Hip Pocket Builders' Forum

Indoor Free Flight Forum => EZB, 35cm, Ministick, AROG, Livingroom Flyers => Topic started by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 03, 2013, 10:46:23 PM



Title: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 03, 2013, 10:46:23 PM
I finally get chance to contribute to HPA. It's not much and I am certainly not bringing or showing anything that isn't already here. But I at least get to share my first build along with my goofs that I am sure will come.
I also get a chance to take a shot at FF and stick & tissue building. My first plane is going to be a Butterfly kit from Ikara.
I haven't seen a build thread on this guy so why not make my first attempt at stick & tissue a build thread...

I have to give a shout out to Mandy, aka Cosmic flyer from Flitehook. I got the kit from her Ebay store and shipped from across the pond. I have to say... huge KUDOs to her and her company. It was a great price, super fast shipping and the shipping cost was like 60 cents! From way over there to here even. Thanks again Mandy!
So real life for me is way too busy with very little free time so this thread may be somewhat vague and also long in the making as I may go a while in-between posts.

With the pic limit at 5 I'll just show off the awesome Kit and the materials.
Ikara Butterfly kit with every material you need to make 1 plane accept glue.
Duco from Family Dollar
Acetone for thinning... this from Sally's Beauty Supply. Turns out they use it for removing fake nails. Pure acetone in a 8 oz bottle for less than 2 bucks.
Glue stick for the covering
Painters tape to stick plan and wax paper to the cork board.
Cork board... 4 tiles together in an art kit from Michaels. $5.00 Yes small building area but I will do mostly small builds and I can put them together for a bigger area if needed.
Pins.
Plastic straw from kids drink to dab acetone to glue in small amounts. (no I won't be giving it back to the kid)  ;)
That's pretty much it for materials.

Next post will be my actual start at the build.

Oh, and thanks for looking and God bless!
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 03, 2013, 10:51:54 PM
I went for the small pieces first since this is my first time. Was afraid to try the wing first in case I didn't do it right.

cut the 1mm balsa pieces, cut angles where nec to make for a tighter fit. I then made a small amount of glue thinned a lot and dipped the ends in it and wiped extra off, then set pieces to dry a minute. Read about presoaking from another thread on Hip Pocket. Figured whay not try it to ensure a stronger joint. May not be needed on a plane this small but did it anyways.
Just put a needle sized dab on the ends to glue and went in a circle slowly pinning all pieces together.

WOW, the thinned Duco dries faster than I thought it would. I only made small amounts at a time.(in a plastic water bottle cap) Probably would have been better off making bigger amounts. I would have enough to put together maybe 3 pieces before it dried. I hope my joints aren't to heavy, towards the end the glue sure gets thick fast. Easy clean up, just peel the dried up glue out of the cap, roll up the glue booger and throw it at your kids!  ;D
 
So after less than 10 minutes my pieces were dry and ready to take off the wax paper. Wow, compared to what I am used to, it feels totally weightless! I can't believe how light weight this kind of building is.
Next up, covering them


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 03, 2013, 10:55:02 PM
Now I like to jibber jabber so at times my text may seem long. I ask everyone's forgiveness for my long ramblings.  ::)

Any advice/help/smack for doing something stupid will be greatly appreciated.

So next up, getting the stabs covered, then onto the wing. ooooh I can't wait!  ;D
 
Last couple pics of my current progress...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Lancioamano on July 04, 2013, 12:35:41 AM
Go JimmyJFlyer  follow you job with pleasure. Luigi


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 04, 2013, 09:27:40 AM
Thanks for the encouragement Luigi!  :)
I am home today for holiday but will be with kids/family most of the day so probably no building yet. Hope to do more this weekend.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Hepcat on July 04, 2013, 08:35:55 PM
Jimmy,
That is a great start to a thread, good pictures and interesting chat.  I was glad to see your kind words for 'Flitehook'.  We regard it very highly over here and as Mandy has only recently taken over control from her parents it is good to know it is still in capable hands.

I think the easiest way to deal with thinned Ambroid is with a glue dispenser with a very fine nozzle and if anyone can recommend where to get one please say because I have lost mine and need a new one!

I have one building tip that might be of use.  I don't like using lots of pins, particularly on thin frameworks like the 'Butterfly'.  I would use some strips about 1/16 x 1/4 and pin them to the outside lines of the framework with just a couple of pins. Next place the actual framework piece inside the strip and hold it in place with, perhaps, only two pins.  Don't put these pins directly against the framework but put them through little 'pads' of scrap wood, about 1/4 square pushed up against the framework.  I will send a picture if that is not clear.

John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 05, 2013, 09:46:04 PM
Hey John! Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words!  :)

I have been reading through different older threads and also through House of Frogs site and have noticed Flighthook being mentioned often. I was pleased to see I used a known and well liked company.

Also, thanks a bunch for the framing tip. I can see what you are explaining at first with regards to building like a picture frame around the shape and then just using that as the outside wall to push the pieces against. But you lost me when you mentioned holding the individual pieces with just 2 pins but not against the piece but "through" the outside frame work?  Seems like this is holding the piece on the outside, but then how would you do the pins on the inside?

Now I have to admit, this question will be for future reference as I don't have any other wood then what is in my kit. I am also living seriously on a budget  so even tho balsa is cheap, I won't be getting any for a bit. So I am using just what is in the kit. Now truth be told, I am having a blast building this way as it is totally new to me so it's actually fun for me doing all the pins. It's like a novelty. So I don't mind all the pins.
Now I am sure that will change once I have a few builds under my belt and the newness wears off.  ;)
But if you get a free moment, I would love to see a pic. Always helps learning something new and a better way to do things.

Kinda of bummed as there is no available build time tonight so I am hoping to do some tomorrow night and will take more pics and keep the build thread going. I enjoy that part too. I used to love doing build threads of my foamy scratch build designs over at RCG.

Thanks again for the help!
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on July 06, 2013, 04:42:53 AM
i'm also enjoying your build sesson and hope you find a bit more building time. You're doing very well so far.
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 06, 2013, 11:05:14 AM
Oh that's cool John. I am glad you are enjoying it. I am actually surprised folks are seeing this thread. It seemed like this sub-forum really didn't get much attention over the last few months.

I am really glad you are enjoying my build. I hope to cover the tail feathers and start the wing build tonight and maybe get it posted by end of night tomorrow.

It's a pretty active weekend with the family and activities with Church so might be a few. I hope folks can be patient with me and keep watching for the next posts. 

