Hip Pocket Builders' Forum

Indoor Free Flight Forum => CO2 Power, Indoor => Topic started by: danmellor on April 19, 2018, 06:40:37 PM



Title: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 19, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
Seeing as the Cub is now banned, I thought I'd crack on with next year's KS hopeful whilst enthusiasm is running high... I actually started it a couple of weeks ago whilst waiting for supplies to re-cover the Farman wing arrived.

Dumas 30" Gipsy Moth with GM300 CO2 conversion. I quite fancy the colour scheme from the Peck peanut kit: No reg. to mask and spray apart from very small on the rudder!

Everything so far (including motor) weighs just under 80g and there is a LOT of wing area!

If anyone wants to join in with next year's KS models, please do!!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on April 19, 2018, 06:50:18 PM
Great choice, Dan- and already looking very nice! I'm also plumping for the 30" Dumas range, with their Eindecker- I'll be starting it soon on the WW1 thread.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 19, 2018, 07:04:54 PM
I look forward to seeing that one, Pete! The Dumas range has been under represented in KS so far and there are some nice models in there. I did fancy the 30" Staggerwing, but I have a thing about models of prototypes with retracts flying about with everything a-dangling. I bought the kit in a moment of weakness, so I may modify it to one of the fixed u/c spatted early versions. No good for KS, though, as it's not on the plan...

Cheers!

Dan.



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on April 19, 2018, 07:12:09 PM
Steady on chaps .... didn't even enter and I'm still taking a breath!  :)

In truth, it's great to see the enthusiasm.



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 19, 2018, 07:20:21 PM
I say I bought the Staggerwing kit in a moment of weakness. In truth; it was EBay+11% Chocolate Stout...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on April 20, 2018, 03:22:12 AM
My 2019 KS choice has been determined for me by sheer chance!  In the raffle on Sunday, the Kid and I won a 22" span Golden Age Boeing F4B-4 kit, which looks as pugnacious as the Camel, but even more bristling and colourful!

It would of course be an ideal candidate for CO2, but (ahem!) a certain Andy Blackburn had, by equally sheer randomness, just purchased the identical kit from Kevin's stand, so I might (maybe) be compelled to level the playing field and do it for rubber...?  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on April 20, 2018, 07:23:44 AM
Must be something in the water or wine..... I am also motivated more than usual.  I am not a fan by a long way of building from kits - something from my childhood but as I understand it offerings from people like Mike Midkiff are acceptable so I could see something like that as a compromise.  I have some.  And some of those from one or two other of the cottage industries are rather nice.

I have the Midkiff Skyraider kit and the Besson MB411. The former is a biggie - 30 ins span and red MB a tad smaller at 27ins.  So would they fit in the hall?

So watch this space - you never know I could maintain this mood for a year!  And I suppose I could enter the Spud in the WWICU?  That was from a plan by Mr. Midkiff.  As were the decals.

Now Jon, that choice of model - the Boeing looks to me by very ambitious.  I always looked at that aircraft as one of those you strapped on your back, banged the throttle forward against the gate and if the engine cut in mid air prayed.  So good luck! 

So sorry to hear about your work Dan, but it now seems common place because of the new management culture of bully bash and bewilder. This by the way I believe  stemmed from a feeling of insecurity by todays management. When I was made a "manager" I was given lots of advice but the piece I always remembered was now you are a manager remember what it was like when you weren't!  So I always tried to nurture people rather than dominate.

But what is this about the Cub being banned - did it hit one of the judges? 8)  However I gather that in America some the FAC contests exclude monoplanes because they are considered to have an advantage over multi wing for example; but the CD can use his discretion on the day!  If I have not got this right sorry - please correct me - I am just a limey of course.

I hope this topic will thrive because momentum is the key.   


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 20, 2018, 07:34:45 AM
Hi David!

The Cub is banned as any podium placing in KS now sees that model banned from entering again. The Cub is 36", so your 30" and 27" should have no problems fitting into Walsall...!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Micromotor on April 20, 2018, 09:09:28 AM
Hi danmellor !
And what kind of engine are you going to put on your plane? Photo is avaiable?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on April 20, 2018, 12:14:52 PM
Oh of course, stupid boy that I am!  Well done on that place by the way.  I meant to say earlier but senior moments and all that.

Been looking at those two kits I mentioned.  I think the Skyraider - but many of them had great colour schemes which I would have a job emulating.  So the floatplane?  Hmm  dolly for RoF.  Now am I right in thinking with KS you can opt for a different power source?  Must check.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 20, 2018, 06:39:33 PM
Hi David! Yes you can modify the model's power source and (I think) the wheels. That's about it, though! No sneaky lightening of the structure or other such underhanded tactics... Unless it's invisible under the tissue, of course! Not that we would stoop so low, of course!

I won a little Guillow's Skyraider kit in the Nats raffle. I am giving it to one of my NCMAC pals as it's one I will never build. I know it was a great aircraft and beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc., but I've always thought it was one pig ugly lump! Sorry...Tee hee.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Graham Banham on April 21, 2018, 03:38:13 AM
David,

The Midkiff Besson’s been done: Simon Rogers:  Kit Scale, 2016 Nats.

Flew nicely: just needed more poke.

The KS rules allow you to move the motor peg forward for rubber as well.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 21, 2018, 12:47:54 PM
Spent a lot of today gluing the noseblock lams together and then viciously attacking them with a sanding block. It's always the little bits and pieces that take 90% of the time!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on April 21, 2018, 04:36:09 PM
Not CO2 but I’m doing the KK Erco Ercoupe.

The first rubber powdered model I got to fly 35 years ago!

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 21, 2018, 07:20:40 PM
Nice one Andrew! I bought the KK/VMC Ercoupe just before Christmas. Another one on the ever-growing "to do" list, so please keep us posted on yours!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 22, 2018, 11:11:52 AM
Gipsy cowl rough carved and covering of flying surfaces underway...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on April 22, 2018, 11:23:52 AM
Nice one Andrew! I bought the KK/VMC Ercoupe just before Christmas. Another one on the ever-growing "to do" list, so please keep us posted on yours!

Cheers,

Dan.

Will do, but I’m working from the scans of the kit wood from the original kit I have, and wielding the scalpel on this one, not a laser cut part in sight!

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 22, 2018, 12:27:48 PM
Hardcore...!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on April 22, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Thank you Don and Graham.  Encouraging!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 08, 2018, 03:15:00 PM
Progress on the Gipsy. Everything is covered and doped except the tailplane and interplane struts.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: C VEICH on May 12, 2018, 03:22:52 AM
That is a stunning result Dan, just gorgeous.  I have had the great pleasure of seeing the full size in the Yanks Air Museum on a number of occasions.  It is but one of many, many beautifully restored vintage aircraft on display.  Looking forward to seeing pictures of your finished build.

 


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 12, 2018, 04:20:04 AM
Thanks! That's a very handy pic for documentation, too...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 15, 2018, 06:47:10 PM
Most of the last little fiddly bits are slowly coming together. U/C soldered up, dummy exhaust on and last coats of banana oil drying on the lower wings.

I'm quite pleased with the effect of the silver beading elastic. It would probably be a bit too much for anything smaller than this, but I think it looks quite cool on the Gipsy; which is 1/12th scale.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 16, 2018, 06:40:24 AM
All the finished components including pilot, wheels etc. weigh 125g. I reckon another 10g for glue, rigging and anything I've forgotten. This means a much lower loading than the Cub!

Cheers,

A happy Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 17, 2018, 07:09:33 PM
First trial assembly. All looks well so far!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 17, 2018, 07:31:17 PM
...Note to self: Remember to add windscreens before finally mounting wings!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 19, 2018, 05:33:28 PM
Nearly there!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on May 19, 2018, 06:04:02 PM
Looking great Dan  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 19, 2018, 06:09:59 PM
Cheers Russ! Very pleased with it so far. I'm bound to stick a finger through it or drop it before it's finished. I'm great at stuff like that... I've just got to finish the u/c, print the reg. for the rudder and wait for the "Moth" logo decals for the forward fus to arrive. Plus the rigging, of course!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 20, 2018, 06:57:51 AM
...And the windscreens that I STILL forgot to do before gluing the wing on.

Sigh.

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 22, 2018, 02:56:37 PM
Rigging done! Not a great pic, but you can see the effect of the silver beading elastic.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 22, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
That's highly effective, Dan! Whole model looks great. I ordered the same stuff on Ebay after you recommended it, but no sign of it yet.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on May 22, 2018, 03:31:02 PM
Very nice, but I still don’t see that wind screen?!  ;)

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 22, 2018, 03:53:59 PM
Nope! They'll probably be next...

Cheers!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 24, 2018, 05:14:02 AM
Windscreens finally on! all that remains to be done is a bit more paint spraying for the intakes on the cowl and the dummy horns and cables for the tail control surfaces. These are shown on the plan, so I won't lose any marks in Kit Scale.

132g so far. Quite pleased with that as it's a lot more airframe than the Cub (113g) and a lot more wing area! The Cub was nice and slow, so I'm hoping this will be similar. Lower loading and bucketfulls of drag should help...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Yak 52 on May 25, 2018, 04:49:37 AM
You do build lovely stuff Dan 8)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 25, 2018, 12:29:45 PM
Thank you kind sir!

Today's progress limited to finally gluing rudder on and adding tailskid. After a week on nights; I'm off down the boozer...

Cheers!

Dan


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on May 26, 2018, 02:33:46 PM
After a week on nights; I'm off down the boozer...

Enjoy!  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 26, 2018, 04:38:40 PM
Ooooh I did, thanks Jon!

Everything done apart from the "Moth" logos, which are still in the post. I may do some instrument panels, too. None shown on plan, so I dunno how I'd go under KS rules, but it would look so much better than bare balsa.

134g all up. Pleased with that for a 30" Bipe!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on May 26, 2018, 07:02:50 PM
Glad you enjoyed a scoop or two!

Fantastic Dan, really lovely neat work as always..

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 26, 2018, 07:06:24 PM
Very nice indeed, Dan! Your models have real style. I agree that a dial or two would add a lot to the cockpits, so hope you go for it. I can't imagine KS judges would object. After all, if they're just paper dashboards then they're essentially just markings or decals aren't they?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on May 26, 2018, 09:20:41 PM
Hi Dan.  What a gorgeous color scheme, and engine and rigging and spoke wheels!     :o ::)   I also have that  30"  Dumas  "DH 60 Gypsy Moth" kit.  After looking at yours, it might go to the top of the list.   Kudos.

