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Outdoor Free Flight Forum => P-30 Class Sport and Competition => Topic started by: skyrocket on February 06, 2017, 01:36:15 PM



Title: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 06, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
Do we still have to use the ramp provided with the prop or can I saw the ramp off and use a Garami style clutch?...I really hate all that plastic up front with a ramp.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Bredehoft on February 06, 2017, 02:48:42 PM
Per the rules on the AMA website:

1.4. The propeller shall be a commercially available plastic freewheeling propeller between 23 and 25 centimeters (9.05 and 9.84 inches) in diameter. Only the following changes will be allowed:

1.4.1. Flashing may be removed.

1.4.2. Balancing by the addition of weight to one blade will be allowed.

1.4.3. Enlarging the hole of the propeller hub will be allowed in order to accept a larger diameter shaft and/or a bushing cut from metal tubing.

I am not a lawyer (or an AMA CD), but to me - you cannot remove the ramp and legally fly in an AMA P-30 event.

--george


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on February 06, 2017, 02:52:19 PM
And I'm pretty certain that you cannot add a Garami style clutch to the prop.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: ram on February 06, 2017, 02:54:17 PM
And I'm pretty certain that you cannot add a Garami style clutch to the prop.


Agreed, but you can add a clutch to the propshaft.  Just don't modify the prop.

Rey


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 06, 2017, 05:53:35 PM
Thanks everyone...it is I suspected and I appreciate the prompt reply...case closed.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: NeilH on February 06, 2017, 05:57:11 PM
The way I read it is that alt 2 and 3 are not allowed but the others are OK.

Neil


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 06, 2017, 06:02:59 PM
I like #6...similar to what I use with Old Timers...thanks for the tip...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: applehoney on February 06, 2017, 06:23:59 PM
2 and 3 not legal in N. America but acceptable in other parts of the world.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: calgoddard on February 06, 2017, 08:42:30 PM
If you have a hook-to-peg distance of approximately 19 inches in your P-30, and use a standard 6 x 1/8 inch 9.8 gram rubber motor (un-braided), a simple dog (L-shaped bend) on the forward part of the motor shaft will usually work just fine with the ramp, i.e. the P-30 prop will free wheel after the conclusion of the motor run.  The 19 inch hook-to-peg distance seems to be pretty typical in P-30 models.  I think that is the distance in all five of my P-30 models.

However, to be on the safe side, I recommend using one of the legal free-wheeling mechanisms.

That being said, I use the simple L-shaped dog on my Pirate P-30 with the 9 1/2 inch orange Chinese prop (from Volare Products) and it free wheels very reliably. See the attached picture.

The yellow Czech prop in the picture is equipped with a bail-type free wheeling mechanism from Volare Products, and it has never failed to free wheel.  It has the advantage of allowing rapid replacement of props.

In both cases I used the black plastic GizmoGeezer nose bearing assembly to allow for accurate thrust line adjustments.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Tapio Linkosalo on February 07, 2017, 12:56:28 AM

I've been a happy camper using the molded wedge on the front of the prop. Less than 1 flight of - maybe - 100 has had the prop bind due to motor bunching and pulling the shaft tight. It helps to have large enough diameter fuselage so that rubber does not bunch. In the other hand, for a releasing clutch the bunching rubber easily causes a "shaft run" when the motor unwinding is stoppedlong enough to a premature release the clutch. Here too larger motor tube helps.

One thing that is important for the operation is to bend the loop in the front end of the shaft so that the cross bar is trailing the shaft on the wedge. This way the torque/pressure loads onto the outer edge of the wedge, so that it holds firmly and does not easily slip. Nor wear the wedge prematurely.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 07, 2017, 08:17:55 AM
ref #8 & #9...yep, that seems to be the way to go but I'm not crazy about the Gizmo-Geezer...being a Luddite, I like to make everything myself...thanks everyone!!


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on February 07, 2017, 10:18:47 AM
ref #8 & #9...yep, that seems to be the way to go but I'm not crazy about the Gizmo-Geezer...being a Luddite, I like to make everything myself...thanks everyone!!