Thanks for the encouragement!  :D

Hope everyone has a blessed weekend!  ;D

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Dave Andreski on July 06, 2013, 11:49:00 AM
Hi Jimmy,
I've been watching your build thread and it's going very well so far.
About 12 years ago I bought my Wife an RTF (ready to fly) version and it has been a real blast just flying it in the house.
Tried it outdoors once on a calm evening after dark using an .050" motor ( we have a rubber stripper) and the aircraft went up, up, and away 'till we could no longer see it.
We went inside to get a couple of flashlights and risking complaints from neighbors we searched backyards, frontyards, trees, decks, porches, roofs etc., until we finally located the little Butterfly about 1/8 mile from the launch point.
It sat undamaged on a narrow parcel of turf between a heavily travelled roadway and a pedestrian walkway. I'll never understand how it made it through the heavy tree canopy only to 'arrive' undamaged.
Great little design.

Dave


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 06, 2013, 03:06:17 PM
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the kind words. So it is good to hear that this guy will actually go well inside a living room. I just hope my living room isn't too small. About what size room did you fly it in? I am interested to know where you got your RTF version, just incase my build doesn't turn out I know what to ask for on my birthday.  ;D
 I am dying to actually fly inside the house. I usually go out in the frt to fly the foamies.

So what was the auw of the RTF?
That's really cool to see you found yours after all that. Surprised it made it! lol


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Dave Andreski on July 06, 2013, 07:08:24 PM
Hi Jimmy,
The room it flew in was about 9 X 12 feet with many obstacles, ceiling fan, furniture etc., so couldn't manage many circuits.
I got my RTF Butterfly at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami, FL for $22.00. Quite a lot of money but it was a gift for Annie, my wife, so no expense was spared ;) I'm not sure the RTF version is still available here in the U.S.A.
It weighs in at 2.38 grams w/o Rubber.
I'll have to do some minor repairs and try flying it again as we have moved and have a larger space in which to fly. A 12 X 12 foot room with NO obstructions would be ideal.

Dave


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 06, 2013, 09:28:58 PM
OK so that's good to hear. Our living room is like 15x20 with vaulted ceiling that goes to almost 12', no obstructions other than ceiling fan at top. which of course would NOT be running.  ;) It's by far the biggest room in the house. Our bedrooms are like closets. lol
So as long as I don't mess up the build, it should do fine.
Bummed as it looks like no build time tonight. Just too much going on atm. Actually taking a break from to-do's to poke around here.   :)
Sparing no expense for the wifes happiness... good move!  ;D


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 13, 2013, 10:24:28 AM
Finally found an hour of build time last night. Took pics and will post some time later today hopefully. Lots of to-do' s on the the list for today. Might be tomorrow. Stay tuned.  ;)


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 14, 2013, 01:46:50 PM
Finally wrangled some free time!
Since time was short, I decided instead of trying to do both covering the tail feathers AND building the wing, I would just go straight for the wing.
I started with just laying out the pieces, then decided to presoak again. Before I did tried top cut the spar ends to match the shape of the outer rib. Worked pretty good. Did just one, will do the rest after the wing is together.
 Dipped the edges that would be glued in and wiped the excess off & let them dry. The ribs were easy, just dipped them in the glue & whiped them off. I took note of where the ribs went on the spars and dabbed over-diluted glue on them and wiped them too. Now all spots that were going to take glue were presoaked.
The LE & TE spars went straight down on the plans (pinned down) and then I tried to fit the inside 3 ribs in and they had to compress quite a bit to fit. I was afraid the super fragile pieces would break under pressure so I trimmed a little under a mm off each.
Then I just dabbed a bit of glue on the ends and laid them in between the spars. The spars alone with the glue was enough to hold them in place but I still used pins to lean them up perpindicular to the spars to keep everything straight. The outer 2 ribs are shortened (even airfoil so you can cut either end) and laid flat instead of *up*. This way when lifted for the dihedral, they will be standing upright like the center ribs matching the airfoil.

***NOTE OF CAUTION*** The 5 ribs were the only *issue* I had with the Ikara kit. They were held nicely together with a small piece of tape so as to keep them safely together. The only problem was that the tape did not want to come off. Pulling it was a very dangerous feat as it would easily break apart the fragile ribs. 1mm soft balsa breaks sooooo easy. Held and supported the ribs with 2 fingers and used a pair of tweasers to slowly peel the tape up bit by bit.

to be continued...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 14, 2013, 01:49:26 PM
continued...
Then it was time to bend the TE spar up to the shortened ribs. This was made easy by taking just the very tip of my exacto blade and cutting less than half way through the lower face of the spar so that when I "lifted" it up to meet the shortened rib, it just went easy and did not have to bend. (no stress) For glueing this I just dabbed a bit of glue with a pin on the end of the rib and pinned the spar in place.
***I definitely need to get me a glue applicator needle but yet I only mix itty bitty dabs at a time so not sure how I would use it with this application.***
So that's it. For this session. Wife came home from her first Tupperware Party and the jibber jabber session has begun. Time to clean up. Thought I would get it totally built but not enough time. Next up, cut spars and lift ends up, then cover everything.

Couple more pics on the next post...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 14, 2013, 01:50:10 PM
Thanks for looking!  :D Will be back soon Lord willing!  ;)

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on July 14, 2013, 06:55:40 PM
You're obviously enjoying this Jim - nice work. Its very  relaxing watching your progress
happy building
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 14, 2013, 10:57:56 PM
Wow John, never thought of this being relaxing for someone else. lol
I am very pleased this can offer others this kind of enjoyment.
Thanks so much for the kind words.
I used to look at pics of this sort of progress back when I would just glue up like 3 or 4 pieces of foam for a plane and think that glueing and pinning little toothpics was nuts!!! Now yeah, I am really enjoying this sort of building and yes, relaxing it is.

Ooooh! I just realized something... Next weekend grandma is taking the kids all weekend so the wife and I can be hubby & wife for a weekend to celebrate my birthday. Maybe I'll get some good time and actually finish the build.  ;D

We'll see...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on July 16, 2013, 08:54:02 AM
Good luck - hope you find time ;D
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 21, 2013, 09:52:01 AM
So I actually found time on 2 nights this past week. It's harder finding time to post actually.  ::)

Had a couple free minutes Wednesday night. Couldn't resist trying to get a bit done on the wing. Figured I would give it a shot at doing the dihedral on both sides. Oooh I was scared to try it for fear of breaking the wings apart. Now I am not sure if I did the right thing here with how I did it. I actually did not follow the directions to a tee and I am worried I should have.

Now days later, I know I should have done it the way the directions said. Instructions said to just cut through the spars at the bends. I figured I would get cute and just partially cut through the top and actually take a small wedge out, put glue in the divot and lift it up. BAD IDEA. That left a small amount of unbroken wood in the joint that broke the very first time I put pressure on it. I have since broken the joint twice just handling the wing. I now see that cutting all the way through and glueing it solid would have been better. No biggie.

