus? ;)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on April 28, 2013, 02:13:39 PM
Funny you should say that .... years ago I was flying a model hot air balloon from the local field at the parent's house. The police arrived at the field saying they had received 4 calls .... one claiming they had seen a UFO, another saying that it was a balloon with no basket and all the people must be dead  :-[
It was only a bigger version of what would now be called a Chinese Lantern.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on May 01, 2013, 05:52:49 AM
Hey Russ,

A couple of trimming questions from the giant leap thread:

What incidence does it have on the tail? The WW Widgeon has positive tail incidence (negative decalage) and that has a similar high drag centre with the parasol wing. I heard that someone (Bernie IIRC?) had built it with the normal 3 degrees negative on the tail but it had then needed massive downthrust.

So is there any scope for reducing the decalage? Although this alone would increase the trim speed, if you also remove noseweight you will maintain the speed but reduce longitudinal (pitch) stability.

This will depend on where the current CG is. It's possible that the combination of too much decalage and too much noseweight is giving you the power stall from excessive longitudinal stability. The model will try and fly at one speed and any extra thrust causes it to nose up. After a point just adding more and more noseweight will exacerbate the power stall.


One other thing: it looks like it's flying uncoordinated, ie slipping in the turn (not the only model doing this on Sunday!) I think you would get less phugoidy flights with more left rudder and some wash in (trim tab or aileron deflection?) on the left wing. The positive turn should put excess power into the turn and avoid the stall and slip pattern. The coordinated turn would also reduce drag.

I think your lower pitched prop idea is a good one, especially with a draggy tripe, but it may need a reduction in power (thinner motor?) too. What prop do you have on there? I'd be quite interested to see how Prop Picker assesses it.

All this is a stab in the dark without looking at the plan or specifics of the model of course....


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on May 01, 2013, 06:31:53 AM
Just nipped in so a quick reply for now.
I will move the peg/ reduce weight first. Only earlier flights had bad sideslip - for a tripe I am fairly happy with it in that respect. I avoid rudder as much as I can - it was part of the problem I observed with your Beagle at one point (the rudder turning into down elevator. The down thrust I am using is not huge so I would accept a little more. I agree though - my Piets need a little positive on the tail


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on May 01, 2013, 06:57:29 AM
A lovely calm day and puzzled by your 'un-coordinated' comment I have had to nip up the green. A lovely flight reaching about 30' high and over 20 seconds with a steady descent! Just a tiny bit more weight added. Hope to get a vid in the light tonight! ..... Then in the box for  Old Warden! Suddenly happy  :)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on May 01, 2013, 07:24:18 AM
Russ, sorry, all I had to go on was Rich's video of your first(?) flight?

Went back to the night video you posted and it does look better (from what I can see)
Glad it's working, look forward to more vids.

Yes the Beagle was very sensitive to rudder, it was either opening up too much or spiralling in!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on May 01, 2013, 04:16:50 PM
Sorry Jon, yes, the earlier flight in the video was when the downthrust was increased but some noseweight removed in case it wanted to 'doff in'.

I must admit that I do like a more challenging model to trim ... I have 'easy trim' models sat in boxes once they have been sorted. I think I just enjoy the buzz of constant failure  ;)

Easy as Bostonians can be to trim, they certainly always seem to be a challenge to fly well at Impington in the narrow hall minus nets, minus tables, width available!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on May 05, 2013, 04:07:28 PM
The wind dropped again this evening .... that's at least twice this year!  ::) A vintage year already, compared to last year especially.

Another run up to the green, this time with my wife's phone camera.

