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Indoor Free Flight Forum => Manhattan Cabin => Topic started by: Sundance12 on February 07, 2009, 01:40:15 PM



Title: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Sundance12 on February 07, 2009, 01:40:15 PM
Are there any participants in this area even in the slightest? Or is Manhattan dead?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Sundance12


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Maxout on February 07, 2009, 10:55:43 PM
Bruce,

 It doesn't see enough attention, but is definitely flown at the US Nats every year. I've seen pictures of ones being flown in Europe, though Sainte Formula gets more attention there. About the wildest, thing I've heard is that somebody flew a Manhattan in Dawn Ulimited one time. Don't know if it won or not, but it would have definitely been in running if handled properly in calm weather.

 Manhattans are definitely fun airplanes. That is for sure. The rules are pretty simple and what you end up with is essentially a limited pennyplane with a cabin fuselage. The lack of major limitations on materials mean that you could use enough composites that the airplane would be usable outdoors in light winds.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on April 17, 2010, 07:55:11 AM
New to the forum, first post.

Manhattan Cabin flew in the 1980's at Columbia University's Lowe Memorial Library Rotunda as part of CIMAS Columbia Indoor Miniature Aircraft Society's monthly flights events, one Sunday each month. The Bill Tyler Trophy was held by the annual winner. There were always Manhattans, Penny Planes and Easy-B's drifting about beneath the 105ft dome, along with many Peanuts and Bostonians.

My Brother Bob, his boys and my daughter had some participation, and now, I have grandkids who are beginning to show some interest in Grampy's stick and paper oddities. My Brother Bill passed a few years back, out by Phoenix AZ, where he golfed, and hs gas free flight efforts produced the ever-evolving Robot design. Bob and my family are Mew Yorkers. Bob's in White Plains, and I'm in tiny Dundee, about 15 miles NW of Watkins Glen, alongside Seneca Lake.

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dosco on September 02, 2010, 11:17:21 AM
Greg:

I went to college on Long Island and attended a CIMAS event (IIRC in 1991). I watched Dave Aronstein fly his coconut Cessna Caravan ... spectacular. I hosted 2 or 3 indoor events at my college gymnasium ... I can't recall all the participants but I do remember that Don Ross, Bob Bender, and Sal Alu came to a few.

After college I moved around a bit and left NY.

I thought I'd ask ... what ever happened to Bob Bender? I know that Sal passed away in the early 90s and Don hosts the "Cross Files" column in FM magazine.

Cheers-
Dave


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on September 02, 2010, 04:45:22 PM
When CIMAS stopped operating, i dropped out of modelling and only returned more recently. I also moved from North Jersey to Central NY, North of Watkins Glen. I knew all those guys, but lost track long ago.

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dosco on September 03, 2010, 02:07:21 PM
When CIMAS stopped operating, i dropped out of modelling and only returned more recently. I also moved from North Jersey to Central NY, North of Watkins Glen. I knew all those guys, but lost track long ago.

Greg

No problems, I understand.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Dimeflyer on September 07, 2010, 05:56:22 PM
Hey guys

What is a manhattan? - what dimensions? - stick sizes? - wingspan? fuse w-l-d? I remember a friend of mine building these years ago but don't remember anything else about them?????

George


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: ssmith on September 07, 2010, 11:12:30 PM
A Manhattan Cabin model is essentially a 4 gram Pennyplane with a built-up cabin that must meet a minimum volume requirement and landing gear. The model must ROG.

Attached are the AMA Rules and a picture of a Manhattan model I am currently building.

The model is the Columbia Cruiser II from the Ron Williams Indoor Airplane book.

Steve
www.indoorcolo.org


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Dimeflyer on September 08, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
S. Smith

Thank you for that info Sir!!

George


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: ronw on September 18, 2011, 10:39:10 PM
A Manhattan Cabin model is essentially a 4 gram Pennyplane with a built-up cabin that must meet a minimum volume requirement and landing gear. The model must ROG.

Attached are the AMA Rules and a picture of a Manhattan model I am currently building.

The model is the Columbia Cruiser II from the Ron Williams Indoor Airplane book.