I measured & cut a 20mm piece of cardboard and pinned it standing up next to the wing. Then dabbed glue in the joints and lifted the end up and just rotated the cardboard and let the wing tip rest on it. 10 minutes later, unpinned everything and did the other side. Turned out nice. Still so super light I can't believe it. So that was it for that night. I only had a couple minutes before going to bed so I just couldn't resist.

I'll post more in a few, stay tuned...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 21, 2013, 10:02:38 AM
Couple more pics doing the dihedral tips... the on to covering. (hated that part!!!)  ;)


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 21, 2013, 10:38:38 AM
Now this pasty Friday night I had more time. I am going to try not to jibber jabber too much as I need to move on to other things today.
Basically I DID NOT LIKE THIS PART!
I'm a perfectionist and I have to have it perfect. This part... not so perfect.

I have to stop complaining here... it actually worked out fine and was tuff as I didn't foresee the issues transitioning to the different surfaces going from the center to the tips. Doing this on a flat wing would have been easy peasy. But with the airfoil the Butterfly has, it was a bit challenging.

Center section... simple, glue stick the frt spar and lay the piece on. I left it overlapping per instructions. (goof here, trimmed one side thinking I would get a perfect edge going from blue to white and less extra material on the underside. BAD IDEA #2.)
Then just glue stick the rest, CAREFUL ON THE RIBS as they will flatten out and break. and lay the tissue down. I did the center rib first and then the others, then TE spar in the interest of keeping it flat and unwrinkled. Then trimmed the overlap from LE & TE. Trimmed the right (looking in direction of flight) overlap right to the rib. Yup, as earlier mentioned that was a bad idea.

Sides in white... I then put the tip covering  over the blue covered outside rib and tried to lay it on the rest of the wing end. With the rib having the airfoil and the rest being flat the tissue just got all wrinkled up. Would not work with end covering *over* the outside rib. So I just laid it flat and pushed it down to the outside rib as best I could. Oh yeah, before all this I glue sticked all the balsa and the top of the outside rib over the blue covering. (again, the way I planned the tissue over the outside rib and on top of the blue was not going to work)

Now had I left the overhanging blue on the edge of the outer center section rib, I would have had something to push the white tissue to. It still worked out OK. The left side went much better since I had the extra covering there to gluye to. Initially this all left an open area at the transition from blue center to white side but then I just pushed the white up to the rib & covering and just dabbed some glue (duco) in there to hold it.
WING DONE!!!

The tail feathers were simple since they are flat. Just glue sticked them and laid them down on the covering, wait a couple minutes and trim the edge with a new blade. Has to be sharp. The tissue is not the easiest to cut, especially when you need to be careful not to break balsa.
So that's it for now. I need to buy some CA for the next step so we'll maybe return to this next weekend.

Thanks again for looking!!!
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 21, 2013, 10:40:05 AM
More pics...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 21, 2013, 10:42:02 AM
Close-ups showing how I did the gaps in-between the blue to white covering at the ribs. Good enough.

Thx again for looking!
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Dave Andreski on July 21, 2013, 11:20:40 AM
Won't be long now!
Dave


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on July 28, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
LOL Dave. Longer than I would like!
Didn't really find much build time this weekend. May still tonight. But I did get a couple minutes last night which was all I needed to get the fuse & tail boom put together and just enough time to mess it up.  ::)
Per the directions you put the sleeve on the tail boom and then glue that to the fuse. So I laid it down on the plans to get the correct angle and forgot to compensate for the thickness of the sleeve and I pinned the whole thing down. This put the sleeve on an angle. And the angle is opposite I would have wanted on a plane that will do left hand circles as the plane is built to do. So the tail is slightly off. I CA'd that part. Not sure if I should worry about this or not. I can just leave it as is and just make sure I have the H-stab going straight so it doesn't follow that angle.
So if anyone can chime in here on their thoughts...
Leave as is and just be careful with the tail feathers to get the correct set up or break the sleeve loose and re-glue it. Would that slight offset in the 1.5mm tail boom cause much of a trimming problem if I compensate for this with making sure the tail feathers are still at the correct angle?

So other than that, all that's left is gluing the wing & tail feathers on and tying up the motor and giving it a go.

But any advice on the tail boom issue will be greatly appreciated.

Until the next build session...
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 07, 2013, 11:02:14 PM
IT FLIES!!! Actually, its been more than a week since I finished my Butterfly and I have been terrorizing the living room ever since. I have just had NO time to post. I have build pics and video's. Though my Flip software is no longer uploading to You Tube so not sure how I will post them.
Just started new job and hours are real long so free time is even less than before. But I hope to post soon. This little gem just has to be shared!

Stay tuned...

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 09, 2013, 10:09:19 PM
As I already stated...HE FLIES!!!!! I AM SOOOO STOKED!!! LOL
 Sorry, I couldn't contain myself. I have more build thread to add put the last build session ended with me not being able to wait any longer. I tied the motor and gave him a go. We'll read more about that adventure after the build at the proper time. But as a hint... IT WAS AWESOME!!!   :D
 So more than a week ago I took a stab at adding the wing posts and gluing the stabs on the tail boom. Oh my gosh I was nervous. Handling that wing was scary business as it is just so fragile. Just handling it I broke a couple joints loose. This will be the first and LAST build I do without a fixture of some kind for holding things in place such as I have seen in the F1 builds.

 So I will do this in 2 posts since it was 2 nights worth...