Just under 700 winds on this I think.
Watch for the cat at the end of the video! .... this cat is not afraid of hunting my models!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-5YaqdXVKA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-5YaqdXVKA)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Rich Moore on May 05, 2013, 04:33:10 PM
Looks great!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on May 05, 2013, 04:36:16 PM
Perfect!  8)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on May 05, 2013, 04:42:47 PM
Not going to mess with it for the outdoor season, but it looks like it could do with a tad more right thrust and a little left rudder for indoors .... bit tight on the first circuit and opening up at the end.
If I can get the duration up and we get a calm evening at the free flight nats I might make up the numbers in one of the events ran by Bill Dennis (is the second event the one for any scale model?)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: GAJouette on May 06, 2013, 11:20:23 AM
  Russ,
Great flying video clip my friend.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on January 02, 2014, 04:19:04 PM
I decided to have a look over the Triplane for the first time in a while today.
I thought I would analyse things with an eye to making a few changes.
I spent over an hour picking out the blu-tack nose weight ..... this turned out to be over 12 grams!
The weight had gone up from just over 30 grams empty to over 52 grams with rubber and balanced to fly.
If my calculations are correct, I may be able to get a flying weight of around 40g ..... I'll let you know how when I find I can actually do it!
If I can't ... this thread will remain quiet!
 


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Don McLellan on January 02, 2014, 06:27:32 PM
Hi Russ,

Somehow I missed the video of your triplane in flight.  A very nice flight!  And you are exceptionally brave:  there are just waaay too many things to run into when flying that model outside.

Looking forward to some more flight vids (even if the model is more than 40 grms  :D)


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on January 02, 2014, 06:48:40 PM
Thanks Don .... I'm in the process of fitting a GM63 CO2 motor that I am hoping will give the advantage I have mentioned.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on January 03, 2014, 02:52:58 PM
A simple and quick conversion for a start to see if the model performs any better with the GM63 motor.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Don McLellan on January 03, 2014, 03:31:29 PM
Looks very nice Russ.  Very interested in hearing how it flies.

Don


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on January 05, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
Enjoyed a busy club indoor meeting at Bushfield today ..... pleased to say that the CO2 conversion for the triplane was a success  :)

It was a fairly cold and damp day so when the motor was not producing as much power as expected I put it down to this.
The model was flying OK from the start .... I just had to adjust for a turn. None of the early flights were much more than ten seconds though.
Flying with Pete Iliffe he has remarked on many occasions how important it is to keep the motor well oiled ... with this in mind I fetched the oil from the car and gave the motor a good oiling.
Next flight the model very nearly hit the ceiling! It was now producing far too much power. Playing around with the charge and the motor setting, but nothing really with the model, it was beginning to fly like this .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swqrAB-TRoA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swqrAB-TRoA)

Pretty happy at the result!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on January 05, 2014, 05:04:03 PM
From what I saw this afternoon, the model was transformed.....or to put it another way, it looked just like the real thing. Well done!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Yak 52 on January 05, 2014, 05:07:51 PM
Nice one Russ! Shame you didn't get video of that post oiling flight  8)

Next flight the model very nearly hit the ceiling!

Nearly hit about 5 times you mean  ;D quite a heartstopper but you're a jammy beggar  ;D
Perfect greaser of a landing too.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Pete Fardell on January 05, 2014, 06:14:55 PM
Brilliant, Russ! Well done, and how nice when a plan comes together. Suddenly the CO2 conversion option looks tempting for all sorts of things.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Don McLellan on January 05, 2014, 07:17:12 PM
Very, very nice Russ!!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on January 06, 2014, 06:21:13 AM
Thanks all  :)

Still a little phugoid and sideslip, but I'm really happy with the transformation.

I did still leave my 'proper ' video camera at home - though I did take the camera bag!


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: tross on January 06, 2014, 07:31:15 AM
Thanks for posting that Russ. ;D
So good to see those vids.

Tony



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Hepcat on January 06, 2014, 08:21:42 PM
Russ,
From things you have said recently I gather that life has been on a bit of a downer.  Two calm evenings and a new model performing like that - wonderful.  When the hobby is going right other things seem to follow.  I hope so, you deserve it and I hope it continues for you all through the year!