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 27, 2018, 05:45:12 AM
Thanks all for the kind words! I'll get the last bits of spraying done on the noseblock today. The CG looks just about spot on with the big lump of CO2 motor up front. I dread to think how much ballast a rubber version would need...

Cheers,

Dan


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on May 27, 2018, 07:13:25 AM
 Belated “Looks great” Don,  and in this case the pristine finish is absolutely appropriate.  Normally I don’t go for that “look” preferring authenticity!

Now a comment you made above about what the plan shows etc. gave me a thought.

I like to put a bit of detail at least on my models but in kit scale this can of course work against you. And it suddenly dawned - what about a Midkiff kit or another of the “cottage industry” models produced by rather be people.

Most if not all of Mikes plans plans show a lot of detail.  They are part kits, or like me you can just buy the plan. Anyway the point is, kit or plan you have quite a bit of scope to embellish your model.  More so than many kits I think.  But that said I would hate to see this class moving away from the original concept.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Rich Adams on May 27, 2018, 08:48:09 AM
I read a lot about this "kit scale" but could someone help out a good ol' Texas boy and explain the basic rules for me? I think I get so far that you have to build from a kit exactly the way the kit directs you to, right?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 27, 2018, 09:24:08 AM
Built from a kit or kit plan. Allowed mods are power source, wheels and moving rubber peg location. Any deviations other than those are penalised; as is a fully painted finish. That's it in a nutshell!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Rich Adams on May 27, 2018, 10:03:55 AM
Thanks Dan. Sounds fair enough. Here in the US, we devised yet another category of model building called simplified scale. This is an attempt to allow simple renditions of real models to enter into a class of their own without going through any kind of rigorous review by judges or other "authorities". It seems to be gaining in popularity because it is lowest on the contest stress level.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 27, 2018, 10:38:09 AM
Sounds very similar to Kit Scale. The only documentation needed is the plan and some proof of colour scheme. Doesn't even have to be an actual scheme as long as it's decorated in "an appropriate manner". Kit scale allows you to build as nice a model as you can without having to assemble the reams of documentation that are needed for an open class model.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on May 27, 2018, 01:50:08 PM
Rich, Kit Scale also sets a reasonably achievable standard (especially for those who still work full-time and/or have other commitments - like me!) so that people can at least experience entering competitions with proven (kit) designs.  I understand that it was also first conceived as an entry-ramp in the expectation that some would naturally then progress to the open classes.  It has however certainly proved extremely popular in its own right, with typically 25-30 entries in each year's Nationals.

For me it captures the spirit of stick and tissue aero-modelling as I knew it as a kid in the 70s... but this time with models that are more crisply and accurately made and which stand a chance of putting in a decent performance ROG indoors!  The min flight time is just ten seconds (fifteen for the open classes) with flight scores based on the quality and realism of the different flight phases - so despite the slightly lower standard expected in terms of static, there is still much to aim for in terms of performance.

Jon


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 28, 2018, 08:02:29 AM
Last bit of paint on noseblock. I couldn't resist tarting up the prop while I was at it! That's it until Moth logos arrive...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 28, 2018, 08:24:28 AM
Looks like a surefire winner, Dan!



 (Unless of course a shaman, who's obviously sold his soul to Lucifer, turns up with an impossibly fine flying CO2 Camel or some such voodoo.  ;D)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on May 28, 2018, 08:35:30 AM
Yup - go with that.  Yes, I used to take my toys to bed with me. Took a while to grow out of it so don't worry Don. Have you been test gliding her?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 28, 2018, 08:54:12 AM
Just the traditional "chucks onto the bed" so far. Can't tell much unless something is SERIOUSLY amiss, but all looks ok.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on May 28, 2018, 09:06:25 AM
Good...... !


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 28, 2018, 03:37:06 PM
Just realised I haven't actually got a transport/storage box big enough to fit this. Could be some creative cardboard cutting coming up.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on May 28, 2018, 04:37:58 PM
A number of my boxes have come from Lakeland.  They are very sturdy and suitably large even though they have only contained a small item. Often with useful "packing".


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on May 28, 2018, 05:17:27 PM
Oooh! Might be worth pursuing... I work at a place that uses an awful lot of boxes, but none big enough for a 30" Moth...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on May 28, 2018, 08:28:49 PM
Lovely looking DH60 Dan. It deserves the bed - you can take the floor :) :)

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: C VEICH on May 30, 2018, 03:34:17 AM
Thanks! That's a very handy pic for documentation, too...

Cheers,

Dan.

My pleasure Dan and congratulations on the very finely finished model.  A real stunner and I hope she flies as good as she looks.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Mikek on June 01, 2018, 10:17:05 PM
Dan,
Maybe I missed this in the thread somewhere. What did you cover the wing and fuselage with? Is it chalked Esaki tissue or some other kind of colored tissue?
You mentioned that your models cannot be completely painted for your kit scale contests.

And...I am finishing up a Guillow’s Aeronca Champ with a Telco motor. I intend to fly it outdoor but suppose I could try it indoor as well.  What section should I post it in?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 02, 2018, 04:02:06 AM
Hi Mike! Main finish is Silver Esaki tissue. This doesn't seem to be as dense/opaque as it used to be, but is still a lot better than grey tissue for representing a silver doped finish.

The red areas are sprayed Tamiya Acrylic. KS allows painted trim/markings without penalty. It's only a very light coat on the rear decking, which was covered in red tissue.

Take your pick as to where the Aeronca goes! Look forward to seeing it, wherever...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 02, 2018, 11:58:41 AM
In making up a transport/storage box, I am the only bloke in the world who could drop lid of said box through the tissue on the stbd upper wing...sigh.

An idiotic Dan.



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Mikek on June 02, 2018, 12:31:06 PM
Dan,
You know your’e in good company! Every one of us has dropped something on, poked fingers or other things through the tissue or you name it!  :D
I’m sure you’ll have it repaired in no time.
Beautiful model by the way. Looking forward to seeing video of it flying.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 02, 2018, 12:58:19 PM
"I'm bound to stick a finger through it or drop it before it's finished. I'm great at stuff like that..." A direct quote from an earlier post.

Just call me Nostradamus...

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 03, 2018, 09:45:36 AM
Self inflicted damage fixed. Storage box finished, so it should be safe from any more attacks of the clumsies…

Cheers!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 07, 2018, 11:02:33 AM
Done!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on June 07, 2018, 11:41:09 AM
So it is, and very nicely too!  Has potential for being banned, I would guess?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 07, 2018, 11:56:42 AM
I've got to get it to fly first!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Tim Horne on June 07, 2018, 03:42:05 PM
Superb Dan!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: ZK-AUD on June 07, 2018, 03:46:14 PM
Yup.  Banned for sure!!  Love it Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on June 07, 2018, 05:12:55 PM
I've got to get it to fly first!

Oh stop making a fuss....... of course it will. 8)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on June 07, 2018, 06:26:21 PM
It's yet another beauty, Dan! I don't quite know what it is about your models but (as with all the best modellers) you can somehow tell who's made them.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 08, 2018, 01:11:32 AM
Thanks all! Most kind...

I'm looking forward to some calm weather when I'm not at bloody work. At least my Club field is only 5 minutes up the road, so if conditions look promising, I can get there before quickly.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on June 08, 2018, 02:11:47 AM
Spent all of 5 minutes knocking up some very basic instruments. They do look a lot better than acres of bare wood, though!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on June 08, 2018, 05:18:47 AM
Aha!  The finishing touches make such a difference (to an already fine model)!

 :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on August 09, 2018, 07:09:31 PM
It's my Club's Fun Fly this weekend. The last two such events were blessed with perfect flat calm conditions, so I'm hoping for a repeat this year to give the Moth it's first airing! If anyone fancies a trip to the Cotswolds, the details are probably on the NCMAC site, if not on here...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on August 09, 2018, 07:14:02 PM
It is indeed in the "Event Announcements" section on here!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Mikek on August 10, 2018, 08:23:20 AM
Best of luck this weekend, Dan!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on August 10, 2018, 07:12:28 PM
Thanks, but it's just a flying weekend; no comps! Main aim is to get the Gipsy roughly trimmed before trying it indoors...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on August 11, 2018, 04:53:14 AM
A bit breezy here (Norfolk) but being further inland you may fare better?  Where do you fly as a matter of interest - Little Rissington used to be nice. 


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on August 11, 2018, 05:01:19 AM
Not too windy here! NCMAC fly on a farm just outside Moreton In Marsh.

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Gromit on September 13, 2018, 05:02:19 PM
Built from a kit or kit plan. Allowed mods are power source, wheels and moving rubber peg location. Any deviations other than those are penalised; as is a fully painted finish. That's it in a nutshell!

Dan.

Dan

Deviations to improve flight such as increased dihedral, tail area etc as you say would be penalised under kit scale rules but decoration such as paper instrument panels would not be - on my shift anyway.  So if I judge it next year then no penalties for that.  What is difficult for judges is to balance any extra detail against the as per plan requirement in the 'Overall Character' section of the results ie they should not be unduly influenced by the detail if it is not provided on the plan.  This is where some of the kit plans give more scope to impress the judges such as the detailed Comet and Sterling plans versus the simpler keil Kraft etc.  Another interesting scenario is say the reduction of dihedral from the plan to a more realistic amount - should this be penalised although it reduces stability?  Again a balance between the overall appearance compared to the prototype versus loss of character of the kit intent - again down to the view of the judges on the day so we mustn't expect identical scores from different judges.

Doug




Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: BBailey on September 13, 2018, 09:19:08 PM
Spent all of 5 minutes knocking up some very basic instruments. They do look a lot better than acres of bare wood, though!
 

Oh my goodness!!! You do magnificent work. The cabling from what I see all has connecting fixtures and the gauges are fantastic. I wished I could handle Interlaced Cabling like you do. If you don't mind I would like to save that picture with your name on it and date. With your permission, I would like to make a 24" x 36" picture of it and hang it on my workshop wall for inspiration!! I'll wait for your contact.

Thank you.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 16, 2018, 11:08:16 AM
Not sure what state my Eindecker will be in after the outdoor season finishes, and until I get it to the Velodrome I won't know how well it goes indoors. Therefore, I'm casting around for another Kit Scale project so as to have a spare model ready for the 2019 indoor nats. I'm fast inclining towards this 150% version of the KK Chipmunk, originally kitted by Replikit and so now available from VMC.

150% gets the model to a useful 27" span. What really appeals to me though is the possiblity of doing this scarlet version, which was the aircraft Prince Charles learned to fly on, and did his first solo. There's an article on the aircraft in a recent edition of Flypast. I'm thinking nice easy tissue finish and a little jug-eared caricature pilot complete with royal crown.