 Somehow I actually was able to eye ball and glue the wing posts in place straight and square. Now I don't recommend eye balling it. I can get away with it as I still have sharp eyes up close w/o the glasses on and I have always been an artist and have a good eye for detail. But this could be messed up quite easily.
 I pre-soaked again, both the post ends and the spars where they mount. Then just dabbed the end in the glue. Held it a sec until it would hold and wiggled it straight. Then with tweezers I added the little paper triangle pieces to stiffen it up. I ended up using a pin to put more glue on these afterwards as they just felt too flimsy, even at the risk of having too much weight.
 Note: these go on offset to the right (facing forward) 5 mm making the left side of the wing longer.
 Then while these dried I eyeballed the H stab on, then the rudder. I just looked at the plan and did my best to match the angle for the vert stab which is there to assist in the planes natural left turning ability. Now I goofed here and allowed the vert stab to lean over. This ended up not hurting anything.
 It was so hard to stop there with the end so close but I only had about a half hour so I forced myself to stop.
 I'll stop here and upload that night's pics...
 Next up, finishing it off...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 09, 2013, 10:11:23 PM
more pics...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 09, 2013, 10:16:11 PM
continued...
 Then last Thursday night I glued the wing on and finished it up. I used the thinned Duco for the front post as it is wood to wood but I CA'd the rear post as it is the paper tube. The tube allows you to adjust wing incidence by being able to slide the rear post up & down as needed. Again, by hand this was difficult and the front post popped off once. I always went with as little glue as possible but not here. The 2nd time I just globbed it on there and left it. Then held it a few minutes. Then CA'd the rear post.
 Now you need to add the LT side wash in per plans. I didn't like this but the plans actually say to partially break the TE spar just LT of center and bend it down so that the edge drops 3mm. Then glue the partial break to set it. I did as instructed quite easily. Wing DONE and mounted.
 Then looking at the plans again that shows the proper angles I slide the tail back out of its paper tube and rotated it to get the proper offset angle of the stab.
 Now just needed to tie the motor. The directions don't say how long and mention that depends on how you intend on flying. Bummer. But it does say go so long as to make it just a bit longer than the distance from prop to rear hook. So I made mine look and hang down like in the pic on the plans and cut it. Here's the kicker... I forgot to measure exactly how long that was and bummer, because it was exactly correct. But it hung just like it does in the pic so for those building one, just match the pic and you will be good to go. I just took the 2 ends, laid them together and tied a not like tying a balloon.
 There was no stopping me from that point. I hung the motor, did 100 turns per plans for the test flight and let it go. This is just to see how it flies and to trim it if needed. No trimming nec. It went in a slow descending LT circle. I was sooo nervous! I thought for sure this thing was going to fall apart. To my surprise it took off and then took the hit into my grasp without so much as a wimper. NOTE to newbs like me. YOU MUST RESIST TRYING TO GRAB IT OUT OF THE AIR TO SAVE A COLLISION. It will harmlessly bounce off of whatever it may hit. If you grab it you will CRUSH IT. I got lucky.
 So then the plans say go to 150 and let it rip.
 Maiden flight... drum roll please... PERFECT LT CIRCLES!!! WOOO HOOO!!!   ;D
 Went to 175 turns and a nice quick climb and a few circuits around the room and a nice glide down. Standing up and doing this at more than 175 turns and it would climb and hit the ceiling fan. I eventually settled at 200 turns and letting it go from a sitting position on the couch. It has enough for an initial climb to just under fan height then does a few nice circles then comes down. PERFECT!!!
 I would almost be tempted to try to trim it to widen the circles but then it would be harder to get long flights w/o hitting the wall.
 Here is the praise for Ikara's instructions. If you trim it EXACTLY as it says, it is a perfect flyer for the small room. I was shocked that it needed no additional trimming. The current out of the box set up and trim will get you 4 to 5 foot circles with very mild climb. This is perfect for the TRUE LIVING ROOM FLYER.
 Oh I almost forgot about CG. It shows on plans and directs you to poke a hole in the wing and tie thread on the center rib at that point to help you get it. I measured the CG and it just so happened to end up being right at the bottom of the BUTTERFLY lettering. I didn't do the thread, just put my skinny finger in there. You adjust CG by sliding the tail forward or backward. Built per plans and you should have no issues with CG. If you go heavy with glue that might be a different story but sliding the tail boom makes adjusting easy I figure.
 So all in all, a really fun build. Built light watching amounts of glue used, following plans to a tee and trimming exactly how the plans say and it is a true "OUT OF THE BOX LIVING ROOM FLYER". Mega muey kudo's to IKARA on this kit. Think about it, I have never done a stick and tissue build before and mine needed NO TRIM adjustments and flies like a champ.
 I LOVE IT!!!
 Now I took video's but my internet connection is not the greatest and I think my FLIP camera software is pooping out. I tried a dozen times and can not upload to YouTube. So no proof of flight yet but I am not giving up. I am dying to show everyone how well this little gem flies.
 Wow, build is over. I don't want this to end lol. So since I am enjoying this experience so much I'll just keep going and switch from a build thread to a HOW TO FLY a Butterfly thread.

Time permitting next weekend I will start posting flying experiences and tips. Gotta figure out my FLIP camera uploading issues. The flight vids are good ones.
We'll see.
Thanks for looking!!!  :)

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 09, 2013, 10:18:51 PM
more pics...

Next weekend I'll start posting flight experience and tips.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Lancioamano on August 10, 2013, 03:03:29 AM
Jimmy.. great work !!

I hope you solve the problems of uploading a file to You Tube
I await your movies and comments ...... then I'll start building my butterfly
(I bought the same model here in Europe) .. What a coincidence.!

I once built a similar model in 1968 .. how to tell the past week ..

For now many compliments ..
Luigi


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: hastf1b on August 10, 2013, 06:20:04 AM
Hi Jimmy, I have not read all of your text. A small correction you still need to make. The rudder must form a line perpendicular to the pylon. (See white line on picture)


Heinz


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 10, 2013, 08:42:25 AM
@ Luigi, Thank you so much for your kind words. I look forward to hearing about your build. I took another video last night. This guy is such a wonderful flyer. I will try using my laptop maybe to upload vids. I will attach the FLIP camera to it and see if it will load the software. It is an obsolete software now since they stopped making the FLIP.  :(   If I have to I will take a vid with my phone and upload that way. You got to see how nice this guy flies in small spaces.

@Heinz, I know I wrote a lot. I wanted to write a little at a time and post pics to go with it but just do not have the time to do it that way. When I glued the stab it laid over. I was bummed as I originally had it set perpendicular. The good news is that it flies wonderfully as is. I am not sure how I would get it to straighten up without adding something extra to hold it.
If you have time, read through it. I plan to start posting specifics on how it flies and how the amount of turns give different results. But this little guy has allowed me to actually inside the house. My favorite build.  ;D

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Dave Andreski on August 10, 2013, 11:58:59 AM
Hi Jimmy,
Looks like you're having lots of fun flying your Butterfly.
Any idea of what it weighs? Just curious.
Thanks,
Dave


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 10, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
Dave, I am real curious too. I don't have a scale in grams that I know of. I'll ask the wife. I am a shop examiner for an insurance company. I will maybe just take it on the road and use a paint mixing scale at one of my shops and measure it. I always used the paint scales when I worked in the shop. I am dying for know what it weighs.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 21, 2013, 10:12:06 PM
Life has been so busy I haven't had time to do much but I have been able to fly this little gem so I had a few moments tonight and figured I would post some of my flight experiences with the Ikara Butterfly.
It all started with the recommended 100 turns to see how it flies then up to 150 which got me my first and very successful flight. This got it around the room level for about 12 glorious seconds. lol

Now this is all due to Ikara's stellar attention to detail with regards to trim. Built exactly per plans and this guy will be a living room flyer right off the building board.