The ramp freewheeler does a fine job.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 07, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
yep...that's where I'm going...right now I'm working on a new P-30 with a short motor tube built up from 3/32" squares, geodetic, streamlined mated to a Carbon boom and the wing/stab from my Panther and a Chinese orange prop...9 grams ready to cover...I got the idea from those French 'coupes from the sixties...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on February 07, 2017, 09:39:01 PM
yep...that's where I'm going...right now I'm working on a new P-30 with a short motor tube built up from 3/32" squares, geodetic, streamlined mated to a Carbon boom and the wing/stab from my Panther and a Chinese orange prop...9 grams ready to cover...I got the idea from those French 'coupes from the sixties...

Short motor tube?
What sort of motor are you gonna use?


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 07, 2017, 09:59:56 PM
1/16" multi-strand...I've been playing with 1/16" rubber in another ship and I like the brute power and this new one is just for experimenting with while I build
another Panther as a back up because the original is getting a little tattered and rebuilt so many times it is becoming an eyesore...P-30 is growing on me and
I like them almost as much as the Cherokee and Hepcat I fly...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on February 07, 2017, 11:09:20 PM
Ooop! I meant length.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 08, 2017, 10:50:54 AM
front end to hook equals 14 1/2" so far...it's coming along nicely and built the stab and fin this morning and will make up a kit of parts some time today or tomorrow
...pics later when I get things all covered...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on February 10, 2017, 12:23:02 AM
Motor will be 15" or so? Or will you run a longer one maybe braided?
I'm interested in hearing how the prop handles the extra torque if you go with the short motor.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 10, 2017, 08:59:17 AM
Yes I try to braid all my motors and depending on the total length of rubber at 9.5 grams and the length of the stirrup I use because I might have to make up special ones for the shorter motors...just working on joining the wing panels together now...so far I've kept all it light and the geodetics have kept it rigid and straight...the only problem I've faced is mating the CF boom to the fuselage with a block of balsa and keeping it straight and so a little bit of incidence crept in...we'll see because I've added 3 alternative positions for the wing to go back and forth...I'm pleased so far...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 10, 2017, 06:37:28 PM
So I joined the wing panels together this afternoon and the dihedral came out too shallow....so I cut the panels out at the first geodetic bay each side and cranked in an additional 3/4" which brought the total dihedral up to 3 1/8" each side...the first 2 break dihedral I've made...will try to cover it this weekend...the finished fuselage came out at 13.8 grams...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on February 19, 2017, 01:38:03 PM
I finished the new one last Friday...40.5 grams so I was under what I thought it would be...the up in the boom might be problematic and might have to add nose weight because the wing mount is at the farthest back position but we'll as soon as I can get to test it ...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Bigbandito on June 28, 2018, 05:42:18 PM
Quote
1.4.2. Balancing by the addition of weight to one blade will be allowed.

Does this mean no scraping or sanding to balance? [he asked, afraid of what the answer might be]


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: applehoney on June 28, 2018, 06:57:04 PM
That is so.  Sorry.....


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 28, 2018, 07:20:10 PM
There was some discussion about freewheels earlier on - here is my current approach,  though these photos are on a small scale model.  It's just a tube cross-drilled through a larger tube and sleeved to the shaft diameter with a small length of the smaller diameter tube.  The solder goes in through the front which hits the cross tube and shaft at the same time.  They've never let go on me.  I used to square lash the cross tube directly to the shaft and solder but this is fiddly and can let go sometimes.  This is much better.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on June 28, 2018, 08:48:28 PM
Quote
1.4.2. Balancing by the addition of weight to one blade will be allowed.