Question is, can I get decent tissue in that red/orange colour? I don't think it's an Esaki shade. Also, how much of a points hit will I suffer by adding the little beacon on the canopy, I wonder? Never mind, I think this one needs doing!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 16, 2018, 12:06:10 PM
Dan's just messaged me to say that the Replikit 150% Chippie is actually an enlarged Veron Chipmunk, not the KK one as (mis)stated on the VMC site. Thanks for the warning, Dan. A pity though, as in my opinion the KK version is a better looking model. I don't like the way the wings meet to make a point under the fus. on the Veron one. I'm just going by pictures I've found on Google.

There is still the Dumas 30" option if I want to go even larger I suppose.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Squirrelnet on September 16, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
This one sounds great Pete, particularly the Prince Charles pilot, but will we have to bow or courtesy as it flies past ?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Indoorflyer on September 16, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Hi Pete.  Would the Aerographics/Richard Preston Chipmunk fit your mission?
Also Frog produced a Chippie in the deluxe scale series.

(Downloads available on AeroFred and House of Frog, respectively)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on September 16, 2018, 02:18:39 PM
This one sounds great Pete, particularly the Prince Charles pilot, but will we have to bow or courtesy as it flies past ?

No, just hold up a photograph of some contemporary architecture and wait for the spin!   ;D

(Only joking!)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on September 16, 2018, 02:33:15 PM

Hi Pete.  Would the Aerographics/Richard Preston Chipmunk fit your mission?
Also Frog produced a Chippie in the deluxe scale series.


The Aerographics version looks more authentic (John Bowerman entered a lovely one in this year's Nats which scored very high on static), but the KK one is both elegant in itself and convincing enough in its looks (this is KS so total accuracy doesn't matter) and is surely lighter than the Preston one at any given wingspan.  I built the KK one at the original 20" span, which is a very stable flier.  Jon Whitmore entered a very good Frog version a few years ago which was a top-job on static and flew very well.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on September 16, 2018, 02:43:26 PM
Pete,
        Have you considered dyeing tissue as that surely will be legal. We allow the use of ink or dye for colour with our kit scale and it is very light. This surely no different to using wrapping tissue that is available in a very wide range of colours even if it is a pig to cover with and not durable. I have stripped the wing of the Comper for repair and also repair to the Cub. Peterborough was a bit rough on models.
Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 16, 2018, 02:58:10 PM
Thanks all. Yes, Jon, all the models you've just mentioned are lovely. I've always liked the KK version best of all because to me it captures the essence of the aircraft really well in just a few elegantly placed sticks. Some kits just do this, and others fall slightly short. The Frog, KK and Aerographics are all around 20 or 21 inches which is okay, but ideally I'd like to build 24-27". Still, beggars can't be choosers. I might just go with the Keil Kraft I think. At least it'll go nicely in smaller halls and I've still got the plan and printwood that Andrew D kindly gave me ages ago.

After a little googling and picture-pilfering, here are Jon Whitmore's Frog version and your KK one side by side for comaprison. Beauties both!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on September 17, 2018, 03:42:50 AM
Can't you enlarge the KK plan and go from there?  IOt does not have to be built from a kit does it - merely the lan?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 17, 2018, 04:38:41 AM
Can't you enlarge the KK plan and go from there?  It does not have to be built from a kit does it - merely the plan?

No, you can't enlarge the kit plan under indoor KS rules, David. The Replikit 150% Veron plan would be okay, but that's only because Replikit actually produced a kit in that enlarged size.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: VMC on September 17, 2018, 07:01:38 AM
Hello all

Just to clear this up, the Replikit 150% scale Chipmunk is an upscaled version of the Veron Tru-Flite kit NOT the KK small flying scale version.

Our website had the kit incorrectly labelled as KK - sorry about that.

I have just corrected this.

For those of you that prefer the KK version, it would be reasonably easy for us to upscale that one too if there was sufficient demand.

[email protected]


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 17, 2018, 08:03:38 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Hadi. I for one would be very interested in a 150 KK Chipmunk kit.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on September 17, 2018, 09:44:17 AM
Pete

Seems a bit of a sneaky way around the rulebook to get a manufacturer to up-scale the KK kit so it is eligible for BMFA competition....
Replikit as far as I recall, only made short kits and not a full kit, but I could be mistaken.
I have some "Physics of Flight" short kits - who made cnc copies of various KK (and other) kits but just supplied the plan to the original size.

Bears asking the STC to agree eligibility before anyone goes to any trouble or spends any money.

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on September 17, 2018, 10:13:17 AM
An interesting conundrum John, made more interesting by the fact that previously everyone thought the VMC/Replikit 150% version was the KK one!  Personally I'd have no objection, but I'm just a player rather than a committee member.

One question:  surely a 50% enlargement of the 20" original would make the wingspan 30"?  A span of 27" would denote an original of 18", or is there some other calculation at play?

For what its worth, my KK Chippie felt more comfortable outdoors than in, but it was my first flying model for nearly four decades and although not heavy wasn't particularly light either (35g AUW inc rubber, 0.65g/sq in) and I didn't yet have the experience or any large enough venue to risk it indoors!  Here it is nicely enough trimmed (except at the very end!) in plenty of outdoor space, all times consistently very close to 30 secs (on a 2x loop of 3/16" with 1000 turns) each flight... making it ideal for Outdoor KS!  https://photos.app.goo.gl/3aEj12PAKXLctt7k9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/3aEj12PAKXLctt7k9)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 17, 2018, 10:31:52 AM
John, rest assured I'm not trying to sneak around the rules! It's been discussed before, and on balance I wouldn't enter a new 'short kit' (that is one which never existed as a full kit) in KS. There are plenty of established kits and kit plans to choose from without giving myself that potential extra hassle. However, I believe the Replikit/VMC 150% kits are not short kits by any definition. They come in a box with everything provided and laser cut parts don't they? They're therefore simply 'kits' and so surely eligible.
Also, why shouldn't manufacturers produce genuine new, up-scaled, laser cut versions of old kits to satisfy a demand for Kit Scale entry? Surely if that happens then it simply means a company like VMC thrives and Kit Scale, yet again, contributes positively to the continued revival of our hobby?

That said, for a quiet life I'll probably just do a normal sized KK Chippie now.

(And sorry, Dan- I really didn't mean to steer your fine thread into controversial waters; I just wanted to build a Chipmunk, and was wondering which one!)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Yak 52 on September 17, 2018, 10:45:19 AM
my KK Chippie felt more comfortable outdoors than in...

Dave Crompton flew the KK Chippie against my FROG one in 2013. I seem to remember he brought two  :D

Some pilfered video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5u1u5hDx3U
 :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on September 17, 2018, 11:01:24 AM

Dave Crompton flew the KK Chippie against my FROG one in 2013. I seem to remember he brought two  :D

Some pilfered video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5u1u5hDx3U
 :)

Top pilfering Jon!

This virtual Chipfest makes me want to build another one!

Mmmm now...? I wonder which of my CO2 motors would be best..?  :D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on September 17, 2018, 11:04:27 AM
Hi Pete

Sorry, wasn't suggesting that you were trying to get around the rulebook. 
Just thinking out loud as it were, so a poor choice of of phrase on my part.

Was just trying to think from the Judge/CD's point of view.

I.e. if someone entered a 150% version and the original plan was just blown up - it would still say KK (or Veron etc.) and the smaller original dimensions on there.
Or do they re-draw the whole thing and include the new drawing/new designer's name so it is definately a new laser cut kit with new sizes.

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on September 17, 2018, 07:01:20 PM
Pete, this was meant to be a thread to discuss next year's models. That's exactly what you (and others) did!

Carry on...


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 18, 2018, 03:18:34 AM
Cheers, Dan! Okay...
My instinct is still that the 150% kits are proper kits, but John, you do have a very good point about the wood size dilemma and I hadn't factored that in at all.  My guess is that the Replikit 150 plans are indeed just blown up versions of the old plans, without any redrawing and with no adjustment of any stated wood sizes. Is that right?
 On the other hand, if there are laser cut parts in the box then someone must have decided, for those parts at least, whether to go with the original wood thicknesses or to increase them, for instance from 1/16 to 3/32. I hope they haven't gone thicker though, as I reckon you'd usually get away with keeping most sizes the same and so end up with a much more lightly loaded, floaty model. I can see that any discrepancy between the provided plan and the model does present a big problem for the judges though. I suppose they'd just have to make a ruling on it. I for one won't be arguing with their conclusion, although I do think it will be a shame if that conclusion is that the 150% kits should be banned from KS altogether.



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on September 18, 2018, 04:11:21 AM
Pete

We have an STC meeting on October 6th so I will raise it in AOB.

My take is that it should be ok.
But an old blown up plan may cause some judging issues, because anyone could do the same to get a larger model.

I know that in outdoor FF a 10% enlargement from original is allowed.

Sorry Dan for the hi-jack, but it does have some relevance to next year's models.

Regards John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 18, 2018, 04:38:16 AM
Thanks John. It will be interesting to hear what the STC think. Just to reiterate; I'm not all that bothered about this as there are about a million other potential kit projects I can do without going near the 150 Replikits!

But an old blown up plan may cause some judging issues, because anyone could do the same to get a larger model.
Well they could, but they won't. Who's seriously going to turn up with a blatently rule breaking model to an indoor KS contest?
For bonafide enlargements though I suppose the Replikit box lid, or a printout of a relevant webpage would quickly show the judges that the enlarged version had been kitted.

I know that in outdoor FF a 10% enlargement from original is allowed.
The 10% rule applies to the AM/MA designs contest. For outdoor kit scale you can enlarge it as much as you like.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on September 18, 2018, 06:52:33 PM
Just had a peek into the Chippie kit. All the stripwood has been resized on the plan, and the formers are nice and light 3/32" so the wood sizes should cause no problems static wise!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on September 19, 2018, 09:02:37 AM
Can't you enlarge the KK plan and go from there?  It does not have to be built from a kit does it - merely the plan?

No, you can't enlarge the kit plan under indoor KS rules, David. The Replikit 150% Veron plan would be okay, but that's only because Replikit actually produced a kit in that enlarged size.

Of course - had I thought about it for a minute or so........indoor but for outdoor "The model should (must??)be built to the kit plan which may be enlarged or reduced". 

I am not intending debate because the kit scale event has largely proved itself as very workable and everyone clearly understand the spirit intent and good sense of the rules, but do we have a case of when is a kit not a qualifying kit? 

I think I can follow the idea that if someone produces a kit of a model originally kitted with all the bits, but it is not "complete" (that is sans wire decals rubber etc.) e.g a short kit it can be argued that not being as per the original it is not a qualifying kit. I understand a qualifying model can simply be built from a plan. 

But what about one of the "modern" kits which is thereby manufactured, but a short kit, Does it qualify as a "kit" because that is how it is first marketed. It is not a re vamp of an original complete kit. But a manufactured (rubber) powered scale aircraft kit......

And a 150% kit although a remake of say the Keil Kaft Chipmunk (as has been said) is a kit in its own right - a manufactured rubber powered scale aircraft kit. So are not wood sizes up to the manufacturer?

My interest is that I have a couple of short kits which are "original" - including the plan- not a redraw/remake of say KK or Veron so is it not a qualifying kit?  But I am content to accept and follow Petes example when he says " I wouldn't enter a new 'short kit' (that is one which never existed as a full kit) in KS".   I can see that a short kit (of any origin) may not to be considered entirely in the spirit of things. 

The ones I have, being aimed I guess at a different market, show colours markings and rather more scale detail that the KK or Veron ones. They omit some wood and other things like wire tissue rubber etc.  That is preferable as far as I am concerned as I have strip wood wire tissue etc.

The detail on the plan could operate against me of course because I suppose if I did not follow the plan to its full extent I could be marked down.  That would not matter because it is my choice. It is "qualifying" as an entrant which is the issue.  Points and prizes are up to me.

So in short (and sorry if I have missed answers contained in earlier discussions)  can I

(a) enter a model built just from the plan prepared for a short kit
 
(b) enter a model built from an original short kit - that is not a short kit using for example the plan from an original full kit but where the copyright or origination rights rest with the manufacturer of the kit. That is he does not have licence from the original owner to use the plan.

(c) a model which is an enlarged version of an original kitted design with or without varied timber sizes, but is otherwise a newly manufactured kit in its own right.  (I accept indoor models cannot be enlarged versions).

If these questions are not easily answered "Yes/No" then OK - I will opt for a model that has no issues as I do not want time taken of volunteers on something that I can easily accommodate.  It is simply I have the plan of a Rumpler from an original short kit and a short kit of the ZL-CS1 floatplane. As Pete also says there are many others from which I can choose.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: ChrisH on September 19, 2018, 11:37:59 AM
Should we lobby the Indoor Scale Committee for a Rule change, simply allowing any previously kitted designs to be enlarged?

If such a change was made, should there be a requirement to enlarge the wood sections by the same percentage as the span etc. was enlarged?

Why not allow freedom to revise the wood cross section in all kits, to avoid using vast quantities of super light quality wood simply to reduce weight?

Regarding DavidJP's question about short kits...

Personally I don't see any objection to Kit Scale models being built from a 'short kit', or indeed a 'full kit, or rather a drawing supplied with what was once offered as a short or full kit.

My only slight hesitance lies in the cottage industry nature of some kits, where the availability of the kits may be somewhat limited.

Is there an accepted definition of what must be included in a short kit, or the minimum availability of kits in general?

Cynically perhaps, one could produce the drawing of your model, and offer a limited run of 'very short kits'.   An extensive run of 3 plans, each with a length of piano wire Sellotaped to the back, might fill the requirement!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Mefot on September 19, 2018, 11:56:28 AM
If I remember correctly Chris Blanch(?) won kit scale with a Sablatnig floatplane a few years ago and that was built from a short kit. I would think if the word kit is in the description it should qualify !!!  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on September 19, 2018, 12:23:24 PM
If a short kit has already won, then that would seem to be your answer; yes, they're allowed. Makes sense I suppose as even some kits which aren't actually called 'short kits' don't necessarily provide absolutely everthing you need.
Also, I think Dan's revelation about his Replikit Chippie having the wood resized on the plan clears up John M's judging concern and surely makes that (and presumaby the other enlarged Replikits) allowable too.

Cynically perhaps, one could produce the drawing of your model, and offer a limited run of 'very short kits'.   An extensive run of 3 plans, each with a length of piano wire Sellotaped to the back, might fill the requirement!
Well I suppose there might be people who are desperate to find a way to enter kit scale with a model which isn't a scale kit. Not sure who they'd be though!  :D

Should we lobby the Indoor Scale Committee for a Rule change, simply allowing any previously kitted designs to be enlarged?
Personally, I'd say absolutely not. The indoor KS rules don't need changing because they're attracting loads of very varied entries just as they are. If someone really wants to enlarge a design they still can, and put it in an open class instead, or in outdoor KS (where you can do what you like and get no points for plan adherence in any case).


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on September 19, 2018, 01:22:32 PM
I'm on it guys, but not going to waste anyone's time discussing the endless possibilities.  The rules are pretty clear already just need a clarification.

Suffice to say a ruling will be coming forth sometime after the 6th October STC meeting.  In plenty of time for you all to make a model before the April 28th indoor nats date.

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on September 21, 2018, 04:30:00 AM
Certainly I would not want any lobby for a rule change but am content to leave it entirely to the tech committee to take any route they feel appropriate. So far in my book as an observer they have not disgraced themselves in anyway.

As John says the rules are clear and so interpretation is up to the entrant. 

So far as anyone attempting to smart Alec their way round the rules is concerned they would fail because that would be seen as vexatious and not in the spirit of the occasion. So he (I doubt any of our lady colleagues would stoop so low) would soon be dismissed from the congregation.

So if I enter my floatplane can the organisers provide a suitable resovoir of water please that can be manouverable for the landings.  I am sure Richard Crossley would appreciate it for his Coronado that flys beautifully,if he he can tape a couple of pieces of piano wire and Balsa to a plan and sell some in time.  Kind of thing the Norfolk triumvirate are good at!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 03, 2018, 05:48:44 AM
MINOR KS RULE QUESTION:  if the kit plan says to use paper for, say, decking (but doesn't explicitly state something like 'advanced builders can substitute sheet balsa for paper') can one instead use very thin balsa (1/64) without incurring penalties ?  If the answer is that it isn't technically allowed, does this fall into the same category as the major felonies, each of which would attract a full 5 marks static score penalty - or would the sentence be more lenient?

From the current Judges Guide:
Judges should use their discretion over the total deductions made, particularly as some manufacturers offer alternate options on the plan for such things as separate control surfaces. As a guide, the following should each attract a 5 mark deduction:
(a)  Fully painted surface finish (including light airbrushing).
(b)  Separate control surfaces where these are not shown on the plan. Note that 5 is the maximum deduction; a lower figure may be awarded for a single-surface infringement.
(c)  Significantly increased, or reduced, dihedral (unless already penalised under ‘workmanship’).
(d)  Addition of a significant amount of detail (other than a pilot, which is not penalised).
(e)  Installation of artificial aids to stability other than manually adjustable trim tabs.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 03, 2018, 09:06:49 AM
Jon, I certainly don't want to pre-empt any judge's views on this, but as I understand it the whole 'stick to the plan' aspect of Kit Scale is there to ensure the less experienced or beginner modeller is not at a disadvantge against experts who can tweak the designs to make them fly better. So, in the case of substiting balsa for paper, perhaps the question should be, "Would the balsa substitution give you a flying advantage?" Sometimes, such as when it is used for rear decking for instance, or anywhere where weight-saving is crucial, I would think the answer would be "Yes". I've no idea what the actual penalty might be though, or if indeed there'd be any. I suspect it's a 'depends on the judge on the day' kind of scenario.

If it were me, I'd use balsa anywhere it pleased me as it'll probably look better whatever mark it gets.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 03, 2018, 09:18:20 AM
If it were me, I'd use balsa anywhere it pleased me as it'll probably look better whatever mark it gets.

Well said Pete - my sentiments entirely!

My reason for preferring very thin balsa over paper has nothing to do with improving the model's flying performance or overall appearance - its just that (in my fat-fingered experience) paper dents so easily and is tricky to push back from inside a tiny fuselage, making the model look progressively worse.  :o


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 03, 2018, 09:49:10 AM
This is one of the things that bug me about Kit Scale. It wouldn't bother me what was used for this kind of thing.
I would do away with penalties for making something better (including paint) ... just not score more points for it.
Eg. If a balsa version is executed as well as the stated paper then equal points.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 03, 2018, 10:22:18 AM
Eg. If a balsa version is executed as well as the stated paper then equal points.
That's a potential problem though, Russ, because it may be easier to achieve a well executed finish with balsa. But only if you have enough skill and experience to do it, and an old hand's confidence to deviate from the plan.

I think the best thing is to see the phenomenon of Kit Scale as something beautiful, but which we will never fully understand or control.  It's a bit like the weather for instance; just go with it, maybe carry an umbrella, and enjoy whatever fortune fate brings!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 03, 2018, 11:16:15 AM
Pete,
If it's easier to do then yes,  nibble the score down a bit.
My problem with it is that I primarily build scale models to enjoy them ... not exclusively for competition.
Use the example of my SE5 from the Aerographics kit. I did build that with the competition in mind but not necessarily how the kit is intended to be built. As many that have covered in brown tissue will know ... the tissue overlaps show a lot. As a result,  I have built a model that I am happy with as a kit scale competition model ... but not entirely happy with it as a rendition of a scale model kit.
I would love to do Dave Causer's Aerographics Camel for the kit scale comp ... but the rules would leave me with a model that I am not entirely satisfied with. Finishing it properly is more important to me.
Surely those that say that kit scale is an event not just for beginners will understand this?  :)



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on October 03, 2018, 01:29:05 PM
Just finish it as you see fit, whatever floats your boat.  Most of the points going are in the flying, and so as an expert you can get your points back in that end of the competition...

I like a tissue finish, for me it’s nostalgia, and I think figures quite a lot for a few in Kit scale (for novices and “experts” alike) over true scale fidelity.

The answer other than that is simple, build your model to a good standard, deviate from the kit and the kit scale rules, to make it a better representation of the real thing and enter in into open.

IIRC Graham Banham’s Tripacer won/placed on a number of occasions in kit scale and was fully painted...

