Hip Pocket Builders' Forum

Indoor Free Flight Forum => F1D, F1M, F1L => Topic started by: Skymon on April 14, 2018, 07:44:45 AM



Title: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on April 14, 2018, 07:44:45 AM
OK here it is, a documented journey through an F1D build.
This is a little different to the usual 'how to' threads.
I have no previous experience building one of these planes, so I've not got anything to 'teach'.
You can watch me struggle through the buid, learn new processes, make mistakes, get stuck, try again, etc.
Hopefully the thread will prove to be an inspiration to anyone else who feels like giving these planes a go.


So initial steps.
I downloaded a bunch of plans, there are a lot out there. INAV, F1D blog and HPA are good places to look.
I did a big table of the dimensions of the plane and the wood and tried to work out if there was a pattern or a formula.
There isn't really.

Wings are constrained by the max dimensions and fuselages tend to be about 750mm long.

In the end I decided to follow a published plan from Ivan Treger.
It has a world record and it looks nice and clean in it's lines.

I looked up the wood and ordered it from Nick Aikman.
Then I set about working out what other parts I need:

Here's the initial steps in my kitchen while I cook the weekend breakfast.

Pic 1 is the plans in A3 and A4 and the wood. I listed the weird stuff like boron, carbon and tungsten wire.
Pic 2 shows me testing the boom wood in a pretty rudimentary manner.
Pic 3 shows the Motorstick wood - I had two pieces that are almost exactly identical, very nice.
then the plan itself.





Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on April 14, 2018, 05:04:33 PM
Hi Skymon !  You are INSPIRING ME ...      I am looking forward to following your first F1d build, as I have never built one - but I have seen the flights and they are pretty hypnotizing !     :o  :o     And thank you for this invitation "You can watch me struggle through the buid, learn new processes, make mistakes, get stuck, try again, etc."   :D  LOL  - I will do just that.   Thank you again,  I will be following this one.   Thanks for posting everything in your build.  It will be great to follow.   :)

LASTWOODSMAN


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: ffadict on April 17, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
Dito on the inspiration Skymon. I am slowly working my way through the mini-quark after seeing your build.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on April 25, 2018, 06:35:29 AM
OK - distinct lack of progress.
Mainly based on the fact that my partner organised a secret 50th Birthday trip to Madrid for a week.
That's over now and this is my progress...


Balsa blocks for props have arrived!

Time to start carving..

I'm using a neat spread sheet devised by Bob Bailey to create the points needed to carve the blocks.

S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Crossup on April 25, 2018, 10:59:09 PM
Could you point us at the spreadsheet?


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: calgoddard on April 25, 2018, 11:42:56 PM
Skymon -

Yuan Kang Lee, a world F1D champion, has created and published an excellent step-by-step guide for building an F1D. I think it is geared toward a novice in F1D.

I don't have the link handy but someone else will probably post the same.

You couldn't find a better resource than Kang's guide. If you are lucky, he will be following your build.

Good luck with your build. F1D is the pinnacle of indoor free flight. These models are truly elegant in flight. 


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on April 26, 2018, 02:50:21 AM
Prop spread sheet is here:
http://indoorduration-gbr.co.uk/#/make-propellers/4591896868 (http://indoorduration-gbr.co.uk/#/make-propellers/4591896868)


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: THB on April 26, 2018, 06:23:11 AM
Hi Skymon - all the best with your build. In 2010 I started a similar first-timer build and ended up going to World Champs in 2012, 2014 & 2018. Look forward to hearing about your journey. cheers
Tim


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Rossclements on April 26, 2018, 07:59:28 AM
https://thef1dblog.wordpress.com/2015/06/14/f1d-plan-construction-information/
That's the link to all the F1D building stuff, check out the rest of the site for some tips on F1D basics too.

Ross


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on April 26, 2018, 10:12:40 AM
I have only just started these, but they should also help:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkPRArS87a-qaOlUtGpnNGQ/

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: piecost on April 26, 2018, 12:11:39 PM
Mike,

I watched some of your videos last night. Along with Joshua's videos and Kang's instructions; there are some fantastic resources online. Thanks guys.

I look forward to this build


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on April 26, 2018, 01:30:15 PM
Any suggestions for future topics?
Will take any/all feedback.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on April 27, 2018, 07:49:50 AM
Rigging with invisible wire!
making square things round
applying boron to things that are not straight
rolling and gluing booms
Boom and stick joint areas
prop shaft rubber hook forms


just for starters:)


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on April 27, 2018, 10:37:21 AM
Thanks!


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: flydean1 on April 27, 2018, 01:39:46 PM
Also Mike, you seem to be plugged in to rare material sources.

 I'm looking for that material which has infinite strength and negligible weight. 

I think it comes from an obscure district in the Far Eastern country of Shangri La and is called unobtainium.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on April 27, 2018, 03:15:27 PM
 ;D


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on April 28, 2018, 07:56:05 AM
rolling and gluing booms
just for starters:)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkPRArS87a-qaOlUtGpnNGQ/
Episodes 9, 10 and 12 cover this, although not explicitly boom seam gluing.
Motorstick and stub seam gluing techniques are the same as a tailboom, so didn't think it really necessary for a tailboom video.

Mike


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on May 11, 2018, 03:35:37 AM
OK, so it's been ages since I started this thread. 50th Birthday activities have derailed my progress somewhat.
But, I am now back in the game!

