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Indoor Free Flight Forum => Peanut Scale => Topic started by: ZK-AUD on October 09, 2017, 07:34:48 PM



Title: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on October 09, 2017, 07:34:48 PM
Hi everyone,

This goes out especially to our American and Canadian friends:  I have learned that the sole remaining example this ideal potentially Lacey-beating 1928 aircraft actually still exists and is in un-restored storage at the Mid Atlantic Air Museum in Reading PA awaiting an 80hp Anzani 6 cyl..

I had a response from them this morning in which they have described its colour scheme however no photos - plenty of B/W pictures on the internet and a couple of colourised shots but nothing in actual colour.

I was wondering whether anyone has been to the museum and managed to get a colour shot of it they would care to post?

Many thanks for any help

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on October 10, 2017, 12:56:14 PM
Might just refresh this request here in case someone who could help may have missed it

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on October 10, 2017, 01:32:32 PM
Hi Mike,

Neither American nor Canadian, you 'll have to settle for Greek...

I confess I missed it...

The Aircoupe happens to be another of my long time favorite aircraft and I have done quite a lot of research on it over the years.

I hope I will manage to make an accurate 3-view drawing of it some time. So far I have built 2 peanuts and a pistachio based on Walt's plan, plus a 1/20 scale micro radio control, based on own provisional drawings.

Many years ago I too contacted the Museum. I had the good fortune to receive a rather tiny sample of the original covering. It is yellow. (yes another YHWM...)

I do not have it with me, so that I can give you a possible comparison.

Here is a video of my model one of its early flights back in 2012 (starts at 2:21, but the rest is interesting too  ;D)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-YRGVj9po

The model is still well and flying, I am thinking of taking it with me To Nijmegen in a month. It can fly free flight, if I trim it for left circles and leave the transmitter on the floor  ;D. More than 10 circles...

George


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on October 10, 2017, 02:04:06 PM
Thanks for that George.  Greek is fine with me thanks!!  I knew I couldn't be the only one afflicted with this aeroplane!  If at some point you were able to get a photo of the fabric sample if it is still in our possession or describe it from memory that would be most appreciated.  Also I see that you were able to determine the logo on the tail,  which I have not so far ...

I'm confident that this could be a Lacey beating peanut.  I built one a while back covered in condenser paper but not detailed or painted.  It was 4g and flew well.

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on October 31, 2017, 01:22:32 PM
Hi Mike,

A long german holiday meant that it was possible for me to come home for a few days...

The color sample is described by the Museum as "Army-Navy Yellow".

I have taken a picture of it, as true as I could, I hope the description helps a bit too. I tried to find my RAL color chart, to give an estimated RAL equivalent, could not locate it...

Here is a pic of the logo too... Also of the side lettering, both copied from the sales brochure.

By some sources it is supported that there were two different airplanes, the Aircoupe (enclosed version) and the Airsport (open version). This is what appears in the original sales brochure as well. but the photos there are heavily touched up.

In my opinion it was the one and same airplane, especially since the name Aircoupe appears in both the open and closed version.

Hope this helps...

BTW, you have made me thinking, it is about time I start it too, in the near future...

George


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on October 31, 2017, 01:28:57 PM
And here is a real challenge...

If only I could find a better copy of this newspaper photograph, sent to me years ago in this rather poor quality...

I have no idea of the newspapaer name or exact date... My guess is 1927-1928. Any help from out there ?

George



Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on October 31, 2017, 02:06:17 PM
George you are an absolute star!  Thank you so much for that.  I promise a peanut worthy of your assistance in due course.

Cheers, Mike


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on December 31, 2017, 09:57:14 AM
As just posted in Dan's Farman build thread, here is some info on the engine.

A 6 cyl. Anzani, but of a later date that that of the Carte Postale. Actually an american built engine, the Anzani-Brownback, with 80 h.p.

The attached images were sent to me by the Smithsonian NASM, always very helpful with weird research requests...