As Jon knows, make it fly well and it will win, (you don’t have to barnstorm the pits though  ;D ;D ;D)

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 03, 2018, 02:43:27 PM
Andrew,
I have nothing against tissue finish ... I just think that some more sophisticated kits deserve the 'full treatment'.
As an advocate of kit scale as an event in its own right yourself ..  I am surprised to hear you point me in the direction of open. I still consider myself as an -intermediate' so it's still a big jump for me.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 03, 2018, 03:10:40 PM
Just to add .... the standard of flying in kit scale is very high. Jon made his model fly very, very well! ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 03, 2018, 03:24:07 PM
Good points Andrew, especially about flying points being worth 2/3rds of the total in KS, but there's no point in throwing away 5, 10 or even 15 static marks for silly things which can be easily avoided.  BTW I also like a predominately tissue finish... albeit with a dab of paint here or there to help lift appearances!  

Jon

PS What pits?  As far as I'm concerned, that was all Hunland!  :D

PPS Russ, just bang one out for next year's KS  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 03, 2018, 04:54:36 PM
Kit Scale, as is, ticks an awful lot of boxes for most of us. No class is going to suit all of its participants exactly, so you just have to take a best fit approach. If unsure, just build what you like and then decide whether to stick it in Kit Scale, Open, or both. It doesn't much matter unless you're desperate to win. All any of the spectators care about is whether it looks nice and flies well (and if it doesn't- never mind!)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on October 03, 2018, 05:10:49 PM
I always find this debate facinating. We also find kit scale well supported and so far there has been no pressure to change the rules. Our rules are the same as the BMFA indoor rules but we use then for outdoors as well and often use the same models but with more power. The view of the FF Scale SIG is that it is up to the modeller to make the decision as to what they want to add to a model and accept any penalty that may incurr. In some cases I have painted the model because I wanted and accept the hit. Some of us even fly our models in Open scale as well and are competitive as well as adding to the numbers.
Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 03, 2018, 05:38:21 PM
In 2008 I entered kit scale with a fully painted model.
I decided to take the hit and was happy to still be placed 1st in static, so I do understand the situation.
I'm only doing a bit of self trumpeting to emphasise that I would prefer to be able to fully finish a model and not gain anything for it ... but not to lose anything for it either.
I can easily live with the existing rules, but I would rather not have to make the decision of "build to the rules or build as I build?"


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on October 03, 2018, 06:03:17 PM
Andrew,
As an advocate of kit scale as an event in its own right yourself ..  I am surprised to hear you point me in the direction of open. I still consider myself as an -intermediate' so it's still a big jump for me.


I don’t think I was pointing you in any direction, it was just a general opinion ie there are classes to suit all.  My first statement (paint the model and to hell with it) was obviously what you exactly did by the sounds of it and it worked for you, so why not just do the same again?  I am sure that given your obvious skills that any points lost due to deviations and a painted finish are gained back in terms of workmanship and the “overall character” marks...

The choices remain the same, either follow the kit scale rules verbatim (as I do), deviate and take the hit, or deviate big time and enter open...

Andrew



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 03, 2018, 06:29:20 PM
Like I keep saying Andrew, I'm not as competition focused as some, so ideally I would like to build a model that satisfies me for both competition and just as a flying scale model.
Another example: my Sopwith Triplane did very well in static, but I hate the brown tissue overlaps on the top wing.
If there were yellow triplanes I would probably be happier in this respect!
It's only a minor bug .... it seems to be getting a bit blown out of proportion now.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 04, 2018, 03:28:22 AM

...so you just have to take a best fit approach. If unsure, just build what you like and then decide whether to stick it in Kit Scale, Open, or both.


Haha!  That sums up what's been going on for years with my proposed KS model - a problem par excellence of lack of direction!  It is the Lee's Hobbies Peanut scale Bristol Scout (adapted for CO2) I first started in 2013 (as my first model attempt in 35 years before realising I needed to re-skill with something a bit bigger), resumed briefly in 2015, again in 2017, then again earlier this year, now again again!  In all this time it's gone from being an aeroplane I just wanted to build, more recently to something I thought would serve adequately enough as my first attempt at Open CO2, now finally (because I've got something else considerably more suitable and interesting to me for Open CO2) my proposed 2019 Kit Scale model!

The photos below show the model's various incarnations over the years and illustrate the problems of lack of informed (i.e. read the rules!) decision.  Firstly the paper problem solved by balsa forward and stringers aft, then the doped and part-painted direction I was last heading in (until I realised that the painted areas were too dark and it was wrong to the scheme I liked but which lacked adequate documentation for Open), and also that I had lost the tissue I used on the fuselage and had nothing that would match for the wings!

So I've just stripped the whole lot off!  Now that I've firmly decided on KS, all that's left to resolve is can I keep the balsa decking (yes I will), what should I do with the rear stringers (just cover or replace with thin balsa sheet? probably the latter because it's all aero-modelling activity which is fun!), and how much detail to add?  Replacement proper diameter wheels and pilot are free, as are modifications I've done for CO2 power, basic rigging is essential and I'll stick on the tailplane struts (but no control-horns), and the pilot will need a paper instrument panel of course!

I enjoy all this stuff and the competition element provides the ideal focus.  Of course I'll strive to get the model finished as neatly as possible and with sufficient character etc, and then strive to get it flying to the best of my ability.   It is then completely in the lap of the gods where it comes in the list of also-rans... but fun I'm certainly having!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 04, 2018, 04:35:06 AM
Yes, lack of direction is an affliction for me too!

The model is looking great ... I admire you in going smaller when many are going bigger!
I look forward to seeing it purr around a hall in the near future.
What motor are you using?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 04, 2018, 06:04:03 AM
Hi Russ

Its the Gasparin G-28.

I don't know how fast or slow the little Scout will fly in practice.  AUW will be in the region of 20g and the wing area of 56in2 produces a loading of 0.35g/in2.  By comparison the Camel figs are 46g, 83in2 and 0.56g/in2 at which it flew with purpose but not too fast for its small scale. Without any proper knowledge of 'relative' aerodynamics or worrying about the actual differences in design of the two biplanes*, I've had a notion to compare the ratios of the wing area to loading of each model:

Wing areas:  Scout 56 / Camel 83 = 0.67
Loadings:  Scout 0.35 / Camel 0.56 = 0.63

from which I infer that the Scout should be slightly 'lighter' (6%) on a 'standardised' basis.

(*)  Of course the full size Scout was smaller (198 ft²), lighter (1195lbs) and had a lower wing-loading (6.0 lb/ft²) than the Camel (231 ft², 1453 lb, 6.3 lb/ft²).  Running the ratios shows that the Scout was 'lighter' (10%) on the same 'standardising' basis... which we all instinctively knew anyway!  ;D




Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 04, 2018, 07:04:30 AM
I've got a G-28 myself, but the only experience I have with it is when I converted my pistachio Pensuti triplane to CO2.
The only thing I can say is that the triplane weighs about 18g with 48 sq.in of wings and the motor would have taken it around nicely ... if it didn't roll into the ground with the limited stability


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on October 04, 2018, 07:52:01 AM
Back to the paper thing...

Jon have you tried using decent quality manilla envelope material in lieu of the normal "printer" paper?  It seems to soak up dope pretty well (which stiffens it), with the added bonus that when you cover it in tissue the colour tends to blend better with surrounding tissue due to its "woody" colour....

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 04, 2018, 08:21:19 AM
Russ - there you go!  Pick up a Lee's Hobby kit from SAMS (very nice trad kits without too many parts, and lots of interesting less-frequently modelled WW1 biplane to chose from) and pop your G-28 in that!  If its a Hun, then... we can have a proper small scale fight over the pits!  ;D

Andrew - that's not a bad idea for the rear decking (I'm NOT going to re-do the front decking again!), especially as there happened to be a BMFA envelope on my desk of just the right colour!  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 05, 2018, 06:08:59 PM
Jon,
I thought i had the Bristol Scout kit ... then realised I have the Nolan Aero peanut kit.
At one time i wondered why you weren’t using the pressed metal cowl!
I did have a Lee’s Hobbies kit or two at one time ... I remember re-gifting one into a raffle.
Not sure quite why now ... I liked the kit.
I was building a peanut for competition, but am tempted to use the g28 in it just for the love of flying ... a lot of my models seem to prefer this mode!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 06, 2018, 02:48:16 PM
"just for the love of flying"... perfect!   :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 06, 2018, 02:59:01 PM
I do seem to have my best flying when alone .... honest!
Were I to enter kit scale again I think my 'weapon of choice' would be the VMC Sopwith Triplane with a gm120. My DPC triplane of 15.5" span flew well at Peterborough with a gm63 but needed full power. At Nottingham I was having reverse starts and ended up popping my ball trying to get enough power.  I can see the vmc and gm120 being a better combination? (Dan would know more than me)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on October 06, 2018, 03:12:32 PM
I ended up popping my ball trying to get enough power.

Did you say that in a Kenneth Williams voice?  Please say you did...

If so, I would like to say “ohhhh Maaatron”

https://coub.com/view/balbj

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 06, 2018, 03:27:08 PM
Maybe slightly more of a Frankie Howerd!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on October 06, 2018, 04:23:37 PM
True!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 07, 2018, 03:03:50 AM
I do seem to have my best flying when alone .... honest!
Were I to enter kit scale again I think my 'weapon of choice' would be the VMC Sopwith Triplane with a gm120. My DPC triplane of 15.5" span flew well at Peterborough with a gm63 but needed full power. At Nottingham I was having reverse starts and ended up popping my ball trying to get enough power.  I can see the vmc and gm120 being a better combination? (Dan would know more than me)

That sounds about right.  The 63 is perfect in my VMC Camel, but assume the Tripehound has more wing area and drag.  You'll need weight in the nose anyway, and its always better to be able to throttle back for longer flights - whether alone or in company!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on October 07, 2018, 07:52:46 AM
I have one underway at the moment for just that conversion! It means a lot of messing about to get the prop in the right place, but it should come together ok...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on October 07, 2018, 10:39:22 AM
Gents

To report back from yesterday's STC meeting, where new rules, corrections or additions were agreed.
re Indoor FF Kit Scale.

150% enlargements of original sized KS models will be allowed in the competition.
However, the burden of proof that it was indeed actually made as a full or a short kit at that size will lie with the competitor to add into his documentation.

A new paragraph to that effect will be added to the BMFA Scale rule book for next year and will be available as usual early in the new year.

Regards John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 07, 2018, 02:18:28 PM
Jon,
The triplane has given me flights of about a minute .... the gm63 is a lovely motor when used within its limits :-)
Dan,
 I knew I had seen you post that you were trying the same combo. I know you won't underestimate the amount of thrust adjustment needed!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 07, 2018, 02:28:00 PM
Back in 2005 the first outing for my first gm63 was in this Ebenezer ... flat plate and over 50g, it flew surprisingly well in the right conditions.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Monz on October 07, 2018, 02:39:16 PM
Gents

To report back from yesterday's STC meeting, where new rules, corrections or additions were agreed.
re Indoor FF Kit Scale.

150% enlargements of original sized KS models will be allowed in the competition.
However, the burden of proof that it was indeed actually made as a full or a short kit at that size will lie with the competitor to add into his documentation.

A new paragraph to that effect will be added to the BMFA Scale rule book for next year and will be available as usual early in the new year.

Regards John M

Hi John, that's a bit ambiguous.

The bit in red suggests that decision is in line with outdoor kit scale, where any kit plan may be enlarged to 150%.

The bit in blue goes back to the original discussion of 150% kits, which are available, eligible and therefore don't need any proof.

So basically the STC decision is just to allow a kit that a manufacturer has enlarged and re-boxed.

I almost got excited there!



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 07, 2018, 02:43:57 PM
Monz,
Put more eloquently than my version of a similar question!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 07, 2018, 04:00:05 PM
Thanks, John, both for raising the issue with the STC and for getting back to us. I must say, I thought you were fairly UNambiguous: the message I took was, yes, the 150% models are fine for indoor KS so long as they were once kitted in that form, and I can show evidence to that effect. The only thing I’m still not quite clear about is whether I need to submit a plan from an actual 150% kit, with altered wood sizes etc. specified, or whether I can get away with just blowing up a standard size KK or Veron plan I’ve already got and submitting that with a website pic of the 150% Replikit box?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Graham Banham on October 07, 2018, 05:46:35 PM
Pete,

I would suggest you need the Replikit plan or a copy of same with the revised wood sizes if thats what was included in the 150% kit. The fact that the structure is unchanged from the original KK or Veron kit is irrelevant: treat it as an entirely separate design. As such, if the plan was amended by Replikit, a blow up of the original KK or Veron item isn’t suitable.

Sounds like i’m splitting hairs, and in a sense maybe that’s true, but it all forms part of documentation by any other name in support of an entry.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 07, 2018, 06:38:50 PM
I totally agree, Graham. The 'kit plan' has to mean the plan for that kit, and nothing else, or the water gets very muddy and impossible for the judges. Really then, as Monz points out, there is no need for a rule amendment (just a confirmation that the Replikit 150 kits are fine, which is probably all the extra paragraph will be).


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on October 07, 2018, 07:36:06 PM
Sorry Monz I should have included your good self with the Gents opening.

Just to try and clear this up once and for all.

Because not all of the original kits were enlarged to 150% size by Replikit, VMC (or any other manufaturer).
ONLY those that can be proven to have been enlarged and commercially offered for sale by Replikit or AN Other manufacturer will be allowed (full & short kits).

That means you cannot blow up any old KK or Veron or Comet etc. original kit that was not comercially offered for sale at that 150% enlarged size.

Pete, KS rules say to provide the original plan for documentation - some of the 'Replikit' and 'Physics of Flight' kits just used blown up original KK (or other) plans, with no wood sizes altered and no manufacturers printed block, or stamp.  So you cannot identify that it was offered as a kit with just the plan (now at 150% size).
Some were altered and stamped up with the new manufacturers name.

So to prevent any issues for the poor hard pressed KS judges, the competitor has to provide additional proof that it actually was kitted at 150% size.
This can take the form of the kit box, an advert, a web page or a statement from the manufacturer, as long as it is proper proof.
If the drawing is re-dimensioned with Replikit or VMC etc. also on it, then clearly that is OK just with the plan.

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on October 07, 2018, 07:58:34 PM
John,
        Thank you for that clarification because we can now piggy back this into our rules. It may save us a difficult situation from those who want to push the boundaries.
 We use the same rules for outdoor kit scale so it has even more relavance.
Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 08, 2018, 03:37:03 AM
Pete, KS rules say to provide the original plan for documentation - some of the 'Replikit' and 'Physics of Flight' kits just used blown up original KK (or other) plans, with no wood sizes altered and no manufacturers printed block, or stamp.  So you cannot identify that it was offered as a kit with just the plan (now at 150% size).
Some were altered and stamped up with the new manufacturers name.

So to prevent any issues for the poor hard pressed KS judges, the competitor has to provide additional proof that it actually was kitted at 150% size.
This can take the form of the kit box, an advert, a web page or a statement from the manufacturer, as long as it is proper proof.
If the drawing is re-dimensioned with Replikit or VMC etc. also on it, then clearly that is OK just with the plan.

Thanks again, John. I know you have far better things to do than coming on here explaining every last detail of the KS rules, but I for one am now super clear on this whole issue. I suppose I really ought to enter a 150% kit build now if only to justify all the trouble you've gone to!

 (With previous queries on whether lozenge pattern tissue can be printed off from CDs provided with the kit, and also the matter of how ski u/cs are judged, I'm a bit worried I'm getting a reputation as the awkward s*d of Kit Scale! I'm not doing it on purpose though!)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 08, 2018, 03:56:53 AM
Where would we all be Pete if no-one ever leaned against the boundaries?!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 08, 2018, 04:06:09 AM
Where would we all be Pete if no-one ever leaned against the boundaries?!  ;D

Well, depending on one's view I suppose the answer is either...

 "In a nice sunny Garden of Eden with no worries at all."

Or

"Shivering in a cave with no means to catch or cook the mammoths right outside our door."


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 08, 2018, 04:11:00 AM
Oi, there's nothing wrong with my cave!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 08, 2018, 04:14:19 AM
Nor mine, Russ. I'm not one to push boundaries for the sake of it. As Sheldon Cooper said, "It's called a comfort zone for a reason!"  :D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 08, 2018, 04:22:49 AM
 ;D .... everyone should live their lives like Sheldon.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on October 08, 2018, 05:38:02 AM
Ricky
You're welcome mate, glad it will be helpful.

Jon(Jack Plane)
Quote
Where would we all be Pete if no-one ever leaned against the boundaries?!
Well I for one wouldn't have spent 7.5 hours driving and 8 hours on Saturday in an STC meeting.
The STC needs some new volunteers Jon.............................

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on October 08, 2018, 05:49:47 AM
I can relate to that John. Our FFand Control line SIG has been the same for over 30 years. We reguarly offer to step down but there are not enough of us inany othe rplace to take over. The downside of being a small nation.
Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on October 08, 2018, 12:43:09 PM
Thanks again, John. Your hours sacrificed to the cause are much appreciated!
Here's a list of the Replikit 150-percenters, gleaned from pages 7 and 8 of a Replikit catalogue found on the ever-useful RCgroups site here: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=2502564 (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=2502564)

REPLIKIT 150 SERIES
Veron
Luscombe Sedan
Auster AOP 9
Chipmunk
Fokker D8
Hawker Fury
Hurricane
Tiger Moth
Keil Kraft
Mustang
Percival Provost
Seamew
Focke Wulf 190
Tempest

I think I'll probably do the KK Provost myself, which looks a bit woody in the original dimensions but would be a nice model at this bigger size. This 'bigger size', in most of these cases, is about 27" span. Replikit no longer exists of course, but some (not all) of these large versions are still marketed by VMC, available from them both as kits or just plans.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on October 08, 2018, 01:55:48 PM
I was going to say that I hope that someone makes one of these models after the efforts made ... Pete’s post beats me to it.
I will add to this by trying to get one of these models made.
I’ve mentioned my childhood visits to the Auster/Taylorcraft factory airfield before .... and it being the first aircraft my dad flew in ... so I’ll commit myself to this from the off!
Not even looked at the kit yet!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: vintagemike on October 08, 2018, 02:06:23 PM
Hi Pete, just to muddy the water a bit with your Replikit list I bought an FW190 kit off Fleabay about a year ago. This one had one of the previous range of kits in it, the ones that Doug McHard was chasing about for in the 1990,s. It was detailed on the listing as such (that's why I bought it) so did replikit do the others (Tempest, Typhoon, Spitfire, Zero are ones I can remember he found and built) or did I get a "cut and shut"? (I think we had reference to Arfur Daily once before didn't we?)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on October 08, 2018, 04:44:47 PM
Pete

It wasn't just myself of course - there are a number of other people who willingly give their time, Mike Stuart and Andy Sephton to name just two others.

Ricky

Yes it seems to be a problem not just in modelling (trying to get people onto a committee) we have the same issues in the classic car and bike clubs I know.

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on October 10, 2018, 09:57:22 AM
Seems fair enough.  If you want to enter KS then you entry has to be a model that was kitted - be it an original or a rehash subsequently at a different size that was kitted.  And it is for you to demonstrate that it was kitted at whatever size you have chosen to build it.  So nothing really has changed much has it?  Clearly it is prudent to ensure that your evidence that it was kitted is sound.  And that again is up to you so don’t squeak if the Judges (who must have the final say) are not happy. But then no one does do they.  I wonder what it is that makes our band so agreeable?b


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 27, 2018, 03:38:42 AM
Been making good progress with the Scout recently - including completely new wings with neater under-cambered ribs.  I've also made peace with the few minor disconnects between the rules and how I want my Scout to look (and what I don't want to re-do again!) and the net result is a model that is close to strictly compliant if not completely so.  But I hope it'll have plenty of 'character' to compensate... and I bloody well hope it'll fly nicely!   :o

Piccie below of Perry (Neville's cousin on his mum's side) after first stage carving.  Not yet decided what colour scarf he'll be wearing on the day...  ;D



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on October 31, 2018, 07:07:52 AM
Skin and roundels on.  Have since added weight (aluminium coloured acrylic paint) and some inked pretend-details in the cowl area, and made a forward-firing Vickers gun for Perry after I found a B&W photo of a synchronised setup.

Did think about entering this for KS at Nijmegen, but even if its completed by next week it won't have ever flown, so I'm playing safe and have my now banished Camel entered instead.  But I'll take the Scout along anyway - just to see how it flies!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: TheLurker on October 31, 2018, 03:19:11 PM
Nice.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on October 31, 2018, 07:57:25 PM
Very neat covering on the Bristol.

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Squirrelnet on November 01, 2018, 03:00:14 AM
Scout is looking great Jon, good luck with the trimming

Chris


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on November 01, 2018, 03:49:43 AM
That's looking great Jon  :)

Is that Perry Stalsis? I've heard that some found his antics hard to swallow .....


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on November 01, 2018, 04:01:13 AM
Cheers guys.  The covering is by no means perfect, especially as I had to use dope on the under-cambered ribs but combined this with UHU/PVA for the wing outlines (should have stuck to dope all round?), but the overall impression is all right and there are no obvious warps.  Roundels etc are my usual doped tissue which, despite being less crisp and cunning than shiny decals, seem to give the model an overall coherence in terms of texture.

As I said earlier, I've bottled entering the Scout into KS at Nijmegen next week although I'm aiming to complete it in time and take it along to test fly if I get the chance.  Will post a few more pics once it is all assembled and rigged and with Perry painted and strapped in.

The VMC Camel is my official entry, which, although in the end did alright at the Nats, still has unfinished business in Holland........!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on November 01, 2018, 04:03:59 AM
That's looking great Jon  :)

Is that Perry Stalsis? I've heard that some found his antics hard to swallow .....

Yes, that's the chap!  His excuse is that it's all caused by the excessive castor oil thrown out by his rotary engine....  :D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on November 01, 2018, 05:26:38 AM
Agree with the others; the Scout’s looking lovely, Jon. Your models definitely have a certain finish and ‘look’ to them that adds a lot to their overall impression. I think they may even capture the elusive kit scale ‘character’ points!

Good luck with the Camel at Nijmegen. ‘Unfinished business’ as you say!
My top tip for Neville this time: avoid sneaky extra test flights unless you’re SURE the sky is clear. You don’t want to spark an international incident!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on November 01, 2018, 06:03:05 AM
 :o OMG no international incidents!!  :o


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: ffscale on November 01, 2018, 06:19:17 AM
After breaking all the wings off the big Blackburn Shark at Oxford a few weeks ago I needed a new kit scale entry for Nijmegen.  I decided to do a quick build of the VMC Cessna Bird Dog.  The quality was well up to the expected standard, and it was a breeze to build - everything fitted perfectly and the laser cutting was a real time saver.  I didn't change anything on the design except filling in between stringers with soft balsa in front of the windshield and replacing the paper patterns for the window frames and the panel above the wing centre section with 10 thou plastic card.  Two reasons for this – firstly with an airbrushed finish, plastic card gives a smoother finish than paper and secondly I wanted to attach the glazing with Formula 560 canopy glue, and this water-based adhesive would have caused local swelling of the paper.  The airbrushed finish will lose me a few points in static judging, but I did it anyway.  Markings are home-made decals apart from the large U.S. ARMY titles on the wing which are cut from black painted decal sheet and applied in sections.

I couldn't resist adding a few extra details to add more character, so the avionics hump and aerial behind the cabin, some extra struts inside the cabin and the exhausts under the cowl.  The complete build took me 17 days, which is something of a record for me.

Weight is 28 grams without rubber – I’m hoping it will only require a touch of nose weight.  I will be trimming at Nijmegen - Andrew had the prototype flying superbly at the Indoor Scale Nats so I'm hoping mine will do the same.

Mike S


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on November 01, 2018, 06:24:03 AM
Beautiful, Mike!

(Seventeen days?! *sobs in despair*)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on November 01, 2018, 06:34:48 AM
That is so very nice, Mike.  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: billdennis747 on November 01, 2018, 07:29:10 AM
I'm sitting here doing 4 projects at once and now I want one of those too. A nicer scheme than the green. Are the decals hand cut or computered?
But my record is 5 days for a diesel eindecker; it didn't look like that, though


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on November 01, 2018, 07:33:27 AM
my record is 5 days for a diesel eindecker; it didn't look like that, though

It would have been an odd sort of Eindecker if it had.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: ffscale on November 01, 2018, 08:31:21 AM
Hi Dan,

Apart from the large wing lettering, decals were laser printed onto clear decal film.  I used the decal artwork from the Roden 1/32 scale plastic kit for the fin serial and fuselage lettering.  I can send the jpgs over if you like.  The Stars and Bars artwork was downloaded from the VMC website - I love that you can download markings and paper pattern sheets from there for all the Magnificent Flying Machine range to avoid cutting the plan up.

Mike S


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on November 01, 2018, 10:18:57 AM
That looks very smart Mike.

I'm a fan of adding the odd, carefully chosen small detail to KS type models (e.g. inked-on cowling panel lines, a pretend exhaust-pipe, etc) while steering clear of the fine detail expected and rewarded in Open (e.g. scale pitot tubes, masterpiece instrument panels, etc).  I reckon a handful of these minor, almost amateur-looking things are well within the spirit of KS - I was certainly weighing down my KK and Veron models with loads of scale extras when I was twelve!  They're fun to do and certainly add, lightly at least, to the overall impression of the subject aeroplane.  Any minor penalties incurred would hopefully be outweighed by extra points for character.  :)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DavidJP on November 01, 2018, 04:17:39 PM
Oh so nice Mike!  I think that is very fair comment Jon....I always felt that adding bit of detail in my formative years put my stamp on the model I had built and set it a lilltle apart from those of some of my peers.   But the KS event is a remarkably relaxed affair,  so al will be well.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Squirrelnet on November 01, 2018, 04:45:21 PM
As the others have said - that's a beautiful model, very smart. Good luck at Nijmegen


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on November 05, 2018, 04:09:01 PM
The Bristol Scout is finally done, and for good order I've put the piccies of the completed model on the last page of its own build thread: http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=19935.msg232899#msg232899 (http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=19935.msg232899#msg232899) but will pop one in here anyway.  ;D

Taking it to Nijmegen - not entered in anything, but a lovely big hall for some trimming fun.

Jon


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on February 10, 2019, 09:07:14 AM
After a good long period of sulking, two hours of Cyano, Special Brew and some robust Anglo-Saxon language saw the Gipsy largely patched up. Damage is never as bad as it looks...

I took the opportunity to induce a little washin on the port lower wing whilst it was free. It was a tightening turn that caused the trouble in the first place!

One more Alfreton meeting before the Nats, fingers crossed!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on February 10, 2019, 03:14:30 PM
Well done Dan!  I had wondered where you'd been..?   ;D

But don't worry, my own contender for April firstly proved to be under-powered with the G-28BB Nijmegen trim flight (https://photos.app.goo.gl/LcaWJ8Na7A6Jf7xA7) then got a jolly good thrashing when it flew straight into a wall.  Mended the shattered struts etc and the next pre-Nats job is to fit a G-43BB and re-start trim flights all over again - but outside at first once the weather improves!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on February 10, 2019, 04:25:40 PM
Great news, Dan. Kit Scale needs you (and your big CO2 powered beauties) there! Make sure you round up some catchers at Alfreton.

My own original plan was to enter my big Dumas Eindecker, but after a mixed outdoor season involving quite a few repairs last year it’s looking a bit tatty now so I think I’ll just keep it for outdoors. Plan B then is to dust off my VMC SE5. Never actually flown it in the UK nats and it usually goes quite well these days, so I should be able to restrict most of my panicking to my PT-3’s Open Rubber flights instead.

What’s everyone else entering in KS I wonder? (Can anyone top Rich’s P-38 Lightning for sheer bravery?)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on February 11, 2019, 02:55:32 AM
You'd got the SE going really well last time I saw it at Alfreton. I'm hoping I'll get chance to try the Gipsy outside before the next indoor sesh. Not very likely at this time of year... Oh well.

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on February 11, 2019, 05:03:31 AM
P.S If Rich M does indeed show up with a big Lightning, I will be doing the full Wayne's World "We are not worthy!!" in front of his table!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on February 25, 2019, 08:53:35 PM
Had another look at the Gipsy repairs and realised with despair that whilst it was back together; the upper wings were no longer parallel to the lower! I knew repairing with Mr. Special Brew wasn't wise... It was only a couple of degrees, but enough to be annoying. Broke all my careful repairs and all is now straight and true(ish)… Silver Esaki'd a length of 1/16" sq. In case a Gurney strip is called for on the 23rd!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: vintagemike on February 26, 2019, 04:30:18 AM
Dan did you use the Special Brew to glue the wings on, attach the covering or dope the wings!!!!? 


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on February 26, 2019, 10:41:50 AM
Nearly all three!

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on February 26, 2019, 03:36:37 PM
Dan, if the wings looked straight when you were topped up with Special Brew then why redo the repairs? Surely it's much simpler to just down some more Special Brews and have another look.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Rich Moore on February 26, 2019, 04:06:23 PM
It is seeming like a good strategy to 'sit back' whilst everyone else builds early and smashes their models whilst getting some sneaky, not the night before, trimming in. Whilst you are busy repairing your models, I am organising my garage and preparing my new workspace. With a bit of luck, by the time you are trimming the second time around, I should have actually started cutting wood. I am on course for the usual Saturday night, before the nats, initial flights - I have stuck the plan pages together for the fuselage... and...I have sat in the garden pondering how I could build retracting undercarriage. I have a cunning plan...

Quote
Can anyone top Rich’s P-38 Lightning for sheer bravery?
bravery,  stupidity, madness - perhaps. I just like to build what I like.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: SP250 on February 26, 2019, 04:25:20 PM
Well just to confuse the issue of trimming the night before the Nats........

I have finally managed to get the licence for indoor flying at RAF Shawbury.
There are two club dates before the FF Nats which you guys are welcome to come along to and do some early pre nats trimming, as this year we are not having a Peterborough Bushfields date due to lack of support over the last couple of years.

Ordinarily the Indoor RC nats at Shawbury would also be used, but of course that was postponed due to the licence issues.  Rescheduled for May 12th.
Club dates are March 24th and April 14th - 1.00pm till 4.00pm.

John M


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on March 03, 2019, 02:57:56 PM
Breaking News...

The Kid has just expressed a desire to complete his VMC Jodel and enter as a Junior!  :)

I'd packed away the almost complete bones after he'd lost momentum a while ago, but we got the shoe-box out this evening and he's now studied the plans and instructions again and prepared a list of remaining jobs to do.

In the meantime he's almost completed his second rocket - a 1m high monster that takes a mother of a motor - but I don't think the ceiling at Walsall is quite high enough for him to demonstrate...  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Squirrelnet on March 03, 2019, 03:01:38 PM
Nice one Issac. So is that Jack Plane and Junior Plane ?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on March 03, 2019, 03:05:56 PM
Sounds like patience has been rewarded and you are to be commended for the patience showed. I have an untrimmed Jodel waiting so you may have motivated me to get going. I look forward to seeing the results.
Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on March 03, 2019, 03:51:15 PM
Nice one Issac. So is that Jack Plane and Junior Plane ?

Perhaps it should be Jack-plane and Block-plane, but that's maybe a little unfair on him... so I'll just stick with Little Rocket Man for the time being!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on March 03, 2019, 06:00:19 PM
Good one Jack - I'm sure he will have loads of fun.

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on March 04, 2019, 02:06:44 AM

I have an untrimmed Jodel waiting so you may have motivated me to get going.

Ricky

Go Ricky!  Any pics?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on March 06, 2019, 02:44:47 PM
The difference eighteen months makes...

He's now determined to do it all on his own - not that I previously did anything more than guide him, just that he now wants ownership of the whole process, planning, making and all.

 :D



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on March 06, 2019, 03:19:10 PM
Great stuff .... get 'em 'ooked!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: TheLurker on March 06, 2019, 03:33:32 PM
Good to see No. 1 Apprentice back at the bench.  Pass on my regards.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on March 07, 2019, 03:53:46 PM
The photo of the Jodel is attached. It is still awaiting outddor trimming. I tried some initial flights at our indoor hall and decided it was a bit risky. I just need a little less wind. The weight is 21 grams including rubber, and the noseblock is held in with magnets.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on March 07, 2019, 05:55:10 PM
Looking very nice in the sunlight, Ricky. 21g sounds alright too.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on March 07, 2019, 06:19:04 PM
Excellent work on your apprentice Jack. Ricky's nice shot of his model in the sun should be an inspiration.

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on March 07, 2019, 07:38:27 PM
My Jodel has been stuck in it's box for around 3 years. I keep forgetting about it! I must take it to the next Alfreton bash and finally get it trimmed. All I have to do is try and remember what it was doing last time out...

Lovely little design and some nice finished (And being finished!) examples on here!

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on March 07, 2019, 10:12:33 PM
Dan,
        I can empathise with that sentiment. Look forward to hearing how it goes.  I have finall resorted to a log book of sorts when I remember to note things down. It certainly helps on rubber size as I like to strip a variety of sizes and maintain an even number of strands for braiding if needed. By the way the heavens have opened after about 6 weeks without rain but a nice summer.
 Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on March 08, 2019, 02:35:57 AM
Ricky, very nice Jodel and excellent weight for VMC model! Nice sunshine too!

We've got a westerly airflow over the British Isles - the sort that parks itself and doesn't move for a long time - but its still late winter, the earth needs the rain, deadwood needs blowing down, and I'm on a work deadline so can do without any excuses to skive off for outdoor trimming or slope soaring!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on April 21, 2019, 03:45:53 PM
A jolly intense week guiding the Kid (organising, demonstrating, cajoling, bollocking, hugging, encouraging, giving lots of breaks) to complete his VMC Jodel in time to maiden in today's superb trimming weather - the pressure was on as tomorrow onwards forecast to be meteorological business as usual.

Making started in Summer 2017 when he got bones made, but was then put away and he only got going again a few weeks' ago when he decided he was going to have a go at the Nats!  :o

Footage here of one of the early trim flights on 3/16" rubber (185 thou) 1.5 x hook to peg: https://photos.app.goo.gl/iBgL623jfjG5L3zy6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/iBgL623jfjG5L3zy6)

550 turns (50% of max/break) will do 15secs from hand-launch, but this feels slightly too aggressive and really think we ought to prepare a similar length of 160 thou for the Indoor Nats next weekend.

Weighs in at about 35g (27.5 airframe + 3.5 rubber + 5 nose-lead), a loading of about 0.56g/sq in so not too bad for a big indoor space...?

Jon



Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on April 21, 2019, 04:05:57 PM
He really wanted to do a good job - including moulding a balsa cowling! - all with a broken arm courtesy of the school ski trip  :o

We doped in the back of the car with all the doors open and a breeze blowing.

The pilot is his dog (at his mum's house)!  ;D


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: TheLurker on April 21, 2019, 04:28:41 PM
Flies better than anything I've ever built.  Well done to the No. 1 Apprentice.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: DHnut on April 21, 2019, 06:41:57 PM
The Jodel also looks promising as well. I am using .130" for the initial trim flights and it looks promising with a total weight of 21.5 gm but may need a little more . I have also had to add weight to get the CG right. There was a need to get a warp out of the cetre section, now done. We have just had a magic morning yesterday with no wind flying Cloud Tramps.
Ricky


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on April 21, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
Very fine effort indeed! Looking forward to seeing it in action.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Ex Member on April 22, 2019, 06:29:20 AM
Boy done good!  ;D

Andrew


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on April 22, 2019, 08:28:13 AM
Thanks guys - I'll pass on your comments!  :)

Made a new motor from 165 thou as the 185 seemed a bit too aggressive, and managed to get out early this morning for brief tests before the wind piped up.  Gentler flights but still a reasonable initial climb etc on 65% of max/breakage turns.  Needed to reduce right-thrust (was 3º previously) to compensate and keep the circle respectable, and also needed to assert a tad more down-thrust.  Gentle gliding turn seems fine and model appears to have reasonable enough longitudinal stability.

We'd glued the rudder on with a very slight left angle, but the model needs a proper card tab to nail the turn.  A gurney along the underside TE of the left tip plus another one the same length just inboard of this seemed to do the trick of keeping the inner wing up.

Had to curtail the session when the breeze established itself more fully (those upturned tips really catch the wind!) but I think we're good with the 165 and we can finalise trims and hopefully put it all together indoors at Walsall next Saturday afternoon!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on April 22, 2019, 09:39:10 PM
Your apprentice has done a great job on the Jodel Jack and it flies well. You've done a good job training him - well done.

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: danmellor on April 28, 2019, 05:28:05 PM
That's it over for another year! Great day, even though I didn't manage to enter anything this year. Some superb models and flying and a big thanks to the organisers...

Cheers,

Dan.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: FreeFlightModeller on April 28, 2019, 06:18:56 PM
As you say Dan, great day.  :)

I was happy to have timed all the open and kit scale flights today and the red cross, non-qualifying flight paddle didn't get much use.


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on April 28, 2019, 06:43:37 PM
Fab day!

Only got vids of our own flights - me and the Kid - and think Chris will have a fuller set on YouTube, but here are some of ours, the Scout finally out on patrol, Isaac's Jodel which he was absolutely thrilled to compete with (a bit stressy for dad to get trimmed but we nailed it in the end), and my brand new Peanut Halberstadt D.II (which is just at the very beginning of its trimming journey really!):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xEingYNRzBMLf31k7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/xEingYNRzBMLf31k7)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZWCWoP7nkbcV98MGA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZWCWoP7nkbcV98MGA)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mi1htKwbq1YGcr5k6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/mi1htKwbq1YGcr5k6)

And yes, a huge thanks to the organisers!!


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on April 29, 2019, 09:17:50 PM
Nice flights Jack. The Bristol finally tamed and all the flights looked good. The Jodel looks nice - a good effort from your son and there is more performance there I feel. The Halberstadt seems to only need the slightest extra downthrust , although it still did very well.

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on April 30, 2019, 04:19:04 AM
Cheers John

Yes, there's more to come from the Jodel.  3/16" is roughly the right grunt, but needs to be split into something like two loops of 3/32" to dampen the initial burst (cured on the day by winding then backing-off an extra 50 turns), and increase its length from 1.5 to 2.0x distance for a more satisfying duration.  I'm certainly thrilled for Isaac, who's well made-up by his own achievement and participation!

The Halberstadt did nicely enough in 'prototype' form, but needs a few measures to get it properly fit for duty at the front:

  • Move the peg forward an inch to the cross position, so it doesn't have to carry so much nose-weight, but keep the motor length the same - currently 1/8" (125 thou) 3.0x distance to existing peg-position, so will end up being about 3.5x or so, hope to get away without a bobbin!
  • Increase the prop size and blade area as currently losing huge amounts of rubber energy, still loads of clearance for ROG, experiment with pitch etc
  • Increase down-thrust to match these changes

The kit plan showed zero incidence on both wings.  I took a punt and built in 2.5º for the top wing and 1.5º for the bottom (same as the Scout).  As can be seen in the video, the 1º differential certainly tames the stall albeit at some cost to performance, but the overall degree of incidence of both wings might explain its excessive pitch-up tendency..?  There's a limit to how much down-thrust I can put in without the hook jamming under the dummy engine, so am considering de-bonding the whole lot and re-setting the wings at 1.5º and 1.0º respectively?  Or maybe just experiment with down-elevator trim first!?

I've got a comprehensive set of build photos, and wondering whether to do a full build-thread.  Would people like this?


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: OZPAF on April 30, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
I'm certainly no expert in this area Jon but perhaps the Jodel would do well on slightly lighter rubber, with a wider turn for indoors anyway. Certainly a longer motor. However the owner/builder has the last  say in this area :) Great effort.

The Halberstadt is flying so well and it seems that your incidence setup is working. It would be interesting to see how lower incidence settings would work. Actually if it is relatively easy to change the tail it may be best to add a bit of positive incidence(very small) to trim the model to fly at a lower AOA, while still retaining the difference between the 2 wings. This would also add some down thrust effectively and may need the CG moved back slightly to regain the glide?

It may be worth trying this with a tab on the tail, slightly deflected downwards to see if this would help.

Also yes I would like to see your build on the model.

John


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Squirrelnet on May 01, 2019, 02:12:44 AM
Quote
I've got a comprehensive set of build photos, and wondering whether to do a full build-thread.  Would people like this?

I would love to see how you put it together Jon, you can't build a nice build thread


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on May 01, 2019, 06:37:41 AM

The Halberstadt is flying so well and it seems that your incidence setup is working. It would be interesting to see how lower incidence settings would work. Actually if it is relatively easy to change the tail it may be best to add a bit of positive incidence(very small) to trim the model to fly at a lower AOA, while still retaining the difference between the 2 wings. This would also add some down thrust effectively and may need the CG moved back slightly to regain the glide?

It may be worth trying this with a tab on the tail, slightly deflected downwards to see if this would help.


I think you're probably quite right John.  If tweaking the elevator does the trick (along with down-thrust and CG changes), then that's an awful lot easier than de-bonding the wings!

Long-term, the Halberstadt is probably going to be a KS model rather than a competitive Peanut class one - so stability and realism of flight needs to be retained.

Started a build thread here:  https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=24238.0 (https://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=24238.0)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Pete Fardell on May 01, 2019, 06:56:45 AM
Jon, on your Halberstadt build thread, would you prefer to put the whole thing on altogether without any interruptions, or are you happy for us to chip in with queries between your posts? (Just asking before I wreck it.)


Title: Re: Kit Scale 2019 Models
Post by: Jack Plane on May 01, 2019, 07:09:12 AM
Pete

Thanks for asking, but - as you guys know me by now - I always treat my own threads as open conversations, so totally welcome comments and contributions.  Do chip in... no need to leave crowbars and wrecking-balls by the door!  ;D

Jon