My boom form arrived today, from Free flight supplies, a chuck glider tapered fuse section.
I also have been kindly donated some boron by a fellow local flier, which was very much appreciated.

So now I have a complete F1D, just in basic kit form.

I will be doing some building over the weekend and hope to post progress on Monday.
Thanks for watching:)

Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Dave Jackson on May 14, 2018, 06:37:33 AM
Hi Si

I too am encouraged by your F1D build and am interested in how things proceed.


Also I am embarking on the same journey - building my first F1D. You are a little ahead - I am still assembling the tools and materials required.

I look forward to your progress

Cheers
Dave



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: THB on May 22, 2018, 11:07:04 PM
Hi Dave - if you are building an F1D in NZ your probably know Bill and Kay Long? they competed at West Baden as the first NZ team.
If not, I can put you in touch
cheers
Tim


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Dave Jackson on May 24, 2018, 03:10:37 AM
Hi Tim

That is a great photo of Kaye and Bill.

I know both of them as I used to fly with then in Christchurch.
I am now in Whangarei but keep in contact with them.

If all goes to plan I hope to join them at the next world champs.

Dave


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: THB on June 03, 2018, 06:42:29 AM
Good to hear from you Dave - there's a heap more pix here:
https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/O3CAO5PSay1JQ5bHYHfoomu6bOwXpDclqV8haMe4LKB
These pics were taken by an amateur photographer called Charles Cantrell (thanks Charles!)
Wish you all the best with your F1D ambitions - it's a really nice group of people who are very free with sharing info
cheers
THB


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 07, 2018, 04:44:47 AM
Some progress has been made!
I’ve not been at the workbench much lately.
We’ve had some very strange weather conditions in the UK recently – it’s been sunny.
This has meant I’ve been out in the back yard and camping in the forest.

This week saw me attend my regular monthly indoor flying session and that visit necessitated a bit of work. I needed a new prop for the LPP.

That meant I had to get my tools out. The session was a great success and fired me up to get back on the F1D trail.

I spent last night making up motor stick and boom blanks.

I used the tried and tested method of wrapping up the blank in layers of tissue around a suitable former. The former I used for the motor stick was an arrow shaft and for the boom I used a tapered glider boom that I got from Free Flight Supplies.

Because I had a few issues last time with cutting the wood to shape after rolling, I opted to cut the blanks to size prior to wrapping this time.

I calculated the width required using the old Pi d formula, not forgetting to add my wood thickness to the d. I used what looks to be pretty standard sizes for the wood. The stick used 35 thou C grain and the boom 25 thou C grain. Both bits of wood were low 4lb density.

Standard procedure for the forming. Soak the sheet in hot water. Wet the tissue and do half a wrap of the former. Add the wood in, making sure it was parallel. Wrap up the wood in the tissue. Roll a few times to tighten up the wrap. Hold it all together with some tape. Bake it.

Both stick and boom are now drying off and the sticking starts tonight.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 08, 2018, 03:02:55 AM
Sticking the motor tube together.
It's tight on the mandrel, I should add 0.25mm to the width for the next one.
Nothing particularly out of the ordinary or tricky so far, just keep things neat and tidy and take time.

I found adding all of the extra parts to the tube to be the tricky part of the F1R.

That's coming up next, so I will move slowly and make sure I jig everything.

S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Olbill on June 08, 2018, 10:43:36 AM

I calculated the width required using the old Pi d formula, not forgetting to add my wood thickness to the d. I used what looks to be pretty standard sizes for the wood. The stick used 35 thou C grain and the boom 25 thou C grain. Both bits of wood were low 4lb density.


What units are you using? I can't make these sizes work in either mm or inches.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on June 08, 2018, 10:45:43 AM

I calculated the width required using the old Pi d formula, not forgetting to add my wood thickness to the d. I used what looks to be pretty standard sizes for the wood. The stick used 35 thou C grain and the boom 25 thou C grain. Both bits of wood were low 4lb density.


What units are you using? I can't make these sizes work in either mm or inches.

F1D should be roughly 0.013" for fuse and 0.009" for tailboom.
0.035" is what I use for rolled P-30 fuselages. :)

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Rossclements on June 08, 2018, 05:47:22 PM
.35 mm works out to something like 0.039" and .25mm works out to .0095 or so.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 11, 2018, 03:28:21 AM
My bad, mixing up units...
I struggle with thou's and bits of inches :)

"35 thou" was a complete mess up!  should be 0.35mm or 0.014 of an inch
Same with "25 thou". Should be 0.25mm or 0.010 of an inch.
As Mike says, these are pretty standard sizes for F1D.
I'm certainly not re-inventing the wheel here, if there's a commonality across plans, then that's 'my' choice too.

Motor stick is now completely glued and I am working on the boom.

I had major issues with adding all the parts to the motor stick for my F1R. I got everything on the eventually, but nothing aligns as well as I'd like.
That will be my first area of improvement from my normal process of 'get sucked in to just whacking parts together'.
I am constructing some sort of jig to mark and hold all the sticking out bits to the MS.
Hopefully this will give me better results than last time.