Does this mean no scraping or sanding to balance? [he asked, afraid of what the answer might be]


Correct


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on June 28, 2018, 09:50:35 PM
I've been using a Chinese (orange) prop for a couple years unmodified now and don't find a need for any kind of clutch...just the ramp as supplied...BUT I braid my motors which are 12 x 1/16" and each motor fits the peg to hook so it free wheels...yes they are short but the climb is what gets them up to useful air like right now and I like that style of flying...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Tapio Linkosalo on June 28, 2018, 11:39:54 PM
ZK-AUD, that is neat! I have tried many kinds of free wheelers and ended up using just the plastic wedge molded to the props by default. Mostly as all kinds of washers soldered to the prop shaft tend to weaken them (if silver solder) or do not hold (if soft solder). This construction takes the assembly to place where it does not make a weak spot to the shaft (between prop and nose bearing); probably you could even make it threaded attachment!


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Bigbandito on June 29, 2018, 11:18:56 AM
Quote
1.4.2. Balancing by the addition of weight to one blade will be allowed.

Does this mean no scraping or sanding to balance? [he asked, afraid of what the answer might be]

Quote
That is so.  Sorry.....



Correct

So then how do you decide if the imbalance is enough to address and what is the best/easiest/most common way of adding weight?

Thanks for your tolerance of multiple newbie - if not "stupid" - questions.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Red Buzzard on June 29, 2018, 11:23:16 AM
Hey Big,

I use electrician's tape.

RB


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on June 29, 2018, 12:22:39 PM
yep...the tape thingy works for a lot of plastic props...put it on top for further disruption of air flow...I haven't decided yet what it should look like (the tape) and where is the best position..............are we getting too technical about a P-30????...I've tried Ikara props and Peck's but these Chinese ones work well....I tried a thought experiment recently using a 1/16" rolled motor tube mated to a hobby shop hollow 1/8" OD carbon rod for the boom and it worked out very nice. I mated the two with a conical balsa plug. Simple and quick to build and the only tricksy thing to watch out for is the alignment but using cyno, once it's set, move on to other things...I'm still using Benedek 6356b airfoils for the wing and they are a pain sometimes with geodetic construction but I want them stiff for the faster speed going up on prop run...as you can tell, I like traditional construction and tend to shy away from CF....Luddites Rule....


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Bigbandito on June 29, 2018, 12:35:32 PM
Another dumb question: Can I paint the prop? ...and maybe balance it with the paint?

Probably not something you'd do on a "normal" P-30; but I'm building the P-30 Spitfire and orange just ain't gonna work. I don't imagine it'll be too competitive in P-30; but being uncompetitive is not as bad as being disqualified.  ;) ;D


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on June 29, 2018, 01:16:46 PM
Quote
1.4.2. Balancing by the addition of weight to one blade will be allowed.

Does this mean no scraping or sanding to balance? [he asked, afraid of what the answer might be]

Quote
That is so.  Sorry.....



Correct

I use spray paint on the light blade.

So then how do you decide if the imbalance is enough to address and what is the best/easiest/most common way of adding weight?

Thanks for your tolerance of multiple newbie - if not "stupid" - questions.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on June 29, 2018, 01:20:35 PM
I use spray paint on the light blade.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Bigbandito on June 29, 2018, 02:13:47 PM
I use spray paint on the light blade.

I like that answer. Thanks.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on June 29, 2018, 03:27:02 PM
I used floral spray on the last one.
Don't do that. It took at least four nights. The stuff doesn't weigh enough.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: OZPAF on June 29, 2018, 07:34:00 PM
If the balance is not too far off then you could try adding small lengths of clear tape to the back of the blade at the tip.

John


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: skyrocket on June 29, 2018, 09:41:46 PM
I like your idea John...


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: danberry on June 30, 2018, 10:28:07 PM
If the balance is not too far off then you could try adding small lengths of clear tape to the back of the blade at the tip.

John

That would be doomed to peeling off. I would think.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Flyguy on June 30, 2018, 10:48:30 PM
I like to use lead tape, the nice part about that is that you can use a very small piece.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: OZPAF on July 01, 2018, 04:14:02 AM
Quote
That would be doomed to peeling off. I would think.

It actually hangs on quite well. I can't vouch for it if the prop gets very wet however. I first saw this used on RC open F5E electric props. They do a few more revs than rubber :) I have also used them on RC sports electric props a P30 prop, and RC helicopter blades. 