Steve
www.indoorcolo.org

Gee, did I design that? I looked it up and I guess so. I wish the site would allow the photos to be enlarged so one could see them better.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on September 19, 2011, 07:34:15 AM
Hi, Ron; log time no chat. I have always been totally grateful for the boost you gave indoor flying and CIMAS. We lost that site to political correctness. Your book put my Daughter Jen on the road to aeromodelling. My copy probably ended up on some youngster's building table. Of late, I've been sizing up our local school's Gym spaces and wondering how to get them available for indoor flying. Soon, I think, maybe...

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Dimeflyer on September 19, 2011, 03:07:09 PM
Wow I thought this page died a long time ago ?
George


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Steven Wrigley on September 24, 2011, 06:19:07 PM
Greg how did you loose your flying sight due to political correctness? I didnt know you flew indoors!


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on September 25, 2011, 08:39:03 AM
I neither wish to open old wounds nor breed issues with the folks in charge. Short story long, an outside group (not CIMAS) ran a public even on school grounds and bad things happened. Consequently, all outside groups were forbidden to use school grounds. Maybe not the purest interpretation of political correctness, but I'm at a loss what else to call it.

Back on topic, I wonder where the Bill Tyler Memorial Trophy ended up.

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dosco on September 29, 2011, 12:16:08 PM
I neither wish to open old wounds nor breed issues with the folks in charge. Short story long, an outside group (not CIMAS) ran a public even on school grounds and bad things happened. Consequently, all outside groups were forbidden to use school grounds. Maybe not the purest interpretation of political correctness, but I'm at a loss what else to call it.

Back on topic, I wonder where the Bill Tyler Memorial Trophy ended up.

Greg

Too bad but IMO not a surprise. Seems like flying sites are becoming less available as time marches on.

Not sure I'd call it "PC," perhaps a better way to think of it as "zero tolerance." Or "one bad apple ..."



Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: lincoln on April 16, 2012, 12:45:32 PM
Manhattan Cabin to be flown at upcoming contest in Glastonbury, CT on April 22, 2012
see:   http://www.newg.info/events.html


> Glastonbury indoor will be flying the following events on April 22
starting
> at 8am: Easy-B, Limited Penny Plane, HL Glider, Bostonian (14 grams),
> Manhattan Cabin, FAC No-Cal (3 gram min), FAC Peanut, FAC Scale, WWI, WWII
> and Golden Age Mass Launch, P-24 and Backstrom Born Loser (our Armstead
> trophy)

It's been a long time since I've flown there. I recall the ceiling as 30 to 40 feet.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on March 27, 2014, 02:04:40 PM
I flew Manhattan, EZB, and unlimited pennyplane in the late 1980's, and Jen set a national youth Cat III unlimited pennyplane record at one point. Now she's in her early 40's and has 3 kids from 5 y/o to 17 y/o.

Indoor Endurance at Columbia was the most fun I've ever had with my pants on, and I also competed in F Class Rifle at 1000yd. I miss the old Columbia gang.

Bob still flies power free flight somewhere around Middletown NY, but with about 6 hours worth of road between us, our meeting have become somewhat sparse. He spends a good bit of his time with his boys and his Grandson Jeffery. If I thought I could find a local site and gathering, I'd get back into indoor. It's a builder's game, and I love to build indoor planes, but FAI is way beyond my skills.

BTW, does anybody still use condenser paper, and if not, what's the current equivalent?

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Olbill on March 27, 2014, 03:26:59 PM
Greg
As far as I know the only event that people use condenser paper for these days is A6.

To all
Because of the 1.2g minimum weight for A6 only the very lightest of CP will let you get down to 1.2g. Getting that type of CP these days is nearly impossible. For that reason and also b/c CP is a nightmare to work with there are two current AMA rule change proposals that would allow Mylar covering on A6's. If you think this is a good idea then lobbying the indoor contest board members to vote for the proposals would be a big help.

Some of you probably know that I participate very heavily in A6 and hold several records. Being able to use Mylar covering is not going to make my models fly a lot better if any. What it WILL do is make it possible for others who don't have access to the very best of materials to build competitive A6's. And I think this would be a really good thing.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: frash on March 27, 2014, 09:20:46 PM
Olbill,

As you know I am not very competitive in A-6, but have flown it several years at the USIC. I favor the change to film covering.

Fred Rash


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Olbill on March 27, 2014, 10:03:35 PM
Fred
Lobbying of the indoor board members is what's needed. Please consider doing this.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: frash on March 28, 2014, 03:02:44 PM
Bill,

I did by starting with you. <Grin> Thanks. Maybe I should copy the others also.

Fred Rash


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Flyguy on March 28, 2014, 03:42:22 PM
Nice to see some activity in Manhattan Cabin. Though I never built one, it's been on my to-do list for decades, they just look so nice.

I flew Manhattan, EZB, and unlimited pennyplane in the late 1980's, and Jen set a national youth Cat III unlimited pennyplane record at one point. Now she's in her early 40's and has 3 kids from 5 y/o to 17 y/o.

Indoor Endurance at Columbia was the most fun I've ever had with my pants on, and I also competed in F Class Rifle at 1000yd. I miss the old Columbia gang.
Greg

I couldn't agree more Greg, it was really a great crowd. Ed Whitten, who invented Manhattan Cabin back in the 60's, and his son Richard flew Manhattans and other planes regularly at Columbia, I always thought they looked fantastic in the air, which was part of Ed's motivation for the design. Ed was also the editor of the New York Indoor Times. Here's a blast from the past - I scanned a page with Rotunda records as of 91. Who had the record (since 82!) of the top EZB at that time? Pete Andrews with 16:40, what a surprise, you'll see that Pete also had the record for Manhattan at 8:38 and Pusher at 12:23 (and Pete was such a nice guy as well)! I got up to 14:37 in EZB and was looking forward to spending the next few years trying to catch up to Pete's record, but we lost the Rotunda shortly after this issue came out.

Greg, I see your daughter Jen (I guess Ed misspelled it as Jan? he also added a space in my last name, oh well) had the Junior record for embryo, nice! Also many other well known modelers are on the list.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Olbill on March 28, 2014, 06:50:44 PM
Bill,

I did by starting with you. <Grin> Thanks. Maybe I should copy the others also.

Fred Rash

Good idea Fred!


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on May 05, 2014, 08:48:30 AM
Actually Ed didn't misspell, that's Jen's Cousin Jan, Bob's youngest.

He now has an Aero Eng. Degree from TX State, was a design team leader for the Boeing 777, and has garnered a wall-full of First Place AMA Nats plaques for H/L gliders.

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Hepcat on May 05, 2014, 11:16:49 AM
Reference Reply #9.

Ron,
Did you know that a 'left click' of the mouse on a 'thumbnail' picture will usually shew the picture at a larger size?  Also this new larger picture will usually have some symbols at the top RH corner: an arrow to move to the next picture in a series, an X to close the pictures and, between the arrow and the X, a square with an arrow pointing from the north-east corner.  Clicking the 'square with arrow' usually produces an even larger view.  In the case of your Manhattan in reply #8 the image was larger than my computer screen.

Like everyone else I treasure my copy of your book.  It is obviously out-of-date in some areas but that does not detract from the basic information which is imparted with warmth and enthusiasm and the illustrations are a source of constant delight.
John


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: piecost on May 05, 2014, 11:33:14 AM
Regarding Ron's book

Hepcat wrote:

"Like everyone else I treasure my copy of your book.  It is obviously out-of-date in some areas but that does not detract from the basic information which is imparted with warmth and enthusiasm and the illustrations are a source of constant delight."

I couldn't agree more. I own hundreads of books and yours is a firm favourate.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Pat Daily on October 07, 2014, 06:13:39 PM
I used to enjoy Manhattan many years ago when we flew indoor at various DC Maxecuter venues.  Here is a photo of "Pink Lady"--my own design and all the balsa structure was painted with pink dye and covered with condenser paper.  They were a lot of fun.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: frash on October 07, 2014, 09:04:27 PM
I don't know about 2013-4, but Manhattan Cabin was flown for many years at the AMA Indoor FF Nats/US Indoor Championships, usually with 2-3 contestants. Google Indoor News and Views and you can look up most of these contest results. INAV is now on Word Press, is edited by Nick Ray, and seems to be available to all free with much indoor info for downloading or reading.

Fred Rash


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Pat Daily on November 07, 2014, 05:52:35 PM
Surely some of you must have photos of your Manhattans besides me.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: BernardB on December 20, 2014, 01:39:40 PM
Looks a lot like the Sainte formule class. Still flown by a small amount of people in Europe.

I've attached a picture of my model. The weight is 3 grams minimum without rubber.
Max 15 cm prop with a max blade chord of 25 mm.
The wheels have to be 18 mm in diameter.
Max fuselage length 330 mm, with a minimum cross section of 30 by 40 mm over a length of 50 mm.
Max wingspan is 330 mm with a chord of 80 mm.
Max span of the tail is 150 mm with a chord of 60 mm.
Covering: everything is allowed except microfilm.






Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Pat Daily on December 29, 2014, 10:40:55 AM
Nice looking plane and very light!


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on October 13, 2016, 11:50:29 AM
Resuscitating the dead (topic, that is), my Wife, Celia, and I recently moved to SE Arizona, South and East of Tucson, just about 50 miles North of Mexico. Those last few frigid Winters in Central NY did us in. We packed for a road trip in Early November to visit friends in Port Orange/Daytona, then stayed until New years and spent 8 days in Disney with Jen and her(our) kiddos.

Following that, we set out to find a new home in Texas. Stops at Pensacola (Naval Aviation Museum - WOW), New Orleans, two weeks crisscrossing Texas, then on to Arizona for another few weeks. Put down a bid in Pearce/Sunsites, bid accepted, and set off for home, arriving just in time to catch the second half of the Superbowl. Just slightly more than 10,000 miles inclusive.

Packed up, left on Monday 5/24/16 shortly after closing, and drove to Pearce pulling a U-Haul, leaving behind everything that didn't fit the U-Haul. We arrived Saturday afternoon, Memorial Day W/E. Since then we've been unpacking, settling in, and slowly replacing the stuff we left behind. We did the math, and buying new came out to be more economical than shipping the old stuff out to here. Everything is different, and we love every bit of the difference. The 4800ft altitude and dryer climate are helping both of us with our slowly acquired debilities and pains associated with getting to 70 (myself, that is).

I'm hoping to get some indoor flyers together (planes and people both); and who knows, a resurgence of Manhattan Cabin here in the Southwest just may be in the offing.

Maybe another name and some tweaks may be in order. For one thing, we live in the shadow of Cochise's Stronghold...

More to come,

Greg Langelius


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: FFScott on October 14, 2016, 03:32:47 PM
Was Yellownia a Manhattan?  I have always wanted to build one of those, but not sure I have the skills.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: danmellor on October 14, 2016, 04:19:15 PM
Yeloise was indeed a Manhattan. Not hard to build, but care in alignment is a must. It would be easy to build a banana. There is footage on YouTube of mine on a trimming flight.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: FFScott on October 14, 2016, 11:08:30 PM
Oops, sorry for the misnaming.  I first had thought "Yellowmania" but knew that wasn't correct...


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Olbill on October 15, 2016, 09:19:11 AM
Ron Williams' book has an extensive section on Manhattens. If I ever get around to building one that will be where I start looking for info.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: danmellor on October 15, 2016, 09:27:46 AM
This was mine! Built around 6 years ago and sadly no more after a house move. It's a lovely design...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Flyguy on October 15, 2016, 12:23:59 PM
Beautiful plane Dan, I've always thought this was an interesting design! Thanks for the pic, would be nice to see others. Really makes me want to build one (but no flying space dammit!), especially now that you can use plastic to cover them (I grew up with condenser paper, and still have tons I'd be happy to give away, but I was never fond of it, although if you shrink the heck out of it it's a little more stable). But I wonder about this part of the rules regarding the windshield (from AMA):

    "The fuselage must include a windshield of two (2) square inches minimum area and a window on each side of one (1) square inch minimum; windshield and windows to be cellophane or
      similar transparent material. If transparent covering is used on the fuselage, then the windshield and windows must be outlined in a contrasting color."

I don't totally get the last part - so let's say I mylar the fuselage, including windows (sounds like the above is saying that's OK instead of cellophane), is it saying that I can then use a felt pen or strips of tissue or something to just outline the window area and I'm done (that would be great)? Any examples?

Of course this is all dreaming, though pleasant dreaming, unless I find a place to fly indoors (still working on it).





Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 16, 2016, 10:01:44 AM
I don't totally get the last part - so let's say I mylar the fuselage, including windows (sounds like the above is saying that's OK instead of cellophane), is it saying that I can then use a felt pen or strips of tissue or something to just outline the window area and I'm done (that would be great)? Any examples?