So then I just went up in turns. At about 180 turns it would run a level and wide circle first then tighten up and gently climb. Almost hit the ceiling then slowly come down.

As I went more turns, like 200, it would do the same and start to bounce off the ceiling a time or 2, or the ceiling fan but would just dip & keep going.
So I flew this guy at least everyday and got up to 250 turns. But now the difference in performance came. I noticed that the rubber would hold knots a little longer and could see the jitteras those tight knots would hit the motor stick. I also noticed that it would not stay up as long and the rubber would stick together. Then I remembered reading about keeping rubber lubed up. Went to the LHS and bought an AMA Delta Dart for my daughter, a glue syringe and a jar of Sig Rubber.
Lubed the motor and a world of difference. Now 300 turns will get me almost 30 seconds. But... the climb is gone. So I need to figure that one out. It's not that much of an issue since I am in my family room. But just a little climb would get me a few more circles before landing and use up more of the turns. So now I just gotta milk it for what it's got.
Oh and I got a vid!!! Took a vid tonight with my phone and emailed it to myself. I still want to post my maiden vids if I can figure out why my Flip software isn't working.
So anyways... check ut the vid and enjoy!
EDIT: scratch the vid. Can't upload, too big and can't get it on Youtube. I am just not meant to have a vid on this thread! lol

Ah well, thx for looking!

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: orbiteer127 on August 21, 2013, 11:43:27 PM
Jimmy can you change the incedence of the main wing? Or change the angle of the rear horizontal stabilizer?
William


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: hastf1b on August 22, 2013, 04:19:40 AM
Hi Jimmy, on your next model you can down at the pylon glue a 1 mm balsa stick. The wing is held with two Ortodontic Rubber Bands. (See pictures) This allows to move the CG.



Heinz


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 22, 2013, 10:38:35 PM
Hey guys, thanks for the advice.
@Orbiteer127... yes the rear post of the wing is actually adjustable to change incidence and I could just bend the tailboom too if needed to change angle of the h stab.

@Heinz... That is a good idea indeed. I am just starting tonight my build of the Uncle Sam, aka Boxy Bipe and the wing assembly is adjustable for CG. On the Butterfly the CG can be adjusted too with the tailboom. Just like the rear post of the wing, the tailboom sits in a paper tube that is glued to the motor stick. This allows for the tail boom to be pushed in or pulled out to adjust for CG. So far having the CG per plans it flies level really well. I just want to induce just as small amount of climb. I mean really small amount as I only have about 10' before it starts hitting things.

I will try the wing incidence first. I will increase it just a tad. Like a degree at a time and see how it goes.

It's killing me that I can't post a vid!
It really does fly nicely.

Here's a pic of the adjustable parts of the Butterfly...


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: orbiteer127 on August 23, 2013, 01:45:24 AM
Hi Jimmy,
I think I remember reading some where that for every inch of cord, a degree equals 1/64 of an inch. So if your wing's cord is two inches then just changing the incedence by 1/32 would be a degree. Do you have a smart phone to shoot video with?

William


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 23, 2013, 11:01:39 PM
Thanks for that tip William. I actually started shooting vids with my smart phone. But from there I am stuck. I sent it to my email so that it would be on my pc. Now I just have to figure out how to upload to Youtube. I thought that for sure that when you are in your acct on YT you could choose to "upload" a vid but haven't figured out how yet. My phone is a Nokia Windows phone. I suppose I could use the Skydrive but not sure I ever set up my acct.
I'll need to figure that out. I lowered the rear post about barely 1mm and it didn't make much difference. But even that being said, on 300 turns it goes level really nice. Last night I let it go high up and figure it was close to 35 seconds and used up almost all the turns.

Gotta get a vid up tho. That's my next project. I am dying to post a vid of this guy.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: orbiteer127 on August 24, 2013, 12:34:19 PM
Hi jimmy,
It sounds like its a great flyer. One thing I have been told is that if you run out of winds then the rubber is to short or to big. Short being from post to propellor  shaft. To big being to thick. Here is their reasoning. There is a certain number of turns that you put in the motor that do nothing to help your plane fly. There is just not enough torque to spin the propellor at the correct speed to keep your plane aloft. Just guessing I seem to think its around 25% of the turn we put into our motors. The trick to long flights is to have your plane fly from release to the ceiling then back to the ground.

Keep us all posted on your progress.
William


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on August 27, 2013, 09:09:45 PM
Thanks for the info William. At least as is, it is flying quite well. But I can probably wring more out of it I am sure. My biggest issue is just getting a vid uploaded!  I was ale to upload one to my Facebook page right from my phone. I suppose I could just link that here. But before I do I still want to take a shot at getting one on You Tube.

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 21, 2013, 01:57:12 PM
So finally have to deal with a trim issue. He has gone quite a while without issues but I am noticing that it does not want to climb anymore. Still circles good though. Looking at it closely, the H Stab has gotten quite warped/twisted. On the outward/right side the leading edge at the outer corner has warped upward. This is causing major positive incidence an I feel probably causing the rear to want to lift keeping the plane from climbing.

So my question is what is the best way to work the warp out? I will try to wet it and bend it back. First I wetted the wood and kept it flat in a closed book but it just went right back to the way it was. I think I will actually have to bend it and this w/o breaking it.

Any advice?


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: hastf1b on December 21, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
Hi Jimmy, make a new motor mount. The plastic parts you can use.

Heinz


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 21, 2013, 04:22:52 PM
If the tail is covered with tissue then I wouldn't wet it - it sounds like it has shrunk and tightened and extra moisture will make this worse. You may get away with moistening the balsa only but I would think twisting it dry would be safer.
You will need to overtwist  untill you feel some gentle esistance from the balsa structure. Hold and then let it go.
If this doesn't work - then you will need to recover the tail - ensuring its flat or at worse - build a complete new tail.
Good luck
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 21, 2013, 04:23:52 PM
Hey Heinz, it appears that my motor stick is fine. The severe warp is in the tail. The flat horizontal stab is what is warped. The right front corner (looking from the tail towards the front) is warped upwards. I would take a pic but camera is missing at the moment. I am currently posting from my phone. Not sure how to upload a pic using a phone.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 21, 2013, 04:29:04 PM
Hey John, you replied just as I was typing. I didn't even think of the tissue but that sounds very possible. I will recover it first. I have plenty of tissue left over from the kit. Makes total sense. The whole stab is twisting up. Thought i had it in a dry place. Will have to think of a better place to store it. I have enough stuff to make a whole new stab too. We'll see how recovering works first.
Thanks for the advice guys!