John


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: ILM Tarheel on July 01, 2018, 09:46:19 AM
I sometimes use the lead tape used by golfers to balance golf clubs but I really like "prism" tape. It adds a nice flash to the spinning prop. I also use it on fishing lures, which get very wet, and it does not come off.

Jimmy J


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: flydean1 on July 01, 2018, 10:02:19 AM
Source of prism tape?


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: ILM Tarheel on July 01, 2018, 10:37:39 AM
flydean1, I get mine at Wal-Mart. Usually found in tape displays in the hardware or craft areas of many stores. Also easily found online. Comes in many brands and colors. Prism tape is my description not a particular tape.

Jimmy J


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: frash on July 01, 2018, 11:31:36 AM
Thanks for alerting us, or at least me, to the reflective Prism tape. I have used the golfers' lead tape for a long time.

Fred Rash


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: calgoddard on July 07, 2018, 07:51:02 PM
I use clear Scotch brand "Decorate & Repair Tape" to balance my larger plastic props, like P-30 props.  You can use it on grey, red or yellow props, or any other color props without detracting from aesthetics, which is less important on sport models, but more important on FAC Rubber Scale models. This type of adhesive tape is considerably heavier than the clear Scotch brand adhesive tape used for gift wrapping, etc. The latter is not heavy enough.

I have never had any problems with the Scotch Decorate & Repair tape coming off of a prop.

I only put the tape on the rear side of one blade, near the tip. I was told that this interferes less with the performance of the prop than if you put the tape on the forward side of the blade.  I am not sure the front or rear location of the tape makes any significant difference in the performance of the prop. I think the positive effect of having the prop dynamically balanced outweighs any negative effect of the minute additional drag caused by the very thin profile of adhesive tape.

If you put on too much tape, pull off the strip and shorten the same. If you put on too little, add a small strip of tape. This is a trial and error process.

Avoid overlapping strips of tape on the prop as this will unecesarily increase drag.

P-30 rules do not allow scraping of the plastic prop blades.  You may prefer to scrape the heavier blade of the plastic prop to avoid adding weight to your model if the rules of the pertinent class permit the same.
   


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: TRuss on July 18, 2018, 01:18:04 AM
I used regular scotch tape.  I just put it on the backside, mainly so that it wouldn't show and as close to the tip as possible to reduce the amount of tape needed.  I would have used Blenderm if I had some. 


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: riversidedan on November 22, 2018, 12:42:16 AM
Yes I try to braid all my motors and depending on the total length of rubber at 9.5 grams and the length of the stirrup I use because I might have to make up special ones for the shorter motors...just working on joining the wing panels together now...so far I've kept all it light and the geodetics have kept it rigid and straight...the only problem I've faced is mating the CF boom to the fuselage with a block of balsa and keeping it straight and so a little bit of incidence crept in...we'll see because I've added 3 alternative positions for the wing to go back and forth...I'm pleased so far...

when you say boom are you referring to carbon heli booms for blast tubes??? Ive had that thought for long time but wasn't sure if anyone had the same idea


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Crabby on December 17, 2018, 04:28:22 PM
There was some discussion about freewheels earlier on - here is my current approach,  though these photos are on a small scale model.  It's just a tube cross-drilled through a larger tube and sleeved to the shaft diameter with a small length of the smaller diameter tube.  The solder goes in through the front which hits the cross tube and shaft at the same time.  They've never let go on me.  I used to square lash the cross tube directly to the shaft and solder but this is fiddly and can let go sometimes.  This is much better.

Hi ZK, can you give me a explanation on how you would do a prop change?  I am lost on that move!