See also:
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/anzani-brownback-10-105-x-140-2-row-radial-10-engine

https://books.google.gr/books?id=Z8PaTOr-jxYC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=anzani+brownback&source=bl&ots=9FBqITpnmF&sig=92B4cWugHcN0N5bMjtInjr9qjkA&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ5e-ovrTYAhVCLVAKHQnQDvUQ6AEIXzAL#v=onepage&q=anzani%20brownback&f=false


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on December 31, 2017, 09:57:43 AM
...


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on December 31, 2017, 10:02:14 AM
From Popular Aviation magazine, just found and saved...


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on December 31, 2017, 10:06:53 AM
Also of interest maybe...

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?71177-Six-Cylinder-radial-aero-engines

Too much info for a peanut maybe, but better to have and choose, than not to have at all...

George


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: danmellor on December 31, 2017, 11:14:23 AM
Good stuff, George!

Cheers and Happy New Year.

Dan.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on December 31, 2017, 11:20:41 AM
Thanks George  :)

I'm glad the Anzani thing came up in Dan's thread. I had picked out what I thought were the best shots from the net for my drawings, but none of them were particularly in profile.
I've been caught out by the foreshortening and had particularly underestimated the stagger of the cylinders (also in part by other three views not showing much stagger)


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 21, 2018, 12:08:04 PM
Started the build proper on this over the weekend after a week of making wing ribs.  Also got the tail feathers built


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 29, 2018, 09:17:03 PM
Latest updates


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 29, 2018, 11:07:15 PM
meant to add some commentary but ran out of time earlier.  I have departed from the Mooney plan a fair bit structurally.  split rib wing construction and after discussions with a valued modelling colleague I have built the fuselage in 1/32 square rather than 1/20.  The original plan doesn't get tip and fin outlines quite right so I have made them in accordance with the 3 view I have.  Also the nose side panels are clearly flat in the photos and not curved as per the plan.  The Anzani is fully exposed and not cowled.

weight-wise we are at 1.5g for total basic bones so far


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: danmellor on January 30, 2018, 03:28:31 AM
Very, very nice!

Dan.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: Rudder flutter on January 30, 2018, 03:45:50 AM
meant to add some commentary but ran out of time earlier.  I have departed from the Mooney plan a fair bit structurally.  split rib wing construction and after discussions with a valued modelling colleague I have built the fuselage in 1/32 square rather than 1/20.  The original plan doesn't get tip and fin outlines quite right so I have made them in accordance with the 3 view I have.  Also the nose side panels are clearly flat in the photos and not curved as per the plan.  The Anzani is fully exposed and not cowled.

weight-wise we are at 1.5g for total basic bones so far


Thats really Beautifully built. 'Hats off' for using 1/32" sq. too! I like the way you seem to have manipulated a little dihedral into the wing without making it stand out. (I seem to remember the original was flat)?


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 30, 2018, 04:31:30 AM
Thanks for those comments.  Richard the dihedral is actually scale which is just one more attraction of this aircraft.   Don't know why we don't see more of them.   Laceys watch out here we come!!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 30, 2018, 12:02:54 PM
More progress last night - Sheeted in the top decking and put some stringers in under the nose to support the sheeting there.  Using 12 thou Micro-X I have lying around - good for keeping the weight down


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: strat-o on January 30, 2018, 02:26:56 PM
It's interesting how this plane compares to the Farman Carte Postale.  The Farman was built three years before and used the same engine.  The Farman had a lower aspect ratio wing but both planes were pretty low aspect ratio.  I suspect the Ercoupe design was influenced by the Carte Postale.

Marlin


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on January 30, 2018, 04:30:36 PM
Well, what to do now ? Speak or keep quiet ?

Since it is still possible to change things without too much fuss, I might as well speak...

Beautiful and light structure, first of all. A joy to watch evolve.

There are however some errors, as there were in Walt Mooney's plan.