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 21, 2013, 04:42:13 PM
Jimmy - I would also put the tail tissue on very slack. For small lightly built models i actually roll the tissue into a ball and then carefully flatten it out. This leaves lots of very fine creases which help to stop the covering shrink far enough(with humidity changes) to cause problems. Don't pull the covering too tight - just eliminate any wrinkles.
I actually don't add the covering to he frame but place the piece of tissue on a flat surface - smooth it out an then drop the frame onto the tissue and carefully smooth any wrinkles out.
Another trick that may help is to iron the tissue with a domestic iron on low heat - to remove the biggest creases and then cover while it is warm and at minimum humidty level.
It doesn't look as pretty but is effective.
Good luck
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: hastf1b on December 21, 2013, 04:53:22 PM
Jimmy! Sorry, was my mistake. These are the low language skills. :)

Heinz


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 21, 2013, 06:39:42 PM
Hey Heinz no worries! ;)

John, thx for the lesson! I will definitely follow your instructions. I had the plane sitting on top of a display cabinet way up high so the kids couldn't get it. Didn't think the humidity level would fluctuate there that much. Must have been wrong.
Will have to come up with another stash spot.

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 25, 2013, 03:45:00 PM
MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS!!!
So a weird thing happened... I took the tail boom with tail feathers off, (removable) and was planning on recovering the H stab. Then a friend was over so I just plopped it back on and it looked like the stab was not as warped. Maybe laying flat all this time did something??? So I went 325 turns and it climbed! So much that it wouldn't stop poking the ceiling. He thought it was so cool. So I took maybe 1 degree (possibly less) out of the wing incidence and now it just flies nice level circle until it looses power. I also went back to just 300 turns. The cool thing is I finally am able to post video!!!

Here is 3 vids...

this is just after the build, it's like my 3rd flight...
http://youtu.be/oXfxRXxOwQU

next 2 flights are the other night after messing with the stab...
http://youtu.be/8muL1IUHJoI
http://youtu.be/MaP2_B8Q440

Based on the times of the vids I guess I am getting around 25 seconds, could probably get to 30 if I got a bit of climb back in and got it to level off just before smacking the ceiling fan. But all in all, probably the best I will get flying in an actual family room. Gosh I love this plane!

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 25, 2013, 04:58:58 PM
Glad to see the stab problem has resolved itself jimmy. It certainly has given you lots of enjoyment and it flies well.

I set myself a task of doing a minute inside my bedroom many years ago when recovering from an operation. I finally managed it but it required the model to do quite  few circuits bumping on the ceiling and a lot of luck to avoid the obstacles. It certainly made the time pass a bit more quickly.

The model was of a simlar sizeand fairly light but nothing like the low weight of typical indoor indoor living room flyers.

I still have it and it is still flyable (its about 11 yrs old). It survives in its own little box and this has saved it I'm sure.

Find a box to keep it in Jimmy and yours should last for years as well. Keep it out of direct sunlight and away from heat and moisture.

John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 25, 2013, 11:28:07 PM
Hey John,
Agreed... I definitely need to find a small box for it. I didn't even think of that at first (newbiness) but I know that where I had it is probably quite detrimental to its well being.

I like yours! Is it your own design? I can't imagine what mine would have to accomplish (along with needing a lot of luck) to make a full minute in the family room. It does well in the living room too but that's where the Christmas tree is now.  ;)

Can't see how I would extend its cruise without climbing. Seems like bouncing off the ceiling would be the only way to get longer flights. Would like to try though.

Thanks again for posting a pic of yours an your words O wisdom!  :)

Jimmy 


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 26, 2013, 04:23:11 PM
Thanks for the kind words – but I’m not a modeling Wizard – just a very avid reader and fan of anything that flies. There are far more knowledgeable people on this forum

Well mine needed a lot of luck as well Jimmy. There were quite a few obstacles in the room and every time the prop hit the ceiling it changed its flight path, quite often running into a wardrobe or similar. I had one thing in my favor though - it’s an old house with a 10' high ceiling. I was wrong in the first post - it’s actually about 22yrs old - it dates back to around 1991.

Even though it did make the time - it did it by brute force almost and by Living Room stick standard it’s a heavy model.

Its something I knocked up fairly quickly - well over most of a day. It was designed to do very tight left hand turns with the left centre wing panel longer than the right to help balance the turn. You can see how much left rudder was used and it also had tail tilt and left thrust. It flew if I remember on 1/32" rubber or .040". The wing is covered in Esaki and the tail has some light indoor plastic film.

Happy Flying
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 26, 2013, 08:56:38 PM
I am getting more and more interested on your living room flyer John. The wing offset on the BF is the same, it is over to the left more for the same reason. How much wing incidence?
How big/small of a circle pattern would yours fly?

The BF has no thrust offset, looks to be 0 & 0. The wing also has wash in on the left (inside). What is the thickness of the prop blades?

Sorry for all the questions... Really curious to learn more about what makes these little guys tick.

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 27, 2013, 08:24:24 AM
I should point out Jimmy that my attempt at a living room stick is nowhere near the best that can be achieved . Alan Cohen is one of the leaders in the field in the USA.
However I will draw it up for you for your information.
It has a low camber airfoil on the wing which like yours is set on posts that ride in tissue sockets on the fuselage.
The tail is also on posts which are permanently glued (I think) to the tail boom.
I'll estimate the wing and the tail incidence for you and also the CG. The wing incidence is pretty low from memory.
The turn circle is around 7-8' diameter - not leaving much clearance in either my bedroom or my lounge room.
It flies a fair bit faster under full power than yours and only begin to climb after the first couple of circuits. This is due I believe to the motor stick slightly bending - reducing the angle of attack of the tail and holding the nose down. By adjusting the wing incidence I can get it to climb after the initial power burst - otherwise it rockets up to the ceiling far too early and at too high a flying speed - leading to being bumped off course into a wall or other obstacle.
happy flying
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 27, 2013, 09:55:28 PM
Hey that would be great John. I was looking for Alan's latest mini-stick design. I can't remember which thread (couple years old???)it was but he had mentioned a "new" design mini stick that he was going to post plans to but I never found them. Still looking out for them.
Thinking 7-8' is about what mine does.
I am really interested in your prop and thrust bearing set up. I do hope to learn enough to make my own soon.