S



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Maxout on June 11, 2018, 10:23:15 AM
F1D should be roughly 0.013" for fuse and 0.009" for tailboom.
0.035" is what I use for rolled P-30 fuselages. :)

I moved up to .016" on motorsticks several years ago. This eliminates the need for boron on motorsticks and it eliminates motorstick failures. You can shorten the motorstick up so that spacers are not needed (about 6.75" long) and then use .010" for the stub boom.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 11, 2018, 10:52:28 AM
Hey, give me chance :)

I'm going to go with what's seen as the standard way for my first attempt. ;D
If I don't build to an established baseline I'll never know if I can build ok.

I'm itching to change everything, but I need to know if I can do what I'm told first.

Thanks for the info though, I'm logging it all.

Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on June 11, 2018, 12:28:39 PM
And mine are typically 0.014", roughly 4.2#, wrapped around a 0.266" mandrel.
The mandrel is a commonly available drill rod in the US.

This seems a good compromise to weight and strength, without the crazy amounts of twist I saw earlier that made my models unflyable above 0.35 in-oz of torque.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 11, 2018, 05:21:02 PM
in-oz... that hurts!
I like my SI units..

Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 12, 2018, 03:30:24 AM
The basic sticka dn boom are now complete.
What do I do next?

Add boron, the wingposts, the hook or the bearing?

I am making up another pair of boom and stick now the formers are free.



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 12, 2018, 03:37:25 AM
F1D should be roughly 0.013" for fuse and 0.009" for tailboom.
0.035" is what I use for rolled P-30 fuselages. :)

I moved up to .016" on motorsticks several years ago. This eliminates the need for boron on motorsticks and it eliminates motorstick failures. You can shorten the motorstick up so that spacers are not needed (about 6.75" long) and then use .010" for the stub boom.

Josh
I had a look at your plans and the prospect of using less boron on a plane is very interesting to me..
On all the plans of yours I have, I can see use of a 9" (230mm) motor stick hook length, have you changed to shorter lengths since then?
Have you got a plan you can share of that design?
I noticed you used a boron outline on your fin too, what's the thinking there?

Best regards
Si



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 12, 2018, 06:48:44 AM
Mr Hebb has reminded me that the boron application needs the mandrel up the middle...
That makes boron application task number 1...

I'm nervous ;)


Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Rossclements on June 12, 2018, 09:40:38 AM
Boron is actually very easy to work with. Just use it with a light colored background so you can see it. I'm a big fan of  tensioning the boron when I put it on the motor stick,  seems to keep the boron straighter and makes it less prone to popping up.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on June 12, 2018, 09:47:10 AM
I'm nervous ;)


Si

Don't be nervous. Just be careful.

I work with fiberglass all the time. I am far more afraid of hurting myself with it than with boron.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 12, 2018, 03:45:23 PM
First bit is on!


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 13, 2018, 06:54:54 AM
A busy night last night entering the realm of boron re-enforcement.
A new process and material for me.

I chose a nice piece of wood to use as a base for my work.
The first thing I learnt was not to use tape to hold the rolled stick/mandrel down.
Tape sticks too much to everything and the resultant force was a point load on just one part of the circumference, possibly leaving a flat spot.
I guess I might need to invest in some low tack tape…

I use a bit of Blu Tack instead of tape and it worked for me.
Just resting the stick on a small valley in the blu tack held it firm enough to work on.

I made up a piece of thread with a nut on the end as a tensioning mass.

I then cleaned the boron with a tissue and acetone.

First task is to anchor one end of the boron. I pre-glued the motorstick with a blob of 50/50 cement. Then held the boron in place while I added another blob on top.
When dry I cut the boron to length. It’s a straight forward snap with some wide bladed tweezers.
Next up time to attach the tensioning mass… I found this really tricky to start with.
I ended up by dipping 10mm of the thread in 50/50 cement and letting it dry. This gives a nice rigid bit of thread to align with the boron end. I hung the boron off the edge of the wood, aligned my thread and then applied an acetone soaked brush. The brush stuck to the thread, capillary action sucked it on. When I tried to withdraw it, it pulled the thread with it. I eventually solved it by coming in from the boron side and gently sliding up the boron.

The mass is attached. Line up the boron along the length of the stick and then hang the mass on the thread over the edge of the table. This holds it all in place while you glue it all down.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 13, 2018, 07:24:11 AM
As I glued the boron to the wood I pressed down on the metal to embed it in the motorstick wood, as advised in some build methods. I was a little heavy handed here and I shattered one end of the boron in to small pieces. These were all contained within the adhesive and it was only apparent when viewed under high magnification that there were breaks. I pulled all of the pieces out of the adhesive with acetone on a brush, they all ended up in my solvent pot. I was using a drill blank to press the boron down, I changed to a wooden dowel after and reduced my pressure… Lesson learnt.

I removed the whole piece of boron as it was now 15mm too short. Taking it off without shattering it in to many pieces was tricky but I managed it.

When the whole piece of boron is stuck from end to end I melted the thread off with some acetone. I then went back and glued the ends again just to make sure they don’t ever poke out.

Then it was on to the boom. Same process here but the boron goes on at 12, 4 and 8 o’clock. I marked the ends and set about sticking it down. I got all three parts done reasonably quickly as I am now an ‘expert’ and already had two pieces completed successfully. Here was another error…

My boom became stuck to the mandrel in a couple of areas. I managed to work it free by gently massaging it and twisting the mandrel slightly but it did open my seam in a couple of small places.
 I now need to go back to the boom and repair, possibly refit the boron again after. Be very careful with wood sticking to the mandrels. It’s happened to me a number of times. If you can work out exactly where the area is you can soak it off, but sometimes it’s just wedged. Keep the mandrel really clean. I have sprayed mine now with mould release just to be sure it doesn’t get stuck again. Keep the mandrel free by moving it a little and often.