Side and bottom nose panels are all flat, no curvature.
Also, the top rear decking aft the cockpit is not a triangle, as viewed from the front, but rather a curved (elliptic) shape.

It is your decision now, Mike...

Yes, there was plenty of scale dihedral in this one...
http://www.earlyaviators.com/celias.htm

Finally, some interesting and unusual pictures, of the Aircoupe in a rather bard state, probably in the 1950s...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154994086127731&set=p.10154994086127731&type=3&theater&ifg=1
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154994090037731&set=p.10154994090037731&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Best regards,

George


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 30, 2018, 04:35:34 PM
Always speak up George!  Actually I noted both of those things last night when I was studying the photos (after I had built it of course!) but it's a happy problem as sheeting the nose will be lighter and easier to build!  Hopefully I can determine sufficient detail to fix the rear deck shape (but I will)

Many thanks


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 30, 2018, 04:42:40 PM
George those are amazing images  Thank you so much!!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on January 30, 2018, 05:31:49 PM
Mike, another side view picture. Open cockpit, yet Aircoupe on the fuselage. In my opinion there never was an "Airsport". Existing pictures with Airsport on the side show serious signs of retouching (ancient photoshop  ;D)

Compare this with the Airsport picture in earlyaviators.com. Clearly the same picture, only this is the original...
The logo on the door does look cooler though, I agree...

George


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on January 30, 2018, 05:40:46 PM
Yes you're right - In the first dilapidated picture it looks like the Aircoupe logo has been souvenired by someone.  Also looks as though that rear fairing was originally black.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 07, 2018, 11:53:38 AM
Latest updates - a bit of paper and paint - rear fairing revised as per George's comment


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 08, 2018, 11:55:09 AM
Made some transfers last night.  These came out well


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: PB_guy on February 08, 2018, 01:37:21 PM
Absolutely gorgeous! Your finishing is something to try to emulate. Thumbs up.
ian


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 11, 2018, 11:50:12 AM
Crankcase for the Anzani 6 cylinder radial.  Also stripped part of the fuselage and re-covered it to deal with the bit of starved horse visible in the earlier photos, that I couldn't live with!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: g_kandylakis on February 12, 2018, 09:40:07 AM
Hi Mike,

Looks great so far. Amazing working with 1/32 sticks and getting this result after covering.

It will be very light for sure. What is your target weight and flight duration?
I remember Walt wanted a 1-minute flyer but only got 56 seconds...you will break that for sure..

George


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 12, 2018, 11:51:24 AM
Thanks George.  I'm aiming for around 5g with this one and hoping for something that can beat the run of the mill Laceys, Fikes and other barn door boxes we seem to get around here.  1m30 would be something to aim for but 1m15 would do the trick.  The prop is the key and that's not an area I have a lot of experience with in Peanuts...


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 12, 2018, 01:45:07 PM
I meant to take a picture of the actual article last night but forgot.  Here is a rough sketch of the sanding jig I made to deal with the tailplane.  The TP is 1/32 square structure with a thin laminated outline - hard to sand back without wrecking it or getting hollows in the central structure - not with my patent sanding jig however!

I apologise if everyone else already does this but I had the lightbulb moment last night - all you do is cut out the exact shape of your tailplane in a piece of sheet the same thickness (or the intended final thickness) and insert your flimsy structure for sanding purposes.  Works perfectly - guaranteed results!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 18, 2018, 11:51:35 AM
A few more progress shots.  Here you see it just sitting together with the wing propped up on a glass.  This won't be as light as I had imagined but its not too bad - as you see it here it's 4.6g,  with wing struts, rudder, dummy engine and prop assembly still to go.  The struts and rudder will weigh next to nothing so I'm guessing maybe 7g all up - similar to my Sommer Monoplane but with more wing by far. The wheels are worth a mention.  The basic wheel / tyre is turned from blue foam and the domed wheel covers are vac-formed in 5 thou styrene.  The hubs are short lengths of 1mm styrene rod, centre drilled to take the 0.22mm guitar string wire axle. This is a great material to work with for lightweight wheel hubs and they run beautifully and true.   Apart from the prop shaft the 2 tiny axle stubs are the only wire in this model.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: Glenn (gravitywell) Reach on February 18, 2018, 01:06:37 PM
What a little cutey she is!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 22, 2018, 11:54:28 AM
A bit more progress - just the engine and prop assembly and probably a few more little details to go