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: applehoney on December 17, 2018, 06:26:51 PM
Now that's an interesting question !    WHY would you want to do a prop change on a P30?  In all the years I've flown this class I've never experienced a need for such.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: flydean1 on December 17, 2018, 11:08:08 PM
You don't crash.  Some of the rest of us do.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: applehoney on December 18, 2018, 09:55:53 AM
Well now, a plastic P30 prop is tougher than an equivalent diameter thin balsa one so unlikely to be damaged in an unplanned 'arrival' ...  and using 'roll out' nose blocks I haven't broken a wooden prop in years ;    other than once fumbling a launch and dorking a Senator at full torque   :'(


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Crabby on December 18, 2018, 11:36:55 AM
I was thinking about the unlikelihood of having to change a prop in the field because its inefficiency to drive the plane, I am not a P-30 guy, my choice of plane for my first P-30 is the Spitfire version...that should tell you enough! Scale guys go through a lot of prop changes. But if you are saying a 9.5 plastic prop is gonna push this thing through the air, enough said. I am not worried about breaking it, that's really not likely!


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: DerekMc on December 18, 2018, 12:29:38 PM
In many years of P30 flying I've broken one prop.  A friend left his model box open on a hot Lost Hills day and his p30 prop softened in the heat and added a noticeable amount of pitch!  Actually it was full on bent.  I don't leave them in the hot sun after seeing that :)


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: edwinzea on June 26, 2020, 02:52:01 AM
Hey Guys

I am plannig to build my forst P30, I am gathering materials but I cannot find much on Propellers (I am  glider guy :P)

I was wondering  what kind of propeller do I need? and could someon point me to a seller/shop in Europe where to get propellers for P30?

Thanks in advance and Happy flights

EZ


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: PeeTee on June 26, 2020, 03:14:55 AM
I have found the Chinese orange props to be very good. I used to buy them from Banggood, and the postage isn't much.

Peter


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Tapio Linkosalo on June 26, 2020, 03:26:33 AM
I have found the Chinese orange props to be very good. I used to buy them from Banggood, and the postage isn't much.

They are indeed. More recently I bought from some source (cannot remember which, in China anyway. Could have been HobbyKing) grey props that are almost similar, except that the trailing edge tip corner is rounded. But I suspect they come from the same mold anyway.


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Bredehoft on June 26, 2020, 07:20:50 AM
...grey props that are almost similar, except that the trailing edge tip corner is rounded. But I suspect they come from the same mold anyway.

To solve the mystery of the Orange/Gray Chinese props:  Orv Olm asked me years ago where I got the orange props (with the pointy tips) as he wanted to use them in his Gizmo Geezer Prop Assemblies.  I told him who I dealt with.  He had them change the color to gray and round the tip.  They are from the same source.

--george


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: edwinzea on June 27, 2020, 02:37:56 AM
Hey Guys thank you for the replys. I found a shop in the UK with nice plastic propellers

@PeeTee do you have the link or the name you used on Banggood? I cannot find any propellers for freeflight

Regards

EZ 8)


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: PeeTee on June 27, 2020, 04:57:50 PM
Hello EZ

Banggood is a HongKong supplier of just about everything from clothes to R/C parts. I had a look a little while ago but there is such a selection of parts for model aircraft that I gave up!
You'll find the address on all the search engines.
Peter


Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: gman on June 28, 2020, 02:00:05 AM
I can't remember where I bought my "Chinese Orange P30 props" from but these are the same

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5Pcs-DIY-Quadcopter-Plastic-Propellers-Prop-9-Inch-for-RC-Airplane/133263361820?hash=item1f071d871c:g:ECcAAOSwrk5e0HZ1&redirect=mobile

€3 for five of them post free, you can't loose...

Gavin



Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: Tapio Linkosalo on June 28, 2020, 02:41:28 AM
They might be different, as at least Volare lists the props in 9", 9 1/2" and 10" sizes. I browsed the net a bit and seems that the availability of 9 1/2 in props is a bit low. So maybe go to Volare and buy from there?

https://volareproducts.com/blog/?product=12-chinese-prop




Title: Re: P-30 props
Post by: gman on June 28, 2020, 04:35:38 AM
Sorry, my mistake, I meant to search 9.5". Try these:-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5pcs-Orange-Plastic-9-5-17mm-Hub-Thick-RC-Airplane-Propellers-Vanes/362791382206?hash=item54780d2cbe:g:7eoAAOSw7RJekcGP&redirect=mobile

I've just ordered two of the gray (sic) ones from Hong Kong, so they are out there.

Gavin