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Outdoor Free Flight Forum => P-30 Class Sport and Competition => Topic started by: jakepF1D on August 04, 2013, 11:41:10 PM



Title: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 04, 2013, 11:41:10 PM
I'm a longtime indoor flyer, but I've always had an interest in outdoor.  I decided to buy the Majestyk P-30 kit from Campbell's and see how it goes.  We have an outdoor contest here in a few weeks and I'm hoping to have this ready to fly by then.  I've attached a few pictures of the build so far. 

The stab is done and after shaping the LE and a bunch of sanding it's ready to cover.  I have no idea what my weights should be, but the stab weighs 2.17 grams as it sits. 

The fin is solid 1/16" C-grain sheet and it weighs 1 gram.

The first fuse side is built and I'm building the second on top of it right now.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: orbiteer127 on August 05, 2013, 12:25:52 AM
Hi JakeF1D,
  I have only built one p-30 and I was told that 40 grams is your target weight but I can't remember if that is before or after you add the weight of the rubber ( max of 10 grams). It seems you are on the correct path though.

Keep us all posted
William


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Scottl0413 on August 05, 2013, 10:00:21 AM
Jake, the Majestyk P30 is a great opener into outdoor free flight. It was my first build after a 40 year absence from the hobby and it didn't let me down. Target weight for P30 is 40 grams including 10 grams max. motor. My Majestyk flys best on 6 strands of 1/8" rubber. Finished weight was 46 grams.

Scott


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: applehoney on August 05, 2013, 10:07:30 AM
No!      Minimum weight for a P30 airframe is 40gms   (in N.America) ...  the maximum weight for the additional rubber motor is 10 gms

Respectfully, to Scott - if your model is 46 gms with rubber .. it's underweight.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: ram on August 05, 2013, 10:07:45 AM
Rules are here: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2013-2014OutdoorFreeFlight2.pdf

Airframe weight is 40 grams minimum EXCLUDING rubber motor of 10 grams maximum.

Rey

Looks like Jim beat me to it!


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 05, 2013, 12:02:48 PM
Does anyone have suggestions on the DT?  I've heard from a couple people that the pop up stab isn't always enough and I might want to consider a pop up wing, or even having the wing come off on a tether. 

On the build itself, I got the second half of the fuse together last night.  I ordered some jigs from Bob Holman and I'm going to wait for them to arrive before I finish assembling the fuselage.  Tonight I plan to begin framing up the wing.  I'll post more pictures as I make progress.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: applehoney on August 05, 2013, 03:24:58 PM
Tip-up tail is generally effective but on a P30 a good thermal will overpower it.

A tip-up wing is very effective ....    a drop-off wing or stabiliser does the job.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Rewinged on August 05, 2013, 04:02:28 PM
Jake,

Really glad to hear you'll be joining us for some outdoor flying this year! 

As for the DT, a popup stab will very possibly be inadequate at the August contest (NWFF Champs).  It would possibly be OK at the next contest, and most probably be OK at the last contest.

But the thermals in Tangent in August can be very strong.  I once lost a CLG after full DT with a popup boom.  After DT, it started to descend and then started back up.  The boom with stab was at 90 degrees to the wing!  The wing loading of that CLG was pretty close to what a typical P-30 would be, so I wouldn't trust just a popup stab. 

--Bill


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 05, 2013, 04:20:12 PM
Bill,

Kurt has offered to let me use one of his viscous timers.  I'll need to figure out a way to mount it and I think I want to try a pop up wing and stab if possible.  I'm concerned about having the wing fly back through the tail surfaces so I want to avoid a pop off wing.

Jake


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: atesus on August 05, 2013, 05:30:39 PM
Tip-up tail is generally effective but on a P30 a good thermal will overpower it.

A tip-up wing is very effective ....    a drop-off wing or stabiliser does the job.

I've been thinking about the various approaches to the DT and by my own uneducated reasoning I came to the conclusion  that pop-up wing and pop-up tail should be pretty much the same thing with the exception the attitude of the fuselage in DT mode. Is pop-up wing really more effective? (Assuming pop up=tilt up). In many cases it's easier and more advantageous to implement the pop-up wing, so the increased effectiveness would be a welcome bonus.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: FLYACE1946 on August 05, 2013, 06:46:27 PM
Pop off the wing and gravity wins... It never fails. Ask me how I lost my Majestyk P-30. The stab dt worked and even tho the stab was flying formation apart of the remainder it all went away .


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 05, 2013, 07:00:40 PM
At this point I'm planning to do what's shown in the attached link.  It's a fairly simple set up that will pop up the wing and stab.  It's shown mounted to a pylon, but I should be able to sheet in a couple bays under the wing on the Majestyk for mounting and make this system work.  The instructions also cover a system for popping off the wing, but I don't want to do that.

http://www.cbmodeldesigns.com/manuals/boomer-mkii-wing-dt-instructions-rev-nc.pdf


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: orbiteer127 on August 05, 2013, 09:20:36 PM
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to comment on the stabilizer dt. Scale Staffel in San Diego just had a contest this past weekend and we watched six planes fly away even after we could see the stabilizer DT pop. It was heart breaking to watch. But
with the help of many people and many hours we were able to find four of them.

I'm now changing my dt to main wing DTs
William



Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: danberry on August 06, 2013, 07:17:56 PM
When you pop off the wing, they come down in a hurry.
When you tip the stab, Tip up the wing or combine the two--- they come down.
Somewhere.
Eventually.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 07, 2013, 01:50:58 PM
After doing a lot of pre-sanding to remove fuzz and saw marks, I assembled the two center sections of the wing and glued the LE and TE together with the proper dihedral.  I forgot to take a picture last night so I'll post that later this evening. 

I plan to build the tips tonight and attach them.  The next step will be adding the ribs and gussets at the diherdral joints, and finally gluing in the spars.  I'm not sure if this is the correct way to build a wing, but it seems to be working.  I'm also building in the wash-in and wash-out per the plans.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Maxout on August 07, 2013, 08:22:38 PM
When you pop off the wing, they come down in a hurry.
When you tip the stab, Tip up the wing or combine the two--- they come down.
Somewhere.
Eventually.

Listen to this man. He knows. You needn't worry about a pop off wing flying into the tail surfaces. In hundreds of pop-off DT operations, I've never seen that happen. What I have seen is that they come down in a hurry, yet somehow aren't even damaged when they come down on pavement.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: rbrpwr on August 08, 2013, 01:26:52 PM
Jake,
I separate the wing and fuselage to DT all my P-30's because everyone that had a rudder on top of the fuselage has contact marks.  The damage has been great enough that I have moved the rudder to the bottom on all.  First experiences were with Sparrowhawks, a fine flying machine, with a simple dihedral wing structure and an airfoiled rudder for turn. I just reversed the airfoil when I moved in to the fuselage bottom.  My latest are Stan B.'s designs, which use sheet rudders.  In both cases, I couldn't detect any performance changes.

I've seen too many P-30's go OOS with stab DT's.  I've only seen one P-30 slow down with the fuselage dragging the wing in a thermal.  The wing was spinning so fast that it looked like a prop.
Jeff


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: flydean1 on August 08, 2013, 10:07:09 PM
Question:  On wing pop-off DT systems, where do you attach the line that connects the wing to the fuselage?  Tip, polyhedral joint, or wing centerline?

On the only successful one built by my grandson some years ago, he attached it at the tip.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: danberry on August 08, 2013, 10:11:55 PM
I do it at the tip--50%.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: DerekMc on August 08, 2013, 11:48:47 PM
I do it at the tip--50%.

I do that as well.  One way to protect the rudder is to glue a short length of dt line between the rudder top leading edge and the fuselage at around a 45% or less angle. Serves as a ramp of sorts if the wing is heading for the rudder.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: rbrpwr on August 09, 2013, 01:42:35 PM
Flydean,
I attach it at the wing tip, with a swivel in the line.  The other end, I attach to the rear of the fuselage.
Jeff


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 12, 2013, 02:11:37 AM
I covered the stab tonight and got the wing almost ready to cover.  I plan to put the fuselage together tomorrow or Tuesday, and I hope to have everything ready to cover by this weekend.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on August 20, 2013, 03:52:22 PM
I finished building the fuselage over the weekend.  I used Bob Holman's jigs for assembly as you can see in the picture.  It's ready to cover except for finalizing the mount for the DT. 

Lew Gitlow gave me a huge roll (18 inches wide and at least 1000 feet long) of 1/4 mil mylar about 18 years ago and I plan to use it on the fuselage.  I'm going to follow DerekMC's directions for tissue over mylar and see how it goes.  I got a tube of Velcro glue and I plan to begin covering with the mylar tonight.  Right now the fuselage weighs 4.5 grams fully sanded and coated with 2 light coats of Aqua Net used as a sealer.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Modelace on August 21, 2013, 01:22:37 PM
Question:  On wing pop-off DT systems, where do you attach the line that connects the wing to the fuselage?  Tip, polyhedral joint, or wing centerline?

On the only successful one built by my grandson some years ago, he attached it at the tip.
Wingtip to rear of fuselage. When wing pops off, gravity drops fuselage and there is no contact of wing with tail surfaces. Listen to Maxout on this one..wing popoff works EVERY time.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: applehoney on August 21, 2013, 02:47:47 PM
Agreed - it does.     Attachment to a tip dihedral joints works well, too.

A small fishing swivel at the fuselage attachment is advisable, too.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on September 10, 2013, 12:54:54 PM
I've been busy lately, but I managed to get the fuselage covered over the weekend.  I used Derek's tissue over mylar technique and it worked well.  It's not perfect, but for my first attempt I'm pretty happy with the result.

I also covered the wing with tissue last night (no mylar on the wing).  All that remains to finish the build is to put a few coats of dope on the wing and finish mounting the DT. 

I'm going against everyone's recommendation and sticking with a simple pop up stab DT.  The only change I'm making from the plans is I'm using a viscous timer mounted under the wing rather than the rear mounted fuse.  I already have plans to build a Marie II, so if I lose this model in a thermal I'll live with it. 

I'll post pictures of the almost finished model this evening and it should see a maiden flight this weekend at the WMC contest in Tangent, OR.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: mkirda on September 11, 2013, 11:04:48 PM
Funny you built one of these, Jake.

I also did one earlier this summer, came out at 34 grams. I guess that F1D experience helps.
I opted to build a MkII with rolled fuse out of 1/32" x 3/4"ID with GizmoGeezer prop assembly.

If all goes well, it too will fly this weekend, Sunday afternoon at a Bong Eagles Fun Fly.

Regards.
Mike Kirda



Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on September 12, 2013, 01:39:20 AM
Mine isn't quite that light.  As pictured it weighs 40.2 grams.  The rubber bands I used on the wing are pretty heavy so I should be able to get down to almost exactly 40 grams.  The only thing left is to make a stuff stick and get a motor in it to check the CG.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: DerekMc on September 12, 2013, 08:15:28 AM
Looks good Jake! Well done. Hopefully you will get many flights on it before it disappears in a thermal!


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on September 12, 2013, 11:59:57 AM
I've noticed that most models have the flyer's AMA number displayed on the wing.  Is that a requirement?  I want to make sure I'm all legal for the competition.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: NormF on September 12, 2013, 12:08:04 PM
I've noticed that most models have the flyer's AMA number displayed on the wing.  Is that a requirement?  I want to make sure I'm all legal for the competition.

From the AMA Rule Book: Outdoor FF
3. Identification. All Outdoor Free Flight models shall be identified by the contestant’s AMA license number being permanently affixed to the upper side of the right-hand or the left-hand main lifting surface (excepting Helicopter, Autogiro and Ornithopter which revert to General Information—All Categories; subheading General; paragraph 4, Identification). Height of the numerals must be at least one (1") inch or one-third (1/3) of the wing root chord, whichever is less. Both stroke and width shall be such to enable ready recognition. (Example: Numeral ―O‖ should have a width of approximately one-half (1/2) the height or wider, with other digits being of the same proportion.)

Also- don't forget your name and phone #.

Good looking P-30!

NormF


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: carpetbagger on September 12, 2013, 12:59:20 PM
Well I'm convinced a pop off wing is they to un-fly, but where does the line go? Okay, midpoint of wingtip - got it, to tail of fuselage, got it, but does the line sort of go directly to tail? Like hanging out in the breeze? And what kind of line? I suspect 4# or 6# monofiliment fish line is plenty. Oh yeah, and I have lots of swivels, ball bearing ones even.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: DerekMc on September 12, 2013, 01:03:46 PM
Well I'm convinced a pop off wing is they to un-fly, but where does the line go? Okay, midpoint of wingtip - got it, to tail of fuselage, got it, but does the line sort of go directly to tail? Like hanging out in the breeze? And what kind of line? I suspect 4# or 6# monofiliment fish line is plenty. Oh yeah, and I have lots of swivels, ball bearing ones even.

Tip to tail with swivel, hanging out in the breeze. Make sure you run the line over the stab!  I use hi-Viz 20 lb. Fly line backing so I know it's connected and easier to see than monofilament.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: carpetbagger on September 12, 2013, 01:18:52 PM
Well I'm convinced a pop off wing is they to un-fly, but where does the line go? Okay, midpoint of wingtip - got it, to tail of fuselage, got it, but does the line sort of go directly to tail? Like hanging out in the breeze? And what kind of line? I suspect 4# or 6# monofiliment fish line is plenty. Oh yeah, and I have lots of swivels, ball bearing ones even.

Tip to tail with swivel, hanging out in the breeze. Make sure you run the line over the stab!  I use hi-Viz 20 lb. Fly line backing so I know it's connected and easier to see than monofilament.

Thanks! Yeah, I figured it would have to go over the stab. I probably have hi-vis line in my fishing stuff, no fly line backing, I do surf fishing, but often rig with line I can see after tossing the bait in the ocean.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: danberry on September 12, 2013, 01:32:16 PM
Braided dacron works for the line.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: carpetbagger on September 12, 2013, 01:36:04 PM
Hmm . . . I have lots of V-69 sail thread I use for sewing sailboat sails. I seem to recall it is strong, have to pull test it . ..


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Oldtime Flyer on September 13, 2013, 06:38:35 PM
Damn, that's a good looking P-30.    ;)

Otf'er.....


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Dave Andreski on September 13, 2013, 06:49:44 PM
Damn, that's a good looking P-30.    ;)

Otf'er.....


I agree, especially 'cause it's your design THOM!
Dave


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on September 14, 2013, 11:45:10 PM
To close out this thread, the model flew great!  I had a couple test flights with less than full winds that easily went over 2 minutes.  On the first test flight I had the DT set way too long and the model ultimately landed a few feet from the road after more than 4 minutes.  I made the max on my first official, but I launched in some really bad air on the second and dropped the flight with an 82.  I got a max on the 3rd flight, but of course it didn't matter.  I'm looking forward to flying the Majestyk again next summer.  For now I need to do some research on picking air. 

Thanks to Bill Swift for loaning me a stooge and winder, and a big thanks to Kurt Schuler for all the help he gave me during the build.

Jake


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: DerekMc on September 15, 2013, 09:58:01 AM
Way cool Jake! And welcome to the joys and frustrations of picking air. As soon as you figure it out, let the rest of us know! You did a great job on that Majestyk! It is an excellent design. I look forward to competing with you next year.


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: FF Bruce on September 16, 2013, 09:13:52 PM
Jake,
  I saw it go on Sat. very nice.Are you coming to the Oct. meet?


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: Rewinged on September 16, 2013, 09:19:14 PM
Yes, Jake, your Majestyk flew very well!!  Too bad about the one drop--would have been fun to have had another person joking around with us on Sunday.

--Bill


Title: Re: Majestyk P-30 build
Post by: jakepF1D on September 16, 2013, 10:41:14 PM
Unfortunately I'm going backpacking the weekend of the Fall contest.  I'm hoping to make all the outdoor contests next year, and maybe bring a couple more models.  I plan to build a Marie II next, and maybe I'll try a Red Buzzard after that.  For now though I'm beginning to prepare for the indoor season starting with a new microfilm model.