Both parts are now finished and curing off. I will build another set up now for spares, hopefully incorporating all the things I learnt above.



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on June 13, 2018, 11:16:30 AM
Somewhat convoluted way of doing this.
Guess I need to cover this as part of the F1D vLog...

Mike


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 13, 2018, 11:27:38 AM
My posts are convoluted and verbose, I'm not trying to put together an instruction manual.
There are some great ones on the web already. That's where I'm getting my info.
It's more of a conversational journey.
I'll be concentrating on the things I did wrong more than the things that just go to plan.

Hopefully detailing my mistakes will prevent a few others making the same ones.


Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on June 13, 2018, 11:30:09 AM
My posts are convoluted and verbose, I'm not trying to put together an instruction manual.
There are some great ones on the web already. That's where I'm getting my info.
It's more of a conversational journey.
I'll be concentrating on the things I did wrong more than the things that just go to plan.

Hopefully detailing my mistakes will prevent a few others making the same ones.


Si

Not intended as a criticism, more a note that there are easier ways to do this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 13, 2018, 03:09:21 PM
It wasn't taken as a criticism.
If you have an easier way then please share ☺
I've got more to do....


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: piecost on June 13, 2018, 03:50:15 PM
Keep posting gentlemen


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Maxout on June 13, 2018, 03:55:40 PM
Josh
I had a look at your plans and the prospect of using less boron on a plane is very interesting to me..
On all the plans of yours I have, I can see use of a 9" (230mm) motor stick hook length, have you changed to shorter lengths since then?
Have you got a plan you can share of that design?
I noticed you used a boron outline on your fin too, what's the thinking there?

I haven't drawn up an F1D since 2015. Have been through three design iterations since then, but none have been good enough, mainly because they're made from recycled parts and my attention has been diverted somewhat. I shortened the motorsticks to get rid of the spacers. I hate spacers.

Boron fins are just a think I like. I don't seem to break them as often. I'm getting away from fins entirely though.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 14, 2018, 05:35:43 AM
Fins seem to persist in F1D and F1L where as F1R and F1M they are a rarity.
Interesting how trends develop.

A fin adds weight in order to provide directional stability.
Tip plates do the same and also add weight but they can improve the efficiency of the tips.
Raised stab tips add a little weight but also increase wing area, if not 'projected' area...

Is it worth a thread on those variants generally?
I'd like to hear the thoughts of the proponents of each...

BR
Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on June 29, 2018, 03:13:45 AM
Some progress has been made. Motor stick has the metal work attached now.
Only one issue - I attached the rear hook at the end of the stick, not where it should be.
I had to soak it off and refit in the correct place.

I have pontificated about wingposts for a week or two now.
Square, round, rectangular balsa with boron or carbon sanded, or carbon wrapped...
The choice is mind boggling.

The plan I have has 1mm carbon tubes on it.

I'm still pondering.

The suns out and I've a busy weekend ahead so there may not be that much progress.
I will post up pictures of where I am a little later.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: ykleetx on June 29, 2018, 10:56:36 AM
Go with a fin. It's much easier to build a good fin and flat stab than a stab with tip plates. Most importantly, you can easily change the fin angle if needed. I use 1-2 degrees.

For wing posts, I suggest wood and boron. square cross section. wing end rounded for the wing tubes. stick end rounded for easier construction.

1mm carbon is not stiff enough if the post is longer than 2".


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: jakepF1D on June 29, 2018, 06:51:44 PM
I will second what Kang said.  Start with balsa and boron wing posts.  I personally hate them, but they're the best place to start.

Also, don't sweat the small stuff on your first F1D.  The best way to learn how to build an F1D is to fly an F1D you've already built.  You'll learn more about your model in 1 day of flying than you will in 3 months of building.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 03, 2018, 06:44:37 AM
I made a small stub to join the boom to the motor stick.
Built up on a little former with dimensions based on the internal wall diameters of the boom and stick minus the wood thickness.
It works, although I would use at least two slits in the tapered end next time as just one seems to give an uneven taper.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 18, 2018, 05:29:36 AM
Work on the motor stick continues. I added the metalwork. For some reason I opted for the torture of a wire nose bearing. I completely forgot I have four Harlan bearings in my box, ordered for exactly such an occasion. By the time I’d remembered I had got this far.
I am an absolute expert at wire pigtail bearings. It can take me as few as fifteen tries to get a good one. I end up encased in a pile of discarded guitar strings, my local music shop must thing I am a thrash metal lead guitar soloist with a very busy gig schedule…
Despite being difficult, I do enjoy a bit of metal bending.
I made up the rear hook and front bearing and got ready to add them to the webbing for insertion in the motor stick.
I used motor stick thickness wood and full strength cement. I have just built an F1R, so I stuck my rear hook in the end of the motor stick and the front bearing in the front. All fixed in pretty solid and neat.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 18, 2018, 05:30:44 AM
It was at this point that I glanced back at the plan to see that the rear hook isn’t at the end, it’s 30mm down it.
Oh.
Lesson learnt again, keep an eye on the plan if you want to know what you should actually be doing.
I soaked the webbing out for the rear hook and cut a slot in the motorstick where it should be.
I built in a little web as part of the webbing and added tissue over the top. I went ornate on the top fixing for the bracing wire, this will probably be trimmed to a hook rather than a loop later. Let’s see what my weight ends up at first.
The front end could possibly have done with the integral web as well, but as this was constructed in one of my build ‘sprints’ where I even forgot to look at the plan, I didn’t do it.
I will add a web at some point, possibly from something a little harder than balsa.
I added a bracing post at the point mentioned on the plan, the plan shows it canted over, so I canted it over.
I’m guessing this means the motor stick will be subject to a little twist under tension. I have no idea what that will do. I’ll build up the spare stick with the bracing post vertical, see if that makes a difference.
I took the boom off of the former and it has a curve to it. I painted a thin line of cement along the boom on the opposite side to the curve to see if that would ‘shrink’ the balsa against the curve and it helped. The curve was about 3mm along the 500mm length and mostly in the last third. Not exactly spaghetti.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 18, 2018, 05:41:12 AM
Next up are the wingposts. I opted for square section as I needed to gather a bit of experience putting boron on to such vital parts.
I’m still not keen on just sticking wire on to wood.
The use of dissimilar materials seems high risk of failure.
Sticking to a curved surface compounds this risk.
I went square. Probably another error, but onwards and hopefully upwards. Making square tubes is gonna be a pain.
Next up – fitting the wingposts so they are upright and square… Jig building required.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 25, 2018, 03:51:20 AM
Wingposts fitted.
I opened a hole in the marked area with a pin, then used a new number 11 scalpel blade to square it off and open it out.
No real issues with fitting these apart from lining them up in all directions and then working through the lower skin without popping the seam or ending up with a volcano effect.
Once fitted and liberally fixed with thinned adhesive I sanded the lower part level.
Maybe this was a mistake, but I like the clean look.
Front post here shows pre-sanding condition.
Next task is to seal the front end off and add a web to the prop shaft bearing wire.
Right now my stick is 2mg underweight according to the plan I'm 'following'.
That'll be used up on the web and cap no doubt.

After capping and webbing I'll add some bracing wire.

Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 26, 2018, 06:19:41 AM
Starting to gather info and materials for making a prop.
Despite my pathological fear of sticking wire to wood, I am going to attempt a boron reinforced outline.
I have a nice doc from Tony Hebb that details the method.

Here are my materials:
A carved prop form made from a balsa block and Bob Baileys neat spread sheet that spins the form axially to reduce wood removal.
Some wood from Nick Aikman for outline and spars.
Some boron kindly donated to me by my friendly local indoor free flighter, Ian.
and a bunch of shapes ruthlessly culled from various plans.

Next steps are tapering the wood.

Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 27, 2018, 06:23:59 AM
The method for making boron re-inforced prop outlines is well documented, I’ll not repeat it all here. What I will do is detail the issues I had and the areas where I went wrong.
First issue was deciding whether to go around the tip with the metal or not. Both have pros and cons.
Wrapping around the tip means one piece of boron and no exposed ends to ping off. But it also means the boron is constantly in tension, meaning it’s more likely to ping off.
I went for two bits in the end, mainly because of the fear of bending boron and the nagging doubt of making a propeller blade featuring a permanently spring loaded construction.

Step one was to measure the outlines and cut them from the wood.
I cut in the appropriate taper as recommended, from 045 to 022. Nice straight edge and new razor blade and I have two sets done.

Now to join them using a scarf joint.
I have a dislike for joining materials, ideally the whole outline will be one piece.
It is quite tricky to make that single piece with this type of taper. Effectively double butting the ends.
This particular scarf joint is also at the point of highest stress at the tightest radius point on the outline.
I was also concerned about the longevity of a joint right at the end where it is most likely to suffer impact.
Only one thing eased my mind somewhat and that as the addition of some Kevlar tow around the end.
This could add a bit of durability to the section.
It’ll also add mass at the longest moment arm available, which will add a tiny bit of flywheel effect that may smooth the rotation somewhat.
hopefully.

I finished off my templates and there was no going back.
I soaked the outlines for ten minutes in hot water, I added my bandaids to the former and I got ready to bend my outlines.
They both snapped in the middle on first contact with the former. The scarf joints both failed.

I went back to the table and tried to understand the failure.
Maybe I was too quick to soak? I decided to rejoin the parts and leave for a day before having another go.
I wondered if I had enough area for my scarf joints, so I recut at a more acute angle and then re-bonded the joints.
I left them over night to set and I will have another go tomorrow.

S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: cvasecuk on July 27, 2018, 06:49:11 AM
The angle for a scarf joint should be at least 1:8, yours is about 1:2!!!!!
Ron


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 27, 2018, 07:37:30 AM
Ron
You're dead right. I don't think I got to 1:8, but I did get flatter on the second go.
I'll keep going and maybe try even longer if this one breaks again.

S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on July 30, 2018, 08:00:08 AM
Here's my prop block ready to be marked up.
Got to soak the form on it over night and then spray mount it down for the addition of ribs to the outline.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on August 02, 2018, 07:56:08 PM
Go with a fin. It's much easier to build a good fin and flat stab than a stab with tip plates. Most importantly, you can easily change the fin angle if needed. I use 1-2 degrees.

For wing posts, I suggest wood and boron. square cross section. wing end rounded for the wing tubes. stick end rounded for easier construction.

1mm carbon is not stiff enough if the post is longer than 2".

1mm wing posts are way large. 0.026" pultruded carbon tube is what I use.

Works great.
I use shorter ones than most for weight savings.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on August 03, 2018, 02:48:21 AM
MIke
Is that sanded down from 1mm, or straight forward 0.7mm tube?
S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: mkirda on August 03, 2018, 07:30:14 AM
Just straight tube I sanded.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: ykleetx on August 03, 2018, 06:40:19 PM
Simon,

I think you're following Ivan's plan from Slanic 2017. That model has 80 mm wing posts. I would not shorten the wing posts. At that length, I would not use the .7mm tube. A number of us have experienced this. For comparison, Ivan uses a 1mm tube, molded himself for weight savings, and substantially stiffer than 0.7 mm.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on August 06, 2018, 02:48:21 AM
My posts are in post 53. They are balsa and boron. I went for the same length.
I read the detail for the 1mm carbon posts and assumed it was something strange, so went for traditional balsa.
The only detail on the posts is HM, which I guess means high modulus.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on October 03, 2018, 05:27:44 AM
At last an update.
I've had a few distractions including the UK Nationals and fitting a kitchen.

My pace has been sedate to say the least!
Prop bones are now built.
I had no major disasters on the way, it's all straight forward, if a little fiddly.
I added an outline form to the prop block and then pinned the outline around it using soft balsa blocks to hold it down.
Then wetted and dried it a couple of times. Added the spar and ribs and then all of the boron around the outline.
I used a tiny length of carbon tow on the outer section instead of Kevlar.
I'm not that happy with the tips, they look a little lumpy, I can see why people use a sharp corner out there, with a join.
It avoids the horrid scarf joint and looks a lot neater. I think that'll be my next plan.
I am going to be covering these this week.
After that I am halting construction of the plane to concentrate on the storage box.
That way I can store anything I make rather than let it hang about the house and get damaged.

Thanks for sticking with me on my plod of a journey :)

Prop spars are different lengths, then need a trim.

S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on November 13, 2018, 04:12:52 AM
I’ve started on the flying surfaces.
Wing is first. I cut the spars to the dimensions detail on the Treger plan.
I used a glass sealed unit that I had lying about to build the centre section on.
The wing was built in the standard way with boron added to the top and bottom of the main spars.

The outer ribs are fixed with white glue to allow me to drop the tips by melting the Duco later.
The plan says to add boron to the outer ribs, so I did.
Tips were soaked in hot water and then hot formed about a tip former.
They were added after the main section corner extensions were trimmed back to about 3mm.

This is what my F1D looks like so far.
I’ve got some covering to do after the stab get built.
I am running out of boron and film. Time to order some more bits…


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on December 04, 2018, 08:22:35 AM
Yes, I am still slowly progressing...

I've made up and covered the stab.
Learnt a bunch of things doing this part.
I will have to make another to employ those lessons.

I am flying tonight, probably F1N, but I hope to get an hour before hand to add the covering to my wing...

Wish me luck, I've already tried once :~(

In other news; I hope to finish my kitchen this weekend and get back to serious hobbying.
If only those Christmas decorations would put themselves up

Best regards
Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 18, 2019, 04:21:03 AM
I made up frames to cover the stab and wing. These are bigger than anything I have ever covered before. The stab covering came out OK, but I really screwed up the wing and had to pull it all back off.
That left a bunch of sticky stuff all over my wing bones. This proved to be a problem when I retrieved all my parts from the box I’d thrown them all in. The stab was now stuck to the wing.
I removed it by loosening the stuck areas with solvent. Ho hum…

After a session with a tissue and acetone to clean off the old sticky stuff I tried again. With a decent frame to carry the film covering the wing was uneventful. I then propped it up and dropped the tips. I really like the way the OS film gathers up on itself when you take the looseness out of it. Just draw a damp brush along the outside edge of the last flat rib and it all tightens up nicely.
I have learnt from other planes that masking the ribs off to prevent adhesive settling on them helps when covering. The film having the freedom to slide about on the ribs means it settles down nicely. Also there is slightly less adhesive on the plane so the mass is lower.
When the covering was on and the tips set I added the wing posts. I used Polyimide tubing. This works better if you roll some CA around the tubes. It stiffens them up a bit and also acts as a key for gluing to the wing spar. I added a small blob of Duco and used a set square to align the tube. When set I added more Duco to create a nice little fillet.

All that remained was to cover the prop blades and make a fixed pitch hub.
Prop blades were covered with the aid of a twisted film jig and came out OK.
I rolled up some tissue tubes for the hub. I really don’t get on with tissue tube rolling, it takes me forever and I get frustrated. In the end I made up a reasonably nice 25mm tube for the hub. I popped a 5mm piece of 1.9mm balsa rod in the centre to act as a hub base and to poke the wire through. I used the standard 13 guitar string for the prop shaft, bent in a slim hook shape. Two ptfe washers were punched out of sheet and added to reduce friction and the pitch set at a reasonable 720mm (28.3463”)

Last thing to do was brace the motor stick with tungsten wire. The usual issues present themselves when working with something that is effectively invisible. Tape the ends and take your time.

It was all finished. Yay!
I put it together and that was when I noticed the wing was facing the opposite direction to the rest of the plane. Doh1 I had offset the wing post tubes by 15mm the wrong way. I soaked the tubes off and then re attached 30mm in the opposite direction. I added a 15mm doubler on the inside of the spar to prevent any stress in this area when the glue dries and shrinks.

Then is really was all done. I tried to follow Ivan’s plan but I deviated in several places. I didn’t make carbon wing posts, my fin is not adjustable, my prop is a boron/balsa stumpy spar version and not the carbon capped rib version on the plan. I have a few tiny additions to make like a web on the front bearing wire and I need to look at a VP hub, but for now I am quite happy with the whole thing.
It floats nicely across my living room with 0.4g rubber hanging off of it. I now need to pluck up the courage to wind it up and let it go!



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: bjt4888 on January 18, 2019, 08:59:31 PM
Skymon,

Very much enjoyed following your build. Nice job. I have all the wood I need to build an F1D, just haven’t worked up the determination. Your build is encouraging me.

Brian


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Olbill on January 18, 2019, 11:19:05 PM
Nice job!


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 21, 2019, 03:47:18 AM
Skymon,

Very much enjoyed following your build. Nice job. I have all the wood I need to build an F1D, just haven’t worked up the determination. Your build is encouraging me.

Brian

Brian
I'd say give it a go. Some scary things were easy and some straight forward things caused me problems.
I tend to look at all the data I can find and read everything.
Then I have a go at it. When there is some advice I don't understand I ignore it and that normally leads to me making a mistake. But that then allows me to understand why the advice was what it was. I am not good at just doing what I'm told :) I have an enquiring mind.

I will do a synopsis of my efforts, as I did for the F1R build.

I'm not an expert by a long way, the thread was written in the hope it would show that the F1D is achievable if you are prepared to have a go and learn along the way.

I've no idea if it will fly :)
There's a whole load of new things to learn there.

Best regards
Si



Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Olbill on January 21, 2019, 12:09:02 PM

I tend to look at all the data I can find and read everything.
Then I have a go at it. When there is some advice I don't understand I ignore it and that normally leads to me making a mistake. But that then allows me to understand why the advice was what it was. I am not good at just doing what I'm told :) I have an enquiring mind.


This is pretty much a mirror of my initial learning process for indoor models in general. This is especially true of trimming techniques and motor selection. This attitude probably stretches out the time required for the learning process as compared to blindly doing what someone else recommends but in the end I think I found a few nuggets along the way.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 21, 2019, 01:58:46 PM
Bill
If I don't know why things are happening I can't mess with them with any degree of confidence


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: piecost on January 21, 2019, 02:16:42 PM
Sometimes i "know" a fact; it has come from a reputable source but I don't get it. It may take some time for the explanation to come clear in my mind and to sink-in. Perhaps anther experience triggers the information making sense.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Olbill on January 21, 2019, 04:27:58 PM
Sometimes i "know" a fact; it has come from a reputable source but I don't get it. It may take some time for the explanation to come clear in my mind and to sink-in. Perhaps anther experience triggers the information making sense.

Exactly. Then one of two things are likely to happen. Either it dawns on you what they are talking about or you find a better way.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 22, 2019, 04:10:01 AM
What did I learn?
If I look at the new processes I learnt as I built the F1D, then I don’t see that many. My build log of the F1R is filled with lessons learnt, while the F1D is less so.
The F1R was a lot harder, the materials are fragile, the dimensions are smaller and the whole thing is critically based on weight reduction.
The F1D was more a lesson in neatness and control. The min weight is achievable if you take care and the materials are all much more robust than F1R. As a result I think the F1D is a model that anyone who's got some experience with indoor models can build.
I approached the project with trepidation, there is a lot of info on the web about F1D. It’s the big international class, there’s a lot at stake. The indoor flying crowd are masterfully adept at sharing information, there is no attempt to hide the latest developments; everyone shares.
This plethora of info makes it a little intimidating to actually get going. Which route do I take?
In the end I just chose a nice looking plan that had been published. It was reasonably up to date and I like the shape.
There were a few things on the plan that I wasn’t sure about, I ignored them and did something different, usually after asking for the advice of the whole F1D crowd.

The first thing I learnt is something I always champion and yet I found it hard. Just get stuck in.
Make something and if it’s not to your liking, do it again.

Starting with flying surfaces I learnt that masking the ribs off when spraying adhesive helps. The film finds its own way and those diagonal spiders web creases tend to be less prevalent. I needed to make big frames, these need to nice and rigid. Gluing a handle to the part to be dropped on the film really does help, just remember to remove it after.

Of the surfaces I covered the wing was fine, the stab is flappy and saggy and I will probably make another, it’s overweight anyhow.

Regarding rolled balsa tubes I applied lessons learnt in the F1R construction. A tip from Bob Bailey meant I switched to Duco rather than UHU. He mentioned that it grabbed better. It did.
Lining up posts in all directions is important to me. I love a bit of neatness. I took my time here and teased the holes in the stick to make sure I was 90 degrees up and 90 degrees along when attaching wing posts. Use a square and check and check again.

Adding boron to everything was intimidating but actually not too much bother. It isn’t a great feature as I see it popping off here and there, so it’s a constant task to check each and every addition and glue down any that come loose. Hopefully as carbon fibre increases in use the boron will decrease.

I hit my usual problem, I built too robust, especially in the prop area. There’s a lot of work in a prop and I wanted to make sure it wasn’t going to let me down.
In the end it was pretty heavy and I have started another one, as I did for F1R. Took me four goes there…

I have added the web up the front and also added small tissue wraps around the motor tube and boom ends to stop them flaring on insertion.

That's about it.
Have a go.

I added a picture of my kitchen that I have been building along side the F1D.
I don't expect the kitchen to fly.
Si


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Uggy on January 23, 2019, 11:49:43 AM
Hi Skymon;

Thank's for the informations you keep sharing. This is very helpful.


> Starting with flying surfaces I learnt that masking the ribs off when spraying adhesive helps.

Can you please describe a bit more how you are masking ribs ?

> A tip from Bob Bailey meant I switched to Duco rather than UHU. He mentioned that it grabbed better. It did.

Do you mean for all parts, or only for rolled balsa tubes with a possible different stress ?

I have read an article from Bob in 2014 saying "I now use Duco or UHU thinned with an equal volume of acetone for
most joints including attaching boron; it has excellent contact strength almost from the instant of making the joint"
So I'm a bit confused.. and need to know if I have to go for Duco (which I will do if you confirm it's better)

So jumping on that to have experts thoughts/confirmation on current formula for Duco/Uhu


Thank you


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Olbill on January 23, 2019, 03:33:49 PM
I use Duco for almost everything.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Tmat on January 23, 2019, 05:11:35 PM
I use Duco for almost everything.
Toothpaste Bill?

Tmat - well, maybe not everything


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 24, 2019, 02:53:12 AM
I masked the ribs by placing a couple of pieces of paper over each one.
I cut a some strips about 15mm wide, folded them on the centre to make a V shape, turned them over and placed over the ribs.
By placing one over the other I can make a rudimentary extendible mask.
Simple as that.

I found DUCO to grab better than UHU or Humbrol.
All of them work though, I built my F1R with Humbrol.
DUCO seemed to grab quicker and set faster.

I mix 50/50 with acetone for most things.

Regards


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Uggy on January 24, 2019, 04:49:42 AM
Hi Skymon

OK, I was thinking at first you were masking side of the ribs, keeping top of the ribs exposed to adhesive. Seems not the case.
Not sure ton understand the process here, you spray adhesive on LE/TE only, and then how do you glue film to ribs ?

Thank's!


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 24, 2019, 06:11:13 AM
Hiya
The film sticks to the outline of the wing/stab/fin.
If you've not covered an indoor with OS film before then I'd suggest you have a look at the videos on YOUTUBE that explain the process.
I've not really mentioned it on this build as it is well covered in detail on other threads and in INAV and online.

Here's Josh showing how it's done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqR7_C1wO88&t=537s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqR7_C1wO88&t=537s)

S


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Olbill on January 24, 2019, 11:20:20 AM
I don't glue the film to the ribs.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Uggy on January 24, 2019, 01:18:03 PM
Hi,

I have covered in the past with Y2K and 3M77 (and was gluing the ribs :) )

The other articles [1] I have read about film gluing (and the Josh's video too) do glue the film on the ribs too.
This is why I was surprised some are masking ribs and asked for more details on this.
I learned now it is possible to not glue ribs (without impacting flight). Thank's for sharing. That's indeed new to me. I will look deeper on this now.

[1] Kang / Mark Bennett / Ray Harlan


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on January 25, 2019, 02:54:38 AM
I saw someone somewhere say they masked ribs and I also saw a picture of someone using the post-it note reference tabs to do it.
I think possibly on the facebook groups.
I pondered why they might be doing this and then when I made a poor attempt at covering my stab I realised that a saggy covering may benefit from sticky ribs, but a more even one would actually be hindered because it would be constrained on contact.

I think if you cover loose, and some people do, then the rib contact would hold the surface shape together better.
But if you cover tighter then the ability to move slightly on the ribs helps make the surface more even.

It might be worth a topic on it to get input from the real experts rather than me and my paltry single plane ever opinions :)


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Uggy on January 26, 2019, 05:58:10 AM
Thank's for the additional informations shared.


Title: Re: My first F1D
Post by: Skymon on May 21, 2019, 08:29:25 AM
I flew the F1D for the first time a couple of weeks ago at TVAC in Windsor.
My first powered flights were not great.
I struggled to get the prop on and had to modify the hook shape to allow me to get it in. A lesson learned there.
I popped some rubber on and let it go.
Power dive. Adjust, more power diving.

My boom was sagging.
Not the boom itself, but the joiner.
I'd used a stump that was way too small and too weak.
This is a critical joint and my efforts were not up to the pressure.

I have since removed the weedy plug and replaced with a mighty plug.
The original 14 though wood was replaced by some twice as thick.
I figured that this is a small component and I'd rather the plane flew than didn't.
I created the plug and fitted it to the motor stick, then carefully sanded it to a nice fit on the boom.
I marked a little alignment mark when the fin was vertical and I had what looked like the correct tail tilt.

Now I wait for the second opportunity to fly.

The day at TVAC wasn't a complete washout, I managed to beat my F1L record and sneak just over the nine minute mark without gong anywhere near the ceiling.
I was being precious because I was testing three new wings and I wanted to be damage free.


Happy flying
Si