John


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on January 07, 2014, 04:21:29 AM
Thanks John,

Yes, just as things had become very good for us, I started having trouble with my shoulders. That has lifted quite a bit, I'm working better again and the models are performing for me again ..... surely it can't last?!
I will try to adopt a more optimistic approach from now on!
The triplane has certainly given me a renewed enthusiasm for scale.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on November 09, 2018, 06:20:57 AM
This one has been on the 'naughty step' since 2014!
It's the first time I have had a proper look at the model .... still got to fix the motor since the 2014 Nats.
It's not looking as tatty as I remember (all the main damage underneath) ... and it's not really the model's fault!
It needs slightly more power than the GM63 can give... especially for a ROG.
Bar the ROG problem it has given what are possibly the best scale flights I have had.
I locked the motor and mock engine in on the day of the Nats, so I'm hoping I can get the motor out cleanly and try the Gm63BB that I have.
Any experiences of what sort of power gain I can expect please?

I'm also going to try one of the wooden scale props I carved to see if it will actually fly with it.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: DHnut on November 09, 2018, 01:31:57 PM
I have been playing with some of my Gasparins lately as I felt one or two of them were not performing as well as they should. Apart from a good clean I also replaced the piston O ring and there was a definite improvement especially in the GM120 in the double sized Moorhouse Comper Swift that was marginal before the change. I also used one of the KP electric props as well and it works well from a hand launch. I have not had a chance to test it from an ROG.   
Ricky


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Squirrelnet on November 09, 2018, 02:04:13 PM
Nice looking Triplane Russ, glad its getting a second chance


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on November 18, 2018, 06:09:01 PM
Thanks both.

I got the motor out from the model without any real drama. I was a little surprised to find that the motor didn't need any real repair ... just a good oil and the cylinder head winding out a little and the motor was running fine.
In fact it just kept on running for a low power run for over two minutes. I think some kind of icing must have caused the problem on the day ... and my desperation to get more power than the motor could actually give.
I'm in the process of getting the model a bit tidier and then I shall fit the Gm63BB.
All this hopefully in time for the next Peterborough indoor so I can chase that elusive ROG!
What dihedral I did have seems to have 'flopped' a little, so I may have to do something about that too.



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: DHnut on November 18, 2018, 06:27:26 PM
Russ,
        What angle is your tank at? I have found that the accepted 45 deg is often marginal when it comes to carry over of liquid CO2 and now go for the most upright position possible. The Comper is definitely better after I made the tank more more upright. Also I have found when charging keeping the motor above the tank is beneficial. I must change out one of my Telcos for a GM 63 and see the difference.
Ricky


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Jack Plane on November 19, 2018, 03:46:08 AM
I'd second what Riccy says.  Gasparins aren't very tolerant of liquid entering the cylinder!  I'm currently getting grief (knocking rather than running) from the G-43BB I've just retrofitted into my 13" Scout; reckon the O-ring seal in the head is compromised.

The other thing I've found with the G-63BB in my Camel is that the engine really needs a light re-oiling before every flight for consistent performance, not just every 3-4 runs as usually suggested.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on November 19, 2018, 04:32:09 AM
Thanks both .... Yes, that sounds more probable than possible.
The model had taken some knocks and the rough foam locator I had used for the tank had suffered.
Pete Iliffe taught me the value of regular oiling .. but temptation to charge and fly again takes over sometimes!
I'll dig out a shot of Pete flying at dawn when we were camping at Old Warden



Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Andy Sephton on November 20, 2018, 01:12:19 AM
When using CO2 in scale models I never use a liquid charge. The chances of icing are high, especially in a crowded hall when the humidity increases - I learned that with my Blackburn in 1986!. Ricky's comment about an upright reservoir are good, but I also fit a much larger reservoir than I would normally need so I can get away with a gas charge. If you can, it's also worthwhile fitting a larger engine than the model needs. You can then operate at a reduced throttle setting that also helps prevent icing. The combination of a large reservoir and large engine will help to move the C of G forward...again, a good thing for our scale models.


Title: Re: DPC Sopwith Triplane - Kit Scale - Build
Post by: Russ Lister on November 20, 2018, 09:12:39 AM
Yes, I avoid a liquid charge where possible.
Luckily the BB motor is already equipped with a  large tank.