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 22, 2018, 11:59:17 AM
And another one.  It actually has some rigging that you may not see in the pictures - there are drag wires from the upper U/C (olio) attachment back to the rear wing strut / wing joint.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: danmellor on February 23, 2018, 05:26:26 AM
Superb!

Dan.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on February 23, 2018, 05:42:35 AM
As ever, beautiful work  :)


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on February 25, 2018, 12:08:44 PM
Engine time!  here are the cylinders - first up is a detail shot of the construction - I used my bendy straw dodge again - admittedly it doesn't quite have the correct profile but in this scale it's not noticeable and the more correct head section takes the eye away from that - (did I mention flimflam flummox once before!)  each section of straw is filled with soft balsa which keeps it all straight and  gives a good surface for gluing them onto the eventual crankcase.  To make the balsa core I simply sharpened a brass tube the correct i.d. and rotated it end-grain into some really soft light balsa and then cut out the resulting dowel.  The head fins and valve gear, tie rods and inlet manifolds are all fabricated from styrene sheet  and rod.  Sprayed matt black and over-brushed with pencil dust they look OK I think.

Also I attach a picture of the prop I have prepared - this started life as a Tern Aero prop but has been shaved to within an inch of its life and is now 0.6g,  down from the original nearly 3g.  I plan to try it at the original 6" diameter to see what happens


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: PietenpolAC on February 25, 2018, 01:11:18 PM
That's going to be one nice engine. But it has to be to finish of this superb build.  :o

Bruce


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: billdennis747 on February 25, 2018, 02:17:20 PM
they look OK I think.
Yes, they do


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on March 04, 2018, 12:01:27 PM
Just the wing tank and exhaust system to go.  the prop is just held on with a bent pin for now for the purposes of the photo but I'll do something better in due course.  Current weight is 6.5g


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: tross on March 04, 2018, 07:48:22 PM
And so this model is crazy cool. :)
You have set the bar really high with this one Mike.

Tony


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on March 13, 2018, 12:51:07 PM
Nearly finished now - a few tiny details I may still feel like putting on such as control horns and wires but the major work is done.  The exhaust system is made from a batch of grass stems I dried out earlier this summer and the fuel line is 0.5mm styrene rod painted copper.  This is pure conjecture but I figure the juice had to get from the wing tank to the motor somehow!  Also need to bend up a prop hook and make a small thrustline adjuster,  but otherwise we're ready to go.


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: ZK-AUD on March 13, 2018, 12:54:45 PM
Oh, and also a decal for the tail - there was a round Elias logo that sits above the registration number. 


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: Pete Fardell on March 13, 2018, 12:55:22 PM
That's just lovely, and gloriously quirky!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: _shadow_ on March 13, 2018, 08:47:26 PM
It's gorgeous!


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: THB on April 15, 2018, 05:56:27 AM
Really excited to see this build - thank you - a real favourite - I think maybe my first 60sec plus indoor peanut (1980s). Mine very crude compared to yours. Note highly scale like flight style...


Title: Re: Elias Aircoupe information request
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on April 15, 2018, 01:09:24 PM
HOLY COW Mike !    :o  :o  I just read and studied your whole build thread.   Everything is so perfect and sharp and clear and crisp.  Just tremendous, and what an Anzani engine.  Beautiful model of that Early Aircraft (my favourites), the Elias AIRCOUPE Buffalo.  Breathtaking and awe-inspiring ... beautiful color scheme and matching color of that eye-catching prop!   Thanks for the great build thread!

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard