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Outdoor Free Flight Forum => Proven Techniques in building, trimming and flying models => Topic started by: spliffsecond on April 29, 2018, 08:14:58 AM



Title: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on April 29, 2018, 08:14:58 AM
Gentleman,

I build a 16" piper pacer in anticipation of flying my Se5a.
She's build with 1/32" balsa and textile transfers.

Since this is my very first flying model the start is a bit ruff

https://youtu.be/PeNVEg7DdKU (https://youtu.be/PeNVEg7DdKU)

I read a lot and tried a few things and it already went better,
but the wind was picking up and to strong for the model

https://youtu.be/qgBrYBMngKA (https://youtu.be/qgBrYBMngKA)

I had lost fate in the piper when after the last posted flight's I went out two times and had no luck at all at repeating what I had.

After carefull inspection I finally found the stab to be skewed and twisted ever the slightliest. So I made a new stab I removed all previous trimming and remade the broken struds, glued the wing, I had broken while I stumbled in the field  ::) and look now

https://youtu.be/lqR4gpWEEb4 (https://youtu.be/lqR4gpWEEb4)

This is 600 turns on a 12" loop of 3/16" tan rubber,
I also like my new flying field, it's a bit masochistic with all the trees, but they give a nice cover for wind.

https://youtu.be/GpmPVmFniW4 (https://youtu.be/GpmPVmFniW4)

this is  a bad launch with 700 turns

https://youtu.be/7b8KIhEC8uc (https://youtu.be/7b8KIhEC8uc)

and this is the rest of the turns, I like her slow stable flightpath

https://youtu.be/FKdhJbrIOhQ (https://youtu.be/FKdhJbrIOhQ)

this is a good flight with 700 turns, I think she hit a branch because all of a sudden she spirals in.

the only trimming I had to do was a little clay on the right wingtip to make a tighter turn. Since I made a 1mm triplex nose mount I didn't even had to add balast to the nose, she just balanced perfectly. I made the stab out of very light 0,8 mm balsa. I used shellac to seal the stab so he could not warp again.

Now I need to get my flight time up, what do you guy's suggest?
I was thinking along the lines of :
A little up elevator for higher climb
Replace the (heavy) clay on the right wing by a mylar trim tab balsa gurney strip
New motor configuration.
I have no clue here so it would be nice to hear something about the size motor I can put in this 16" span. It turns a 6" peck propellor (straight out of the package, not balanced)
By the way I only have 3/16" rubber at the moment, I would like to buy some more rubber but am a bit lost as to what I will need.

grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Jack Plane on April 29, 2018, 11:24:32 AM
Just replied to your previous post, but will repeat it here:

That's a great start you've made Free - SE5a looks lovely!

Trimming can be seen as a real art (and I'm only a relative novice myself), but it can actually be broken down into a set of basic mechanical principles:

A - Build everything as true and square and light as possible - heaviness and/or warps in flying surfaces will make everything much harder.

B - Trim for non-powered flight:
(i) Test glide (free-wheeling prop or better still low turns on the rubber to negate drag) to establish centre of gravity and wing and tailplane incidences are basically correct.
(ii) Slight rudder to establish a yaw, so that the model circles (left or right, but I and most others choose left).
(iii) Any tendency for the yaw to roll model in can be corrected with either a small down-tab on the inner wing or a small up-tab on the outer wing, and/or tip-weight.

C - Adjust nose-block thrusts to ensure model doesn't climb into a stall (add down-thrust) and doesn't roll in (add side-thrust) to negate these power-induced effects only.  The trims established in B above shouldn't change when under power... in theory!

D - Be methodical and analytical about what is going on at any stage, then only change one thing at a time and re-asses.  Any change in one variable could effect one or more of the others - e.g. a thicker motor will (i) normally move the CG back so you'll need more nose-weight to compensate, and (ii) increase the power so you'll need to increase side- and down-thrust to compensate.