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 28, 2013, 06:10:41 PM
While checking the dimensions, I had to give it a bit of a fly in my lounge room. It definitely doesn't need any more than 1/32' rubber which is still a little too powerful.
Its turn under the initial high torque burst is around 5' diameter and this tightens up as the power runs down -cruising in circles around 3-4' diameter.
This happens as the torque twists the motor stick adding washin to the left wing and thus opening up the left turn.
Drawing to come.
Remember though its not a legal Living Room Stick model - just a fun design.
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 29, 2013, 10:48:01 AM
Hey thx for the info John. I am not worried about legal rules & whatnot. I'll probably never do contests indoors. At least not for a while. I may try to hook up with the Cloudbusters who are local here in Michigan. So maybe someday I might do some FAC contests but that would be way off. For now I am the same. It's just all for fun.

With me I love to build, that is where a lot of my enjoyment comes from. My Butterfly kit got me started. But I would love to do an all out scratch build too.

I do have 2 plans printed of mini-sticks. I have Rob Romashes 7" Poonker and Alan's Minislick. The Minislick is a curved motor stick & tail boom. I am not sure if that is the one I read about or not.

Now looking at these 2 plans they are for all out contest indoor flight ands not little circles in a livingroom. But I still would like to give one a shot.

Would love to have the drawing for yours too.

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: julio on December 29, 2013, 11:21:42 AM
Jimmy

I hope the following link may be interesting to you.

http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=5118.0

Regards
Julio


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 29, 2013, 12:58:13 PM
Hey thanks Julio!  :)
Actually Heinz and I have discussed his Ministick before. I love it, especially the removable parts. Slebetman did one too.
I had forgotten about Heinz' one. Thanks again for the reminder!

Regards
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 29, 2013, 04:34:40 PM
So I found and read through Alan's Minislick thread. Can I build it? probably... can I strip rubber to the size he uses for that sweet performance? nope... Check out his vid...
http://youtu.be/sJmnkC1tTtQ

Looks like I was wrong about the Minislick not being a good plane for living room duty as it does nicely in Alan's vid and flies umpteen times longer than mine so done right, I think this guy would be great but not sure I would be able to get that rubber unless I could order it at the size he using. Then I need to learn how to and get good at doing my own props. The other issue is not having a wood stripper to get the wood that small size either. So looks like that build is probably above me atm but the more simple designs I could give a go.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 29, 2013, 06:53:31 PM
Well here are the drawings for mine, Jimmy, as scaled off the model. and as flown yesterday. It is definitely not contest material but may be a bit more forgiving.
I'vejust realised i haven't shown the CG - this is 8.5 mm forward of the trailing edge.
I was flying it ysterday on a 260 loop of 0.045 FAI tan rubber. it could use smaller rubber- i would guess down to 0.035 or perhaps less as it it still climbs a bit too strongly on 0.045.

Good luck.
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 29, 2013, 08:04:17 PM
John those drawings are awesome! So I am not used to decimal measurements without doing some math...
So basically 1mm or slightly smaller rubber is what you would want to use for this little guy? 1mm = .039.
What exactly do you mean by 260? Is that millimeters?
I am going to print out those drawings you posted. My laptops screen doesn't show the writing good enough.
One thing I need to do before getting too crazy in scratch building these free flight planes is get a better understanding of how the different size rubber affects flight. I want to get both Don Ross' & Ron Williams' books. Time to actually learn properly what I am getting into.  ;) 'Course, trial & error is fun too!  ;D

Learning from knowledgeable folks like yourself sure helps too!
Thanks so much for taking the time to put those drawings up!

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 30, 2013, 06:14:20 AM

What exactly do you mean by 260? Is that millimeters?YES
I am going to print out those drawings you posted. Jimmy

They are all A4 so should be easy to do.

Here is a short video of it flying on the 260Mm long loop of .045" rubber(smallest I had)

 http://youtu.be/TwJJ27ZMB80

John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 30, 2013, 04:26:47 PM
I didn't answer your questions, Jimmy re conversion of metric to imperial sizes.
The model is basically built from 2 different sizes of balsa - 1.5mm = 1/16", and 0.8mm = 1/32"
The prop blades are 0.4mm= sanded down 1/32 to approx half thickness. This can be done by using Lincoln's suggestion of masking tape on the sanding block to set the thickness required, or carefully by eye. Sand down a small section of sheet before cutting out the blades. Keep reversing the sheet and sand on both sides to help reduce any curls in the balsa. its best to use at around 120 grit and not much pressure to get a reasonable result. Finish with finer - 240 or better grit.
The prop shaft, rear hook etc are 0.015" wire.
It would help to make a couple of simple balsa strippers to get your 1/16 and 1/32 sticks. Check the threads here on HPA for wood strippers and copy one of the simple razor blade and spacer versionsi weighed it last night and it is some where between 2 to 2.5gms with rubber. Heavy for this class of model. It is probably not the best balsa selection and it may have close to a 0.5gm of CA from repairs ;D
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 30, 2013, 06:08:37 PM
John, that flight you had in the video is perfect! Very nice and thanks so much for posting it.

Thanks also for the specs too. This definitely seems like something I could build. I didn't even think about a home built balsa stripper.  I saw the prices on them and figured no way. I will search for plans and concepts. I know I could build one if I researched it enough.

Now I can get 1/16 balsa at the local hobby shop an could probably cut it down with a good stripper.  I also just realized last night that A2Z has the super skinny rubber at .035 & even smaller so I should be able to actually scratch one of these out. I really like the flight of yours and will give it a shot.
Do you remember what glue you used?

I definitely want to try my hand at building props as I want to build balsa props for doing No Cals also.

Can't wait to have my basement office done for work as that is where the build table is going.  ;D

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 30, 2013, 10:12:00 PM
Thanks Jimmy - but as you can see it climbs too quickly and even though it was reduced winds (around 50% turns) it is still only 35 or so seconds long. It could be made a lot lighter though as I didn't go overboard on balsa selection.
Its a long time ago Jimmy but I suspect that I probably used CA as i wanted to see it fly quickly. Other than the front bearing and the rear wire hook for which i would still use CA and then bind with either Aliphatic or cement.
I think now I would use thinned cement - such as thinned Duco or Ambroid over your way.Follow the very good advice on the forums here for glue type and construction.
Build the wing flat in one piece, crack or make a angled cut just outsidethe poly ribs and then  add the tip dihedral gluing up the crack or cut. I have recently started making an angled cut on the top of the LE and TE starting approx the thickness of the strip way from the poly rib and angled carefully down to a point under the rin - but not cutting all the way through. The little bit of balsa on the bottom acts as a hinge and the angled cut both enables one section to slide over the other and also gives good gluing area.
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 31, 2013, 12:06:54 AM
Hey John, I had to go and watch that vid again. You had like 38 seconds at least I think. That's 10 full seconds or more than my Butterfly's best time. I love that flight.