Your are correct, when covering the model with all clear film, you then just use a marker or tissue or to outline a "window" area. When Manhattan was first flown they were condenser covered so the window was more obvious. When plastic was allowed in Mahattan some argued the whole fuselage was the "window" but to keep with the original intent of the event the outlining of the window was added. For those looking to make a Manhattan just be aware old plans have the 10" stab span not the current 12" span. They fly better with the bigger tail. 

I have always thought the Yeloise was a cool looking Manhattan but never found plans for it anywhere.

Don


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Maxout on October 16, 2016, 09:10:40 PM
I clearly need to build a Manhattan for next year. Should be a piece of cake after my AMA cabin build this year.  ;D


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: danmellor on October 18, 2016, 01:54:19 AM
Yeloise was published in Model Builder. Sorry I don't know the date/issue.

Dan.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 18, 2016, 06:58:51 AM
I found it, plan #10772. I have contacted the AMA for a price as they have all Model Builder plans now.

Thanks!

Don


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Bredehoft on October 18, 2016, 07:21:24 AM
my plan index states Oct 1977 issue.

--george


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 18, 2016, 01:14:14 PM
Just got the price from the AMA, the plan is $5 and postage is $5. Also AMA members get a 10% discount and a second copy of the same plane is half price. So $7.50 for two plans plus postage before discount.  AMA currently has a 20% off sale on plans until the end of October so that means $11 shipped for two copies.

Don


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 18, 2016, 01:15:43 PM
my plan index states Oct 1977 issue.

--george

Thanks!


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 18, 2016, 07:38:31 PM
Printed my form and sending it in tomorrow for a set of plans. Maybe a Yelosie build thread is in order? Next year will be the 40th anniversary since it was published in Model Builder.

Don


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: aardvark_bill on October 18, 2016, 10:52:26 PM
Sounds like fun Don!  I have that issue of the Model Builder on the arm of my chair and I'd build along with you.  I'll order the plans ASAP.
Billy


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: FFScott on October 19, 2016, 03:41:20 PM
I'd like to participate but need you experts to provide plenty of guidance.  How about it?


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 19, 2016, 08:08:42 PM
I will gladly post all my build info as I go along.

Don


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: FFScott on October 20, 2016, 10:17:28 AM
Thanks Don.  I believe I already have the set of plans for Yelonise.  I'll see if I can dig them out of my plans stack.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: dslusarc on October 31, 2016, 10:51:11 PM
My plans have arrived!

Don


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on August 29, 2019, 03:14:56 PM
Breathing some new life into this topic; I just don't think it should be allowed to wither on the vine.

Jan Langelius is now a Senior Project Engineer for Peterbilt, living in the Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex. He and his Dad, Bob, are probably making Bob's last trek to Muncie this year for the Nats. Bob's now 83, I'm 73.

https://dallasinnovates.com/peterbilt-trucks-propelled-by-a-bevy-of-fresh-ideas/ (https://dallasinnovates.com/peterbilt-trucks-propelled-by-a-bevy-of-fresh-ideas/) Jan's on the right.

Jen has adult children. Elena and Patrick live in our home here in SE AZ, and Jen lives and works very near by.

Reading through this topic without comment a couple of months back, I knuckled down and bought another ancient (replacement) copy of Ron's Indoor book. I've managed some copies of plans from it, and am very likely to build one or more of the Columbia model included. Not as easy, space is an issue with two additional inhabitants in the home; but heck, I built nearly all my earlier models on boards on my lap. The local grade school has a big Gym with a pretty tall ceiling. I may be able to wangle some time, as long as I can avoid difficulties in the process.

Building and flying Indoor at CIMAS transformed my building skills and I'd really like to get up and running again.

Anyhoo, this page has been turned again...

Greg


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: FFScott on August 29, 2019, 04:52:03 PM
Consider this: unless that is a small school, there are at least 10 kids in that school who would love the chance to build and fly a model airplane.  And you will never know who they are until you offer them that opportunity.


Title: Re: Is Manhattan Cabin even flown any more?
Post by: Greg Langelius on August 30, 2019, 10:37:38 AM
It is a small school, but your thinking and mine are in parallel.

But first, one must put one's bread upon the water...

Greg