That's the basics (hopefully correctly understood myself!), but bear in mind every model will differ.  I know nothing about trimming models which naturally prefer to fly in right circles (like the video you posted), as all my experience so far is based on left-handed circles!

Jon


Others might have a different view.

Also difficult to see your exact flying on a small screen, but if you post a few more close-up photos of the model (like 3-views, dead on from the front & rear, from above & below, from the side) then we can see your setup a little more clearly and be able to tie this in with your flying experiences.

Re rubber:  3/16" (which equates to 0.185") is probably a bit aggressive for such a small model.  If you can step down to 0.160 or 0.150 (with resultant decrease in torque, therefore in down/side-thrusts needed) you'll experience a gentler climb etc.  Once you've established the right thickness (power), you'll be able to experiment with the right length (duration).  If you don't have a continental supplier, then different thicknesses of rubber can be purchased from SAMS here in the UK:  http://www.samsmodels.com/products/rubber-lube/rubber-motor-strip (http://www.samsmodels.com/products/rubber-lube/rubber-motor-strip)




Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on April 30, 2018, 03:53:49 AM
Thank you Jack,

I will look for smaller rubber, but in my novice eyes she does not look overpowered.
I also think, again as a novice, that the basic trim is almost there.

What I want is a "safe" way to get longer flight times.
If I understand your explanation I just need a longer motor?
I mesured the loop and in fact she is 10", the distance noseblock rear peg is 8".
Do you think I can put in 12" or do I need an other approach?

Grt
free



Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: OZPAF on April 30, 2018, 05:14:43 AM
I noticed in your videos that it is spiralling in as the motor runs down. Looking at your photos you have up aileron on both wings. I would suggest removing the up aileron on the right wing and reducing it a bit on the left wing. This should help to keep the right wing up on the glide.
it's possible that it will now roll more to the left under power after you have done this. The solution would be to add a bit of right thrust to control the roll under power.
You will need to check the glide after altering the ailerons and also it may power stall again. Jack has covered this in his post and you may need to move the CG forward for the glide and possibly add some down thrust to handle any power stalls that may develop.
I would check this out before going to a longer motor. A longer lighter motor may make the model easier to trim as well as fly a bit longer.

John


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Jack Plane on April 30, 2018, 05:57:26 AM
The basic trim (for a right-hand circuit) appears to work in your flight videos, but I wonder why you need such considerable up "aileron" on both wings?!  This is clearly inefficient (wasting wing-area by destroying lift in those areas and fighting against the lift of the remaining areas), but is needed here because one or more of the following basic factors are all in play:

(i) the wing is fully under-cambered, so this will be producing a huge amount of lift at the model's normal slow/medium flight speeds;
(ii) there is little or no down-thrust in the nose-block/prop-bearing, so this is causing the model to pitch upwards under power;
(iii) the motor power (rubber thickness) is excessive (this increases the up-pitch under power);
(iv) there may be excessive incidence in the main wing (i.e. the angle the wing makes relative to the datum line of the fuselage) which will cause the nose to pitch up;
(v) similarly, there could be excessive negative incidence in the tailplane, also effectively pitching the nose up.

My guess from looking at your photos and your basic flight pattern in the videos (strong climb under power, steep glide at the end) is that it is mainly a combination of factors (ii) and (iii) above.

You can't change the high-lift wing-section, but at least first check the wing and tailplane incidences are exactly as the designer intended (check the plan and re-set at correct angle if necessary), then you can deal with the second two variables.

So proceed in this order:

AT HOME:

1. Check wing and tailplane incidences and correct if needed, and also check for basic unwanted wing and/or tailplane warps and steam out if necessary.
2. (a) Reduce the power by replacing the existing 0.185 (3/16") loop of rubber with a loop of say 0.150 (or two loops of 0.080 = 0.160).
    (b) At the same time increase the length of this new thinner rubber to increase duration; start with a loop that is say 1.5x or 1.8x the distance from the prop-shaft hook to the rear peg; note that, as appx 70% of the rubber is behind the CG, a longer loop will mean more nose-weight is needed to balance (but of course thinner rubber is lighter than thicker one), so get this all sorted out at home first.
   (c) You should also pre-stretch and lubricate the rubber before use, but I won't discuss that here.
3.  Assuming you currently have no down-thrust, add one or more thin ply shims to the top of the noseblock to create some basic down-thrust; a good starting-point is say 3 degrees; make up several extra strips of 0.4 and 0.8mm ply, each about 15mm x 5mm and take these with some CA or similar glue to the field for fine-tuning.
4.  Remove all up-aileron from the wings and all other existing trimming aids, e.g. tip-weight and/or rudder/elevator trim-tabs.
5.  Re-check model balance (both laterally and longitudinally) and add/remove nose-weight and tip-weight as needed.

AT THE FIELD (calm day if possible!):

1.  Wind on say 100-200 turns and check low-power glide (aim model 10-15 degrees downward on gentle launch); if the model flares up into a stall, add some nose-weight and re-test until the glide is fairly flat without any stall-like behaviour; if the model rolls one way or the other, experiment with up-aileron and/or tip-weight on the 'high' wing to cure (note that tip weight is not effected by airspeed whereas up-aileron is!).
2.  Now wind on 50% of max turns (where 100% = motor breaks and 80% is normal safe limit for repeated use of that loop of rubber) and launch as before;  if the model pitches up too much, then add more down-thrust;  if the model rolls excessively (which way will depend on your preferred circuit pattern, left or right) then add side-thrust to cure.
3.  Finally, start increasing the number of turns (first to 650x then to the max safe limit of 800x); the power-burst and initial part of the cruise-phase will be more powerful, so you might need to increase down- and side-thrust shims to compensate.

Unlike indoor flying (which is my main experience and where I normally fly a left-hand pattern and land with some turns left on the rubber), outdoors you'll want the model to glide in and land with no turns left on the rubber.  But whereas your current flights show a massive climb then a fairly quick transition to a steep diving glide, your future flights should show a moderate climb under the initial power-burst to a reasonable height, then a levelling off to a consistent height while the majority of the rubber gradually unwinds at 'cruise' power, then a gradual descent as the rubber runs out, then a not-too-steep glide with the prop freewheeling to land.

Hope this all makes sense!  Its only a distillation of what I've learnt the hard way, and maybe some older-hands will chip in with corrections to my understanding or add other useful advice.

Jon

PS: it is by no means perfect, but see if you can aim for this sort of flight (my first model three years ago, which shows the realism a scale model needs, rather than the ballistic climb typical of a competition duration model then a quick descent which is how your model is currently sort of flying): https://photos.app.goo.gl/sDttNW4LRk26mb4Q6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sDttNW4LRk26mb4Q6)

PPS: I've just noticed John's reply - we're saying very similar things!


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on April 30, 2018, 07:35:39 AM
Thank you for this good plan of attack.
I wil order some smaller rubber.

I have a bit of side trust and downtrust in the noseblock,
I drilled the hole not straight.

The two ailerons up are called for in the plan.
When I asked about that on S&T,
the response was that it makes for a more stable wing.
I wouldn’t  mind setting them level, but they are glued solid.
So I want to be shure before I start to cut them loose.

I am still convinced that the spiraling in is
because the crude way I made the turning cirkel tighter.
The extra weight on the wingtip from the clay is the culprit I think.

I will try and implement all the suggested steps and report back.
Good weather is still some day’s away.

Thanks again for your time, I’ll try to return the pleasure with a good flight.

Grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Andrew Darby on April 30, 2018, 07:58:10 AM
Hi,

First of all I would be as pleased as punch with those flights from such a simple little model outdoors.  I am a big fan and very fond of simple little sheet models like this one, but I will say that don't be too over optimistic as to how far you can push the performance.

In my experience these little models are generally over elevated, so you can keep piling the nose weight on to keep the nose down but that isn't the root of the problem.  These models were originally sold as toys and as such you really can't really too heavily on the angle between wing and tail plane as designed, even if it were stated on the plan. (which it isn't!)  You will be a bit on your own with that one.

When I trimmed out Jimbo's Bird Dog from the same series of models I gave up adding noseweight once the balance was at about 25% of the chord, then I added down elevator, as there was still stall under lower power and the "glide" - much as a brick glides!  :D

I second John's opinion that the spiralling in is due to the the left torque keeping things in check under power, and then disappearing as the power drops off. it looks to me like right thrust is required.  If you are lucky this will open out your right circle just a bit, and this might gain you some more altitude due to the lack of bank - but stay away from those trees  ;)

You have obviously made a super Job of this model, very nice to see it in action.  If this is early on in your pursuit of this hobby I would recommend another high wing monoplane of the stick and tissue variety for the for the next step.  I would recommend the Keil Kraft Cessna 140, and/or the Keil Kraft Auster Arrow.  Both of these are relatively easy to build and will be super light and fly very well.  I think the plans are in this gallery or if not almost certainly you will be able to find them on Outerzone.

Andrew

  


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on April 30, 2018, 01:47:43 PM
Thank you Anrew,

I am really pleased with my last flights (wich could be considered my first real flights), but since the reason for this plane is to learn about trimming I want to take it one step further.
And I am shure I will get more with the excellent coaching I am recieving.

I am honoured that you of all people replied to my topic because it is the Se5a that you designed for VMC that is the main reason for first trying to fly a less expensive (in build time) plane.
I went overboard on detailing the Se5a altough she still only wheigs 37 grammes ready to fly with rubber included. I can not thank you enough for designing such a nice easy kit still with the possibility of making a real nice scale subject.

I hope you indulge some pictures

grtz
free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Andrew Darby on April 30, 2018, 02:13:46 PM
Hi,

Great stuff, I did see that you were referring to an SE5a, but I didn’t realise that it was the VMC one!  What a lovely job you have made of it too.  Very nice! 

That weight is pretty good, it has lots of wing area and is a very stable ship (as was the real thing). Mine flew well as did Peter Fardell’s.

It is one of the easier WW1 types to trim, so you shouldn’t have too many problems as long as everything is flat, square and true...

I believe my prototype sits in a glass case in the shop at the air museum at Old Warden as a sales aid.  This is of course where the real thing it is based on resides... ;). Yours looks far closer to the real thing though!

Andrew



Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Jack Plane on April 30, 2018, 03:01:38 PM
That makes perfect sense Andrew... and will bear your comments in mind when helping the Kid with his Froglite Gladiator!

Free - really superb job on your SE5a!

Jon


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: OZPAF on April 30, 2018, 06:48:34 PM
You have made a very good effort on that SE5A SS.- very nice.
Good luck with your trimming and flying.

Quote
it looks to me like right thrust is required.  If you are lucky this will open out your right circle just a bit, and this might gain you some more altitude due to the lack of bank - but stay away from those trees  Wink

I think you may have meant left side thrust Andrew :) - not trying to be picky though :) :) Those trees also worry me - they are magnets for models :) :)


John


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on April 30, 2018, 07:11:57 PM
Thank you all, you are making me blush.
The Se5a is really my first wood build and
was never intended to have the finishing taken so far.
But once I started, the kit just enticed me to take it one step further
everytime I worked on her.
In fact she is build OOB, apart from the rigging and armement.
It’s that great a kit.
I made a lot of first time mistakes and wouldn’t mind building another one who could really be a scale plane.

Now on to the subject,
I understand that the frogflight piper might be limited just by design concept.
I will however try and implement what is described above and see how far we get.
In the mean time I also understand it’s time to build a more sophisticated design
to have a better chance at getting normal flight times.
I dont have any kielkraft plans of high wings at the moment but
I do have wood ready for a comper swift 18” (vmc lazer cut) and chilton dw 16” (plan clive gamble and handcut wood)
Is this feasable for a beginner to fly and trim, building does not scare me  and wich one of the two or do I invest in another kit?

Or do I just grow a pair and start trimming the se5a? He did behave nice in the first test. But I chickened out when the landing gear came off (because I made it removable) and tore some tissue.

I also have the 18” messerschmitt Andrew designed for VMC but after reading a bit I understand that low wing fighters of WWII are NOT for beginners.

All input is apreciated

Grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 01, 2018, 06:21:16 PM
Good evening gentleman,
I will report in depth tomorrow,
But I can already say that the ailerons in neutral made a big difference.
This flight is again with 3/16  rubber because after a first good attempt
with scissor ! stripped rubber. The band broke at 800 turns,
wich was to be expected from my haphazard stripping.
Good rubber is on his way.
I only recorded two flights but this will give you an idea.
My dad is launching the model, I did not trust him with my phone

https://youtu.be/XgLk6ECOtlU (https://youtu.be/XgLk6ECOtlU)

https://youtu.be/FuDqBX2kphA (https://youtu.be/FuDqBX2kphA)

So already a big thank you, this is going the right way and is not over yet.
Is a 1 minute flight in the making, I dont know but I will try hard.

Grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Jack Plane on May 02, 2018, 05:30:50 AM

... So already a big thank you, this is going the right way and is not over yet.
Is a 1 minute flight in the making, I dont know but I will try hard.


Excellent progress Spliff... and you express a most determined mindset!  If you carry on this way then (with the right model, something like the Kiel Kraft Auster Arrow or a similar stick and tissue high-wing monoplane) we expect to see you enter your first Kit Scale competition at Nijmegen in November!  ;D

In the meantime, your video seems to show that the eventual glide is to the left, but the power phase is driving the model in a straight line.  This means that you probably have a bit too much right-thrust at present, so see if you can reduce this very slightly with your current motor to get the model to circle gently to the left in all phases of flight.  (But also note that too tight a circuit means too much bank and therefore the loss of efficient vertical lift relative to the ground.)

When you later fit a different thinner motor, you'll have to tweak these thrust settings to compensate.

Well done!
Jon

PS - stay away from those hungry trees!  :o


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 04, 2018, 04:02:18 AM
Thank you Jack,


Sorry for the late reply but you will understand in a moment.

Mytical long grass excists, it's just a bear to get the weeds out of the propellor after retreval.

So tuesday's flights, the thinner motor really showed it's potential on the single 600 turn flight I did,
I had the ailerons neutral and she climbed gently altough in a right turn and after the motor ran out of power she spiraled in (right handed)
Then when winding to 800 turns, the motor broke.
So I changed again for the 3/16" rubber and that is the flight you see above, with my dad launching.
After that my father wanted to go home and I was left without a stooge.

I managed to wind another few flights on my own, clenching the plane between my thigh's unable to keep track of count, until I knocked out the struds on one wing.
At that point I called it a day.

Still in a good mood from flying, at home I started ordering around the web like there was no tomorrow.
In my haste I ordered VMC' s Piper 140 instead of the Kielkraft, I only noticed two day's later  ::)
I also have all common sizes of FAA rubber coming from SAM's

And then wednesday disaster struck, while cleaning the shop to start building, I knocked the Piper on the ground and (missing his struds) broke the wing half an inch from the previous breaking point. It could have been easely repaired, but chose not to. Thinking that since it's the right wing and we are aiming for Left Left. A twice repaired wing would be to heavy to have normal results.

But fear not, I cut of the remains and cleaned up the glue joints.
Searched for a decent piece of 1/32 balsa and just cut new wings.
This time I didn't cut the ailerons loose.
If it needs anything I will glue a little wedge

They came out better than the first pair and seem both sturdier and lighter

Also had to repair and adapt the peg mount in the rear, it had started to crack after the motor burst and needed a slightly smaller hole for an aluminium tube.

I never weighed the first version but this incarnation comes out at 24 grammes, I still need to check balance but that won't change much.

I desperatly need to finish my winding stooge, the only thing left to make is a steel pin to put the aluminium tube on.

So, I will report back on how she fly's with the new wings and hopefully we are not to far off from where we started.
Altough I understand that this new wing will make it like it's a new plane, or not?

Until then
Grtz free



Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 04, 2018, 04:05:17 AM
More pictures


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 04, 2018, 05:23:30 AM
Could not help myself,
I took a little break at work and tried the piper,
She ROG’s on +- 100 handturns and flies like before.
So I will need less right trust, she tends to spiral in to the right.
But now I will wait for my rubber order to arrive and see from there.
At least she recovered from her wing surgery and
I can keep trying for a one minute flight.

Untill then
Grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: OZPAF on May 04, 2018, 05:50:58 AM
Good luck with it SS. Is it spiralling in to the right on the glide or under power?

Now before I go any further - you need to decide whether you wish to fly to the left under power and on the glide or to the right on power and the glide. There is another alternative but we will leave that for the moment. your decision will also be influenced by which way the model tends to fly.

If you wish to go left then follow Jack's advice. However if you decide that it is best to go right then I would offer the following

 If it spirals in on the glide and you wish to keep going to the right - then first you should add a small wedge or Gurney Flap to the right wing about 2/3 along the wing panel. I would guess about 2mm thick by about 18mm long. You need to check it by gliding the model with only say 30-50 hand turns. If it turns/rolls hard to the left then reduce the length of the wedge by a couple of mm at a time. if it still spirals to the right add 2-3mm extra.
Try it with more turns - 100-150 and see how it starts to climb. If it rolls to the left add some right side thrust till it assumes a nice steady climb with a fairly open turn to the right.

This assumes that you have only enough rudder to give a nice open right turn. Too much right rudder will also help it to spiral in on the glide so be careful with the rudder - it is quite powerful under power.

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you.

John


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on May 04, 2018, 08:49:37 AM
     Hi Free - good luck with that one minute mark    :)  , pinnacle of success   :D  , and crowning achievement     ;D   of duration flight with rubber powered Free Flight balsa model airplanes.  I only got it once - it was very elusive.   Your winding stooge looks really high tech and well thought out - good one!

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 04, 2018, 09:25:28 AM
The stooge is a design by paul bradley,
a few nights of arts and crafts and you got something nice.
It came out so nice I want to make a case for it.

I got the plan here http://www.parmodels.com/a-winding-stooge.html (http://www.parmodels.com/a-winding-stooge.html)

grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Rich Adams on May 04, 2018, 12:03:06 PM
Spliff,
You're doing a great job on trimming, learning, and taking advice from a bunch of seasoned guys. It's showing in your flights. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned, I think, is that the freewheeling propeller adds some right turn tendency to the model in the glide. The bigger the prop, the bigger the tendency for it to turn right. In some cases, it is enough to put the airplane into the right hand spiral dive. Some people set up their airplanes with right thrust, a bit of left wing down aileron, and left rudder. The idea is to develop a left hand climb and cruise pattern. When the rubber runs out and the prop wants to pull it to the right, the left rudder helps to flatten out the glide.

Keep on working at this. You are close to getting that 60 sec flight!!  :D


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: vintagemike on May 05, 2018, 03:34:51 AM
That Comper Swift pinned to your board flies extremely well, there is also a tutorial on how to build and fly it on Mike Stuart,s website. Well worth a look


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 05, 2018, 05:09:06 AM
Quote
That Comper Swift pinned to your board flies extremely well, there is also a tutorial on how to build and fly it on Mike Stuart,s website. Well worth a look

It was intended for my father, but after two failed attempts of building the fragile fuselage it came back to me. The tutorial excists also in  Dutch by Wout Moerman.
I was ready to start building when I broke the wing of the Piper and that had to be repaired first.

Quote
is that the freewheeling propeller adds some right turn tendency to the model in the glide.

After repairing the wing I removed my crude freeweeling thingy and balanced the prop. In one of the following videos you'll see the prop come to an absolute stop.
Meaby that is not good, I don't know. The propellor is now thight on the shaft, it got a bit hot while desoldering the washer. Do I need to replace that?

So, the evening sessions with the new wing, I only got half an hour and I realy need more time to work orderly and precise.

First try of the winding stooge on a temporary wooden stick. Notice the knot in the rubber, I thought it was the joining knot of the loop but after inspection it was just a knot, how dit it get there?

https://youtu.be/I91tpTKPSxk (https://youtu.be/I91tpTKPSxk)


First, I want to excuse myself, I do want to follow all the advise given, but sometimes in the field I mix things up and sometimes I' am to excited to try things in an orderly fashion.
But this will be better when I start to take my time to test things properly. I also should bring a notepad to verify things and make notes, next time ...
It's all very new and I am just a tad to excited to be meticulous.  ::)

First power flight with the new wing, I have seen RC planes do that  ;D

https://youtu.be/rwDgmN8w0yQ (https://youtu.be/rwDgmN8w0yQ)

This was 600 turns,  I added a touch of left up aileron after that .
these are the remaining turns

https://youtu.be/oHrcGNe3IAM (https://youtu.be/oHrcGNe3IAM)

Then up to 700 turns, I removed some downtrust when trying to remove some right trust.
On launching same thing as the first time, is this bad launching? The wind was calm but there where occasional bursts

https://youtu.be/duoONaxYwms (https://youtu.be/duoONaxYwms)

Put in the lost winds and tryed again, apperantly to much downtrust got removed, but I like the acrobatic stall recovery.

https://youtu.be/LuX1b7fpeGA (https://youtu.be/LuX1b7fpeGA)

Last flight of the day is 750 turns, I crushed the balsa wedge a little bit  for al little more downtrust.

https://youtu.be/n0YXQAcrrs0 (https://youtu.be/n0YXQAcrrs0)

I hope I can go back to the field today and take my time to really do it step by step. But most likely then I will have no videos to show.
I cannot be concentrated and film at the same time and when my loveley wife does the filming I cannot stay to long, I don't want her to get bored or cold  ;D.

Hoping my packages arrive soon, because I think a lot of trouble will be resolved with thinner rubber.

Untill then

Grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: cvasecuk on May 05, 2018, 05:20:42 AM
If I had a small all sheet rubber powered model that flew like that I would be very pleased with my efforts.
Ron


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: OZPAF on May 05, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
The trim on that last flight is very close. Certainly make a careful note of those settings.

Quote
After repairing the wing I removed my crude freeweeling thingy and balanced the prop. In one of the following videos you'll see the prop come to an absolute stop.
Meaby that is not good, I don't know. The propellor is now thight on the shaft, it got a bit hot while desoldering the washer. Do I need to replace that?

I would recommend that you do when you can.A freewheeling prop will improve your glide, which in that last video was good.

When soldering washers near the plastic prop - put a piece of wet bond paper on the shaft between between the prp and washer. It will help to protect the prop.

John


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: LASTWOODSMAN on May 05, 2018, 09:33:11 AM
Nice videos Free !!   And a great winding stooge.    :o 8)    They are the greatest things ever invented for Free Flight - the fastest way to get your miniature aircraft back in the air!
Keep 'em flying!

LASTWOODSMAN
Richard


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 25, 2018, 08:40:33 AM
Hello gentleman,

sorry for my long absence.

I dind't really make much progress, the change in rubber made a huge difference and is the way to go but the aircraft kept spiraling in to the right.
So I fitted a tab to the rudder (left)  and it seems to even out the spiraling.
When I tested this I broke the motor on the second wind 1000 turns on .155 diameter rubber 12" loop.
I didnt have a spare motor with me and since then the weather hasn't been coöperative.
Untill today, at lunch I went out and tried a new motor, same specks as before but well lubed.

I only did two flights, 700 turns and 800 turns before I had to return to work, somebody has to pay the bills.

First flight 700 turns did well +- 30 sec flight ROG, she still has a tendency to spirall but I think my frozen propellor saved the day.

https://youtu.be/R4DCW39SttY (https://youtu.be/R4DCW39SttY)

Second flight 800 turns, while I was filming I did a bad release, but with the rest of the turns she did a nice slow flight untill she hit the only pole in the field.
I like the little touch and go in the beginning. Sorry for the absence of the subject in the majority of the footage but it gives an idea.

https://youtu.be/4XhSp5y5ze4 (https://youtu.be/4XhSp5y5ze4)

So, can I put in even more left rudder to completly eradicate the spiraling or will that only bring more trouble?
I'll try to put a picture of the tab this evening.

Until then
grtz free



Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 25, 2018, 10:58:39 AM
The rudder tab, can I make this bigger or different to completly cure the right spiraling?

grtz
free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Jack Plane on May 26, 2018, 02:32:07 PM
Not sure that - without being there - I can help much more with the overall balance of trimming.

But I'd suggest that you replace your rudder trim-tail with a trim-tab, i.e. a tab that is say 8mm wide and 20mm high, which would have a more even effect across the rudder, whereas your current tab is more of a streamer producing turbulence...?


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Andrew Darby on May 26, 2018, 04:04:03 PM
I agree, a longer tab would be good...

Andrew


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on May 26, 2018, 04:49:06 PM
Quote
ot sure that - without being there - I can help much more with the overall balance of trimming.

Now is not the time to come over to the UK but I may be in the Devon area first weeks of July.

“Have planes will travel”   ;)

In the mean time I went out two times today, no footage.
After a launch in to much wind, she came down hard on her tail and
the rudder broke right on the hinge line,
so taking advantage of that accident I removed the tabs and
was able to put the slightest of left in the rudder.
But on further inspection I also found a crack in the right leading edge and
Coming home to do repairs I also managed to break the left stab in half.
After the repairs were done I went back out and now she makes wide left circles.
I had to remove some downtrust as she did not climb well.
600 turns gave me 2 nice circles at head height, she than made a rather unfortunate landing and
broke the nosemount. Easely repaired and I hope to film her tomorrow.
She is starting to loock rather beaten but
she already gave me heaps of fun and
I am starting to understand the changes happening whilst trimming.
And all that from a plane who cost me 2€ in wood and a prop.
I am a happy camper.

Also a big thank you for all the good advise and the general warm welcome,
You guy’s have a very nice community and I am greatfull that I found this place.

Happy flying

Grtz free


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: Andrew Darby on May 26, 2018, 06:59:09 PM
Hey Grtz,

I like your philosophy, that’s one thing I love about this hobby, a small amount of money for lots of fun!  ;D

One other thing is this forum and the people on it.

BTW Sorry to read about your SE5a...

Andrew



Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: OZPAF on May 26, 2018, 07:46:32 PM
Yes - Andrew is right. It's the most helpful bunch of modellers I have come across on a Forum, and it makes a lot of difference.

I hope you do meet up with some of these fellows - I would like to as well - however I'm just a little further away :).

It seems you never stop learning - as aero modelling covers such a wide spectrum - from skills to knowledge of flight and all spread over numerous disciplines. Enjoy it. It's been my passion for longer than I would care to admit - not quite as long as Hepcat John though. :)

John


Title: Re: Frogflight Piper Pacer (16") needs trimming and motor suggestions
Post by: spliffsecond on June 01, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
I finally repaired the nose of the Piper, I am now waiting on the weather to coöperate.

grtz free