I will do my best to get good balsa and I build light as I can. I will be using Duco 50/50 or even more with acetone. It worked real well with the BF. I have tissue left over from the BF but may even try lighter film if I can get my hands on some.

I didn't notice in your drawings but is there any wash in on the inside wing? I can see the tilt on the stab in the video. I will PDF the drawings and check them out. I really can't see much on this PC.

The way you said to cut the wing for the tip dihedral is the same way I did the BF wing so I will do that also.

This will be fun and I'm having a harder time waiting to get my build area done.  ;)

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on December 31, 2013, 03:43:26 AM
i don't have any intentional washin on the inside wing Jimmy, but it does have a longer centre panel on the left wing which has the same effect.
However at higher torque levels the motor stick is twisted a small amount and this twist is transferred to the wing by the wing posts - the aft one being further deflected to port than the front - so it adds a bit of washin for the first couple of circuits.
Its good and bad - good because it helps to avoid the model rolling into the ground, bad - because it opens up the turn and makes it a bit harder to miss the walls etc on the first couple of circuits.
In my lounge room there is a definite sweet spot for the launches.
If you can keep it lighter - and fly on lighter rubber it will be easier to fly in a restricted space.
I'm sure I had some lighter rubber all those years ago. Some of the long mini stick flights must look magic as I remember even a minute with mine was neat back then.
I'm glad you're enjoying this Jimmy and hope it flies well for you as well.
John
just added another copy of the first drawing as some of the dimensions didn't show. You'll notice that its a bit bigger than a mini stick at around 10" WS.


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on December 31, 2013, 07:16:34 PM
Thanks for the updated drawing John. I am not overly worried about the turn getting a bit wide. My family room is quite wide and I think a good place to fly a properly trimmed mini. I am thinking the bigger ws on a small guy capable of actual living room flight is all the better with the lighter wing loading eh?

I will just buy some rubber from A2Z. I looked at the Poonker ad Minislick and wow, they used extremely small rubber... that and really long loops. No wonder they are both 15 minute capable. The Poonker has 14" of .018 and 4160 turns. The Minislick is written for a 15" loop of .022 and 3525 turns. Of course these are set for indoor competition and not living room duty so I will have to do some math & R&D.

When these plans say a 15" loop, is that 15" in length from end to end before it is tied off? Or the actual loop after tied up is 15" long? Seems like it would be the first guess. That is some seriously light and high wound rubber. I am curious to see what would work for living room duty without serious climb.

So that will be the challenge for now... a set up that will carry a 40 second to 1 minute flight, 8' or less diameter circular flight and extremely low (none?) climb.
An actual Living Room Stick.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!  ;D
Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on January 01, 2014, 12:50:28 AM
Jimmy a 15'" loop means 15" length of a unstretched loop after tying. i usually allow an extra 11/2" for the knot.
The maximum no of turns depends on the quality and size of the rubber and the intended use. Competitors will - particularly in outdoors flying - wind to 90+% of max breaking turns. Sports flyers - probably only wind to approx 80% at most of the breaking turns.
You can see how a light clean model reall helps - less weigh,less power required,smaller rubber size - more turns - longer powered flight.
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: Jimmy JFlyer on January 01, 2014, 09:40:41 AM
Really??? Wow, so then the loop, unwound, is actually as long as, if not longer than the plane eh?

I looked at the Minislick maiden flight vid by Alan and see the whole flight the rubber is still quite wound even at landing. I was wondering how it would be with the huge length of rubber hanging from it but it probably does not get unwound that far. Looking at what you are saying, it all makes perfect sense.

Thanks for another lesson and taking the time to teach a newb John!  ;)

Jimmy


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on January 01, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
Yes thats correct Jimmy. I usually start with a loop length around 1.5x the distance between the prop hook and the rear hook. Indoor models quite often have more.
Its not only done for more turns - it enables the motor to have a smoother power delivery through a larger % of the run time. Thats only a very basic answer however - better rubber minds than mine would give a better answer.
Its one of the attractions of rubber models - matching power and torque to the model and the use.
No problems - its a pleasure to be able to help.
John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: herreraa on June 02, 2018, 03:08:28 PM
Dear All,
I have just build mine yesterday . Unfortunatelly, does not fly.
It is made on foam.
weight :2.65gr
rubber ( smallest i can buy, i do not have a cutter): 1/6 x 1/32 (1.58mm x 0.9 mm), loop pf aout 7.5in (about 19mm)
turns:600 or 700
CG : is about plans

Problem: At high torque fly nose down , later goes ok for a couple of turns then goes tail heavy then looses lift ad fall to the grown.

I have tried everything:
- move wings forward
-move wing angle of attack
-reduce length of tail to move make it glide better nose heavy but nothig work.
-use a single string not a loop of 1/16


can you please share weight of the tail of your models?

Any additional advice?

I will try to make a video.

Thanks

Alex


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on June 03, 2018, 09:46:17 PM
I suspect that the rubber motor is bending your motor stick under full power. This would cause the tail to increase it's angle of attack and kill the climb.

How does it fly on lower motor winds?

Try adding a bit of balsa - 0.8 or so along the top of the motor stick to stiffen it in bending.

Try sourcing some smaller rubber form indoor suppliers or perhaps SAMS in England.

Good luck.

John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: herreraa on June 04, 2018, 08:57:16 AM
John,
Many thanks for the response . The planes goes very good and even climb in middle turns but as soon as i get low turns gets tail heavy , stalls and fall to the floor.
I will follow your advice to see if helps but it will add weight and get a smaller rubber.
Do you happen to know the size of the rubber that came with the ikara butterfly kit?

Thanks again,

Alex
 


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: OZPAF on June 04, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
I would hold off doing that for a moment Alex as what you describe sounds more like a balance / thrust problem.

Check the balance point - with the rubber motor first. Also check the thrust line - make sure you do not have any up thrust.

If both of these seem ok - then take the motor off and the prop, and balance the model at the right place without them. Now check the model on the glide and trim for a slow but not stalling glide(onto a bed or something soft). Only change the wing incidence or the tail - leave the balance point where it is on the plan. Add the prop but not the motor, rebalance the model at it's cg and check again the glide again. You may need to make a minor adjustment.

Fit your motor and rebalance, Try on low turns - 50 -100 and you should get a slow circle or 2. Increase the turns in small steps and add down thrust if it power stalls - don't change the incidence settings of the wing or tail.

These small rubber models can be very tricky to trim and the heavier they are - the harder it gets. Have a search through HPA for info on mini sticks - there are much better indoor rubber heads than me on this Forum.

Good luck.

John


Title: Re: FF Newb builds an Ikara Butterfly...
Post by: herreraa on June 05, 2018, 09:19:51 AM
Many Thanks I will try it.